Is Integrity a Privilege?

[Trebuchet]

My dear friend (ESTJ?) has a 15-year-old daughter (INTP, I think), who failed a composition test. She was supposed to write about the "most important" something, I don't know what, and spent all but the last 5 minutes trying to decide what that was.

Due to conflicting school requirements, she couldn't make the appointment her teacher set up to discuss it. My friend was very upset because her daughter wouldn't send an e-mail apologizing to the teacher for missing the appointment. The girl said she wouldn't apologize because she hadn't done anything wrong.

I had to agree with the student. Apologizing when it isn't your fault is just wrong. I left a job after following orders to apologize to someone like that.

Now, my friend argued that if I had to keep that job to support my daughter, I'd have brownnosed as much as it took, to keep off the street. She said "Integrity is a privilege, and you can't afford it when you need to get in someone's good graces." I agreed that desperate times call for desperate measures, but denied that high school should be desperate times.

So, if you made it through my long premise for this question, do you think integrity is a privilege? Is it something some people, like high school students or employees, just can't afford? Or can we maintain our integrity and still get along? Personally, I can't think of a single instance where I didn't deeply regret violating my principles.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

What an interesting question!

I would have to answer with a qualified yes. There are times when you just can't afford your principles and you have to be willing to at least bend them if not outright break them. Sure, you will feel regret but it would be regret that you had to do it rather than did do it. If you are responsible for others (family mainly) then you have to do whatever it takes to ensure their well being. Your priciples then become a luxury.

Now in the example above, I'd say this isn't one of those times. Not because we're talking high school but because of the specifics of this case. There could very well be a circumstance where some principle need be put on hold in order to graduate or something. It happens more often out in the real world of work.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

*scratches head* I'm kind of confused. We're talking about the INTP daughter, not the ESTJ mom?

This: "Integrity is a privilege, and you can't afford it when you need to get in someone's good graces."
also confuses me. What is "it"? "You can't afford integrity when you need to get in someone's good graces"? You mean sacrificing integrity to get into someone's good graces?

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I don't think that's a great way of putting it. Integrity comes from yourself, it is not something that comes from society, like we would suppose a privilege to be.

You ask whether it is ever justified to lapse in integrity? No, it's not. Integrity is an broader word than you guys seem to be using it. If you lie to prevent a murder, you have not compromised yourself in any way, nor violated your integrity. If you have to "keep that job to support your daughter," then brownnosing is justified. Thus, it doesn't violate your integrity.

Whether you agree with my definition of "integrity" or not, it is (as I understand) the more common, and also the more useful.

As for this specific situation, the student is right that an apology is not required. However, an explanation certainly is. She should send an email.

 

[Trebuchet]

*scratches head* I'm kind of confused. We're talking about the INTP daughter, not the ESTJ mom?

This: "Integrity is a privilege, and you can't afford it when you need to get in someone's good graces."
also confuses me. What is "it"? "You can't afford integrity when you need to get in someone's good graces"? You mean sacrificing integrity to get into someone's good graces?

Sorry to be confusing, Reverse Transcriptase. I was talking to the mom (the daughter was at home doing homework) and, yes, she thinks you have to be ready to sacrifice your integrity to get into the good graces of people in authority.

I agree with Inappropriate Behavior, that if you are responsible for someone else's safety, or in a completely powerless position, you do what you have to do. Physical survival comes first.

 

[nickgray]

to sacrifice your integrity to get into the good graces of people in authority

Nope. There are some extreme cases, of course, where you have little choice but to do it, yet in majority of cases I would advise not to sacrifice one's integrity, especially to please someone.

 

[Tyria]

Priviledge is not a word that comes to mind when I think of integrity in the modern context.

That said, I don't think that you have to sacrifice integrity to be successful. Hard work, dedication, and good decisions are more important for success.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Okay... thanks for the explanation. I think you guys are getting a little too huffed up about integrity.

The teacher is a fuckwad. When it comes to stupid authority, I am absolutely willing to play their game to get what I want. I know it's kinda INTJ-ish of me, of working inside the system to get what I want, but I'm starting to think that sometimes our principles just get in the way of things. Do we constantly need to butt heads with society rules of hierarchy, institutions and seniority?

However:
When it comes to my close friends, and people that I respect, I do feel that my integrity is important. I'm straight-forward and honest about how I see the situation- even if they don't like to hear it or it's not good news, it is good for them to know that I am an upfront, honest and critically thinking person.

 

[nickgray]

Do we constantly need to butt heads with society rules of hierarchy, institutions and seniority?

Someone has to Otherwise the world would be even crappier place than it is now.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Someone has to Otherwise the world would be even crappier place than it is now.

lol, this is making me thing, do INTPs have a White Knight streak in them? A strong moral compass (granted, it is highly individualized) that they will let guide them, no matter what walls they break down.
(I'd really like to see more thoughts about White Knight INTPs. The rest of my post is existential blathering.)

=============
I really like demonstrating the meaningless of so many things.... my favorite philosopher Terence McKenna had a great talk about virtual reality. He died in 2000. He said that human's modern evironment is extremely artificial, it's been crafted by archetects, engineers, interior decorators, politicians and your mom. THAT is artificial, THAT is what virtual reality is!

A light is a one wavelength, so we stop. When it's another wavelength we go. IT'S JUST LIGHT! But we attach so much meaning to it.

The best example is a Chess board. It's a grid, with different pieces. It could be random! but no, we have these imaginary rules for how the pieces move.

 

[nickgray]

He said that human's modern evironment is extremely artificial

Nah, it's always been artificial. I guess it depends on point of view, but if you dig deeper you either have to acknowledge that either it's always been a "virtual reality" of sorts (then you'd have to deal with the whole concept of VR) or to redefine the word artificial (in the context of the environment).

I think it's pointless to ponder about "artificiality" of things, it'll always bring you to the idea that we're nothing more than a bunch of particles, and since this idea is kinda an obvious thing - what's the point of assigning the artificiality parameter to certain things and concepts?


*I don't know if what I wrote makes any sense, but... *

 

[Darby]

lol, this is making me thing, do INTPs have a White Knight streak in them? A strong moral compass (granted, it is highly individualized) that they will let guide them, no matter what walls they break down.

why not make a new thread or whatnot? I would be interested to hear ideas, in fact I would make it, but i'm not usually a forum person and i don't know how such things work.




as far as values or integrity goes, I generally tell them why I didn't do it, often because i just didn't feel like it(which always makes them mad, but lying is worse), i would probably apologize, but at that point i feel it was clearly a decision i made with a clear mind, and therefore i have no reason to apologize, they know how i made my decision. apologizing is only useful or meaningful when the wrong wasn't intentional, and probably could have been avoided.

as far as not breaking integrity, im assuming we are talking about personal integrity, you should never have to give up personal integrity, if there is a situation where there is conflicting interest, make a decision based upon integrity, and then see if there are any changes that need to be made to your ideals, so when it happens again, there is no uncomfortable sense of wrongdoing

 

[Darby]

Nah, it's always been artificial. I guess it depends on point of view

i think what he's saying is that almost everything we deal with is altered by us in some way, processed, so that by the time it reaches us, there is very little of what it was originally, and is now "artificial" rather than "natural"

i don't know if i interpreted that right, but i tried

 

[Kuu]

lol, this is making me thing, do INTPs have a White Knight streak in them? A strong moral compass (granted, it is highly individualized) that they will let guide them, no matter what walls they break down.
(I'd really like to see more thoughts about White Knight INTPs. The rest of my post is existential blathering.)

Yes, I think that underneath all those 597 layers of cynicism lies a core of idealism. When I was young and naive, I used to fantasize about being a martyr for some ideal. Now, forget I ever said that. I now shall content myself with being a mad, starving artist. I just can't play by the rules. They're stupid, they're wrong, and they perpetuate stupidity and wrongfulness. This is unacceptable.

He said that human's modern evironment is extremely artificial, it's been crafted by archetects, engineers, interior decorators, politicians and your mom. THAT is artificial, THAT is what virtual reality is!

Yes, I've been saying this a lot too. The history, and essence, of humanity is a drive to artificiality But what has this got to do with the thread?

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

people on this forum really need to stop linking to tv tropes

 

[nickgray]

i think what he's saying is that almost everything we deal with is altered by us in some way, processed, so that by the time it reaches us, there is very little of what it was originally, and is now "artificial" rather than "natural"

Hmm... is that bad in some way? We have the ability to listen to top quality performances of music in our homes. What about video? Planet Earth, for example, features many places and situations one almost certainly will ever see with their own eyes. And etc., etc., I think I made my point

 

[Darby]

Hmm... is that bad in some way? We have the ability to listen to top quality performances of music in our homes. What about video? Planet Earth, for example, features many places and situations one almost certainly will ever see with their own eyes. And etc., etc., I think I made my point

I don't believe that distinction between good/bad was originally made, but I can agree with you that it is not necessarily bad, although as always when i use the terms "good" and "bad" I have to make a note as to what the "end goal" is, otherwise there is no way to distinguish the two, if it is to create new ideas, and turn them into tangible reality, then the artificial life is "good", but if the goal is to retain our initial nature, and do so without the processing and refining of the world around us, then the artificial life is "bad"

I think this is where people start to dislike each other at a fundamental level, because we start to distinguish between two opposites, and assume that "if your not with me, your against me"

EDIT: I just realized this was the Integrity thread.....why are we discussing the artificial and natural world here?

 

[Kuu]

people on this forum really need to stop linking to tv tropes

I'm truly sorry. I can't help myself.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Welcome to the tangential nature of INTPs, Darby

Yeah, what I meant by the artificiality of the world is not good or bad. Besides, nickgray, what are good and bad? They're artificial human concepts.
(I've been trying not to use 'good' or 'bad' because in addition to being artificial, they're extremely subjective. Besides, it's good for the writer in me to find a more descriptive adjective to use.)

I just want people to recognize that they are working within an artificial environment. We craft almost everything around us. Heck, even in our forest parks, we often have groomed fields and paths laid out. I have a forest near my house, it's almost complete wilderness, but it still has paths running through it.

I guess I want people to recognize it a little, and become a little enlightened. Nick, I think you recognize it.

one white knight thread coming right up! http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=125895

 

[Agent Intellect]

Is something artificial just because humans made it? That seems a strange criteria for distinguishing natural and artificial - especially since other animals alter their environments as well.

As far as integrity, I would probably replace that with 'principles'. Either way, it's definitely circumstantial. We are all slaves in that we are indebted to other people - bosses, families, friends, the government - but in this case it's our principles that they own. I find the government to be a corrupt, lying, unholy syndicate of douche bags and fools, but I still pay my taxes (well, I don't prevent my money from being taken as taxes).

Nobody can live solely on their own principles because if everybody did that, society would cease to function (no matter how malfunctional it may be functioning). Of course, when we are indebted to someone else (relationships, children, co-workers and bosses etc), then we give up some of that control of our principles - and in that sense, I would say that they are a privilege.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I run into this kind of idea a lot, that 'integrity' and 'principles' are all well and good, but at the end of the day sometimes you've just got to do XYZ.

I think this is semantically inappropriate and unnecessary.

Ack I have to leave on short notice, I'll continue this post laterz.

EDIT:
Morality is all-encompassing. Morality is 'what one ought to do.' It's semantically impossible to say that 'I ought to do foo but foo is immoral.' Morality goverrns specific rules (which might be called exceptions) as well as general rules (which might be called rules).

"Nobody can live solely on their own principles." I disagree. If this is true, then you have not defined "principles" right.

 

[Trebuchet]

Whether you agree with my definition of "integrity" or not, it is (as I understand) the more common, and also the more useful.

As for this specific situation, the student is right that an apology is not required. However, an explanation certainly is. She should send an email.

I do like your definition of integrity, and you solution (an e-mail with an explanation, and maybe a request to reschedule) was the same as mine.

EDIT: Another reason for not violating your principles/integrity/morality/ethics is that, once you do, where do you draw the line? What if the teacher wanted a kiss, instead of an apology?

 

[Firehazard159]

Sorry to be confusing, Reverse Transcriptase. I was talking to the mom (the daughter was at home doing homework) and, yes, she thinks you have to be ready to sacrifice your integrity to get into the good graces of people in authority.

I agree with Inappropriate Behavior, that if you are responsible for someone else's safety, or in a completely powerless position, you do what you have to do. Physical survival comes first.

Edited to include your relevant edit in my edited post of editedness:

EDIT: Another reason for not violating your principles/integrity/morality/ethics is that, once you do, where do you draw the line? What if the teacher wanted a kiss, instead of an apology?

Does this make anyone else think of Sparta, where the Politician effectively rapes the main Spartans wife and then betrays her in front of the court of law thing?

I think it is a luxury to be able to have your integrity fully intact, but I don't think one should sacrifice it, if that makes sense?

Kind of like having 'rights' is a luxury, due to our society being civilized, but one should fight for ones rights (integrity) rather than sacrifice it, kind of thing.

 

[ohrtonz]

She could have still wrote an email why she didn't show (or couldnt show) up without actually apologizing. It's not her fault, yes. but Just not going to an appointment where someone is expecting you may cause someone to wonder. This is probably as detrimental as me scheduling something with a friend and not showing up. (not a big deal?). But I would get such a headache trying to write an email like this... "It's unfortunate I can't go" "Do to blah blah I couldn't come can we schedule another time?" or something.....

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

I think that integrity is always an option... as far as effort goes... but in certain cultures it's just not going to get you very far. For example, you might have a choice between integrity and your life. It seems to me that integrity is not a privilege, but good results after acting on that integrity could be considered to be.