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Intuitives are social.

nanook

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I say Intuition is comprehension of process. What need is there for evolution to bring about a form of intelligence that understands process?

I say social life.

The process of nature is not as manipulable and therefore of much less relevance to our kind. Tertiary and Inferior understanding or process should be sufficient, so why create intuitive types? Not intuition, intuition can not even be avoided, because process is an inherent trait of intelligence itself, and intelligence is inherently designed to become self-aware or self-concerned, but why create types who are entirely optimized for intuition?

I think intuitives are optimized and therefore called to be social, or rather meta-social, manipulative of social process. And so are thinking intuitives.

They are politicians or philosophers, in the broadest sense. Intuitive feeling types are similar but i would say they are motivator and psychologists, to provide an analogy to these two simplifying buzzwords. (Of course i should come up with 8 distinct buzzwords, to do justice to how intuitive types are social)

But my point is, that intuitive thinkers are socially creative or manipulative, in their own way.

I don't mean the word manipulative to sound evil, but i have to use some word to make the distinction between people who are socially creative or manipulative and those who are simply social, adopting creations or manipulations implemented by others or even being down right conservative, adopting a way once and sticking to it, if possible.

Those are sensors. And they are creative and manipulative about concrete methods. Which are applied to concrete reality, for the most part. And hence not to social life.

I have to combine the words creative and manipulative, because no one can be inventing exclusively.

So i want to challenge the concept that NTs are born techies. IT wizards and the like.

Sure, understanding of process becomes very important in modern technologies. And understanding the general principles of such technology may come more easily to intuitives. But not cooking up the concrete details of technology.

For modern technology, Intuitives and Sensors have to work together. Old school technology can be entirely dominated by sensors.

I believe sensors may still be the major inspiration for the archetype of the code wizards, hackers and engineers. I do not believe that sensors are limited to dealing with hardware, for instance. Whether objects are solid or imaginary, as in object oriented programming, they are sensory objects as long as they are comprehension of static aspects of reality, like boundaries or values. And they are intuitive if they are comprehension of process, such as operators.

I always challenge the believe that sensors are stupid less evolved versions of intuitives, for two reasons, one: i do see capable sensors, people with good brains and bodies, two: typology is in principle not a stage model, so if S and N would be two stages, typology would be all wrong.

But there really appears to be a difference in political attitudes of sensors and intuitives.

I believe sensors are associated with 'backwards-views' for a reason, not just because of the common mistyping bias of mbti (wherein intelligence is considered to be a sign of intuition).

And there is solid evidence that political attitudes represent different stages of development of some particular line of intelligence.

Conservative politics aim to create a primitive less evolved society with crude rules. Some liberal and most leftist politics create more evolved, more complex and integrated societies with more refined self-regulating principles.

And i believe the reason for that difference is the social intelligence of intuitives, not emotional intelligence, but broad intelligence about social process.

One could say intuitives have a strong line of political intelligence and sensors have a weak line, since their intuition is only tertiary or inferior, albeit absolutely present.
 

nanook

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i'm straying off a little bit for the topic, but i provide some personal subjective background on why i see things that way.

i currently hold the believe that i am an NF and in the back of my mind an ST type. (FiNe-SiTe)

i can deal with singles pixels of a graphic design or with details of script code, but i can not handle the more complex mathematic aspects of some advanced coding, because these involve process (operators, operations) and my thinking does not wrap around process.

my thinking is limited to sequential interactive work with static data. - this appears to be SiTe thinking. i am best at fixing a bicycle and i will learn everything about computer software by goal oriented trial and error.

i do not understand how flows of money progress through wallstreet and i don't even want to hear about it, it strokes my attitude the wrong way - i consider this to be another example of lacking NT thinking.

i understand processes that are relevant to the world of feeling, that means i understand psychology and the broad strokes of social life. my thinking wraps around my feeling, so there is an indirect thinking about psychological process, which is not too manipulative of emotion, mostly seeking understanding.

this i consider to be NF understanding. it's not even helpful in real world politics, but it does give me a good judgement about what politics are progressive and what are backwards, it makes me an idealist.

it's my experience that NT types have poor insight into psychology (NF style), albeit they would like to have it, due to their N preference. perhaps they have their own brand of psychology (maybe neurolinguist programming, a wisdom of what can be manipulated as opposed to NF wisdom of what has to be accepted)

and SF types do not only lack good insight into psychology (NF style), but are actually offended when processes are revealed, because this takes away from the factual or static realities of feeling, upon which they wish to rely with complete confidence. they would sooner accept thinking comments than intuitive comments, in context of their psychological world.

i also observe that NT types have the patience to sit through long discussions of political processes and connections and implications.

and that ST types will only disturb such big-picture analysis with their concern for particular facts, which they are unable to put into perspective.

i can't say i would know how to put facts into perspective, because my N lacks the T to work it out, but without thinking about it, my N allows me to see, when sensors get lost in concern (T) with S.

I believe ST types may be the stereotypical lobbyist, who finds nothing wrong with driving a single point as if it mattered more than anything. i reject that as an intuitive, even though my shadow is ST. (these cops are all murderers, right?!)

NT types have SF as alternate state powers. SF is organic, liquid, round and factual, self-justifying (can appear meaningless). it can be artistic (beautiful, not conceptually loaded) and musical. this paragraph doesn't fit into this post at all, but fuck it.
 

Black Rose

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I think it can be described like this:

Hardness - Softness
Motion - Static

SF is static and soft
ST is Static and Hard
NF is in Motion and Soft
NT is in Motion and Hard

I am INTJ so hardness and softness are balanced but always in motion. It can also be that motion and static is balanced but hardness or softness dominates in others.

This is the bare bones, i and unsure of how extroversion or introversion are involved.
 

Black Rose

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sidenote: Forum Text is static and hard but can induce motion and softness
 

nanook

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to conceptualize thinking as hard and feeling as soft is in and of itself a sensing perspective upon feeling and thinking. one could also conceptualize feeling as warm and thinking as cold. these are both static impressions, sensing perspectives.

to conceptualize feeling as associative and thinking as differentiating would be an intuitive perspective on the matter.

i am not happy about that choice of words though. i struggle because there is a severe lack of vocabulary to express perceptions like this.

feeling relates in inclusive manner, it embraces, to a degree and on point, while it's boundaries remain undefined, fading out somewhere. at least NF feeling.

thinking begins with the boundaries, it pushes around. but this might be ST thinking.

i guess in the context of process feeling is motivating and thinking is initiating. motivation is inclusive, a wave that carries. thinking is decisive, dividing.

i wonder if looking at a process of consciousness like that is Ni, Ne or simply N.
 

QuickTwist

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Another INTP who is too lost to be firm...
 

Analyzer

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Very interesting. I identify more with trying to understand philosophical/social subtleties than anything technological. I enjoy the theoretical ideas surrounding technological processes but get bored quickly with anything related to implementation or static problem solving like you say.
 

vlassicisgood

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Being conservative has nothing to do with N or S. At all. It's just that progressivism is well... progressive, into -what progressives want-. An intuitive conservative is quite quite special indeed. They see right sided ideas implemented to create a future society that they consider better just like leftists. There are plentiful conservative ideas that would very very much change society and that aren't actually "conserving" anything, that would just quite well change society and flip things in other directions. The intuitive conservative sees this and sees a better outcome in it for whatever personal value reasons. It has absolutely nothing to do with political affiliation outside of that progressives have more of a blast on the media, and make themselves seem like the party of new ideas, so more "new idea" people flock to it. Of course... they aren't really new ideas at all... but that's a political discussion and completely off topic. Writing the entire right off as unable to see their hand in front of their face is a bit, eh. Maybe an intuitive takes a look at where these leftist ideas go and -doesn't like it-, so chooses conservatism as the lesser of two evils? So on and so forth. And let's not even mention how many N libertarians there probably are....
 

Brontosaurie

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i agree that conservatives and commie-leftists don't typically differ in imaginativity.

classical liberalism (core ideology, not the habit of using it for apologetics) pretty much requires N leanings, as does anarchism.
 

nanook

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i agree with much of what you say, vlassssomething, but it seems the real point of my argument was lost on you.

we all see that intuitives are statistically associated with progressive ideas, this is not up for debate and exceptions are not relevant. what i discuss is HOW this can be true, without the assumtion that intuitives are more evolved by definition, which they can not be, since every type is born at stage 1.


a concern with the consequences of action or with having impact on life by acting is what sensation is all about. of course sensors want to change the world, often more so than intuitives, who may for example resonate with romanticisnign american indian harmony with nature or similar. the processes that intuition is tuned in, in my view, is the naturalistic background currents of reality, of entities, of circumstances. this includes the evolution of society and here conservatism, meaning traditional values, are placed in the past of humanity, they are not what is alive right now, they are seen as moving in circles only, as much as they may be pushing hard in that regard. but intuitive perception can include perception of countless other currents and perceiving them does not imply wanting them, but understanding them. and a person who wants to enforce traditional values outside of his own lifestyle, in a time where humanity is facing death from being attached to old ways, is clearly demonstrating a lack of understanding, of direction.
 

vlassicisgood

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I almost typed a long response to this, but changed my mind. I'll boil it down instead. The exceptions are not relevant -why- exactly? They have a lower IQ? No. I simply believe you're drawing one connection where 50 million connections could be brought up except for that one. Those exceptions debunk your entire argument and show that you're simply pushing an ideological viewpoint and saying that anyone who doesn't agree demonstrates a "clear lack of understanding". Simply saying something is not relevant when it's a fact does not make it irrelevant. You dressed it up well, but eh. Perceiving them doesn't necessarily imply wanting them, but it can. You're pushing for a superiority of intuitive thinkers, and also superiority of leftist ideology. Using a way people process information as a soap box to lead into a political argument. There is no connection, the exceptions prove that there is no connection. At least not -that- connection. Perhaps something to do with media outlets dressing up the left to seem like the party of new ideas? NF's that get their emotions played on? That'd be emotional and nothing to do with intuition. I see a lot of fluff here. It's all much more complicated than that. Tons of connections as to why could be drawn but it wouldn't be related to IQ or intuition -because- of those exceptions that you said were irrelevant. More to do with how the ideas are presented to society in general. Lots of bias in the whole thing as well. Guess this did get kinda long but eh. Just my opinion no offense meant.
 
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