Introverts vs Extroverts and appearance vs reality

[no one particular]

Extraverts are mainly concerned with outward appearance while introverts are more concerned with the underlying reality. For Extroverts "appearance is everything" and "playing the game" is more important than reality. Introverts worry that crowds will judge them by their appearance and the strain of "keeping up appearances" leaves them feeling drained. Extroverts, on the other hand, not only aren't drained of energy but are, in fact, energized by crowds. It is not at all true that introverts are loners. Introverts are very gregarious. Introverts just don't like mindless, thoughtless, mobs of people judging them by their appearance.

 

[onesteptwostep]

so im guessing you're saying this to no one in particular

 

[TheManBeyond]

Normally with my friends i shut off my mind (just with them?) and "listen people" (i'm not sure if i'm able to listen cuz i get distracted really often) yet at the same time i'm too lazy to think, to move, to add something worthwhile to the conversation. Am i talking with the wrong guys about the wrong topics? it could be. But there are times where i feel really energized and talk whatever comes to mind.
I have this theory that it could depend on who's the "leader" of the group, with Fe doms i shut up, they have the wheel but with more introverted people i talk much more, i don't know if it's just becuz Fe's are much intimidating and can hurt me while introverted people are naturally "less capable" of doing so (ok not every of them).
So i think i'm an introverted at least in the common sense of the world, that is socializing through words. I've noticed that when people likes me is becuz my atmosphere, chill out vibe, smiling attitude not becuz they enjoy what i say.
I don't know anymore. Jung you suck.

 

[Cherry Cola]

maybe the game is reality to extroverts

 

[Architect]

Extraverts are mainly concerned with outward appearance while introverts are more concerned with the underlying reality.

Not really. You're describing dominant Se types, ESFP fits this bill. The ENTP however (and the ENTJ, ENFP, ...) go outward, but are not as concerned with appearance. Consider Adam Savage, an ENTP, do you think he cares about appearance?

 

[no one particular]

he's on TV dude. TV is all appearance

 

[nanook]

way to interpret words literally.

appearances are for example outbursts of anger, telling you to fuck off. underlying reality is whatever emotional reasoning causes that outburst of anger, which may be as mundane as low blood sugar. introverts want to rely on what is generally true, so they let specific appearances pass by when possible. including their own. they will often make a secret out of their inner workings, until a theme repeats reliably, an undeniable trend accumulates. extroverts want to respond to the situation immediately, so they take the appearance at face value, without knowing it's deeper meaning.

the extroverted interpretation is that a person is angry first and forgives later. appearances occur in time. the extrovert want's to work with the most precise knowledge of what is going on right now.

the introverted interpretation is that the person is loving underneath but angry on top. or is he generally angry but superficially friendly? more data is needed. much functionality occurs in the structure of the self, not in time. the silent observer wants to accumulate a knowledge of the general structure of things. functionality that is purely temporary and random is of no interest to the introverted perspective.

introverts feel disoriented, when confronted with appearances of unknowable origin and quality. extroverts get a sense of certainty out of appearances. extroverts get disoriented, when confronted with the ambivalence that results from insights into origins.

 

[Cherry Cola]

he's on TV dude. TV is all appearance

No it isn't. Depends on the show.

 

[Architect]

he's on TV dude. TV is all appearance

I've met him in person dude, he doesn't run a persona on the show. You can also see early footage when he worked at ILM, long before he became famous. What you see in the show really is how he is, and corresponds directly to other ENTP's I've known.

 

[no one particular]

we all run personas

 

[Cherry Cola]

someone ban this cunt, let him suppress correlatives somewhere else

 

[k9b4]

If your point is that, in general, extroverts are more concerned with their physical appearance than introverts, then I agree with you.

Extroverts, on the other hand, not only aren't drained of energy but are, in fact, energized by crowds.

They don't gain energy from crowds exactly - they simply have more efficient neural pathways for their senses, so they lose energy more slowly than introverts.

(The above paragraph is speculation only, I have no evidence to back it up)

 

[del]

Doesn't really fit my experience. I know some ISTPs and ISFPs who are very aware of appearances. Especially ISFPs.

I think Architect correctly pointed out that it's actually Se that is responsible for this. More specifically, Se gives a "general awareness of one's own impact on the environment."

Anyone with that Se-Ni axis will have that. Even INTJs are careful to make themselves look brilliant, whereas INTPs genuinely don't give any fucks. At least that's my experience.

 

[Grayman]

Why do you say introverts are this way as if most are? I dont feel judged about my looks. Im also not gregarious.

 

[computerhxr]

You have to be more specific about introversion and extroversion. An extrovert needs to touch things to understand reality, and introverts need to think about things to judge reality.

Neither of these things necessarily have anything to do with physical appearance, but I would agree that an extrovert would be more likely to care about physical appearance. This is because that is how they make sense of the world (externally). I know several very extroverted personalities and most of them don't care about how they look, but they put effort into it because they think everyone else cares and they want to fit in.

Introverts will typically want to blend in, rather than be noticed. They are still very sensitive to appearance, and many times way more sensitive than extroverts. This is because they are not practiced in extroversion, so they do not understand it as well. Looking Emo and growing out your hair is a way to avoid eye contact, and blend in to avoid being seen. This is the same as caring about how you look.

In my opinion, introverts care about appearance way more than extroverts. However, on the surface level it would appear to be the opposite.

 

[no one particular]

Yes. As I said in the op, introverts worry that crowds will judge them by their appearance and the strain of "keeping up appearances" leaves them feeling drained.

 

[no one particular]

 

[TheManBeyond]

this is how an introverted extrovert looks:

http://i.imgur.com/XWo0ArC.jpg

 

[computerhxr]

Yes. As I said in the op, introverts worry that crowds will judge them by their appearance and the strain of "keeping up appearances" leaves them feeling drained.

I was trying to make the distinction between introverted personalities and introverted thinking.

Extraverts are mainly concerned with outward appearance while introverts are more concerned with the underlying reality.

I disagree, they are both living in a world of perception.

The extraverts use external inputs to make sense of reality, and they test their assumptions by talking to others.

The introverts use internal information to make sense of reality. It is draining because of the inefficiency of this process. Too many external inputs to be processed internally. It's overwhelming and they need to spend time thinking internally to process the new information which is difficult to do on the fly.

Both are concerned with the underlying reality. They just have different ways of understanding and making sense of it.

For Extroverts "appearance is everything" and "playing the game" is more important than reality.

You switched from Extravert to Extrovert here. Did you mean to do that?

I would assert that introverts "play the game" while extroverts "live the game."

Appearance means more to introverts than to extraverts. I am trying to make the distinction between physical appearance, and appearance. Extraverts use more of an aggregate of inputs to make generalizations.

An introvert can be an extrovert by choice and vise-versa. These are typical expressions of their extraverted and introverted personalities.

Introverts worry that crowds will judge them by their appearance and the strain of "keeping up appearances" leaves them feeling drained.

Not necessarily keeping up appearances, but processing massive amounts of external stimuli internally leaves them feeling drained.

Keeping up appearances is something that INTPs are very capable of which is why there is disagreement over Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates personality types. Are they introverts or extraverts? INTPs for example are very intelligent and can switch personalities to fit the situation if they feel that it's important. Many times outward physical appearance is not important to introverts so they do not invest much energy into worrying over it.

I've heard of INTPs being referred to as social chameleons.

Extroverts, on the other hand, not only aren't drained of energy but are, in fact, energized by crowds.

Extraverts are not energized by crowds if they do not communicate with them. They are energized in the same was as introverts, except they test their beliefs externally by bouncing ideas off of others instead of internally using their own model.

It is not at all true that introverts are loners. Introverts are very gregarious. Introverts just don't like mindless, thoughtless, mobs of people judging them by their appearance.

Sure, that is one possibility. Are you asserting that extraverts enjoy mindless, thoughtless, and mobs of people judging them by their appearance? I can tell you that most people don't like to be judged and their outward appearance is a shield to deflect judgement.

Using a forum for example is an extraverted process. It feels introverted because you are protected by an avatar and have time to think and process stimuli at your own pace. It's good practice!

 

[no one particular]

Are you asserting that extraverts enjoy mindless, thoughtless, and mobs of people judging them by their appearance?

well let's see.
1) Crowds judge people by their appearance.
2) Extroverts enjoy being in front of large crowds.
Therefore
3) yes I suppose they must

 

[TheManBeyond]

I'm supossedly an extrovert and i hate to be in crowds, do you know that typical type test question about where do you place in a room? well i'm the one who's always near the wall where he can see everything but no one can see him.
haha, prepare your asses i'm the one behind y'all right now.

 

[computerhxr]

well let's see.
1) Crowds judge people by their appearance.
2) Extroverts enjoy being in front of large crowds.
Therefore
3) yes I suppose they must

Sounds logical so it must be true.

 

[no one particular]

well if Carl Jung was right then there are actually two different kinds of introversion and two different kinds of extraversion

 

[computerhxr]

I'm supossedly an extrovert and i hate to be in crowds, do you know that typical type test question about where do you place in a room? well i'm the one who's always near the wall where he can see everything but no one can see him.
haha, prepare your asses i'm the one behind y'all right now.

I have a friend who is an extravert. He argues a lot because he wants to test the validity of his ideas against external stimuli. While he is extraverted (thought), he is not an extroverted (expression) in the slightest.

Some people think that I am an extrovert when I am not. I just have forced myself into uncomfortable situations enough times so that it is second nature. It's just an internal chess game that plays out in external reality. People are highly predictable and easy to persuade. I just "turn it on" when I need to.

 

[computerhxr]

well if Carl Jung was right and then there are actually two different kinds of introversion and two different kinds of extraversion

Again, extraversion and extroversion are two different words that you're using as if they were the same.

One is a cognitive function, and the other is an expression.

There is only one kind of extraversion according to Carl Jung. He coined the term.

 

[no one particular]

it looks to me like the Myers Briggs people eliminated one of Carl Jung's introversion-extraversion pairs and replaced it with judging perceiving.

 

[computerhxr]

it looks to me like the Myers Briggs people eliminated one of Carl Jung's introversion-extraversion pairs and replaced it with judging perceiving.

According to Carl G. Jung's theory of psychological types [Jung, 1971], people can be characterized by their preference of general attitude:

Extraverted (E) vs. Introverted (I),

their preference of one of the two functions of perception:

Sensing (S) vs. Intuition (N),

and their preference of one of the two functions of judging:

Thinking (T) vs. Feeling (F)

The three areas of preferences introduced by Jung are dichotomies (i.e. bipolar dimensions where each pole represents a different preference). Jung also proposed that in a person one of the four functions above is dominant – either a function of perception or a function of judging. Isabel Briggs Myers, a researcher and practitioner of Jung’s theory, proposed to see the judging-perceiving relationship as a fourth dichotomy influencing personality type [Briggs Myers, 1980]:

Judging (J) vs. Perceiving (P)

http://www.humanmetrics.com/hr/you/personalitytype.aspx

 

[no one particular]

Jung proposed the existence of two dichotomous pairs of cognitive functions:

The "rational" (judging) functions: thinking and feeling
The "irrational" (perceiving) functions: sensation and intuition
Jung believed that for every person each of the functions are expressed primarily in either an introverted or extraverted form.

 

[computerhxr]

I can see that I'm wasting my time here.

 

[nanook]

so we are learning the alphabet now?

if you are dominant in perception you are an irrational type, else you are a rational type.

in mbti the categories J/P have a different meaning though. because mbti is only paying attention to the extroverted J or P functions (the auxiliary of introverts) when determining J/P. this is something that mbti is adding or something that carl jung was not paying attention to. who appears as being judgemental to other people? those with extroverted judgement, says mbti.

the mbti 4 letter code is designed to resonate with common sense cliches more than jungs analytical perspective, which put's total emphasis on dominant functions, that are invisible to common sense, in the case of introverts.

two other good words to use for this distinction (J/P) are the words directive (for all types with introverted perception and extroverted judgement, all J types) and adaptive for the other types, all P types.

 

[k9b4]

I've heard of INTPs being referred to as social chameleons.

I've heard of several types being referred to as social chameleons.

I don't think being a social chameleon has anything to do with type.

 

[computerhxr]

I've heard of several types being referred to as social chameleons.

I don't think being a social chameleon has anything to do with type.

Context.

 

[no one particular]

I ordered Psychological Types and it arrives tomorrow so I will see what Carl Jung himself has to say about it

 

[TheManBeyond]

what about blind born people? How could you tell if they are sensors (Si) or intuitives (Ne)?

 

[computerhxr]

what about blind born people? How could you tell if they are sensors (Si) or intuitives (Ne)?

They can see by touching things or audibility. It does not change how they process the information.

E.g. you can tell if someone is smiling through a phone conversation, without seeing their facial expression.

 

[no one particular]

so, according to Carl Jung, can one be introverted sensing and at the same time extroverted feeling?

 

[TheManBeyond]

Wtf. I mean of course but... We need nanook here or architect. I'm lost between mbti and socionics

 

[nanook]

so, according to Carl Jung, can one be introverted sensing and at the same time extroverted feeling?

in case you are thinking that knowing about another persons emotions is an example of Fe you are being way too literally about what the meaning of Fe is.


your conscious or unconscious sensing pics up the smiling from the voice, (people breath out in distinct manner and the voice becomes lighter), as a pure fact. this is neither introverted nor extroverted, because no attitude is involved.

and your whole system processes it, emotionally. while your own conscious feeling cognition (attitude) may go about evaluating it's meaning and how it relates to your own emotional meanings. is she making fun of you, might she be faking it, do you like it when she smiles? the way of exploring your attitudes.

forming an inner image that represents a smile is also not about attitude, though it is very much about sensation and is at least somewhat more creative so minor influences of attitude may shape it somehow. but your mind has more dimensions to understand the concept of smiling, it does not need visualisation to know that it is happening at all. this is the only way you will ever learn something about typology that is actually true, rather than fancy abstraction.

Si+Fe=ISFJ

obviously you do not need to be a particular type to know if someone is smiling.
this is because everyone has all four functions that exist.
functions create the reality we exist in. they are the holodeck of the human condition.
and the dimensions of I and E are always present in them.
as structural potential.
and they are online all at once.

unlike attitude, which is a ghost whirling inside of the holodeck and it's not everywhere at once.

attitude (type) is the way your own cognition is traveling through these dimensions, when the journey is not entirely controlled by external stimuli. it's your default circuit, but not the only circuit that can come into being, temporarily. when you watch movies, you can experience different types, just like when you use theory of mind to feel into all of those crazy people on message boards. what they display (say thinking) is resonating inside of your own thinking, so you can learn about thinking through other people, even if does not occur on your default circuit of attitude.

technically nothing is happing at the same time for a subjective point of view.

conscious experience, is a serial event, but maybe become a ZEN monk and figure our what "stream entry" is really like, because i can only intuit it.

stream entry means when you become aware of how consciousness is like a stream of snapshots with blanks inbetween. existence, nonexistence, existence ....
this implies awakening/ego death. the sense of self is also existing, not existing, existing.
only the awakened mind can become aware of this.

spiritual drugs can give idiots like myself an idea of what this is like.

so have fun while you exist and be empty while you don't.

 

[no one particular]

no I'm still responding to post number 27

 

[nanook]

well if you are going to read that book, you will figure it all out soon.

i understand this type of learning-process, where you fill in the gaps with speculations, that may be highly unfitting, because they origin in different ways of thinking, i'm the same and as carl jung words it: introverts have a hard time perceiving reality. in this case it's the reality of a building of thought that is still alien to us. even though it's nature is Ti from jungs perspective, it would require Te for us, to simply accept it as it is. same shout out goes to k94b.

 

[computerhxr]

no I'm still responding to post number 27

It's meant to confuse you. I am not agreeing or disagreeing. It's a thought experiment intended to force you to challenge your model of belief. Acceptance without challenge is a blind science.

I assume that together, we have many of the pieces to a puzzle. Assuming that science holds all of the pieces is a terrifying thought.

 

[Double_V]

Not really. You're describing dominant Se types, ESFP fits this bill. The ENTP however (and the ENTJ, ENFP, ...) go outward, but are not as concerned with appearance. Consider Adam Savage, an ENTP, do you think he cares about appearance?

Correct. Which is not to say we ENTP's are self conscious, it's just that we do it anyway.