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introversion is nature here is why.

peoplesuck

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I have looked this up and found that people are not sure if being introverted is nature or nurture. I have read a few books on the subject and they talked about how introverts have different dopamine pathways.(not exactly sure what it was called, do not have the book with me.) they actually have different brains, so i was wondering how this could be considered nurture. I might be wrong, please tell me what you think.:confused:
 

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it's the synthesis of both.
some nurture processes can't work on the incompatible natural foundations and vice versa.
 

Flawed_Ravvn

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I think it could be both.

By nature, I'm assuming you mean by they way the person was born. If a person is born introverted and raised thinking they are introverted by the way their parents treat them, then yes, I think it could be both.

Also, children develop habits from their parents, so if their parents are introverted then chances are the children are going to be introverted as well. There could be that slim chance of that not happening and the introverted parents have an extroverted child as well too.

How do introverts have different brains then extrovert? Does it say in the book?
 

Hadoblado

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If a brain is different to another, it does not follow that this difference is innate.

One fantastic thing about the brain is just how malleable it is. If you don't believe that brains change, then you don't believe in learning.
 

peoplesuck

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I dont have the book atm but i think it was the way outside stimulants effect them. also it said that when the introverts experience happiness its never the same high as extrovert happiness.
The 2 book are QUITE and INTROVERT POWER.
 

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If a brain is different to another, it does not follow that this difference is innate.

One fantastic thing about the brain is just how malleable it is. If you don't believe that brains change, then you don't believe in learning.

I take issue with this post but I can't quite put my finger on what bothers me about it, but I will try to work it out:

The first sentence, an if/then contingency, is accurate.

The second sentence, about the fantastic malleability of the brain, is also true.

The third ... that must be the dubious part. So first off ... I can take it as a basic if/then contingency like the first sentence. Void of context, it is actually 100% correct. However, if I try to interpret it in the context of this thread, it appears to be either a straw-man argument or another, similar variety of misrepresentation.

I would say that just because two brains are different, it doesn't necessarily follow that one has experienced a physical/physiological transformation.
 

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I think the preference for introversion or extroversion is nature. Children cannot be nurtured to be one ore the other. They can be controlled to some extent, but if left to their own devices, they will revert to their preference for one or the other.
 

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Hadoblado

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I take issue with this post but I can't quite put my finger on what bothers me about it, but I will try to work it out:

The first sentence, an if/then contingency, is accurate.

The second sentence, about the fantastic malleability of the brain, is also true.

The third ... that must be the dubious part. So first off ... I can take it as a basic if/then contingency like the first sentence. Void of context, it is actually 100% correct. However, if I try to interpret it in the context of this thread, it appears to be either a straw-man argument or another, similar variety of misrepresentation.

I would say that just because two brains are different, it doesn't necessarily follow that one has experienced a physical/physiological transformation.

What did the OP say that is misrepresented by my post? He was looking for a way that a physical difference in the brain could not be innate. Learning is one such case. I'm not trying to prove that introversion is environmental, only that the OP's reasons for thinking that it is not are insufficient.
 

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In my opinion, introverts are more sensitive to stimuli because their fear response is always on at a higher baseline level than others, which makes them more aware and causes them to speculate on situations much more which also makes them have more assumptions for those of whom haven't realized that their assumptions are, for the most part, a self-fulfilling prophecy of what they are thinking is true.

They are introverts because they are also much more afraid of doing something "wrong." Once this it thought through and the introvert has figured out that deep inside he/she is actually a good person, extroversion/confidence/self-actualization starts to develop and the introvert becomes an extrovert (or an ambivert if the introvert has already learned to enjoy being alone).

The introvert just doesn't believe in themselves enough to be an extrovert because they consider other people's opinions over their own, thinking that there is some absolute right way of behavior.



I believe the other type of introvert is the type that actually enjoys being alone, not out of fear of being judged, but because that is what they prefer.
 

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In my opinion, introverts are more sensitive to stimuli because their fear response is always on at a higher baseline level than others, which makes them more aware and causes them to speculate on situations much more which also makes them have more assumptions for those of whom haven't realized that their assumptions are, for the most part, a self-fulfilling prophecy of what they are thinking is true.

They are introverts because they are also much more afraid of doing something "wrong." Once this it thought through and the introvert has figured out that deep inside he/she is actually a good person, extroversion/confidence/self-actualization starts to develop and the introvert becomes an extrovert (or an ambivert if the introvert has already learned to enjoy being alone).

The introvert just doesn't believe in themselves enough to be an extrovert because they consider other people's opinions over their own, thinking that there is some absolute right way of behavior.



I believe the other type of introvert is the type that actually enjoys being alone, not out of fear of being judged, but because that is what they prefer.

It sounds like you are are talking about social anxiety and mixing them up with introversion. Sure a true introvert can also have social anxiety. I'm sure it happens quite often. And sure, they can overcome it and become more at ease socially. But that can be the case for an extraverted as well. If not, how do you figure social anxiety or shyness fit onto the picture?
 

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Yeah I don't think introversion is at all related to fear; it's got more to do with general levels of stimulation or activity especially in the absence of stimuli.
 

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Yeah I don't think introversion is at all related to fear; it's got more to do with general levels of stimulation or activity especially in the absence of stimuli.

I concluded that based on inducing that a person is an introvert based on their environment conditioning them to be that way when mixing the stimuli with the persons nervous system to "make them choose" the most comfortable way of life. The discomfort is where their fear/paranoia/dislikings lie. The ones who just avoid uncomfortable situations who have adapted to that way of life may have forgot that is their reason for not socializing in the first place and have kind of landed in a state of denial out of ignorance because they forgot how they even started to become that type of person.

Otherwise, like I said before, it is their preferences based on things like thinking that social people are just really stupid, etc, but I think it is true that people who are social are social because they are in a state of comedy in order to be social, either that or it is a sentimental social interaction, or prideful/competitive social interaction. The more one understands the dimensions of social interaction, the easier it becomes and the more enjoyable it is, which leads to the logical choice of engaging in it more, because it is like a game.

But, in life, there are many games to be played. I can only speak from experience. I don't know the other "games" introverts enjoy engaging in other than going through the phase of trying to choose the best future life decisions for themselves which usually involves expanding one's network in preparation of gaining resources in order to enjoy life to the fullest.
 

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It sounds like you are are talking about social anxiety and mixing them up with introversion. Sure a true introvert can also have social anxiety. I'm sure it happens quite often. And sure, they can overcome it and become more at ease socially. But that can be the case for an extraverted as well. If not, how do you figure social anxiety or shyness fit onto the picture?

Why choose introversion? It is all for psychological reward--how every living creature learns until it has reached a static way of life (turning that living creature into a set pattern of behavior, which is typically not human nature because human nature entails creative endeavors).

The premise of psychological reward in a conscious and creative being implies continuing to seek new experiences and skills to master because of the complexion of wanting and needing high self-esteem to feel good about one's self.

Once high self-esteem is reached (through self justification or justification through the comments of other people) the person then becomes confident enough to do anything and everything he/she wants to do, and in order to get what one wants faster and more efficiently, communicating with other people is necessary because of economic variables making it the most logical decision to network unless one has the power of a god to do anything whenever he/she wants.
 

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If you aren't choosing introversion, then there is a psychological barrier there that is stopping you from achieving it. Which is either paranoia or the lack of introspection.

The lack of desire and the manifestation of cynicism, existential nihilism, and the like (bringing upon a sense of meaninglessness and the sense that you have no reason to live) happens when one justifies away their want for stuff because of barriers like these. Stunting one's craving for challenge and personal growth.

All these are common phases among everyone and are all parts of the Human Condition entailing the entire spectrum of self-doubt or self-denial of instinctual desires.

That is, if one was born with the instinct of empathy for other humans.
 

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Enlighten me with more facts to disprove this. This is all only from my point of view and is not necessarily fact. It is just where my system of logic has led me.
 

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Enlighten me with more facts to disprove this. This is all only from my point of view and is not necessarily fact. It is just where my system of logic has led me.

Well facts and proof seem to be a bit of a funny subject with those previous posts of yours, as they seem to be full of speculation, and conjecture, and the word because.

So what are we supposed to do? Find every instance, quote it, break it up, and ask "why" a dozen times?
 

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Why choose introversion? It is all for psychological reward--how every living creature learns until it has reached a static way of life (turning that living creature into a set pattern of behavior, which is typically not human nature because human nature entails creative endeavors).

The premise of psychological reward in a conscious and creative being implies continuing to seek new experiences and skills to master because of the complexion of wanting and needing high self-esteem to feel good about one's self.

Once high self-esteem is reached (through self justification or justification through the comments of other people) the person then becomes confident enough to do anything and everything he/she wants to do, and in order to get what one wants faster and more efficiently, communicating with other people is necessary because of economic variables making it the most logical decision to network unless one has the power of a god to do anything whenever he/she wants.

There are different ideas on what introversion and extroversion are. So we would have to start with comparing apples to apples here. I really can't comment on the "power of God" because I have had a personal code of "self reliant" to live by.
I dont think anyone chooses to be an introvert or extrovert. They can choose which behavior to adapt for particular situations. I would call that coping with a situation in a way which is not natural for them.
Extroverts feel anxious when they are away from people for a prolonged period of time. Introverts are more self contained. That has nothing to do with self-esteem.
 

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Well facts and proof seem to be a bit of a funny subject with those previous posts of yours, as they seem to be full of speculation, and conjecture, and the word because.

So what are we supposed to do? Find every instance, quote it, break it up, and ask "why" a dozen times?

Yeah, we'll when we are talking about the psyche in general, it is all speculation in the first place, so actually this is quite the impossible topic in the first place. There is only opinion on this matter. Everyone basically can choose what they believe on this subject and still be inductively correct.
 

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There are different ideas on what introversion and extroversion are. So we would have to start with comparing apples to apples here. I really can't comment on the "power of God" because I have had a personal code of "self reliant" to live by.
I dont think anyone chooses to be an introvert or extrovert. They can choose which behavior to adapt for particular situations. I would call that coping with a situation in a way which is not natural for them.
Extroverts feel anxious when they are away from people for a prolonged period of time. Introverts are more self contained. That has nothing to do with self-esteem.

As an ambivert, I am both self-contained and hungry for socializing, but I still enjoy both being alone and with other people.

It is analogous to the concept of eating food. Socializing = eating, alone time = digesting. Although right now, I guess I would probably be considered a glutton of socialization. Haha.

On the topic of what is natural, I bask in both the natural and unnatural. Challenging myself to do the unnatural and using what is natural to me to my advantage.
 

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As an ambivert, I am both self-contained and hungry for socializing, but I still enjoy both being alone and with other people.

It is analogous to the concept of eating food. Socializing = eating, alone time = digesting. Although right now, I guess I would probably be considered a glutton of socialization. Haha.

On the topic of what is natural, I bask in both the natural and unnatural. Challenging myself to do the unnatural and using what is natural to me to my advantage.

So which one feels more unnatural to you?
 

peoplesuck

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thanks thats what i was talking about.
 

peoplesuck

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Introversion has nothing to do with fear, shyness.
 

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So which one feels more unnatural to you?

They're both natural to me now. Introversion used to be more natural, now extroversion is just as natural, if not more.
 

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I think the preference for introversion or extroversion is nature. Children cannot be nurtured to be one ore the other. They can be controlled to some extent, but if left to their own devices, they will revert to their preference for one or the other.

In my experience I started off as an extrovert. Probably and ENTP and yet I have become and INTP so the switch was a pleasant one. I believe that nature has a greater impact on personality and yet nurture from ones parents may play a role both of my parents are introverts. Don't ask me how I managed to become an INTP I have yet to figure that one out. So it is a semblance of many factors because it says that the personality is 40 % pre-programmed into the hardware of our brains.
 

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I have looked this up and found that people are not sure if being introverted is nature or nurture. I have read a few books on the subject and they talked about how introverts have different dopamine pathways.(not exactly sure what it was called, do not have the book with me.) they actually have different brains, so i was wondering how this could be considered nurture. I might be wrong, please tell me what you think.:confused:
Off hand I'd guess it could go either way. And if one has nurture pressure early enough that could change the dopamine pathways. Nurture (experience) could cause fear in external interactions causing a lot of defensive behavior with internal defenses (introversion). On the other hand one's nature could be to be wary or at least doubtful of external happenings. This would mean also introversion to deal with it.
 

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Introversion has nothing to do with fear, shyness.
Just noticed your post. Why not? Fear wouldn't have to mean all out fear, but rather wariness or suspended judgement requiring internal reflection.

Shyness? I lost ya there. Isn't shyness an attitude which withdraws from external stimulation?

I'm an introvert BTW. I can move outside but depending on my reserve have to withdraw to recuperate.
 

peoplesuck

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Bigapple sorry for late reply but from what i know shyness is wanting to interact but being too self conscious. who knows :d
 

Variform

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it's the synthesis of both.
some nurture processes can't work on the incompatible natural foundations and vice versa.

That is true. How we think affects the brain and the brain in turn affects how we think.
 

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I have looked this up and found that people are not sure if being introverted is nature or nurture. I have read a few books on the subject and they talked about how introverts have different dopamine pathways.(not exactly sure what it was called, do not have the book with me.) they actually have different brains, so i was wondering how this could be considered nurture. I might be wrong, please tell me what you think.:confused:

I know that research shows that in people with StPD, dopamine regulation is affected as well as the frontal parts of the brain. I am StpD and introverted. I also am pretty damned sure I suffer from ADD. Which is also a dopamine issue.

I seem to be dopamine impaired. You gotta wonder if some StPD symptoms are not closely related to ADD through the dopamine system. Science suggests the co-morbidity between ADHD and personality disorders is great. I wonder if there is a synergy effect when two disorders appear in one person, like a double whammy.

You wouldn't understand the depth of my lack of motivation. If StPD impairs based on dopamine and the AD(H)D hinders me as well, it is a wonder I get out of bed in the morning.

Now, if dopamine makes you motivated, focus your attention, allows you to concentrate, the introvert will direct, as it were, his dopamine inwards. To act in life requires dopamine, yet the introvert acts on the inside. That makes it appear as if the introvert is unmotivated and inactive.

SO I wonder if an extroverted person uses his dopamine more to act and be in contact with the world. And that in this sense introverts or introverts because they do not use their dopamine system as much or as effectively.

In any case, both must be natural. Evolutionary speaking, someone who actively goes out to interact with the world has advantages. He will find new hunting terrain, safe places to sleep. He is extroverted and focuses on the world. The introvert will have advantages too. He will not fall into traps scurrying about. He will stick to a safe place before venturing out to take the risk of not finding new shelter, or food, when all is provided nearby.

The introvert will hold back the extrovert. The extrovert will drag on the introvert. I think they benefit from each other equally.
 

peoplesuck

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If something doesnt interest you and you have 0 motivation to do it is that some sort of ADD or ADHD?
 

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I think introversion and extroversion is an innate properties of each person, but both can be controlled and tricked to some extent that made an extrovert looks like an introvert and visa versa although deep inside they are still an extrovert/introvert.

I know I was an introvert by nature, my mother said that I cried a lot more than an my siblings and I always look shy and quite all the time even when someone tried to talk to me.

I remember back then in kindergarten, every time I would spent my time alone and I will try to avoid the other kids on the playground, everytime people starts to gather near me I would go away to a quiter place where no one is there.

Then I was told by my teacher and parents that I should try socializing for my own good and they said when I got used to it I will feel Ok.

Now I have no trouble talking to others when I need to, but I prefer not to, I felt somewhat tired and fed up everytime I talk with others. It's not that I am afraid to, but it kinda felt like when you are forced to eat something that you actually didn't like at all but you have to, the more you eat it the more you are used to it, yet deep inside you still didn't like it and if given a choice you would instantly choose not to eat it again.
 

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That's mean that you do not know about what you truly want yet or you know what you truly want but you denied it due to your own experience or what you think you know and how you perceived about what's going to happen and what you are going to feel
 

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Adhd is often related to not being unmotivated and there's might be some truth to it, but do note that everyone not only someone that have been diagnosed with add/adhd may and can experience it.

I may be wrong too because I am stating what I felt was right based on my opinion although I don't understand why you're feeling that way and why did you think you felt that way
 

peoplesuck

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Im so lost, if something doesnt interest me i might aswell have adhd becuas i wont be able to pay attention.
 

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I think introversion and extroversion is an innate properties of each person, but both can be controlled and tricked to some extent that made an extrovert looks like an introvert and visa versa although deep inside they are still an extrovert/introvert.

The difference is more fundamental. It is the vector of libido.

I know I was an introvert by nature, my mother said that I cried a lot more than an my siblings and I always look shy and quite all the time even when someone tried to talk to me.

Those are not per sé indications of introversion. Extroverts can be shy too. I rarely cried as a baby.

I remember back then in kindergarten, every time I would spent my time alone and I will try to avoid the other kids on the playground, everytime people starts to gather near me I would go away to a quiter place where no one is there.

Then I was told by my teacher and parents that I should try socializing for my own good and they said when I got used to it I will feel Ok.

Teachers... They get trained to educate and part of their education, at least here, is a little bit of psychology on the side. But the whole NTI thing is not taken seriously by any psychiatrist really, as far as I can see. They think of it as something hardly relevant. My psychologist says Jung is really not used anymore in any way. It is mostly brains and pills.

Teachers... dumb fucks when it comes to recognizing basic traits in children. Even if the whole MBTI thing is a load of crap, it can still be a tool to teach teachers how to recognize innate traits and in doing so, avoid involuntary mental or emotional abuse. For surely the MBTI system will provide analysis closer to the child's personal psychology than the lack of any assessment.

When I was in grade school we would sit in a circle and each would get a turn telling what they did the day before. I think they do this in all the world. Anyway, when it was my turn I would not have anything to say. I was shy and no matter how the teacher pushed, I rarely said much. One day the teacher said I had to make up a story.

I guess he was afraid I would lack behind in my ability to express myself. But much later in life an IQ test revealed I have a high verbal IQ. It is pretty much top 10% of the land. There was never any danger, but I didn't like to blabber around what I did. My mothger defended me on this occasion, said that some children would talk about how their parents fought... and that I would not. Or that they bought a new sofa, I would not tell that.

My god, I suddenly realize what my mother said is quite revealing. I should thank you for your post because it has lead me to the realization: what mother would tell a teacher in defense of her quiet son that he would not be so open and use a fight between parents as an example??? Did my mother fight with my dad over a new couch? Wtf...

She knew there were problems at home. I remember her fighting my father. Once, she raised a granite ashtray above her head as if to bash his skull in.

Could it be...my god. She knew we were always fighting, that we were dysfunctional, That I was angry as a child and rude to her. She knew but she lied to my teacher to protect her own ass and responsibility, defending I was shy to hide her own ass.


Now I have no trouble talking to others when I need to, but I prefer not to, I felt somewhat tired and fed up everytime I talk with others. It's not that I am afraid to, but it kinda felt like when you are forced to eat something that you actually didn't like at all but you have to, the more you eat it the more you are used to it, yet deep inside you still didn't like it and if given a choice you would instantly choose not to eat it again.

That sounds about right yes. It drains you. And thus the examples you mentioned are indeed in that case indicative. You were shy and the crying MIGHT mean that the interaction with siblings was tiring you out and then babies cry.
 

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Im so lost, if something doesnt interest me i might aswell have adhd becuas i wont be able to pay attention.

No, you cannot abuse a psychiatric label like that. It is unfair to others who really have it because the label devalues because of inflation. If everybody will just state they have AD(H)D then the people that really have it will be swept away in an ocean of labels and will be harder to get a proper diagnosis and the help they need.

Please respect the label.
 

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Please recognize the fact that is was a figure of speech, an exaggeration and only in that specific area that i dont care about.
 

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Please recognize the fact that is was a figure of speech, an exaggeration and only in that specific area that i dont care about.

Please recognize the fact that he's brought up the valid point that your choice in idiom/form of expression is not really politically correct. Please recognize the possibility perhaps that neither of you cares what the other has to say regarding its legitimacy, however, objectivity remains.
 

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It should be pointed out that the kind of introversion/extroversion that's being discussed is not the same introversion/extraversion (the 'a' is intentional) that is discussed in personality type theory.

Being an MBTI/Jungian introvert merely means that your dominant function (your preference) is an introverted function. Specifically, INTPs are dominant introverted thinking (building models in your mind), while their auxiliary function is extraverted intuition (correlating ideas through your senses). Neither of these functions operates exclusively in situations that we would label "extroverted" or "introverted".

For example, introverted thinkers apply themselves during design meetings by taking in everything people are talking about and assembling it into a conceptual model. Most dominant introverted thinkers become more vocal the longer a meeting goes on as their grasp of the "whole" of the subject outpaces their peers.

Extraverted intuition can be harnessed by reading something you didn't write in order to stimulate your creativity. Just by seeing new information, you engage the part of your brain that leaps to interesting conclusions.

On the other hand, introversion outside of personality type theory typically refers to an unwillingness to put oneself "out there". It can just as easily manifest as being quiet as it can being unwillingness to submit a finished manuscript to a publisher. This kind of introversion, and its extroversion counterpart, describes behavior more than a psychological thought process. Whether or not behavioral introversion/extroversion is nature/nurture, I find the dopamine argument fairly compelling, but I agree that those behaviors can and do change throughout the course of your life.
 
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