INTP's shouldn't try to help people

[Architect]

This is a something that keeps proving itself over and over; Archie, don't try and help people. There's a single exception, which is other INTP's, possible reasons why below. And I'll note I'm sure some of you have had better luck, but I certainly haven't. Most of the time I try to help somebody it blows up in my face. They end up getting angry, ignoring or otherwise unappreciative, leaving me unhappy. I was just trying to help!

I think the problem is communication and method. For example, to me information is just information, is just information, and always useful. Other people need the language of feeling, not information. Or they want the right information, and if you don't tell them just what they need they're unhappy with you. Or their just combative (usually the case with ST types it seems.)

The one exception I've found is advice I've given here to INTP's, for the most part. Some cranky folks here, but generally folks have been receptive. Same wavelength, source and sink of information. It doesn't work that way with others, especially Feelers and Sensors I've found.

Not to say INTP's should be selfish and self involved people, but we should stick to our designing and concentrate on getting it out in the world. That's how we can usefully contribute.

 

[Seteleechete]

I disagree, we come with the best advice and the trick lies in learning to communicate that advice.

Though I agree that communication is the problem.

 

[Jennywocky]

It depends on the type of people you are trying to help.

Entrenched, close-minded groups where people are more interested in bolstering their egos and being in charge... well, those groups don't appreciate help unless you do exactly what they want and the way they want you to do it.

In general, nowadays, when I give honest help, people have been very appreciative. But I usually figure out what kind of help they need before I give it and they appreciate the fact that someone cares enough to help.

 

[kvothe27]

I think some people view it as being lectured to, which makes them feel small. As you say, it's best to present knowledge indirectly or with tact, which is something INTPs can lack due to an underdeveloped Fe. This allows the person to come to that information in an organic way rather than feeling put on the spot. You want to midwife that information out of them, so that it makes them feel like they came up with it, rather than make them feel like they're being lectured to. In some people's eyes, you need a title for the privilege of potentially making them feel small. INTPs don't often respect titles, but many other types certainly do.

Online discussion forums are a better means of socializing, imo, than real life when it comes to such things because it provides the participants with more control than what they have in real life social situations. It allows the participants to organically participate in various discussions rather than feel put on the spot.

 

[rainman312]

I disagree strongly. Many of you very recently gave me some useful suggestions as a response to my post. Many people who aren't INTPs struggle with understanding issues that INTPs have, so I feel that talking to other INTPs is a great way to get advice, especially since many of them have likely had to deal with the same problems already.

 

[Minuend]

It might be something about how you say it. Maybe your attitude comes off as almost dismissive like "you just have to do this or that and it will be fine". Maybe it seems to them like you are not understanding them and their problem sufficiently or maybe you sound patronizing. Or maybe you just have a lot of people around you who anger easily.

I don't really call this type of advising helping. I guess I have similar talks, but helping gives me the association of thinking my advice or solution is the correct one and that I know it will work. People can be very different and sometimes the solution to a conflict which seems the obvious one might end up hurting the cause in the long run.

My approach to these types of things is usually asking. I ask whether the person tried to do this or that. I ask why they think the other person thinks or feels this and that (if it is a personal conflict). I also tailor my communication to the recipient. With some people I can be more direct, while others are more sensitive.

Sometimes people just need to let off some steam, which is fine.

I think I'm mostly able to pick up on when people don't want to hear certain things before they become offended or angry. I'm also very aware some people wont learn by listening, they have to make the mistakes for themselves.

 

[Alias]

INTPs make wise mentors and can be good in the advisor-to-the-king position, especially if the king is an efficient and open ENTJ (that way the INTP's ideas are put into action easily and properly). However, when overly stubborn or fragile people ask for help from INTPs, they are disappointed that it's not what they wanted to hear. But when people open their minds and are willing to hear the uncut truth, INTPs can give some of the best help. Generally, however, I agree with you, Architect, caring for people and community service should be left to the ESFJs.

 

[Architect]

Yeah, good points but you're all reinforcing what I mean to say. Minuend, yes delivery is an issue, as I said I don't speak the language of F or ST very well. rainman312, I mentioned that INTP's are the exception to this. Seteleechete, yes we have good advice I believe, the problem is that we aren't generally good at communicating it.

 

[peoplesuck]

people dont want "help" they want empathy and sympathy, in my exp

 

[dark+matters]

This is a something that keeps proving itself over and over; Archie, don't try and help people. There's a single exception, which is other INTP's, possible reasons why below. And I'll note I'm sure some of you have had better luck, but I certainly haven't. Most of the time I try to help somebody it blows up in my face. They end up getting angry, ignoring or otherwise unappreciative, leaving me unhappy. I was just trying to help!

I think the problem is communication and method. For example, to me information is just information, is just information, and always useful. Other people need the language of feeling, not information. Or they want the right information, and if you don't tell them just what they need they're unhappy with you. Or their just combative (usually the case with ST types it seems.)

The one exception I've found is advice I've given here to INTP's, for the most part. Some cranky folks here, but generally folks have been receptive. Same wavelength, source and sink of information. It doesn't work that way with others, especially Feelers and Sensors I've found.

Not to say INTP's should be selfish and self involved people, but we should stick to our designing and concentrate on getting it out in the world. That's how we can usefully contribute.

This sounds pretty sensible to me. People rarely pick up on my desire to contribute. I spent a long time going to school to be a counselor, but actually helping people directly turns out... iffy for me at best. When I do directly help people untangle unpleasant feelings, I have to wear a totally blank mask which I can't do forever.

My INFJ friend, however, has pretty much spent every day of her life for the past 10 years helping people with hurt feelings or severely broken lives in a direct manner, and I don't think she has to zero out her thoughts, feelings, or judgments at all. She's living out her nature very authentically and addressing these types of challenges seems satisfying to her. But I have often been surprised at how little I feel after volunteering for some touchy-feely event that others seem to derive so much satisfaction from (aside from upset at the fact that a problem existed in the first place).

Unfortunately, though she's more than intellectually equipped to do well in college at any degree level she would pursue, she didn't complete the education necessary to get paid appropriately for her services to so many people (oh, NF. lol It makes so much sense now.). I definitely don't have as deep a well of patience as she does for listening to people's problems in a non-judgmental manner. I won't judge someone with a problem as a human being, but if it's a normal day for me, I will constantly be thinking about their actions, traits and experiences and their intersections with mine, weighing them all together, rearranging the possibilities, etc.

This has seemed to unsettle some of my S-friends very deeply, which has ended up being really sad in some cases because I can't change someone else's perception of me as "calculating" or "cold" without pretending to be someone else (which can't last forever). I listen to people's problems and offer comfort/advice for a long time if I'm in the right mood, but it is not for as long as some people need. And if I do try to strategize for someone else, it often doesn't work out. I can help some people, but half the time I'll either come across as silly, a jerk or otherwise waste my time and theirs. I'm put to better use by doing other things. It sounds like a lot of INTPs do best by helping people at a distance or by proxy and not in as direct a manner as some- like the NF or FJ counselors. Helping indirectly via sound strategy or by learning/expressing well-thought philosophies and principles isn't any less valuable at all though. It's taken a long time for me to accept that.

 

[xZero]

I do not completely disagree. Communication is well known problem as always.
We shall help others, but we shall be careful who we are helping.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Archie... not every intp is going to have the same deficiencies (or successes) as you. Certainly to claim that all intps have such critical empathy problems that they can't help people is a tad foolish.

It is wise not to butt into situations you don't understand, but that is hardly intp-specific.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

This is a something that keeps proving itself over and over; Archie, don't try and help people. There's a single exception, which is other INTP's, possible reasons why below. And I'll note I'm sure some of you have had better luck, but I certainly haven't. Most of the time I try to help somebody it blows up in my face. They end up getting angry, ignoring or otherwise unappreciative, leaving me unhappy. I was just trying to help!

I think the problem is communication and method. For example, to me information is just information, is just information, and always useful. Other people need the language of feeling, not information. Or they want the right information, and if you don't tell them just what they need they're unhappy with you. Or their just combative (usually the case with ST types it seems.)

The one exception I've found is advice I've given here to INTP's, for the most part. Some cranky folks here, but generally folks have been receptive. Same wavelength, source and sink of information. It doesn't work that way with others, especially Feelers and Sensors I've found.

Not to say INTP's should be selfish and self involved people, but we should stick to our designing and concentrate on getting it out in the world. That's how we can usefully contribute.

Maybe the first time I understand something a little better than you.
First, noone can advice noone, because everyone is so different. You can't know what is the best for someone, because he has other needs, other values, other feelings. Only he can know what he want. I already noticed, that every advice what people gave me was wrong, they don't what I want. Even I don't know it very well, but know it better each day.
Second, people don't want advice, people want to be understand and supported, which means that you accept they the way they are, and to believe in them.
Even if it's irrational what they want, it's what they want and it's noone interest to tell them what they should want. Also I think everything is irrational (nihilism) so everyone can do what they want.
My best ESTP friend has great people skills and is loved by everybody, he never gives advice, just ask how I want to do something and says that's good idea if I think it's good idea ;D
In other hand, my ISFJ cousin gives everyone advice, and many people don't like him.

Think about it.

 

[Pyropyro]

I have to disagree Archie. I think INTP's can be a great asset in helping people.

I think the problem is communication and method. For example, to me information is just information, is just information, and always useful. Other people need the language of feeling, not information. Or they want the right information, and if you don't tell them just what they need they're unhappy with you. Or their just combative (usually the case with ST types it seems.)

Communication - Fortunately this can be learned. Unfortunately, it's hard to master especially for our type.

Method - I find that letting people do the work themselves rather than doing them on your own is the best way of helping people. It helps them take ownership of their actions and their lives.

A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves. - Lao Tzu


Feelings - I unfortunately have little advice to offer here since I haven't figured it out yet. However, I find that calm people are more open to learning than agitated/stressed ones.

I think this boils down to empathy.

So how do we fix the issues above? Well, we have to do two simple (but hard) things:
1. Research. There are networking and negotiating books for introverts which covers the three issues. The tricky ones to research are the people themselves that you wish to help. At the seminary where I'm studying my masters, we were thought that one should immerse themselves on the group of people that they wish to help. Basically, learning how they live, hanging out with them etc. That way, one can refine their methods and communication skills to suit their target people's needs.
2. Practice your research.

 

[Architect]

Archie... not every intp is going to have the same deficiencies (or successes) as you.

If you read my post again you'll see that I said that.

Maybe the first time I understand something a little better than you.
... Think about it.

I have, and have been trained in it. See below.

I have to disagree Archie. I think INTP's can be a great asset in helping people.

Yes I agree they can be, but my post was that they shouldn't be.

I think this boils down to empathy.

There's the rub, do you really want to do this? Think carefully a moment while I tell a story.

Some years ago I was recognized as not being an engineer with a nasty personality. Unusual, most of the gnarly ISTJ's/ISTP's were hard to work with, frustrating the managers. While they did recognize I wasn't full manager material (e.g. I was too good at my job), I would be a good technical leader. I was pretty good, so good I got to technically boss a world wide team of 300 engineers in three countries.

I also got training in what you talk about above, communication, presentation and so forth. Interesting stuff, a communication class I took was fascinating. I was being groomed to become a "Change Leader", a person who was to influence people (to help them to change and move an organization forward), and manage both upwards and downwards. Basically it comes down to empathy, at least understanding things from another viewpoint as you said.

The result of which is my head exploded. It wasn't me, yes I could do it but it was terrifically draining to have to do that. Result; midlife crisis and almost washed out of my career, until I did a retread back into the ranks as an expert engineer. The point being, yes we (or any type) can learn anything, but as my dad says, "be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it".

Now, answer; do you really want to learn how to help people?

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

Now, answer; do you really want to learn how to help people?

For me, the answer is yes.
im disorganised as hell and very forgetful, which is why I always find myself in the dumbest of situations. A lot of people have helped me out of such situations, so i try my best to be helpful too (altho im probably terrible at it). It's a part of me I try to improve

 

[nanook]

If you want to give good advice, focus more on Ne and reduce the Ti as much as possible. The problem is how subjectively invasive Ti is by nature. No Fe-effort towards presentation can make up for that. Perhaps try to fake Te, by ramping up Ne, limit your thinking to how the situation of the other person works objectively and exploring what action would cause what outcome. Just don't lecture them on how to think about their problems. Don't try to teach them to become a Ti clone of yourself and all should be good.

(I'm in the same situation with Fi, some individuals are open to hearing about what liberation Fi offers towards reinterpreting the meaning of reality instead of reacting to it, but most are not)

 

[Brontosaurie]

Archie... not every intp is going to have the same deficiencies (or successes) as you. Certainly to claim that all intps have such critical empathy problems that they can't help people is a tad foolish.

It is wise not to butt into situations you don't understand, but that is hardly intp-specific.

you might as well be saying "not every INTP is going to gravitate toward Ti". at best it's just a cautious reminder of general type skepticism, disguised as a rebuttal of the specific hypothesis put forth in this thread.

what Architect says can hardly be argued imo. if anything, it's too obvious. Ti dominant pretty much means your contribution is through design or revision of some conceptual framework which, if successful, aids humanity on a larger scale. it means that counseling individual persons will be a waste of effort for you. does Ti dominance exist? that's another question. it's easy to win any typology discussion by being 2cool4pseudoscience. but it's no fun. it's no challenge. you bring nothing. we all partake under the assumption that typology is valid or at least interesting enough to warrant sincere discussion.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

I
Now, answer; do you really want to learn how to help people?

as I said, most people, and you don't know what helping means.

in your definition of helping, I don't want to help people

 

[Architect]

and you don't know what helping means.

in your definition of helping, I don't want to help people

Eh? Helping people means, offering help in whatever way they need help. Offer advice. Listen to them talk, give them money, give them your time in one way or another. Don't know what other definition there could be.

 

[TBerg]

What Architect means is: Be careful when intentionally screwing with the source code.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

From my personal experience, i have observed that people whom i tried to help failed to take my advice because they were intellectually not up to the task.
And they failed miserably, which was not my intention at all.
I don't try to assist people to see them fail.
So, yes, i'd have to agree, somehow we're not communicating with other people on the level that our advice is practically realized in a benefit, because they don't understand the different levels of meaning that this advice would have to encompass, and fail to incorporate this into their lives.
It's like a A1 english teacher speaking to a C3 class.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

Eh? Helping people means, offering help in whatever way they need help. Offer advice. Listen to them talk, give them money, give them your time in one way or another. Don't know what other definition there could be.

ask your wife

Helping is not when you support someone in something what you think is good.
In definition it means to support other thoughts, not yours. If you think someone do something wrong and try to make someone to do something, what you think is good is not helping, but manipulation. I know something about it ;D

True help is always selfless.

Pessimists can't help people.
To help means to give energy to realize goals.
Only optimists, who believe someone will succed can support. Pessimists see everywhere problems and say that something what succed, then they discourage.

Everyone what something different, you can't know what is good or bad for someone.

Sometimes I think to best help is to do nothing. People need understand something, not hear advice which they don't understand, it goes nowhere. Let them fail. Let them learn.

 

[Yellow]

I mostly agree that we shouldn't try to help people in a warm-fuzzy empathetic kind of way, because it's not our forte. But when people need us, they really, really need us. Also, people who want to help, are rarely a real help in the long run. The helpers are prone to enabling, co-dependence, and other trappings.

I was just doing a round of interviews to fill a vacancy, and I always ask the question "why do you want this position?". If the answer is "I really like helping people", you're probably going to have a bad time. It means that you are trying use the job/clients to fulfill your need to feel needed, valuable, and to make a connection. From my vantage point, it means that you are going to have boundary issues.

You know who can maintain professional boundaries while respecting client autonomy, be nonjudgmental, provide gentle guidance, be calm in a crisis, remain patient, and provide valuable insight? We can! Yay us!

You know who has no idea how to act around a crying stranger or what to say when their sister asks why no one wants to marry her? Who doesn't know when a person is looking to be comforted rather than be provided a list of facts? Us again, unfortunately.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I was just doing a round of interviews to fill a vacancy, and I always ask the question "why do you want this position?". If the answer is "I really like helping people", you're probably going to have a bad time. It means that you are trying use the job/clients to fulfill your need to feel needed, valuable, and to make a connection. From my vantage point, it means that you are going to have boundary issues.

You know, in the cases i tried to help people, it was not so much that i engaged my ego into helping them, but recognizing that there is a problem to be solved.

I wanted to help them realize their problem,
i wanted to help them realize what holds them back from overcoming that problem,
but alas, they were stuck in their self-destructive ways.
No matter how often i reminded them of being self-sabotaging, they just couldn't see how their persistant behaviour prevented them from overcoming that problem.
In the end, they fully escalated the problem i tried to make them aware of beforehand.
They ended up going against my advice,
because they are human.
They like to stick to their ideas no matter how harmful they are becoming to them in a different cultural environment.
And it's really sad to watch that unfolding.
I made them aware of watchdog groups of exiled people,
people they could get involved in, and to be accepted as their allies.
But they were too full of themselves.
They rejected working with the other exiled personalities,
therefore they were on their own.
Alone, you are weak, together, we are strong.

 

[Architect]

ask your wife

I have and yeah, she's instructed me in empathy (not like it took, but she says I am more empathetic than many T males, which I don't really believe. I think I just can see things from their viewpoint, which is different.)

Helping is not when you support someone in something what you think is good ...

Sure, we all know this, more or less.

Pessimists can't help people.

Not sure about that though.

So I'm not sure what we're arguing about, I agree with what your saying here, my point is that I'm (and I think INTPs in general) aren't very good at this. This also comes from my wife - as you mention, she is the expert at this. I have a hard time imagining an INTP doing it as well as she does.

 

[Pyropyro]

...
The result of which is my head exploded. It wasn't me, yes I could do it but it was terrifically draining to have to do that. Result; midlife crisis and almost washed out of my career, until I did a retread back into the ranks as an expert engineer. The point being, yes we (or any type) can learn anything, but as my dad says, "be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it".
...

I think it's because you were forced to work on leadership stuff and less on doing INTP recharging stuff. In my case, I still get to research stuff/dick around the internet so I get recharged enough to deal with people.

We should approximately dedicate 30% of our time for non-INTP stuff and dedicate the rest of our time for things that we love.

As for leadership Oddlydevelopedtypes says it best (emphasis mine):

What INTPs enjoy about leadership is not being controlled by anyone; getting to see their ideas carried out; and analyzing and manipulating the complex systems inherent in a large project/task under their control.

In my case, I don't like my bosses to get in my way. If I need to manage them upwards just to get more precious "me time" at the office then let it be so.

It's a bit of a personal shame but I also get a kick in winning arguments and persuading people with higher ranks than I am. It's like an RPG boss fight. You need to grind (research) and buy gear (people skills) to beat (persuade) the bosses.

Now, answer; do you really want to learn how to help people?

I already am doing that for the past few years I keep on getting leadership roles anyways. Might as well enjoy them.

 

[redbaron]

The thing about helping people is that you can't just logically outline the solution and expect people to understand it. You have to get them to recognize that they need your help in the first place, as well as make them like you personally - then you can give them the logical solution.

Thing is that it's not easy to get someone to let down their guard and admit their inability to help themselves, let alone to believe you've got a solution they haven't already thought of. It requires you to be interested in what they have to say and to really, actually give a fuck about them as a person in the first place. This is probably where INTP's fail because they jump to step 3 (logical argument) before they've even completed step 1, because as an INTP they're more interested in the logical solution than in the details of the person's life.

I don't see this as an INTP issue though. Any type can help people if they learn to listen, ask the right questions and are skilled enough to manipulate bypass the barriers that all people put up around themselves.

Another type like ESFJ might be better at step 1 - but they'll struggle with step 3. Maybe an INTJ would struggle with step 2. They've all got to learn some new skills to get the job done.

Point is that 'helping' people isn't an easy thing to do in the first place and all types are going to have issues in managing to really get through to people and get them to turn things around for themselves.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

I have and yeah, she's instructed me in empathy (not like it took, but she says I am more empathetic than many T males, which I don't really believe. I think I just can see things from their viewpoint, which is different.)



Sure, we all know this, more or less.



Not sure about that though.

So I'm not sure what we're arguing about, I agree with what your saying here, my point is that I'm (and I think INTPs in general) aren't very good at this. This also comes from my wife - as you mention, she is the expert at this. I have a hard time imagining an INTP doing it as well as she does.

Because I'm INTP and I think I can help people. I was in some way "offended" ;D
Maybe I'm not as proffesional as INFJs, but as your wife said about your extraordinary empathy among T types - I have huge empathy too (comparing to T types, and sometimes even to F types) and I don't think INTP suck at it. xxTJ types do.

 

[Architect]

I think it's because you were forced to work on leadership stuff

Nobody is ever forced into leadership in jobs like this. It's an offer for you to take up if you want, then you have to prove you can do it. All very relaxed.

and less on doing INTP recharging stuff. In my case, I still get to research stuff/dick around the internet so I get recharged enough to deal with people.

Technical leadership, meaning I did both. I made architectural decisions and designs, then needed to communicate and get the teams to accept it.

We should approximately dedicate 30% of our time for non-INTP stuff and dedicate the rest of our time for things that we love.

Sure it's not 29%? Just kidding, I find that more than 30% of my time is taken up with "non-INTP" stuff anyhow.

Because I'm INTP and I think I can help people. I was in some way "offended" ;D

Ah. Don't worry, I'm not trying you tell you your mind. Just offering an idea and experience here. But it's worth considering your motivations. I wanted to help people too - inferior Fe I found out later, but that's the achilles heel and why I'm not so good at it. Both my motivations and abilities to do it are relatively undeveloped.

but as your wife said about your extraordinary empathy among T types - I have huge empathy too (comparing to T types, and sometimes even to F types) and I don't think INTP suck at it. xxTJ types do.

Who said anything about extraordinary? Hardly that, just "not as bad as others". And her next words were "True for INTP's in general, they're the most "feely" of the thinkers, I think".

Again the Fe inferior, but interestingly you don't see that as much in the ISTP's, the Se gets in the way somehow.

 

[Vion]

Or their just combative (usually the case with ST types it seems.)

lol you got that right! Don't forget to add meek and tasteless. Which I consider to be the path you wish to endorse. An INTP without feedback is simply useless.

Unbuilt People: Vampires
Now what I have recognized is that there are the conscientious whom wish to be "helpful" from a place of authority before any task exists, wrongfully looking down upon others. As the Dunning-Kruger effect states they are incompetent and should be staked through the heart like the lying bloodsuckers they truly are to everyone. They can burn in hell before I offer any aide. Misinform that person any and every chance you get because they need to get learned the hard way.

Broken People: Ghosts
Now if you are concerned that your associates might be cuckold into ostracizing you to fit a growing groupthink what I suggest doing is isolating them without any audience to steal their role. Then when presented with public mockery assume the stance they presented previously to reroute the harassment to their identity as best you can. Their persona will take the fall and their ideas shall be shattered. What they once had is now submissive unto you and they will follow you or risk severance. In short when someone presents reverse victimization just rip their identity out and flush it because you certainly are capable of that. Then leash them with a reward system for their compliance while making sure all their belongings are found in other people's possession. In short bury and burn that mother fucker.

Conclusion: INFP and ISTP need to leave INTP the hell out of their short sighted disagreements because they are barking up the wrong tree!

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Any person can help, they just need to be mindful of their flaws and shortcomings and of what the other person needs. Usually it's about being open and understanding of that person, rather than imposing our self-derived meaning or structure.

Impersonal altruism is unnecessary, it's mostly about the betterment for the group.

Saying INTP's are better off fixing world systems or something else sounds funny, really, all I do and would like to continue to do socially in my life is to maintain a healthy relationship with a small group of people and to this end being helpful is required.

 

[Pyropyro]

Nobody is ever forced into leadership in jobs like this. It's an offer for you to take up if you want, then you have to prove you can do it. All very relaxed.

I don't know Archie. The proving phase is very unrelaxing for me.

Technical leadership, meaning I did both. I made architectural decisions and designs, then needed to communicate and get the teams to accept it.

That's what I'm doing right now but with Inventions. I get a kick from making people accept stuff that I made even if I have to revise it a bit.

Sure it's not 29%? Just kidding, I find that more than 30% of my time is taken up with "non-INTP" stuff anyhow.

you ought to increase it to at least 29.99% :P I have no family of my own yet (so lesser responsibilities) so I guess I have more time for INTP stuff.

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

Yeaaah, I got verbal abuse back so much, it was starting to really affect on another level.

I had to do something, I couldn't not see someone in pain/suffering, know something which could help and walk away, but I also couldn't continually being beat down for trying to help, lol.

I said to my psychiatrist at one point "How do you walk away from someone you see suffering, but know you can help? I can't do that, and i'm afraid it'll become a pattern and i'll turn into a monster/sociopath. (ending up selfish and oblivious to others pain/suffering).

So yeah it sucks.
Tact doesn't really help at all, lol.

I refuse to "sell" the idea or advice, because I feel that manipulating, and I have huggge issues with that.

It's a difficult one to accept. I've been burned over and over for just trying to help.


Something which rattles my cage though, is spending 1hr+ on an accurate, helpful, well wishes response to a question or problem. You'd think, INTP takes time on something it's going to be right/good/the best? Yeah me too... and it IS, but those motherfuckers pick people who say "me to :O", ugh! It's not even that they did that, I understand that action (as stupid as it may be) but to not deal with a problem when opportunity presents itself, only to bring more drama up another time... pouring rain on additional peeps heads...

ARGH! AND PEOPLE ACCEPT IT!!!

I don't have a problem with Women at all (except my mother and sister, lol), but they talk, empathise, connect, problem shared and all that, then there partner comes along, see's tears, tries to help, to fix it so doesn't happen again, and HE gets it in the NECK!!

"Why don't you just listen to me!" is the WTF moment.
Ofc, she means just listen, he thinks as listen to problem and then to fix.

I really don't have a problem with women, actually get on better with than most guys because of my aggression, but SERIOUSLY, how the HELL do WOMEN expect us to watch them experience the same unresolved problem over and over again, suffer/cry whatever and lash out accusing of not caring when try to help...

Feminists jokes aside, Women don't belong in the kitchen...
they clearly belong in freakin' school!!!








I concur though, INTPs shouldn't try to help people, lol.

 

[Inquisitor]

yeah, there's quite a bit of arguing over semantics here...

"help" is such a broad word. I'm an ESL teacher and I have to "help" my students everyday. The practice of teaching enlivens the senses and is extremely stimulating...but...not using my core Ti enough...feel like something is missing. Emotionally, feels good to help my students though, but I'm wondering if this can become like a drug addiction of sorts...will open a thread on this.

The context is so important. I give my students advice everyday, and they lap it up. It always amazes me, because it's pretty basic stuff I tell them.

I've found the key to "helping" people, including my many hundreds of students, is to answer their questions very concisely and to the point. To exclusively focus on what they're asking from you and nothing else. To anticipate what they want to hear from you, and then to deliver it. And then whatever you do...don't inject even a HINT of your ego into it even if they disagree with you, disbelieve what you have to say, or seem not to hear you. If it's the last two...they generally just want to vent/whine and all you have to say is something along the lines of "you're still a great person, everything will be ok."

Unsolicited advice is generally a no-no for INTPs...you have to ask yourself why you even want to give the person advice? Generally it's just to please your own ego. Sometimes can be helpful though, especially in professional settings...

 

[Polaris]

ask your wife

Helping is not when you support someone in something what you think is good.
In definition it means to support other thoughts, not yours. If you think someone do something wrong and try to make someone to do something, what you think is good is not helping, but manipulation. I know something about it ;D

True help is always selfless.

Pessimists can't help people.
To help means to give energy to realize goals.
Only optimists, who believe someone will succed can support. Pessimists see everywhere problems and say that something what succed, then they discourage.

Everyone what something different, you can't know what is good or bad for someone.

Sometimes I think to best help is to do nothing. People need understand something, not hear advice which they don't understand, it goes nowhere. Let them fail. Let them learn.

^ Pretty much. The personal emotional/experience part of learning is what makes it real, and thus propels personal growth. We can only act as supporting mechanisms, when needed.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

To really help someone involves asking the right questions. To help them question themselves. I've also found telling your own story related to their plight can help set the stage for self examination. Then give space....but really their own circumstances will push and prod them into making their decision which in turn will give more information for the next time.

 

[StevenM]

It really depends on the dilemma and the person(s) involved. My knowledge and level of advice is limited. Also, I wouldn't categorize my suggestion as the true fact of all time; I can only offer an opinion based on my individual perception.

I find it interesting when people seek advice, that they will avoid telling of certain things, or lie, when it is easy to make a judgement of their character. Thus, to get an accurate account of events, it may be important to come off as completely open, safe, and confidential.

Also, I believe I'm more better at pin-pointing what can go wrong, or the cause of a conflict. At the time, my solution may seem good, but usually afterwards I realize it's shortcomings.

Sometimes, the people close to me love hearing my opinions and advice, but do nothing to follow through with them. But it also scares me when my suggestions do get diligently followed. In some way, I have attained responsibility for their actions as well as my own. From this, I learned to encourage people to think for themselves, and allow them to make their own decisions.

I can wholly sympathize with someone, even to the point of tears, especially when they partake suffering when I'm convinced it's through hardly any fault of their own.

The fuel that drives my pity runs low quickly, when the same mistake leading to the same problem occurs frequently, and the advisee starts feeling entitled to my sympathies. Actually, my disposition remains calm as long as the latter does not happen.

But back to offering advice and suggestions - Usually there's a lot of being quiet and listening, some questions, and trying to find from my life to compare to. It's actually much more about learning of the other person and getting to know them better, than it is about trying to fix and resolve all their problems.

 

[StevenM]

I refuse to "sell" the idea or advice, because I feel that manipulating, and I have huggge issues with that.

Influence is everywhere, and effects everyone. You can almost call it a natural part of human life.

It's strange and ironic, but succumbing to it is the first step to breaking free.

 

[WALKYRIA]

I don't think it's a type thing... just saying.

 

[Architect]

I don't think it's a type thing... just saying.

Then why aren't INTP's flocking to the service and care industries?

 

[StevenM]

Then why aren't INTP's flocking to the service and care industries?

**************************

MBTI TEST

Question - Are you good with helping people?

if yes, then score point for NF
if no, then score point for NT

Question - Do you like to keep things clean?

If no, score point for INTP
If yes, score point for SJ

RESULT - You are type .........


*************************************
The types are just a human-constructed categorization of traits. By definition, feelers encompass more sympathetic and caring traits, while thinkers are categorized as less so.

For instance, do you like sports? If yes, you are category A. If no, category B. There shouldn't be much complicated analysis going on when we find that category B's aren't flocking to sport's stadiums.

Bringing it back to the core, it's the individual decides which category he falls under.

It used to be amusing to me when I found that the majority of INTP's:
-procrastinate
-don't clean their rooms
-are considered lazy.
-are good problem solvers.

It was kind of pathetic to be amused by this. The MBTI test, and type definitions are the causes responsible for grouping these individuals by trait in this manner.

I think in reality, traits are more mashed up in different combinations, and can be more randomly scattered between people. When a group of traits frequently correspond together, there may be more to look into; a more scientific, or logical reason for the link between them.

 

[Jennywocky]

Influence is everywhere, and effects everyone. You can almost call it a natural part of human life.

It's strange and ironic, but succumbing to it is the first step to breaking free.

meh. There are different levels of "influence." I think it's possible to try to take it too far and not intervene whatsoever (which is to basically not to have a relationship with anyone), but in general I would say it's a fair comment for INTPs and strongly individual types to dislike purposefully trying to "force" someone's opinion.

Manipulation/Influence often can involve purposefully excluding data, for example, in order to get someone to do what you want. I have a strong repulsion to that. As an Informative, I prefer to lay it out for a person so that they can see important information and come to their own conclusion versus me trying to do a "hard sell" on something. Sometimes I do end up having strong opinions, but they are conclusions I've reached while trying to be honest with myself; and I'll typically present both the arguments both for and against the position and let them make up their own mind anyway, if they have not yet heard the various positions.

So, "influence"? It's a slippery term. To interact at all is to influence in some way, but there's mostly "hands off" influence up to "twist their arm / scare the crap out of them to win their support" influence, and some forms seem more honest to me than others.

I think it's also tied into "desire to lead groups." I'd rather coordinate with a bunch of similar-goaled individuals, versus dictate to people what they would do and have to be responsible for their decisions; if we're all individuals, how can I take responsibility for what should be their choices? Can't they make their own decisions?

 

[Architect]

I think in reality, traits are more mashed up in different combinations, and can be more randomly scattered between people. When a group of traits frequently correspond together, there may be more to look into; a more scientific, or logical reason for the link between them.

Yes of course they can. This is elementary hidden variables theory, if you guys studied that a little bit it would all be obvious. Traits aren't 1-1 to type, they're 1-2. The 2 stands in for Type and for Personality, which is the learned 'you' that changes over your lifetime. So, one INTP's Type is the same as the other INTP's Type, pretty much, but they can have wildly different learned personalities which looks confusing.

But not to a hidden Markov model! Statistically you can see the INTP hidden variable Type in all INTP's, no question.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes of course they can. This is elementary hidden variables theory, if you guys studied that a little bit it would all be obvious. Traits aren't 1-1 to type, they're 1-2. The 2 stands in for Type and for Personality, which is the learned 'you' that changes over your lifetime. So, one INTP's Type is the same as the other INTP's Type, pretty much, but they can have wildly different learned personalities which looks confusing.

But not to a hidden Markov model! Statistically you can see the INTP hidden variable Type in all INTP's, no question.

Can you explain this? Or tell me where to go where I can read about this?

 

[Architect]

Can you explain this? Or tell me where to go where I can read about this?

Search it, HMM's are everywhere, look at Wikipedia.

In a hidden Markov model, the state is not directly visible, but output, dependent on the state, is visible.

The concept is simple enough. We're presuming a state - Type or more precisely functions, that we can't observe. We can observe output (behavior) which correlates in a non 1-1 manner to state. We don't have the observational methods to actually do a HMM on a persons type (in the future computers will be able to do this to determine type) but in theory we could. So instead we do a 'jackleg heuristic' to mentally statistically aggregate a persons behavior to determine their type.

Should be easy, that's how many of our brain processes already work, if not the entire brain.

 

[redbaron]

It's a pretty big leap to try and purport that behaviours are subject to the Markov property as opposed to being a much more complicated, context-dependent stochastic process.

The idea would be, "nice" but wishful thinking rarely entails accuracy.

 

[EditorOne]

Just a sort of aside:

We're all looking at this as though the INTP can't help people because of the INTPness. Sometimes, quite a bit maybe, the problem is simply that the recipient of the help doesn't want it because then they would be implicitly accepting someone else's boon. It kind of goes beyond even "feeling obligated." I've had people who had a work problem, who took my advice (ie, my 'analysis') right down to the bone, who succeeded because of it, and then liked me a little bit less forever after. Something to do with self-worth surrounding their ability to make their own success or something, perhaps.
And if you go the other way, for instance, let someone have free rein on a project because that's what you'd want if you were in their shoes, some people assume you are setting them up to fail and take the blame.
All this is why I increasingly dislike people. I am on my way to being one of those guys who yells at kids to get off his lawn....

 

[Architect]

It's a pretty big leap to try and purport that behaviours are subject to the Markov property as opposed to being a much more complicated, context-dependent stochastic process. The idea would be, "nice" but wishful thinking rarely entails accuracy.

I didn't say they're subject to a Markov property - I'm not even sure what that means. I'm saying that I believe the process of discerning type is similar to using a Markov model to discern hidden variables. It's hardly wishful thinking but simply an analogy. Going farther and saying it's actually stochastic process is an even bigger leap that I'm not even close to.

We're all looking at this as though the INTP can't help people because of the INTPness.

Yes

Sometimes, quite a bit maybe, the problem is simply that the recipient of the help doesn't want it because then they would be implicitly accepting someone else's boon.

Fully agree, people are cantankerous. However I'm trying to explain how, for example, my ESFP MIL can help everybody around here successful where I keep failing. The people we're trying to help aren't that different. Clearly she has skills that I don't. Partially I think it's the great S/N divide. S types just speak the same language and we don't quite make it. I think people are more receptive to her (also being S's generally) than they are to me.

All this is why I increasingly dislike people. I am on my way to being one of those guys who yells at kids to get off his lawn....

Unfortunately too true for me also, particularly with S types. The N's are pretty self contained and don't bug me, but the S types won't change. Why bother talking to them? I know exactly what they're going to say. Every one I know is a wind up bunny doing the same damn thing day after day, there's no point in even saying hello and I don't bother.

I'll admit having it up to here with the Archetype. Born into an all S family, in an all S extended family (I might have one distant cousin who I think is an N), and falling in with all S group of friends as I grew up, to working with nothing but S types. I'm sick of it!

 

[Inquisitor]

Unfortunately too true for me also, particularly with S types. The N's are pretty self contained and don't bug me, but the S types won't change. Why bother talking to them? I know exactly what they're going to say. Every one I know is a wind up bunny doing the same damn thing day after day, there's no point in even saying hello and I don't bother.

I'll admit having it up to here with the Archetype. Born into an all S family, in an all S extended family (I might have one distant cousin who I think is an N), and falling in with all S group of friends as I grew up, to working with nothing but S types. I'm sick of it!

LOL! I can relate, my parents are both sensors, mother ISFP, father likely ISTP or ISTJ (he took Drenth's type identifier). Dad loves to stick to the same damn routine every single day. Not one iota of difference. The only thing new are the patients he sees at work (he's an oncologist) and the news he consumes on TV/online. Otherwise his views on life have remained static. He's probably going to die doing the same things he's been doing for the past 40 years. Mom of course loves adventures and gets stir-crazy easily, so at least with her, she took us on some awesome trips around the world when I was a lot younger, but we don't share very many intellectual interests unfortunately, can be very frustrating at times...I am curious though, aren't there other INTP software engineers who work with you? There must be a ton of them...I hear our type is very common in Silicon Valley.