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INTPs bodies and subtypes

read my post first; I'm more:


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Inquisitor

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I never mentioned a barrier. That is a straw man. I said distance. I know that distance is not a barrier. What I would represent distance as is synonymous with time. It doesn't block anything it just delays everything.

I think you're going off the deep end here. In reality, the very minute delay that occurs between origination and termination of nerve impulses (even to the end of the extremities) is not enough to introduce any kind of perceptible disconnection between the body and the mind. Maybe some Zen masters are able to go that far, but we're talking 80 milliseconds here at most.

Despite this delay, the whole nervous system is wired in a way to produce a cohesive, integrated picture of reality so that you don't notice the lag. IOW, your brain doesn't want you to know that there was any kind of latency at all. Obviously, we evolved this way for a reason, although I don't care to speculate why atm.

The fun thing about neuroscience is that you can do the experiments on yourself. David Eagleman of the Baylor College of Medicine proceeded to treat us as his test subjects. By means of several visual illusions, he demonstrated that we are all living in the past: Our consciousness lags 80 milliseconds behind actual events. "When you think an event occurs it has already happened," Eagleman said.

In one of these illusions, the flash-lag effect, a light flashes when an object moves past it, but we don't see the two as coincident; there appears to be a slight offset between them. By varying the parameters of the experiment, Eagleman showed that this occurs because the brain tries to reconstruct events retroactively and occasionally gets it wrong. The reason, he suggested, is that our brains seek to create a cohesive picture of the world from stimuli that arrive at a range of times. If you touch your toe and nose at the same time, you feel them at the same time, even though the signal from your nose reaches your brain first. You hear and see a hand clap at the same time, even though auditory processing is faster than visual processing. Our brains also paper over gaps in information, such as eyeblinks. "Your consciousness goes through all the trouble to synchronize things," Eagleman said. But that means the slowest signal sets the pace.

Scientific American

In any case, this thread is about the relationship between psychological type and physical constitution. Despite the fact that this idea concerning time delays introducing a perceptible separation between mind and body is bunk, it doesn't address the topic of this thread.

I've already made clear my stance that the body and mind do not develop separately. The whole thing grows as one. Therefore, each psychological orientation (type) will have a relatively narrow bell curve in terms of its associated physical constitution, and there are only 7 different ones of those.

Ancient medicine is well.. ancient. 5,000 years ago it may have seemed like putting an arrow through the heart of a man killed him dead. However his mind would live on for a brief period until he lost consciousness. About 20 seconds for consciousness and 3-4 minutes for all brain activity to cease. He would not be able to communicate with you and his eyes may be glazed over ( no activity in that department ) but something in his mind is still working. At least until the true end of life has been reached.

There is no conceivable way for them to have known this. That is why I would call it convenient. It is the same reason the Earth was once believed to be flat. If you don't have evidence on hand to know the entire truth the most convenient thing to do is to go on what you know. Which is what they did.

No offense, but you know not of what you speak. Both my parents are physicians. I'm well-acquainted with the capabilities of modern medicine. I've also read volumes on Ayurveda/Chinese Medicine and consulted with numerous physicians in both those disciplines. You are suffering from chronocentrism. They knew more about certain things back then than we do now. Science is actually playing catch-up when it comes to preventive medicine. Also why do you automatically assume that they did not know that brain activity continues for 3-4 minutes after death? You really think near-death experiences (NDE) are unique to our time? You don't need a fancy piece of tech to figure this out.

This is another straw man. I did not state that the mind drew cravings from the body. I know that the body offers no input on craving. It all comes from the mind. The body however does offer illness as a response. Upset stomach? Those signals come from your stomach not your mind.

This is why I gave the example of pie. My mind may want that last bite but my stomach is telling my mind no. That creates a conflict between two entities. The conflict takes place in the mind because it also serves the purpose of being the endpoint.

This is getting awfully metaphysical...If the conflict occurs in the mind, and you observe that conflict, can it really be said that you live in the mind but not the body? IOW, does your consciousness favor the mind over the body? I don't think it does, but it is capable of perceiving the origin of sensory stimuli vs. thought vs. emotion. That's how you know that the "upset stomach" feeling comes from the stomach and isn't a thought...LOL

Seems a bit too assertive to me.

Only b/c you haven't had enough time to really investigate this for yourself.

I saw that. I don't see anything in ear placement that has to do with body type.

You didn't read till the very end where I posted pictures.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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Average height, small-medium bone frame size, average weight, BMI 21-22, bony pelvis, chicken legs, overbite, poor eyesight, mole on the bottom of one foot, slight scoliosis, asthma and allergies, stooped shoulders, high arches, and a knob on the back of my cranium. Not type related.

Hawt
 

Inquisitor

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The premise, All INTPs are not thick-set, seems like a very weak premise and can be falsified by 1 fat intp.

Good luck finding one...I've tried. FWIW, here's a website that tries to categorize celebrities according to type:

Famous INTPs

Now, the guy doing the typing is not going to have a 100% success rate (no one is that good), so you might disagree (as I do) with a couple of the celebs on there. That said, I could not find a single fat INTP on that whole page.

Go to the INTJ page though:

Famous INTJs

And I've already picked out multiple endomorphs: Hitchens, Keynes, Schwarzenegger, Russell Crowe, Jay-Z, and others.

Not saying it's scientific by any stretch, but the right way to type is looking at the ear.
 

Black Rose

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I've already made clear my stance that the body and mind do not develop separately. The whole thing grows as one. Therefore, each psychological orientation (type) will have a relatively narrow bell curve in terms of its associated physical constitution, and there are only 7 different ones of those.

Can you give the feature of those 7?

My BMI is 20.1 and I am an ectomorph.

What meditation practice works best for them according to ayurveda medicine?
 

Intolerable

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I think you're going off the deep end here. In reality, the very minute delay that occurs between origination and termination of nerve impulses (even to the end of the extremities) is not enough to introduce any kind of perceptible disconnection between the body and the mind. Maybe some Zen masters are able to go that far, but we're talking 80 milliseconds here at most.

We perceive this delay all the time as humans. From when you turn on a hot faucet to where the signals from your fingers telling you to pull away is always a tad late. This is because the brain can't know the water is too hot until the nerves have told it so. We don't usually get burned because the delay isn't that significant but we do sometimes get burned. Especially if the faucet was turned on very recently.

A mosquito will almost always sting you before you can react to it. It isn't that we aren't fast enough to swat it. It's because by the time the nerve signal has reached our brain, the mosquito has gotten what it needed. All we can do is smash it on our arm.

Despite this delay, the whole nervous system is wired in a way to produce a cohesive, integrated picture of reality so that you don't notice the lag. IOW, your brain doesn't want you to know that there was any kind of latency at all. Obviously, we evolved this way for a reason, although I don't care to speculate why atm.
This is more baseless assertion. We notice these delays all the time. Yes, they absolutely do play a role in our development. The nervous system works as good as it can possibly work but distance is still distance. So long as there is distance there is time and with time, a different perception of what is versus what was.

No, I don't think I'm overthinking this. I find it to be pretty simple and observable in the world.


I've already made clear my stance that the body and mind do not develop separately. The whole thing grows as one. Therefore, each psychological orientation (type) will have a relatively narrow bell curve in terms of its associated physical constitution, and there are only 7 different ones of those.
You are throwing out strawmen again. I never said the mind and body develop separately. ALL things loosely entwined develop relatively close. From mind to body, to mate and sibling to children and pets. We're all connected in ways that make proper sense. A pet will sometimes inherit the behavior of its owner and children obviously inherit the behavior of their parents. For the sake of giving this phenomenon a label we can call it psychological gravity.

My point to you is that as distance grows, so does time. The distance between mind and body make it so that the form appears as one to something much further away. Like one human peering at another human. And then even further one human peering at a bird in the sky. Distance separates us so we're all effectively in the same boat. We're set against what is to live in the what was. The degree of which is ruled by distance.




No offense, but you know not of what you speak. Both my parents are physicians. I'm well-acquainted with the capabilities of modern medicine. I've also read volumes on Ayurveda/Chinese Medicine and consulted with numerous physicians in both those disciplines. You are suffering from chronocentrism. They knew more about certain things back then than we do now. Science is actually playing catch-up when it comes to preventive medicine. Also why do you automatically assume that they did not know that brain activity continues for 3-4 minutes after death? You really think near-death experiences (NDE) are unique to our time? You don't need a fancy piece of tech to figure this out.
That's great but I don't see what any of that has to do with acceptance of the most obvious here. 5,000 years ago they did not know that the brain held so much significance in the body. That is why Egyptians left the heart in the body but pulled out the brains and chucked them aside. The reason is that they believed memory resided in the heart, not the brain.

This is getting awfully metaphysical...If the conflict occurs in the mind, and you observe that conflict, can it really be said that you live in the mind but not the body? IOW, does your consciousness favor the mind over the body? I don't think it does, but it is capable of perceiving the origin of sensory stimuli vs. thought vs. emotion. That's how you know that the "upset stomach" feeling comes from the stomach and isn't a thought...LOL
The body is something we make use of, as a puppeteer. It is as close to us as anything will get in our natural lives. So of course we make use of it. Much like we would a pair of dentures if needed or a hearing aid.

We happen to be our brains. The heart while great has been proven to be a replaceable component of our puppet. Though the brain, the center of who we are, will likely never see the same fate.

The body heavily influences our conscious thought. For the reason of proximity. Think about this. What if your body was 20 miles away? Would you get more sensory input from it or from the eyes and ears attached to your brain? There would be a greater distance involved with your body. So naturally you would grow closer to whatever is in closer proximity and attempt to puppeteer that instead.

It isn't that the body has higher level reasoning or anything like that. It is simply a device we use to associate to the what was. We're never truly in the what is because of proximity. But that isn't really important here. What's important is to note that the mind and body are separate things.

Only b/c you haven't had enough time to really investigate this for yourself.
That's possible but I feel safe to assume an overweight INTP exists. Especially so with the given cultural influences and wealth of humankind.


You didn't read till the very end where I posted pictures.
I did actually. The pictures were of people like John Goodman ( one of my favorite actors ). Again, I don't see what ear position has to do with it. My own ears are about where his are and I've been an ecto my entire life.
 

Inquisitor

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My point to you is that as distance grows, so does time. The distance between mind and body make it so that the form appears as one to something much further away. Like one human peering at another human. And then even further one human peering at a bird in the sky. Distance separates us so we're all effectively in the same boat. We're set against what is to live in the what was. The degree of which is ruled by distance.

So you're saying they're separate b/c they don't occupy the exact same location in time and space? I agree with you there.

Getting back to the topic of the thread...There are two possibilities: 1) you believe psychological type and physical constitution are not related, or 2) they are highly correlated.

The body heavily influences our conscious thought.

That's correct.

That's possible but I feel safe to assume an overweight INTP exists. Especially so with the given cultural influences and wealth of humankind.

OK then find one.

I did actually. The pictures were of people like John Goodman ( one of my favorite actors ). Again, I don't see what ear position has to do with it. My own ears are about where his are and I've been an ecto my entire life.

No your ears are not at the same level if you truly have been ecto your whole life as you say. It's physiologically impossible. Ecto means skinny like Eddie Redmayne or maybe a bit more enveloped. Have someone take a picture of you from the side and you will see that the bottom of the entrance to your ear canal will be slightly above where the bottom of your nose intersects with your upper lip. Alternatively face a mirror straight-on with the plane of your face as close to parallel with the surface of the mirror as possible. You can see it there as well.

If you don't pass this test, you're not actually ecto, and INTP is also questionable.
 

Intolerable

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So you're saying they're separate b/c they don't occupy the exact same location in time and space? I agree with you there.

Getting back to the topic of the thread...There are two possibilities: 1) you believe psychological type and physical constitution are not related, or 2) they are highly correlated.

I don't see what body type has to do with personality.


That's correct.

Signals from your body influence the way you think. Whether you are of one body type or another doesn't. That is what I meant to be more apt.

If body type determined our personality then why is it dog breeds tend to act like other dog breeds if they are around that breed more than their own?

OK then find one.

I believe the burden of proof is on you.

No your ears are not at the same level if you truly have been ecto your whole life as you say. It's physiologically impossible. Ecto means skinny like Eddie Redmayne or maybe a bit more enveloped. Have someone take a picture of you from the side and you will see that the bottom of the entrance to your ear canal will be slightly above where the bottom of your nose intersects with your upper lip. Alternatively face a mirror straight-on with the plane of your face as close to parallel with the surface of the mirror as possible. You can see it there as well.

If you don't pass this test, you're not actually ecto, and INTP is also questionable.


Everyone's ear canal is above their nostrils at a certain angle. John Goodman has a lot of fat on his neck that doesn't allow you to see what angle he is actually holding his head at. The position looks to be that of a thinker which usually means the chin is held out to some degree. That would put his nostrils above his ear canal.

The one of Jessie Ventura is a head on profile. He isn't looking up but right ahead.

Eddie Redmayne's head is titled down. Evidenced in both pictures by the line of his jaw.

Look at the John Goodman picture again. See where his jaw meets and where his chin is. That gives you a pretty good indication that his jaw is completely parallel with his chin in that picture. Even if his neck suggests otherwise. He's also sort of snarling in that photo which draws the nostrils up.
 

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If body type determined our personality then why is it dog breeds tend to act like other dog breeds if they are around that breed more than their own?

I never said body type determined psychological type. I said they develop together.

I believe the burden of proof is on you.

I don't have to prove anything. I am writing this for your benefit. Like I said, you're free to disagree. I'm telling you this for your edification b/c you bothered to write. I assert my views and then expect people to verify them at their leisure. There are loads of books on this idea that have been written by people from many different civilizations, and this includes western psychologists as well. It's certainly not a new concept. Human beings from different locales have independently discovered the same patterns time and again throughout history.

Everyone's ear canal is above their nostrils at a certain angle. John Goodman has a lot of fat on his neck that doesn't allow you to see what angle he is actually holding his head at. The position looks to be that of a thinker which usually means the chin is held out to some degree. That would put his nostrils above his ear canal.

The one of Jessie Ventura is a head on profile. He isn't looking up but right ahead.

Eddie Redmayne's head is titled down. Evidenced in both pictures by the line of his jaw.

Look at the John Goodman picture again. See where his jaw meets and where his chin is. That gives you a pretty good indication that his jaw is completely parallel with his chin in that picture. Even if his neck suggests otherwise. He's also sort of snarling in that photo which draws the nostrils up.

The pictures are not perfect. They are illustrative. I am passing on this information to you for your education/entertainment. I didn't invent this technique. I learned it from Ayurvedic practitioners. It's part of what they use to categorize people according to constitutional type. That is the foundation of Ayurvedic medicine. If you can't accurately categorize a patient, then treatment is impossible. They've been doing it this way for thousands of years.

You're free to take it or leave it, and if you're really interested in pursuing this topic further, you can verify what I'm saying by consulting with a proper Ayurvedic physician. Better yet, if you ever travel to India, there are loads of doctors over there who would be happy to describe how this works to you in person. Understand that this is not just a matter of philosophy/metaphysics, it has practical, life and death utility.
 

Inquisitor

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Since this endokaphamesopittaectovata concept has been brought up, I've spent a few minutes here and there trying to figure out my body type.

It's just that when you look at examples of body types, they always have the endomorphs pudgy and without definition. So if you have the lady bumps and are still on the lower end of the normal weight range, it's confusing. Looks like I'm a lowfat blueberry endomorph.

When I realized that my INTJ was an ectomorph, I saw the differences. I'm thin, sometimes even scrawny, but I can't be called bony. My bones only stick out in the knobby places. With him, though he arguably has just as much "meat on his bones" as I do, just seems more bony. He looks skinny, even now that he's finally putting on a little weight (he just turned 34.. it was only a matter of time, considering how he eats).

Also, how are we supposed to tease out whether we are more logical or intuitive? They go together.

Animekitty said:
Can you give the feature of those 7?

My BMI is 20.1 and I am an ectomorph.

What meditation practice works best for them according to ayurveda medicine?

@Animekitty: I recommend Mindfulness in Plain English
by Henepola Gunaratana, otherwise known as "Bhante G." Don't do more than 30 minutes a day though.

@Yellow & Animekitty:

The following page is the best all-around general description of the 6 major constitutional types that I could find. The "Balanced" and VPK types mentioned by the author are rare enough to be irrelevant for our discussion, but for completeness, they bring the total count to 8. I have read several of the author's books. He was the first westerner to actually obtain an Ayurvedic medical degree in India.

Robert Svoboda

There are 3 major poles (vata, pitta, kapha) and 3 dual constitutions. Body shape is only one of the characteristics. That's why Sheldon was only scratching the surface when he was talking about endomorphy, mesomorphy, and ectomorphy. There's a whole constellation of physical and psychological characteristics that tend to go together.

Some of the other characteristics that get examined are:

body frame
weight
skin color and complexion
skin characteristics
sweat
head hair
nails
eyes
mouth
appetite
breakfast (hard to believe I know :) )
digestion and evacuation
menstruation
climate preference
sex drive
physical strength and endurance
pulse
sleep
dreams
vocal qualities
characteristic emotion
personality traits
predominant mode of expression
mind
memory
lifestyle habits

Notice that body weight is not given much priority b/c it is too unreliable. Body frame, however, gives a much more accurate picture. Basically, look at the skeletal proportions, not the amount of flesh/fat around the bones.

Here are two diagrams I drew to make this easier to understand:

Ayurvedic Constitutions.jpg
The triangle is the right way to visualize this. It matches up with what western thinkers such as WH Sheldon and Ernst Kretschmer have found.

INTP Constitution.jpg
It is my opinion that INTPs fall into the red bell curve I have drawn on the picture. As you can see, some will fall more towards mesomorphy and others towards ectomorphy, but they will be somewhere between the two. It's possible that the curve extends further along than what I've drawn, but I've never seen a purely mesomorphic INTP. I have seen predominantly ectomorphic INTPs though (I am one for instance. :)
 
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