INTPs as lawyers

[Matt1210]

Hi all I'm Matt. I'm new to this forum - really enjoyed reading through the threads here, e.g. 'Ask Architect' was super helpful and interesting.

I'm wondering if there are any INTP lawyers here? I'm a divorce lawyer and thinking about a change of direction, possibly to another field of law, e.g. intellectual property (patents, designs, trademarks, copyright).

Some context: I got into family law because it sounded exciting and fulfilling, and above all - 'people focused'. After some years in the business, I realise now that this was probably Fe leading me astray...

So I've had a think about other types of law, and how suited each MBTI type would be to them. Ideas below - as mentioned, my feeling is that intellectual property law is best fit for INTPs - eg Einstein was a patents clerk - but still have reservations over how fulfilling this work would actually be.

Legal disciplines & MBTI types:

1. Extroverted thinkers only? (ExTx)
- Commercial law, e.g. mergers, acquisitions
- Commercial disputes: e.g. contractual
- Real estate (buying / selling / commercial)
- Negligence
- Criminal
- Defamation

[Generally: Client probably wants a more aggressive, pushy type. Someone who thrives in a charged, competitive environment]

2. Extroverted thinkers or feelers only? (Exxx)
- Family law (divorce, child custody): EXXX
- Human rights: EXXX

[Generally: Again, client will probably want a pushier type, but also room for 'feeling' types here.]

3. Introverts preferred?

Personal affairs:
- Wills, tax planning (ISTJ)
- Prenuptial agreements (*)(ISTX)

Intellectual property:
- Patents, copyright, trademarks, industrial designs (XXTX)

- Constitutional law (XXTX)

Thoughts welcome!

 

[Pyropyro]

Intellectual property:
- Patents, copyright, trademarks, industrial designs (XXTX)

Thoughts welcome!

Since I've worked with various IP lawyers, I thought I could chime in. I think it's IXTX.

I agree that Thinkers have a better time with IP's since it is more about analysis than people skills.

You still need some social skills to talk with your clients but they're not the priority. People will pay you to disprove the claims of their rival's IP or argue with the IP office that your client's IP is a valid one.

 

[Polaris]

I've had a brush with environmental law and really enjoyed it. The intricate network of the legislative system is subject to constant change and there is a need for people who can navigate that system in oder to translate and communicate existing and new Federal and State legislation and amendments to interest groups.

I enjoyed the process where you are responsible for the analysis of project proposals. These are often in excess of 100 page documents written by environmental consultants and/or planners, commissioned by a certain company or government institutions.

The interesting part of the approval process is the analysis of the mehods the interest parties are using to get their project through the legislative process. This is a research-intensive process which requires extreme attention to detail and a very high level of critical, but also non-biased analytical skill. You have to be highly adept at interpreting language and creative in finding efficient solutions that will avoid bogging the process down in unnecessary red tape while still ensuring compliance is maintained.

The environmental impact assessment should ensure compliance in theory, but can be subject to abuse through sloppy scoping, poor research mehods and a desire to cut corners for the sake of reducing cost.

The challenge and point of interest is the level of lobbying and personal connections that become apparent if you have a really good eye for inconsistencies. For example, upon deeper investigation a proposal has been approved where the council members who approved the project in the interim turn out to be members of the same interest group closely associated with the proponents.

I enjoyed the work because of it's investigative nature, and imagine it would be appealing to any nuance of the NT temperament.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i wouldn't be able to get over the fact that "intellectual property" means infringement of free communication and so is incongruent with my idea of a justice system.

 

[Architect]

My general advice for situations like this is to look more to the specifics of a particular job rather than try to analyze it by field. Sure, it might be that Criminal Law generally requires a more extraverted high power personality, but I'll bet there are many positions in that that would work great for an INTP too.

For example, my division is filled with ISTJ's and ISTP's. They're everywhere, I have five in my small group alone. This branch of scientific engineering attracts them like flies. But at that I found (and made, and my boss made for me) a perfect little niche for an INTP. These other guys frankly don't have much desire for exploration, but prefer to keep doing the same thing over and over. So whenever there's a speculative project guess who gets it? These are ideas that we have no idea how to do or make money at but are worth investigating. So for six months to a year I get carte blanche to come up with something with little oversight.

It's a useful counter balance to the heavy ISTJ focus, but you wouldn't have guessed I'd be here a-priori*. And these other types would be extremely uncomfortable with the open-endedness of my projects. Hell, they make me a little uncomfortable sometimes! I'm left wondering half the time if they'll go anywhere at all or if I can find any solution that will work.

So anyhow once you have your field I recommend that INTP's work to find a particular job niche for themselves that works.

* Another example is Paul Wolfowitz who I believe is also an INTP. He likewise carved a niche for himself in the ES/IS heavy Bush Whitehouse.

 

[Analyzer]

i wouldn't be able to get over the fact that "intellectual property" means infringement of free communication and so is incongruent with my idea of a justice system.

Yeah its pretty hilarious actually. Whoever has the means to determine what is intellectual "property" gets to decide how people transfer information or communication. Nice loophole against free speech.

 

[Matt1210]

Since I've worked with various IP lawyers, I thought I could chime in. I think it's IXTX.

I agree that Thinkers have a better time with IP's since it is more about analysis than people skills.

You still need some social skills to talk with your clients but they're not the priority. People will pay you to disprove the claims of their rival's IP or argue with the IP office that your client's IP is a valid one.

As you say, Intellectual Property does seem a more cerebral field of law - more investigation, interpretation, analysis, creativity - so more Ti than Te I'm guessing.

Interesting also how IP work falls into the INTPs' 2 main preoccupations: scientific (patents, industrial designs) and arts (copyright, trademarks etc.) My own background (pre law) was languages, music, publishing, so the second route seems most appropriate, although I wonder if looking at software ownership disputes might also be an area 'on the up'. Have you tended to focus on any particular area of IP?

I've had a brush with environmental law and really enjoyed it. The intricate network of the legislative system is subject to constant change and there is a need for people who can navigate that system in oder to translate and communicate existing and new Federal and State legislation and amendments to interest groups.

I enjoyed the process where you are responsible for the analysis of project proposals. These are often in excess of 100 page documents written by environmental consultants and/or planners, commissioned by a certain company or government institutions.

The interesting part of the approval process is the analysis of the mehods the interest parties are using to get their project through the legislative process. This is a research-intensive process which requires extreme attention to detail and a very high level of critical, but also non-biased analytical skill. You have to be highly adept at interpreting language and creative in finding efficient solutions that will avoid bogging the process down in unnecessary red tape while still ensuring compliance is maintained.

The environmental impact assessment should ensure compliance in theory, but can be subject to abuse through sloppy scoping, poor research mehods and a desire to cut corners for the sake of reducing cost.

The challenge and point of interest is the level of lobbying and personal connections that become apparent if you have a really good eye for inconsistencies. For example, upon deeper investigation a proposal has been approved where the council members who approved the project in the interim turn out to be members of the same interest group closely associated with the proponents.

I enjoyed the work because of it's investigative nature, and imagine it would be appealing to any nuance of the NT temperament.

This sounds really interesting - I will take a closer look. Will probably set myself some case studies - seems the best way to get a taste. Again 'looking for inconsistencies' - this sounds very Ti.

In the experience you mention, I'm guessing you were working for government? Strikes me that working for government generally is a better place for the less extroverted.

i wouldn't be able to get over the fact that "intellectual property" means infringement of free communication and so is incongruent with my idea of a justice system.

I have a similar reservation - also regarding the effects of a legal system whose root purpose is arguably to protect the rights of property owners. I wonder if this might be of interest as its own thread.

My general advice for situations like this is to look more to the specifics of a particular job rather than try to analyze it by field. Sure, it might be that Criminal Law generally requires a more extraverted high power personality, but I'll bet there are many positions in that that would work great for an INTP too.

For example, my division is filled with ISTJ's and ISTP's. They're everywhere, I have five in my small group alone. This branch of scientific engineering attracts them like flies. But at that I found (and made, and my boss made for me) a perfect little niche for an INTP. These other guys frankly don't have much desire for exploration, but prefer to keep doing the same thing over and over. So whenever there's a speculative project guess who gets it? These are ideas that we have no idea how to do or make money at but are worth investigating. So for six months to a year I get carte blanche to come up with something with little oversight.

Hearing what you say about carving out a niche. I'm thinking this could ideal in a larger firm, where you can be 'the intellectual one' in a team specialising in say, insurance law or commercial disputes.

Regarding the growing field of software design, are you noticing a greater frequency of legal disputes? I'm also guessing the disputes themselves are often quite interesting?

 

[Pyropyro]

As you say, Intellectual Property does seem a more cerebral field of law - more investigation, interpretation, analysis, creativity - so more Ti than Te I'm guessing.

Interesting also how IP work falls into the INTPs' 2 main preoccupations: scientific (patents, industrial designs) and arts (copyright, trademarks etc.) My own background (pre law) was languages, music, publishing, so the second route seems most appropriate, although I wonder if looking at software ownership disputes might also be an area 'on the up'. Have you tended to focus on any particular area of IP?

I specialize in chemical and biological patents, preferably on biological derivatives that has the potential to become a drug in the future. Trademarks and copyrights are a bit easier to file in my opinion since they're rarely challenged.

I'm unfamiliar with the software IP industry though. It's a toss up between patents and copyrights in that area since some countries don't allow software patents. Anyways, I think it has most of the "action" if you're interested in invalidating other people's patent claims. The seminconductor industry is also a good candidate.

 

[Absurdity]

I'm probably going to apply to law school in the near future.

I've always had an interest in the field generally, but then again INTJ scum like me are legion in most firms.

Never really been interested in learning about IP though.

 

[Brontosaurie]

INTJ - schizoid or lawyer. pick one

?

 

[Pyropyro]

INTJ - schizoid or lawyer. pick one

?

Why not both?

 

[Brontosaurie]

Why not both?

lawyer may be latent schizoid but the fully realized schizoid is recluse, no?

 

[OrLevitate]

INTJ - schizoid or lawyer. pick one

?

We can do without the whimsical reduction of a slightly more fluid take on complexes than was had in the 19th century

 

[Brontosaurie]

We can do without the whimsical reduction of a slightly more fluid take on complexes than was had in the 19th century

why are you being so damn picky? who gives a shit?

find a more appropriate stalking victim

 

[Architect]

Regarding the growing field of software design, are you noticing a greater frequency of legal disputes? I'm also guessing the disputes themselves are often quite interesting?

Not with my company which is quite the wuss when it comes to legal. It wants zero legal complications and goes out of its way to avoid them.

Mainly the big software companies - Apple, Microsoft and Google get wrangled up. Google and Apple in particular it seems. A relative did a Grand Jury trial in SF with a judge - Alito? - anyhow I went down to check it out. The Judge is a really great and interesting guy, and anyhow he has presided on at least one of the big cases between Apple and Google later I noticed.

 

[Ariel]

I'm an INTP and a lawyer. I work in a small group in my company on large, complicated contracts for software licenses, maintenance and support services, and data processing services. It's far better work than that done by another, larger group in our company that churns out many smaller, more cookie-cutter contracts for the same licenses and services.

I recommend business law, primarily transactional, where your intellect and strategic thinking are valued. Clients and opposing counsel will still also judge you by your externals, but you can just pay attention to your wardrobe and style (punctuality, focus on deadlines and deliverables), and won't need to do the other hoopla you're probably trying to get away from in your current practice.

IP law has the huge drawback that you need to get that engineering degree for a patent practice. Trademarks can be a very interesting area, but you'll need to land a few very well-heeled clients who generate tons of disputes over their marks - probably locked down by other big firms - otherwise you're stuck with another low-profit cookie-cutter practice similar to residential real estate and debt collection. Yuck. As for copyright, that's almost all litigation, probably not something you want to shoulder into, unless you get back to - yes that's right, software licensing.

Commercial real estate is another area you should consider. Also securities, corporate, and take another look at wills/estates/tax planning. Again you'll need to position for wealthy clients or businesses, not small individuals because the latter have cookie-cutter legal needs for very low-margin work that paralegals can (and should) do.

Good luck!

 

[walfin]

Haha I was a divorce lawyer too! Now I still do some of those but I get to do a mix of different types of litigation in my current job.

I can't really imagine doing corporate contracts or IP exclusively. It just seems super mind numbing to sit in the office all day long and not go to court. Plus practically all the arguments, if any, tend to be written - little chance for the heady rush of an oral argument (though I don't know if you liked that). I find oral arguments in court are far better than arguments outside - at least there are rules, which help an introvert to some degree.

Going by your categorisations I must be an extroverted thinker, but I am neither of those (I am an INFP). I like tort and crime and contract disputes. I'd probably like family law more if it was less slanted in favour of women. I have a possibly inaccurate perception that litigators are the only lawyers who can berate their clients and still be loved (well, maybe tolerated) by them. That's something that amazes and inspires me.

P.S. I am aware that the thread is about INTPs as lawyers, but I used to test as INTP.

 

[Matt1210]

I'm an INTP and a lawyer. I work in a small group in my company on large, complicated contracts for software licenses, maintenance and support services, and data processing services. It's far better work than that done by another, larger group in our company that churns out many smaller, more cookie-cutter contracts for the same licenses and services.

I recommend business law, primarily transactional, where your intellect and strategic thinking are valued. Clients and opposing counsel will still also judge you by your externals, but you can just pay attention to your wardrobe and style (punctuality, focus on deadlines and deliverables), and won't need to do the other hoopla you're probably trying to get away from in your current practice.

IP law has the huge drawback that you need to get that engineering degree for a patent practice. Trademarks can be a very interesting area, but you'll need to land a few very well-heeled clients who generate tons of disputes over their marks - probably locked down by other big firms - otherwise you're stuck with another low-profit cookie-cutter practice similar to residential real estate and debt collection. Yuck. As for copyright, that's almost all litigation, probably not something you want to shoulder into, unless you get back to - yes that's right, software licensing.

Commercial real estate is another area you should consider. Also securities, corporate, and take another look at wills/estates/tax planning. Again you'll need to position for wealthy clients or businesses, not small individuals because the latter have cookie-cutter legal needs for very low-margin work that paralegals can (and should) do.

Good luck!

Thanks for the really helpful suggestions. I think business law appeals the most - working on contracts and thinking strategically, etc.

Next task is to train myself up then join a firm that's willing to take on a candidate with little industry experience - but willing to work cheaply!

Thanks again

 

[Matt1210]

Haha I was a divorce lawyer too! Now I still do some of those but I get to do a mix of different types of litigation in my current job.

I can't really imagine doing corporate contracts or IP exclusively. It just seems super mind numbing to sit in the office all day long and not go to court. Plus practically all the arguments, if any, tend to be written - little chance for the heady rush of an oral argument (though I don't know if you liked that).

Agreed, fighting a matter out in court / negotiating can be a thrill, and the chance to do this was a big factor in my getting into family law in the first place.
From an INTP perspective though, I do think I was led astray by my inferior Fe there. As in I think it was for my vanity's sake more than anything else.

These days, I'd much rather draft a long email!

 

[rainman312]

I think most INTPs would be excellent lawyers, until they got bored and gave up 2 weeks later.

 

[Ariel]

You're very welcome and I wish you the best. In my experience it's rare to find a firm that will take on a lawyer with some years experience, without a portfolio of clients, and seeking to start over. I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just a risk many law firms are reluctant to take. You may well do better seeking a position with a company.

Then you might shift to a firm later. But with the right company, you may do great as inhouse counsel. One place to look for job listings is at ACC.com (Association of Corporate Counsel), and of course Indeed.com. Both are free, and posting your resume at ACC.com's job search area is a much better way to set up job applications than the broad-audience jobseekers sites.

Also consider taking a governmental lawyer job such as procurement contracting.

 

[Ariel]

Being a lawyer isn't boring, unless you're in a "mill" type practice like collections or residential real estate. Anyone, INTP or otherwise, who can hack 3 years of law school isn't going to be bored by the practice of law.

IMO the real challenge is that lawyering usually requires more people skills than INTPs typically have, unless we cultivate those skills; and it definitely requires being structured - "J" type - something else that INTPs normally must work hard to achieve.