INTPs and Suicide

[Jennywocky]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

I thought it was already answered, to be honest. I'm not sure what you're missing here.

Anyway, here's a practical question: Are you willing to die this second, in conformity to your argument? If not, why not?

 

[DrSketchpad]

@ Ryan Yeo

What she said.

Again, just because it's a possible course of action that you technically can't regret, it by no means makes it a *good* decision.

Yeah, it's been answered a few times at least. Just read back and read considerately and carefully.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

You are not allowed to suicide because the masses think it's wrong. No matter how much you're suffering inside, you must endure. Think of your family and friends and how much this will briefly hurt them. What's a lifetime of suffering compared to hurting a few people for a year or so with your self imposed absence? *rollseyes*

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

A year or so is kinda shortsighted. Well, really shortsighted.

 

[Yellow]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Fine. If regret and knowledge of your death are the only things to be avoided and the only deterrents, then yes. There is no reason not to die.

Clearly, it is a dissatisfying presumption for many of your respondents. It would seem that there is more to it than "I won't regret my death because I'll be dead". Apparently, some people believe their lives to have a mix of intrinsic and social value. If you accept that you have intrinsic or social value, then no, you are not proposing and acceptable argument for suicide.

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

Yes, looking through the thread, you have defended an either/or stance, when this is a multifaceted issue. You are setting up a very narrow premise and rejecting attempts to introduce additional, relevant considerations.

On a personal note, I don't see a reason why a person should not commit suicide if that is their informed decision. Preferably when a person is free from, or is confirmed to never be free from personally intolerable conditions.

 

[Black Rose]

i never wanted to die, i just became a zombie because i did not know what to do. then i was sad when i got rejected by people who should have helped me. i got a nervous disorder where i could not talk because i stayed in my apartment for 2 years alone. but i never wanted to die even though i was degrading. i just wanted to not be afraid of becoming a zombie again. being a zombie is ok though because at least i can talk. i do not like failing so much but i try to do less difficult tasks now. i don't push myself.

ps some nice mormons came to talk to me just now, they listened to me.

 

[Grayman]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

1) You don't know if you would care after you died because you cannot be sure death is the end of consciousness.

2) Everyone else who is alive will be affected by your decisions. Rights do not come without responsibility. You have the right to do what you want with your money but you are still responsible for paying off your debt. In fact rights mean more responsibility. You cannot end your life without being partly responsible for how it effects those who are living.

 

[Mordecai]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

Life is such a gift. You can throw it away if you want, because nothing matters ultimately. Sure, it's an option. But why take that route?

Life is kind of like a chocolate bar with some dirt on one side. You can throw away the whole thing because part of it is bad. You have the power to do so. But that doesn't mean you should.

What I'm trying to say is, eat your goddamn chocolate.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Is it really chocolate? or is it shit?

Stop oversimplifying life dammit.

 

[onesteptwostep]

42

 

[Jennywocky]

Figured this would fit here adequately...

 

[8151147]

I actually attempted to suicide when I was depressed. Just some shit from deep web. But I threw it to toilet and I just couldn't die.
INTPs may think like this about life/death: "We will die eventually, so why we have to live? Should we commit suicide now so we no longer suffered?"

Sound logic? But why we don't commit suicide? because fuck logic.

Because we actually have meaning when we were born. Not even our life, but everything from the universe to the tiny stone has it own meaning. We will die eventually, by age, but before that we live. So live somehow to deserved with your meaning, bitch.

 

[YOLOisonlyprinciple]

Does anyone her ever contemplate suicide? Since after death we wont know or feel anything, doesn't that make suicide a viable option? I wont be regretful or anything.

i wanted to do it when i was 14 yrs old, just cos life was so confusing; and i believed when you die, you are told the meaning of all life; and so if i kill myself i will know it immediately and not have to wait for a natural death..

INTPs, willing to die for knowledge

 

[Doktorin Zylinder]

I've thought about it lots of times. I think the earliest was when I was about nine.

 

[lume]

I've thought about it lots of times. I think the earliest was when I was about nine.

same for me, i had the first suicidal thoughts with the same age

 

[ZenRaiden]

If it was not for inborn instinct everyone would commit suicide every time they get hurt. That wouldnt work for long. But we have to face the facts. Suffering is natural. Its part of physical life. Living at all costs is not probably a good idea since suffering can be pretty great for humans on the other hand to endure it means you can live a better life in future. The fact is that what drives me is curiosity. Just want to know whats life like want to experience it. Even if it means to suffer sometimes.

 

[8151147]

Suffering is natural. Its part of physical life.

You actually can learn from other experience so you don't need to be suffered what other already be. I've learn this from my step mother. She is an ESFP who suffered the Borderline personality disorder. Her mood change damn fast. She can just smile to you and one minute later punch you into the face and scold you like a dog. It a headache to tolerate her scream. However I realized I almost never ever actually hate her, even she has beaten me like a dog when I was a kid. I just feel something from her pain, like psychic connection. People may seen her like a intolerable one but I know what she suffered is from my whole family: my dad, myself, my big brother. She is just a victim, like me.

When I grow up everytime I watching people use violation to each other, it serious hurt me like I was in that scene. But it also motivate me that I need to be careful, that I may fall into that situation some day in future.

 

[Jaffa]

Does anyone her ever contemplate suicide? Since after death we wont know or feel anything, doesn't that make suicide a viable option? I wont be regretful or anything.

Not necessarily, we don't know if we won't know or feel anything after death.

Nobody knows.

 

[Haim]

Not necessarily, we don't know if we won't know or feel anything after death.

Nobody knows.

Of course we can know,"feel" and "know" is the brain,no brain no "feel".
it is like saying we don't know if a wall have feelings,I know it doesn't.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I actually attempted to suicide when I was depressed. Just some shit from deep web. But I threw it to toilet and I just couldn't die.
INTPs may think like this about life/death: "We will die eventually, so why we have to live? Should we commit suicide now so we no longer suffered?"

Sound logic? But why we don't commit suicide? because fuck logic.

Because we actually have meaning when we were born. Not even our life, but everything from the universe to the tiny stone has it own meaning. We will die eventually, by age, but before that we live. So live somehow to deserved with your meaning, bitch.

i'm hooked on this post, so fucking badass

 

[Dalyth]

Does anyone her ever contemplate suicide? Since after death we wont know or feel anything, doesn't that make suicide a viable option? I wont be regretful or anything.

Lack of feeling in life and boredom causes suicidal thoughts in me, oddly enough. Melancholic depression I suppose.

The idea of having nothing in life is what causes me to want to seek nothing in death. As a choice and a blissful embrace as opposed to a chore, to get up every day and work to make myself live another day as a hollow existence.

It's funny, because I used to be so adamantly against suicide and now I have a few attempts under my belt. I might do it one day but some days seem less likely than others for it to be a viable course of action for me.

 

[Sir Eus Lee]

I contemplate suicide, but don't consider it.

Sometimes for fun I think "hmm ill contemplate suicide" and go over the morality of such, the repercussions, and then I think "that was a good contemplation session."

People say suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, it's also a permanent solution to all temporary problems..

But as to actually considering it, theres an existential gamble with a 50% chance on it. Either you die, and that's the end, or you live on and go to heaven or the equivalent afterlife. Living 90 years of pain for a chance at a happy eternity is the cutoff. Of course the 50% is excluding nearly all religion and philosophy, and even then putting a chance on a binary that's not even a binary isn't true, but anyway.

If you believed that being a good person ensured happiness in an afterlife, that's your answer. I don't know what solace other options believe.

 

[TheAdditional1]

Very very vaguely, distantly, and briefly at a time. I've already had an existential crisis, so now that and death in general is like a raw sore to curiously poke at every now and then.


If my whole world came crashing down and I lost everything, I wouldn't consider doing it. I would just break bad. With nothing to lose I would simply go bad. Outlet of anger, frustration with the world. Currently have too much to lose to do all the things I would like to do. By morals alone I hope you would never hurt anyone, but objectively there's potential in this world for good and bad life, no matter what you're feeling.

So no pun intended, but the moral of the story is this: We're all going to die someday, but until then, there is simply way too much potential in this world - either way - to ever cut it short. Personally - and quite possibly enforced as an INTP, considering all the pieces, dynamics and mechanisms in the world - I'm just far far too curious about "what's next" in this world to ever leave it willingly.

 

[Sinny91]

I often ponder the simplicity of suicide, and how easier it would be..
But the fact that it's the easy route means I'll under dog myself to the hard route, that being life.

In hind sight, there has only ever been the once where I am sure I would have if I could have; some pretty fuct up shit happened, and when it did I turned to others for help, just for them to disregard the importance of said fuct up shit, and those who didn't disregard it gave me completely illogical advice.

My mind snapped, and went to somewhere I can't describe, the thoughts in my head raced so fast I couldn't pin a single thought down. The effects were physical too, it felt like an implosion had happened in my skull... After having a panic attack the only coherant thought I could pin down was to end what was happening..I quickly scanned my surroundings to see that I couldn't even find a tool or method to accomplish that. The end result was a catatonic state which physically lasted 2 days and mentally lasted several weeks.

These days I have all ready survived rock-bottom... Now I just need to ride the rest out.

 

[Sabreena]

OP is right though. The biggest question, for me (a three time sucide attempt-er) has been "Why not?" What is a good enough reason for you to stay alive? At least, that was my reasoinging this time around, seven months ago. The first couple attempts happened close togehter, almost four years ago, and my thoughts were more like "Omggggg fuck my liiiiife why am I so weeeird why am I gay why am I not happpppyyyy." Immature stuff.

This time, I was looking for a reason why not, and I failed (and still fail) to find one. I'm not encouraging such actions, but I think there is a certain logic in the decision to end one's life.

I mean, think about it:

• You're the only one living inside your head, so you're the only person who can judge your entire existance.
• THe only reason people exist is to be valuable to society. This can mean anything from providing friendship/love, getting a good job and contriubuting to the world, being a role model etc.
• If you cannot do any of the above, you're not functional. Literally, if you cannot do these things you get taken to a psych doctor who'll give you what mind alterers you need to do the RIGHT things, to meet a certain number on a ruler. It's not enough to have a heart that beats and lungs that breathe. That's not "functioning." You're a cog in a machine, nothing more and nothing less.
• If you're not valuable to society, there is no point in existing. Not even your family will be that affected by it. Sure, they might grieve. But you can't say there won't be a sense of relief, a weight taken off their shoulders. Because who wants a child who isn't "functioning."
• The world is so big and full of people. You're insignificant. An infinite universe with so many stars we can't even count, and planets with possible other lifeforms, and 7 billion humans and billions more living creatures on this earth. You matter only to a handful of people.
• Living a pointless life is a huge sacrifice to keep that handful of people from experiencing the inconvenience and social stigma attached to suicide.

And I don't think the chocolate metaphor works at all. It's more like you can see everyone around you eating chocolate, but you have a wrapper full of dirt in your hand. You used to have chocolate and remember how sweet it was. Now all that's in front of you is a giant pile of dirt, with blue pieces of paper occasionally peeking out that just might be chocolate.

 

[TheAdditional1]

OP is right though. The biggest question, for me (a three time sucide attempt-er) has been "Why not?" What is a good enough reason for you to stay alive?

Sabreena,


My absolute simplest reason against suicide is simply curiosity - what comes next? On some days that curiosity has all but replaced fear of death. As absurd as it is, sometimes I'm reading about upcoming movies and hope I don't die before it comes out, because I would hate to miss out on whatever story and visuals they came up with. I want to know how global conflicts are going to be resolved, I'm curious about what social trends might define the next generation, what new tech we can come up with, what lies beyond our furthest reach of space, what sequence of events will lead to WWIII, and how it'll turn out.


I would ride front-seat into the apocalypse with bated breath. Pure curiosity.

• You're the only one living inside your head, so you're the only person who can judge your entire existance.
• THe only reason people exist is to be valuable to society. This can mean anything from providing friendship/love, getting a good job and contriubuting to the world, being a role model etc.

• 
  
  Eh I don't know about that. Most of your argument relies on that first quote - being functional. I think it nips it in the bud to insist that it's not the case at all; we aren't obliged by any means to be functional. Like you said - we as individuals are insignificant in the grand extrinsic scheme of things. But instead of making us intrinsically worthless, that makes us intrinsically *priceless* - never before have we had so few social obligations, so much social autonomy in this world. We can do whatever the hell we desire, and if it contributes absolutely nothing at all to the world then so be it - the families got their food, the electricity still runs, conflicts still get resolved, and the world runs and we still got our fun in.
  
  Again - rather than thinking of your lack of contribution as pointless, think of the lack of obligation as liberating. No, you don't have to be a functional contribution. The world can run on its own, and all you should feel obliged to do is get your full experience out of this world, and don't hurt anyone in the process. Then you're good to go.

 

[emmabobary]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

there's no reason for anyone to not kill them selves, kill others or 'attempt' in any other way against life.
But there's this thing: prohibition, prohibition calls temptation, that's what makes this topic taboo. Its funny actually, because thanks to this mechanism we're not able to endure what our desires would mean if they come true. So you have to consider this scio-cultural factor on what you think about suicide.
Also there's a need for death, destruction, etc. it makes possible life.

But beyond that, suicide cannot be think in a purely logical way. To talk about suicide you assume you're an individual a subject who judjes, in one point: who could decide to die, thats different from a being who can't control it's death or even just reflex on it's death. So we're talking from a subjective point of view. I think there's no argument that could make the act of suicide a plausible option to me, neither transcendental, mostly because I find joy in life an d I fear that point where nothing can be said or done. 'NEC plus ultra' in the myth of Hercules.


Maybe what matters is who commits it and why.

http:// http://www.npr.org/programs/death/980429.death.html

 

[BatY]

Striking (in my opinion) inverse correlation between suicide rate per U.S. state and population density per U.S. state. I would link you data and maps and data driven maps and mapped data but you've probably already got it in your head to research it and as a denizen of intp forum you'll want to make sure it's accurate anyways. Can make a lot of tangential research ideas from the correlation.

 

[ygnextend]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

You are not wrong, because you can do what you want with your life. But wouldn't you like to experience things? An orgy at a crazy German club, double scoop ice creams, farting in someone soup, making a little kids cry, getting married ( if you have patience) getting a cool job, traveling, you know, what life is all about: randomness.

Killing myself has never crossed my mind even when shit gets crazy. Dying would also kill my mom... Even if she's a pain in my ass she would be crushed if I passed away now. So I gotta stick around.

Anyone thinking or has thought about ending it should stick around too... Life is fun if you let it be. INTPS ARE ALREADY RARE WHERE WOULD I GO IF YOU GUYS ARE DOA?!

 

[r4ch3l]

I used to have suicidal thoughts very frequently and abandoned two attempts before it was too late when I was going through a difficult period. This phase followed my most manic INTP phase where I was researching like 12 hours per day and essentially just not living in consensual reality for 6 months.

These days I have much better perspective and control over my mind. I haven't had any of these thoughts in almost two years now and I'm not on any medication. I don't believe in any afterlife of reward or damnation but I don't believe once you die that your consciousness dies too. Because life doesn't die. It just changes. I guess I would describe myself as a Gödelian Buddhist along these lines: http://rational-buddhism.blogspot.com/

 

[discreetly-retarded]

I have been contemplated suicide every day for the past few years. I have a anxious disposition and it's slowly gnawing at my spirit. Taking its sweet time consuming me. I haven't mustered up the courage to kill myself yet. Do you get a relief from the thought of suicide?

Yeah, "we all die anyway so we might as well ride it out", I have heard that many times, I find that to be a lame excuse to live on, though perhaps something good can happen later on that will change my life, but that isn't the point. The point is to escape from this intense pressure and this anxiety every day.

 

[A_Scanner_Darkly]

I have been contemplated suicide every day for the past few years. I have a anxious disposition and it's slowly gnawing at my spirit. Taking its sweet time consuming me. I haven't mustered up the courage to kill myself yet. Do you get a relief from the thought of suicide?

Nietzsche thought so, and so do I. I think it helps you feel that much more in control of your situation if you can focus on the fact that it's within your power to bring it to an end if you so desire. You should fantasize all you want if it helps.

Yeah, "we all die anyway so we might as well ride it out", I have heard that many times, I find that to be a lame excuse to live on, though perhaps something good can happen later on that will change my life, but that isn't the point. The point is to escape from this intense pressure and this anxiety every day.

Potentially permanent solution to a temporary problem. There's probably a better fix. Not the best recourse, but I have turned to drugs in the past. At least I'm still alive. It's funny how once you're on the brink of actually offing yourself, your self-preservation instinct kicks in and you start seeing all the beauty in life, all the little everyday things you'll miss that you always took for granted, the people who'll be hurt if you decide to leave that way, and so on.

Best of luck, friend. This might not be the best place to get help, not necessarily the most nurturing crowd, though I think you'd be surprised...

 

[YOLOisonlyprinciple]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?

If i accept the premise that we forget stuff after death, I dont see any fallacy as such..

But the question is what is the point to do so? As in what your purpose/goal is?
Whatever your purpose/goal is, or maybe you think there is no purpose in life..

The fact is that death is potentially a one-way road out of this world, which means it is possible you could never again do the same things or you maybe cant do the things ever again.
It is possible that after dying you either go into nothingness or are transported into a different universe with different laws of physics..

So, essentially you can never visit Paris or Antartica, or eat sushi in Japan or whatever you want to do..

I am not saying that these things are "achievements" which you will carry on in memory after death.
But, the fact is, no matter when you die you get to go to "nothingness", so there is no benefit from going there early.
So, even if you wont "remember" it, wont it be cooler to have climbed the Mt. Everest in this world before going to nothingness..

In any case there is no benefit from reaching the "nothingness station" early, so it is optimal to delay it as long as possible, because there is no cost to doing so.
It would be a different matter if you believe that only those who die before, say 2020 get to go to heaven-ish nothingness; and the ones after that go to hell-ish nothingness.
So, the point is the train is going to wait for you no matter how long you take; so just take as much time as you want to.

 

[TheManBeyond]

hahha, yo all relax life is cute

anyway, here's a song if you want to kill yourself xD, actually its singer killed himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thMNHpW3txE

 

[YOLOisonlyprinciple]

And if you think your life sucks and is painful, yeah your life might actually suck and be like shit; but i dont believe that is a sufficient reason for suicide..
Take the following analogy,
Say you are forced to eat a plain tasteless bread for the next year. It is absolutely tasteless, not sweet, not salty nothing. You put it in your mouth and you feel there is some matter in your mouth but as such gives no taste, however.
Now you are given a chance to eat a bitter slice of bread for one day.
If given a choice, you would eat a sweet bread, actually in normal conditions you will prefer tasteless bread to this bitter bread.
But, as you have been eating only tasteless bread for a year, you do not care whether it is bitter or sweet, whether it makes you puke; you just relish it, because it has some "taste", the taste is bad, but it atleast has "a taste".
Similarly, being emotionless in nothingness, having some sadness should come as a welcome break.

 

[FacsimilePerson]

It's Darwinism of the socially maladapted and I think it's abhorrent to support reproduction between those lacking any social intelligence as essential in our increasingly interconnected world. There is being an 'acceptable' INTP and finally a 'foolish' INTP, suicidal behaviour, which I correlate to social immaturity, inextricably the irrevocable 'foolish' (as stupidity cannot be retracted due to such absolutes).

 

[Velcorn]

I find this topic very interesting and I have thought about suicide pretty often, especially very recently when a friend of mine told me he wanted to take his life and has already attempted to do so before.

The thing is, I'm actually pretty indifferent about suicide, I think it should be your right to decide when you want to end your life. Then again, there is this huge but. Because I think the main reason people want to commit suicide is because they are in pain, physical or emotional or both, and what they want is to make their pain go away. They don't actually want to die but at the moment death seems like the easiest and most logical option. Now, I can understand that decision if you're in the terminal stages of cancer and are only suffering from pain and it's only a matter of time until you die, anyway. If it's mostly emotional pain, it does make sense to assume that this pain is only temporary and it is possible to overcome this pain eventually and thus suicide doesn't seem like the best option. For me personally, suicide has never been a serious considered option because it's scary not being able to think, simply ceasing to exist seems downright frightening. My friend got mad at me for quoting Game of Thrones Tyrion Lannister with his "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities." but he does have a point.

I tried talking him out of this idea and wanted to offer him help or at least direct him to seek professional help. The thing is, I though to myself that the main reason I wanted to help him was that I didn't want him to die because it would hurt me, my wish to help him get better was secondary in that situation; well, that might've just been me thinking kind of selfish.

In the end, I think everyone should be able to decide themselves whether they want to commit suicide or not but they should be able to make an informed decision and not act on impulse. Anyway, I do think the argument of hurting people with your suicide is blatantly stupid and only makes the person thinking about commiting suicide feel guilty, too. It seems like trying to blackmail the person not to take their life.

 

[FacsimilePerson]

I find this topic very interesting and I have thought about suicide pretty often, especially very recently when a friend of mine told me he wanted to take his life and has already attempted to do so before.

The thing is, I'm actually pretty indifferent about suicide, I think it should be your right to decide when you want to end your life. Then again, there is this huge but. Because I think the main reason people want to commit suicide is because they are in pain, physical or emotional or both, and what they want is to make their pain go away. They don't actually want to die but at the moment death seems like the easiest and most logical option. Now, I can understand that decision if you're in the terminal stages of cancer and are only suffering from pain and it's only a matter of time until you die, anyway. If it's mostly emotional pain, it does make sense to assume that this pain is only temporary and it is possible to overcome this pain eventually and thus suicide doesn't seem like the best option. For me personally, suicide has never been a serious considered option because it's scary not being able to think, simply ceasing to exist seems downright frightening. My friend got mad at me for quoting Game of Thrones Tyrion Lannister with his "Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities." but he does have a point.

I tried talking him out of this idea and wanted to offer him help or at least direct him to seek professional help. The thing is, I though to myself that the main reason I wanted to help him was that I didn't want him to die because it would hurt me, my wish to help him get better was secondary in that situation; well, that might've just been me thinking kind of selfish.

In the end, I think everyone should be able to decide themselves whether they want to commit suicide or not but they should be able to make an informed decision and not act on impulse. Anyway, I do think the argument of hurting people with your suicide is blatantly stupid and only makes the person thinking about commiting suicide feel guilty, too. It seems like trying to blackmail the person not to take their life.

Is this the reason you idolize an animated horse - life's easier when suicide ideation is not at capacity of a child's imagination (which adjusts one's mental processes)?