INTPs and Suicide

[Ryan Yeo]

Does anyone her ever contemplate suicide? Since after death we wont know or feel anything, doesn't that make suicide a viable option? I wont be regretful or anything.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I did think about it, but I'm not sure how can you ask someone else if it is a viable choice.

No one can consider your situation better than yourself. It's a personal choice, probably one to be approached carefully and weighing all the availible options that you have left.

What is there to say? If life amounts to nothing and death is nothing, then suicide doesn't change much, doesn't seem like a good solution to move from 0 to 0.

 

[Ryan Yeo]

Life equals to something, but you wont know that something after you die. Hence, dying is a viable option. A stupid decision it may be, but you wont know that anyway

 

[nanook]

how is not knowing and not feeling anything relevant to your values? as a human being you want to know (be intimate with) and feel/experience things, therefore suicide is the opposite of what you want. if your lifestyle has become so empty of meaning and rewarding feelings, that it hurts, you clearly want to change that lifestyle, add personal meaning and fulfill some of your needs. most importantly stop doing whatever it is, that turns your subjective experience into a misery. if you can't see how you are doing it to yourself, go seek the help of a good analyst or any smart person who has learned how to enjoy life.

if you kill yourself, you will realize in the process of dying that it is not, what you really want. you do have (suppressed or uncomprehended) attachement to life, but all will be ripped away from you violently. this process may just be a few seconds, or it may be 42 days (as buddhists assumed after observing the diseased body's process closely).

 

[Ryan Yeo]

but even if i die it does not matter, since i wont know i have missed out on experiences

 

[Helvete]

But why since you have death banked already?

 

[nanook]

the core of your insanity is that you think that life is motivated solely by attachments to it.

it is not.

to the contrary, attachments are a break applied to life.

and your fictitious non-existent "dead self" couldn't possibly be attached to a nonexistant future life, true dat.

that's what your dead self would do: it wouldn't think of a single reason to stop the world from turning and the universe from expanding.

so if anything, this silly fictional perspective is an argument to let go of attachments and to live fully.

life is self-motivated, it's pure drive that takes many forms.

if we care too much about what alternatives we might miss out on, we become too afraid to make decisions towards specific goals and end up having no life at all.

 

[DrSketchpad]

I can't technically define someone else's personal values, but the good thing about being the same species and growing up/learning about/from the same society is we as humans tend to have common core values. Those being we value positive feelings and have a repulsion to negative ones - this is, of course, obvious and fundamental aspects of our consciousness. Everything we experience is colored by and is guided by this.

"but even if i die it does not matter, since i wont know i have missed out on experiences"

Well, of course suicide is a possible course, however it's by no means favorable because you couldn't be conscious of new opportunities/possibilities.

Let me illustrate this.

You wake up in front of a buffet counter/table/thingy and there's one food dish that's uncovered. You partake of it and enjoy it a reasonable amount. "Wow food tastes good."

(Let's assume from now on that you have a digestive system that's 100% efficient, so you can eat all you want)

The dish next to the first one is uncovered and you eat it as well. It's different, but still good.

This goes on for 10 more dishes. The 13th dish however, tastes bland. Actually, as you chew more, you realize it has a pretty unfavorable aftertaste. It's bad.

( It should also be noted that the only door out leads off a cliff and there's obviously no safe way out, but all you know in this illustration is that you can taste things and if you don't want to you have to jump off a cliff, so you're not worried about not being able to experience other, non buffet related things)

"Well, I've enjoyed meals before and I imagine that I can in the future still, however now I know that bad tastes are possible now that I've experienced it do I cease consciousness and give up variation just because a possible variation is now negative? Do I not allow myself the chance of more tasty or even just ok meals just because the buffet's shown itself to be always tasty?"

I may have lost my point somewhere in that, but what I'm trying to say is it doesn't make sense to say death doesn't matter now because you couldn't judge it that way when you die. Of course you won't be aware of missed opportunities if you disable judgment/perception in the first place, but how does that make it favorable?

 

[XUD9]

I contemplate suicide all the time. I have suicidal thoughts on a daily basis sometimes ill try to fight it and just try and get on with doing whatever I had planned on doing . Some days can be terrible and intense though, like I'll wake up feeling like utter crap and not do anything all day and mope around all depressed and tell myself "I should end it right now" or "no one would care if I was gone anyways". I had to quit my job recently as it was a traumatising strain on my Fe having to deal with whiny customers all day everyday and my coworkers. Also my paranoia was through the roof from taking a lot of drugs that summer. I'm still trying to recover

 

[Ocofan]

Had an interesting read on reddit the other day (following is taken from another's post):

[ARTICLE]"So I decided "OK, there is no point continuing with my life. I will end this ridiculous waste of effort." It was kind of a calm decision that felt rational and I stopped the endless weeping and felt better. I remember leaving the house, walking out across the park, looking at the bridge thinking "well, that would be an easy way to go. Lots of people do that, it's free. I don't need medicine or a gun." And I felt lighter. Kind of free. Kind of like none of the crap I'd been crying over mattered anymore.
And then it kind of hit me. It never did. Matter. None of it. It was ghosts. I was standing right there, and none of it could hurt me. Even if I didn't jump off the bridge. I was already free. I just had to see it...... So that's the best I can explain it. But despite some really discouraging, painful and impossible-seeming times I've gone through after that, I've never gotten that serious about suicide again. I always come back to "You're already dead. Or at least you will be, in a blink of an eye world-time-wise. None of this matters. Live each moment in the best way you can"[/ARTICLE]

I've been going through an insane amount of various forum posts at the moment trying to source any advice about what I should be doing re: the future which is a tad depressing. As easy as it seems to end a consciousness that experiences overwhelming negativity a lot of people keep struggling forward because of the residual consequences. To paraphrase another's words; 'the darkness you experience now doesn't end with suicide, it spreads like an infection into the people who love/know you; - ruining them as well'. A lot of train drivers can get depressed with the amount of people that choose to jump in front of them (as would a lot of other professions). So it may be a viable option for oneself but never for the people left behind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMRrCYPxD0I

Here's a video which pretty much sums up my way thinking of what happens after death. Makes me think suicide isn't always a surefire way to leave a problem.

 

[rainman312]

I've contemplated suicide before, but never for long periods of time. I generally feel very depressed for a few hours, then talk myself out of it and start to feel really motivated. I've wondered if it's bipolar depression before, but I don't think it is, because situations like these happen pretty rarely, and the depressive and hypomanic periods don't last for very long.

 

[Bock]

"Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not."

Might aswell ride it out and see what happens, death is coming regardless. Though one could effectively argue that life is suffering and thoroughly pointless (even for the most "healthy" individual), antinatalism for example is rather convincing and coherent.

Not that we can take any sort of "stable" stance on this, self-destructive behaviour has been selected against for "quite some time", amongst other things.

Also the consciousness is most likely an illusion - one could argue that we don't exist at all since being automata kinda kills the whole "sentient being" thing and so on. "Uploading" makes this issue pretty apparent (and star trek beam technology too...).

No beginning, no end.

 

[Ocofan]

doesn't seem like a good solution to move from 0 to 0.

You don't think it would be moving from -1 to 0?

No beginning, no end.

God that sounds depressing.

 

[Grayman]

I must admit, the appeal to suicide completely eludes me. After reading this I can only assume that I have been dead since birth.

 

[Bock]

God that sounds depressing.

The thought of never truly dying (since we possibly are nothing more than expressions of some base principles and so on, eternal cycle all is one yada yada) can induce harmony/bliss/wonder, or the most horrific abysmal emotions, depending on mood.

 

[Ocofan]

The thought of never truly dying (since we possibly are nothing more than expressions of some base principles and so on, eternal cycle all is one yada yada) can induce harmony/bliss/wonder, or the most horrific abysmal emotions, depending on mood.

I guess its because I see living conditions becoming worse over time on this planet. Eventually all this shit is going to have to catch up to us. It's nice to think 'at least I'll be dead by the time it happens'.... but for only so long. There's always been doomsayers that can scare en masse but this time it's becoming more and more a reality. Although when I look past the human race I can feel a sense of wonder.

 

[Ryan Yeo]

but you wont know what is favourable after dying

 

[Ocofan]

but you wont know what is favourable after dying

True. But even now I can look back and think... I wish I grew up in the 60s/80s etc...

 

[Plopsypoodle]

how is not knowing and not feeling anything relevant to your values? as a human being you want to know (be intimate with) and feel/experience things, therefore suicide is the opposite of what you want. if your lifestyle has become so empty of meaning and rewarding feelings, that it hurts, you clearly want to change that lifestyle, add personal meaning and fulfill some of your needs. most importantly stop doing whatever it is, that turns your subjective experience into a misery. if you can't see how you are doing it to yourself, go seek the help of a good analyst or any smart person who has learned how to enjoy life.

if you kill yourself, you will realize in the process of dying that it is not, what you really want. you do have (suppressed or uncomprehended) attachement to life, but all will be ripped away from you violently. this process may just be a few seconds, or it may be 42 days (as buddhists assumed after observing the diseased body's process closely).

I think experience is important too. As he said: If you have a life then why throw it away so carelessly? we are all given life for a reason. And if we don't want it that's the persons decision. But to be a human, an intelligent creature who has a chance to learn amazing things? And as an INTP? we think, and learn, and we are like snowflakes! no snowflake has the same pattern and neither does human personality. Don't just think of the "bad" side of yourself: What about the good side? do not just think of one; think of both. our goods and bads are only a part of who make us who we are. and to be alive? to have a chance to learn? to have something no one else can have? All though I am only one of a thousand, I know I am special. And I will Live to experience, make mistakes, adventure, journey and live. You are special. So think: Do you really think of yourself as all that bad?


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[Bock]

If you have a life then why throw it away so carelessly?

Ridiculous assumption, people do not casually kill themselves. You most likely have no idea how intensely torturing some physical and mental states can be or you wouldn't ask such a question to begin with.

we are all given life for a reason

No and no. I'd love to see you argue for this.

And as an INTP? we think, and learn, and we are like snowflakes!

I doubt you're an INTP.

So think: Do you really think of yourself as all that bad?

Suicide doesn't necessarily mean self-hatred, i would argue that perceived/experienced helplessness and general despair are much bigger factors in most cases.

 

[z12]

I contemplate suicide almost every day. I would say a lot, but most of what I want to say has already been said.
Is it okay to bring religion to the discussion?
I know many INTPs here are either agnostic or atheist. I myself consider myself to be agnostic, every time I try to think of suicide as a method for finding peace, I can't ignore the thought of "What if it's all real?"
What if god really exists? And we are all being tested? If I am killing myself just to free myself from all the problems and then encounter worse after I died?
The op assumes we won't feel anything after we die, and everything will simply go dark. But what if afterlife exists? Is it worth to take the chance to kill myself now and find out I screwed up when facing eternal suffering in Hell?
I don't know, but everything simply going black after you die sounds like too good to be true for me

 

[Ocofan]

I've wondered the same as well. But end up reasoning to myself along the following lines - 'if a person is in that much anguish, that they despair every day and then after it; legitimately feeling that this reality is so ingrained within their past that it would make a logical future for them as well, then what kind of a cruel all-powerful being would further punish such an individual for giving up?'

If such a being existed and they were omniscient then they would have known ahead of time of the life you would have lead and how you would end it, but they gave it to you anyway just to make you suffer for it again after. If such a being like that existed I couldn't give a shit what fate they would pick for me because they obviously never gave a shit about me in the first place. I often think about why religions make it such a taboo subject.

(But evolutionarily speaking I understand it a little bit better (an 'unproductive' (can't think of a better word) individual within a society would remove themselves from it giving the other members a greater chance of survival?)

Edit: This is the best response I could find that argued why religions had the same construct:

Purpose of religion is to instill faith. Suicide is an act that symbolizes the total loss of a human being's faith in a higher power. A person decides to commit suicide when he or she fails to see any purpose or meaning in his/her life. Hence the concept of taking your own life is totally against the basic fabric all religions are based on. According to religion, and most of them, there cannot be any scenario wherein the higher power would ever leave you hopeless and hence in need of a suicide. That's the reason you would find this ban on suicides built into the tenets of all religions of the would.

 

[Ryan Yeo]

since we will not know anything after suicide, it is a logical choice. During the process you might be fearful or scared, but soon after it is nothing. You know nothing, and will not have conciousness. All counter arguments such as human experience etc hence hold no weight.

 

[DrSketchpad]

since we will not know anything after suicide, it is a logical choice. During the process you might be fearful or scared, but soon after it is nothing. You know nothing, and will not have conciousness. All counter arguments such as human experience etc hen ce hold no weight.

Of course arguments hold no weight if you won't actually consider them because you essentially hold you're point as infallible in the first place. The choice/view/whatever is entirely subjective in the first place, but I'll do my best to bring logic into the argument.

You say that because you won't be conscious of the decision after you make it, that makes it reasonable and/or favorable.
I say that being conscious now gives you too much responsibility to consider that good reasoning.

Let's establish something so we can further this discussion on more ... established ground.

Have/do you like(d) anything? Do you think that you can like enough things in the future to justify continued consciousness? If you thought about and truthfully answered 'yes' to both of those questions, then suicide is not a "logical" choice. It's "logical" insofar as it's just a possible sequence of events, but not really from any decision making standpoint.

Does that make sense?

 

[Ryan Yeo]

Yea.. Of course I have liked many things. My reasoning is that since I will no longer be concious after making the decision to die, the decision is ok as I will not regret or feel any negative feelings...

 

[DrSketchpad]

It's *a* choice, but it's shouldn't be favorable (or rather more favorable) just because you can't feel regret for it.

Think back to my buffet analogy. Just because you won't know what you missed doesn't mean it's favorable to do so.

 

[Ryan Yeo]

it does not make it favourable, I must concede, but it makes it an option, an a logical one. Since conciousness perishes, nothing matters, and you know not about lost opportunities.

 

[Jennywocky]

Dr. Sketchpad is correct. Your consciousness WOULD perish if you'd be dead, yes, but it has no bearing on whether it would have been beneficial to you if you'd remained alive. There is no way for you to know. And if you were alive, then there is the chance for something to be beneficial (those "lost opportunities" are "available opportunities" potentially, while you live); if you were dead, then nothing can be beneficial at all.

Besides, following your rationale, it's a better sum-game for you just to shoot yourself right this second versus participating in this thread, if you are concerned about risk.

 

[Yellow]

Does anyone her ever contemplate suicide? Since after death we wont know or feel anything, doesn't that make suicide a viable option? I wont be regretful or anything.

First, I would like to address your use of the word "viable" in this context. I'm not sure if this is your sense of irony, or if you accidentally used a word which also means "capable of surviving or living successfully, especially under particular environmental conditions.".

Second, it depends on if we are talking about theory or action. A lack of consequences is a poor premise for any decision. I would like to think, that since INTPs are being specifically mentioned, our integrity would come into play. While we are strategists, I think that most of us would come to such weighty conclusions independently from whether or not we'd be "off the hook" for the effects of our actions.

 

[Reluctantly]

ITT INTPS are intp because they committed suicide in a past life. Now you are stuck in a cycle of suicide, but once you break out of it and die naturally, you go to Heaven and get 30 virgins for your pleasure for eternity. So the moral of the story is that INTPS are damned.

 

[Jennywocky]

ITT INTPS are intp because they committed suicide in a past life. Now you are stuck a cycle of suicide, but once you break out of it and die naturally, you go to Heaven and get 30 virgins for your pleasure for eternity. So the more of the story is that INTPS are damned.

... actually, sounds like the virgins are damned. What'd THEY do wrong?

 

[Yellow]

... actually, sounds like the virgins are damned. What'd THEY do wrong?

They weren't slutty enough. Let that be a lesson to all ladies of virtue. An eternity of awkwardness awaits you if you don't get laid before you die.

 

[Jennywocky]

Which raises another point: After the first few hours, presumably those 30 virgins are no longer virgins, and there's a lot of eternity left. Do they have a refurbishing program?

They weren't slutty enough. Let that be a lesson to all ladies of virtue. An eternity of awkwardness awaits you if you don't get laid before you die.

Then again, if you're too lazy, you can just wait until you die without having to date, and suddenly you'll be having sex, like, 4ever.

It's, like, the Uber of hooking up.

 

[DrSketchpad]

Alright, alright. In all seriousness though .... how do we break the intp suicide reincarnation cycle? Do we form imprisonment pacts and lock each other up in 2'^2 foot, cells that are upholstered in soft, thin stuff (to ensure that you can't bash your head in the wall or suffocate by latching your mouth on the padding) ensuring non-suicide deaths? I'm confused.

 

[DrSketchpad]

Would a non-intp need to imprison us? We need @ProxyAmenRa methinks

 

[Jennywocky]

We could just create a murder pact.

Then we would be murder victims, rather than suicide victims, and released from our bondage.

(All except for the last survivor, who would have to live a natural lifespan but at least would win the 30-virgin consolation prize.)

 

[DrSketchpad]

Ooooh! All the possibilities. Although, we'd have to be careful to not actually (hypothetically- actually, y'know what I mean) arrange these things because else it'd just be assisted suicide, yeah? Hmmm...

idk

Oh, we need to just get toghether and form a support group. It'll be called "I see a happy future of virgiNTP club" (it almost has a ring to it) so that we're never sad problems solved

 

[z12]

This thread..

Can we get a ESFJ to come and comment on this thread? I wanna know how non-INTPs react to these kind of threads

I love this forum.

 

[DrSketchpad]

This thread..

Can we get a ESFJ to come and comment on this thread? I wanna know how non-INTPs react to these kind of threads

I love this forum.

It's compatible inner-happenings of an NP, however the definite ESFJs I've met would respond with something incredibly trite with a virtuous twist for sure.

Ditto

 

[Jennywocky]

I was hoping for shock and publicized outrage, but I guess I'll settle for trite aphorisms if it's the best I can get.

 

[DrSketchpad]

I was hoping for shock and publicized outrage, but I guess I'll settle for trite aphorisms if it's the best I can get.

I was actually going to write something like "Oh no, you've summoned them! I hear a herd of'em now swatting wooden kitchen spoons at all the hooligans and relaying matriarchal guilt!" but then I decided to go the non-stereotypie, realistic route. Which is admittedly less fun, but I didn't feel like being whacked with a wooden spoon, y'know?

 

[Yellow]

This thread..

Can we get a ESFJ to come and comment on this thread? I wanna know how non-INTPs react to these kind of threads

I love this forum.

How 'bout:

[bimgx=250]http://i.imgur.com/d7WXa.jpg[/bimgx]

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

I don't understand why logic has to come into play in a question like this. Is it to justify? Because you don't have to do that. You're free to proceed, or not.

I have to agree with Nanook and that Reddit post exemplifies how letting go of life attachment frees you.

 

[Grayman]

I don't understand why logic has to come into play in a question like this. Is it to justify? Because you don't have to do that. You're free to proceed, or not.

I have to agree with Nanook and that Reddit post exemplifies how letting go of life attachment frees you.

What is the difference between giving up on all the meaning of life and not caring about anything anymore and just giving up attachment? Seems like one extreme to another instead of finding value in things where they should be and letting go of things you have not control of.

 

[TheScornedReflex]

No one chooses to come into this life, but we can choose when to leave it. It's your own life to do with as you will. Changing lifestyles only works for so long before it all becomes stale and tedious again. Stopping the monotonous cycles with death is appealing.

I think about suicide often enough but have commitments that need seeing through. Two long deep cuts and it could all stop. Just not yet. Have to suffer more first.

 

[Grayman]

It's your own life to do with as you will.

Unless you live on an island by yourself, your life is to connected to everyone around you. It is too interconnected to just be your own.

 

[redbaron]

Death doesn't stop you from being interconnected. The right to end your own life is one of the few things I'd consider as being an inalienable right.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Unless you live on an island by yourself, your life is to connected to everyone around you. It is too interconnected to just be your own.

My god. People who think and act like that are one of primary reasons for suicide. Great statement of fact (pointless truism), though I'd go to say that even living on an island leaves you directly connected to others.

The realisation that one is on one's own instead of having to cater to external expectations is what initiates the potentially suicidal breakdown in some people. The collapse of illusion is healthy if the individual is prepared to take it, which is not the case with already depressed people.

 

[Yellow]

Unless you live on an island by yourself, your life is to connected to everyone around you. It is too interconnected to just be your own.

For some reason, this reminded me of a Regina Spektor (quintessential INFP) lyric

I must go on standing
You can't break that which isn't yours
I must go on standing
I'm not my own, it's not my choice

Though, I'm pretty sure it was a reference to Christ.

 

[Ryan Yeo]

My question really seems unanswered: Why should we not die, considering that even if we died we will not know we did? it is an acceptable option, since we wont regret?

Is there any fallacy of thought in here?