INTPs and Lying

[SpaceYeti]

What do you mean by that? do you mean that psychologists would disagree that they're happy, or that happiness can be found that way? Happiness is too abstract, and intangible to be quantified, and analysed. How can you really tell if someone is happy? how can you tell if one person is happier that another? There's no "correct answer" in terms of what makes us happy, because it differs between people.

Sure, but a crappy life still makes people less happy than a non-crappy life. Happiness is subjective, but that doesn't mean it's an innate quality of a person that's somehow separate from the frequency of that person's fortunes and misfortunes. And it's different per person, which is why I included their personality as a factor.

Psychologists would disagree about the quality of a person's life having no effect on their happiness.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'd say pleasure is something you could attain at any given moment through indulgence whereas happiness is a result of immediate or long term life fulfillment. Pleasure is subjective while happiness is objective.

Happiness is objective, eh? It's absolutely not a purely mental thing, it exists outside of individuals so that everyone may look at it, touch it, and examine it in some way?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Happiness is objective, eh? It's absolutely not a purely mental thing, it exists outside of individuals so that everyone may look at it, touch it, and examine it in some way?

It's objective to the person experiencing the feeling. No one can control their own happiness, though they can control the situations that could make them happy.

People can control their own pleasure directly, just indulge in something that makes you feel good.

 

[Thaklaar]

It's objective to the person experiencing the feeling. No one can control their own happiness, though they can control the situations that could make them happy.

People can control their own pleasure directly, just indulge in something that makes you feel good.

I don't buy the reductionist definition of happiness nor the idea that happiness results from pleasure-seeking. True happiness I see more akin to contentment. How many rich bastards are out there having way more fun than any of us ever will while being completely miserable?

 

[Saeros]

Sure, but a crappy life still makes people less happy than a non-crappy life. Happiness is subjective, but that doesn't mean it's an innate quality of a person that's somehow separate from the frequency of that person's fortunes and misfortunes. And it's different per person, which is why I included their personality as a factor.

Psychologists would disagree about the quality of a person's life having no effect on their happiness.

I agree, but what does it mean for a life to be crappy? Different people guage the quality of their life in different ways. Some people will say that they have a high-quality life because they dedicate their lives to other people and make a difference. Some people will say that their life is more enjoyable after a day of hard labor because they find that activity to be life-affirming. Some people find lying down beside a pool with a nice drink and music playing in the background to be life-affirming. It cannot be said that none of these people are genuinely happy. Some people are unhappy with their lives when they sit down to a warm meal, in front of their new tv, and remember that they couldn't afford a playstation 3, while 1.4 billion of the world's poorest subsist on less than $1.25 usd per day and still manage to be happy most of the time.

Maybe only an individual can guage the quality of their lives, and therefore, their level of happiness. Maybe true happiness has more to do with the feeling that your life is meaningful to you, than it's quality. Maybe people who feel that they're living a purposeful life are generally more content. What do you think?

 

[SpaceYeti]

Sounds sound to me.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I don't buy the reductionist definition of happiness nor the idea that happiness results from pleasure-seeking. True happiness I see more akin to contentment. How many rich bastards are out there having way more fun than any of us ever will while being completely miserable?

I'd say that's a difference between people's personality. They seek out more and more, and that's just part of who they are. They're strict A types and any failing ruins their day. That's why they're successful, but it also means it takes more to make them happy.

 

[SpaceYeti]

It's objective to the person experiencing the feeling.

Emphasis mine.

 

[Thaklaar]

I'd say that's a difference between people's personality. They seek out more and more, and that's just part of who they are. They're strict A types and any failing ruins their day. That's why they're successful, but it also means it takes more to make them happy.

If that's true, and it's all down to personality, why do so many lottery winners wind up feeling more miserable than they did before? Their personalities haven't changed, and they now have access to far more pleasure than you or I could ever indulge in, but yet the stories keep rolling in that the bastards become more miserable than they started in short order.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Well yeah you would think happiness is subjective because it's a personal experience, but I say it is objective because it is impartial to personal desires. Happiness comes from satisfaction, and pleasure comes from indulging. You can't force happiness, it just comes about as a result of all your needs being met. Pleasure can be forced as long as you have whatever makes you feel good.

 

[SpaceYeti]

If that's true, and it's all down to personality, why do so many lottery winners wind up feeling more miserable than they did before? Their personalities haven't changed, and they now have access to far more pleasure than you or I could ever indulge in, but yet the stories keep rolling in that the bastards become more miserable than they started in short order.

Because they spend all their money and then have none left without having invested it wisely, so they had a taste of the good life, but then lost it. Or are there lottery winners who get depressed before spending all their money? How frequent is that?

 

[SpaceYeti]

Well yeah you would think happiness is subjective because it's a personal experience, but I say it is objective because it is impartial to personal desires. Happiness comes from satisfaction, and pleasure comes from indulging. You can't force happiness, it just comes about as a result of all your needs being met. Pleasure can be forced as long as you have whatever makes you feel good.

Okay. you're wrong specifically because it's defined as a mental state, but whatever. Go ahead and be wrong. It doesn't hurt me, it only mildly irritates me that you're being so patently irrational.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm not basing objectivity/subjectivity on if happiness is a mental state or not. You're taking my view in a different light, a very dim one to boot.

Objective experience - indirectly controlled
Subjective experience - directly controlled

Objective experiences would be love, happiness, apathy
Subjective experiences would be pleasure, pain

If you were stabbed fatally you would usually immediately experience pain. Though you might also experience happiness because you would be dead soon and all your individual subjective worries would be gone. Understand now?

 

[Saeros]

I'm not basing objectivity/subjectivity on if happiness is a mental state or not. You're taking my view in a different light, a very dim one to boot.

Objective experience - indirectly controlled
Subjective experience - directly controlled

Objective experiences would be love, happiness, apathy
Subjective experiences would be pleasure, pain

If you were stabbed fatally you would usually immediately experience pain. Though you might also experience happiness because you would be dead soon and all your individual subjective worries would be gone. Understand now?

It doesn't matter what the cause is. It's subjective because only you can feel your happiness. Only you can experience your happiness. Only you can feel when you're in love, or apathetic, and nobody else shares that, or has access to that, or can take that away from you. If you were stabbed fatally you would feel pain, and you might feel happiness, but the person who stabbed you will never be able to share your pain. He will never be able to experience your joy in that moment, because it is subjective. All personal experience, by its very nature, is subjective. That's why different people respond to events in different ways. That's why people can be so apathetic about the suffering of others. Objectivity has nothing to do with the level of control you have.

 

[DesertSmeagle]

can someone tell me how to create threads? i have alot of shit i need to talk about

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'm not basing objectivity/subjectivity on if happiness is a mental state or not. You're taking my view in a different light, a very dim one to boot.

Objective experience - indirectly controlled
Subjective experience - directly controlled

Objective experiences would be love, happiness, apathy
Subjective experiences would be pleasure, pain

If you were stabbed fatally you would usually immediately experience pain. Though you might also experience happiness because you would be dead soon and all your individual subjective worries would be gone. Understand now?

Alright, fine. Let's just take words and purposefully use them in ways they aren't defined to be use. Let's do that. Sounds like a blast.

 

[Saeros]

can someone tell me how to create threads? i have alot of shit i need to talk about

If you go into a sub-forum, like "Philosophy & Faith" for example, near the top of the page there is a button labeled "New Thread". The button looks like this:

You just have to click on that.

 

[wdavis36]

As I sat on my couch, playing the video game Rock Band, I thought of this:

Might certain types be more conducive to a given behavior?

For example, I have a nasty tendency to lie about school and other such topics to my parents. I was wondering if my INTP personality might predispose me to this. Now I know what you will all say: something along the lines of John Locke and tabula rasa and so forth, but I feel that the characteristics of an INTP are conducive to this behavior.

Let's look at two portions of the abbreviation INTP:

I-Introverted. We dislike confronting people who would persecute or otherwise mistreat us for our behavior.

NT-Rational Thought Group. We tend to be very fast thinkers (I know I am) and therefore we can quickly come up with a believable lie that will get us out of the supposed trouble. As I can not get into any of your minds by any method known to me, I am not sure if I am committing a fallacy here, but I know that I tend to imagine a scenario in my head in which I tell the truth and am punished. Therefore, my /I/NTP nature wants me to avoid this situation.

Therefore, I feel that my personality predisposes me toward lying. While I know this could never hold up in court, I was hoping for your opinions.

Thank you,

Universe34

I think its related to you being a brat to your parents.

 

[DarkGreen]

Lieing is dumb, people should just deal with constructive criticism. But then, I'm INTJ.

 

[nexion]

Lieing is dumb, people should just deal with constructive criticism. But then, I'm INTJ.

I agree. In that regard, at least.

 

[DarkGreen]

thank you, being approved is nice.

 

[nexion]

Interestingly enough, I don't lie to avoid conflict (very rarely anyway) but I am typically inclined to always avoid conflict. Which for me just reinforces the fact that I am functioning under two contrasting worldviews at the same time.

 

[knightofni]

I am incapable of lying, obfuscation, or concealing the truth in any way. When other people lie, it adds an extraneous and aggravating layer of complication that makes the core issue/idea at hand harder to figure out or resolve. I also would never engage in any action that pisses me off when other people do it.

 

[cheese]

RE happiness and its objectivity, I think ontological objectivity vs epistemological objectivity is a useful distinction here.

Things which are dependent on a subject for their existence are ontologically subjective (eg pain) but epistemologically objective (ie it is a fact that subject A is experiencing pain).

This would allow for 'objective' happiness - ie the fact that said person is happy (the truth of that statement can probably only truly be known by the subject, but I'd say is still a statement with a definite truth value).
Substitute happiness for pain, for a more easily understood example.

It's not necessary for happiness to be a tangible object separate from the body for its existence to be a fact (known or not), although this does make it harder to study and quantify.

As for pleasure vs happiness, I think EyeSeeCold is expressing the idea that happiness is dependent on the interplay of many more factors over time than pleasure. It's pleasure on a larger scale involving more external factors than is possible to control. By happiness being 'objective' and pleasure 'subjective' I think he means pleasure is within the direct sphere of influence of the subject, being dependent on few and therefore easily manipulated factors, whereas happiness is outside the direct sphere of influence of the subject, being dependent on factors too numerous for control.
Therefore, the subject can directly induce pleasure but not happiness - or in other words, can act in the former instance and is acted on in the latter. "Objective" and "subjective" were misleading terms I think.

Correct me if I've misread you please.

 

[cheese]

OP:
I honestly find lying incredibly difficult. I will agree with what IB said about 95% truth though... makes it especially hard to sift, and most people won't bother. You want the minimum change for the maximum effect, to minimise risk.

As for being a 'fast thinker'... perhaps, but only in situations where I'm not stressed, and finding the need to cover the truth does not fit the bill. I don't particularly like being persecuted either, but I've discovered it's easier with my conscience and just generally if I learn to accept all possible consequences rather than trying to run from them by obscuring the facts.

I don't have an unexpressive face either, such that even when telling the truth I often feel my face 'giving me away' (giving away what, what?!) - the Suicide Bomber Complex. Every time I go through security at an airport I'm convinced they'll find the bomb in my bag, the gun in my pants, the knives in my boots. I walk through the scanner - did they catch me flinch? Don't look, don't look! Breathe normally! Same thing when I'm, for whatever reason, accused of stealing or lying. I think it's perhaps a result of being too indulgent of possibilities - maybe I forgot I snuck her wallet, maybe the last bomb blast wiped my memory. Are you glaring at me with suspicion as I hurriedly search my memory? Fuck yo- careful with that belligerence! For god's sake don't shout JIHAD!

It's not really a viable option for me. (I should add that I'm a pretty experienced flyer; nothing's changed.)

Which isn't to say I've never lied - of course I have, and I do often try to fine-tune my own stories or others (more out of a freakish need to test defences), but they're on very rare occasions where I consider the information private - usually belonging to somebody else whose confidence I cannot break (and in situations where revealing I'm in their confidence compromises them) - or unimportant. I never lie in "important" situations. This includes anything where rights and safety is at stake. I don't cheat, steal or betray trust in other forms unless the information is useful and important only to me, breaks prior commitment but is generally harmless, or endangers another person needlessly.

I do say untrue things to gauge reactions sometimes though, but this is always followed up with acknowledgement unless I'm unable to (eg if the conversation changes). Generally it's just incredibly inane/ridiculous stuff meant as a joke, it's just that people don't get it/aren't listening/ignore it, so correction isn't really necessary.

Also, sometimes I can't tell if I'm lying or not. The harder I try, the more confused I am. This only really happens in areas relating to my mind/emotions though, not objective statements unrelated to myself. I've simply accepted it.

-------

A lot of people here (we've had a few lying threads I think) seem to consider themselves good liars. How are we gauging our success? Maybe other people see through it but can't be bothered to call you on your bullshit?

 

[CoryJames]

I believe what others have stated before. INTPs might have certain inherent qualities that make them GOOD liars but, as Kumar put it, "Just because you are hung like a moose doesn't mean you have to do porn".

Sure, I can tell a convincing lie, and I will get away with it nine times out of ten. Again, as someone stated above, this ability comes from our truth seeking tendencies that have shown us the best ways to disguise lies, and our characteristically higher intelligence that allows us to assess the situation as a whole, think quickly and adapt, and thus successfully fib. I do not believe this natural ability points to any tendency to lie more as a result of being an INTP.

I used to lie more than I do now. My change came mostly out of laziness. I realize that I did not really care so much what people thought about me, and it is easier to tell the truth and forget than to lie and remember. The majority of my deception these days stems not from the outright spreading of fallacy, but more from allowing others to maintain inaccurate beliefs about me, which is again, partially due to laziness, but also because sometimes these false perceptions prove useful for future manipulation.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't have an unexpressive face either, such that even when telling the truth I often feel my face 'giving me away' (giving away what, what?!) - the Suicide Bomber Complex.

No kidding. I mean it's relieving to know that I'm actually not lying, but sometimes it gets to me when people don't take my word for it. I work hard for my integrity and trust not just to have people automatically go against what I'm telling them.

 

[nexion]

No kidding. I mean it's relieving to know that I'm actually not lying, but sometimes it gets to me when people don't take my word for it. I work hard for my integrity and trust not just to have people automatically go against what I'm telling them.

Should have told more lies in the past that couldn't be proven as false.

 

[dark]

My apologies, I had this idea and failed to use the Ctrl + F function to find similar threads.

This exists? Is there some forum user manual I could read? I know that the find function finds stuff on the current page I may be browsing, but can it also search things like this? Seriously I am being serious, I really am this stupid, I spent all my times in computer classes teaching my self computer languages while others played games and browsed the internet, woohoo for me to be completely isolated even on a virtual world haha. Apologies, I know this probably doesn't belong here but I read that quote, and have to know.

 

[knightofni]

This exists? Is there some forum user manual I could read? I know that the find function finds stuff on the current page I may be browsing, but can it also search things like this? Seriously I am being serious, I really am this stupid, I spent all my times in computer classes teaching my self computer languages while others played games and browsed the internet, woohoo for me to be completely isolated even on a virtual world haha. Apologies, I know this probably doesn't belong here but I read that quote, and have to know.

I also didn't know about that function and wondered the same thing! Is it also bad form to start a new conversation about an old subject?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Should have told more lies in the past that couldn't be proven as false.

Hmmm. That's probably what did it.

 

[cheese]

No kidding. I mean it's relieving to know that I'm actually not lying, but sometimes it gets to me when people don't take my word for it. I work hard for my integrity and trust not just to have people automatically go against what I'm telling them.

You mean you have that problem too? Facial contortions that represent the exact opposite of the truth?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I always appear as if I'm holding back something, so I look suspicious. I'm really just trying to contain myself.

If you mean nervous-like behavior, I get overly self-conscious when I feel like I'm being watched.

 

[chuhulil]

I'm a pretty good liar...when I want to be. If I can tell the truth, then I might as well. However, there are certain situations where lying is the only way to get out of it.

 

[Amerally]

I don't feel like lying. I don't ask for question if I don't want to,sometimes I don't see any reason to open myself. Avoiding questions has sense, peace. Lying is only training for my imagination. Occasionaly.
I feel an alacrity to tell alternative history of my life, maybe someday... I love stranger, met face to face, intense, short acquitance. Met in other city, who I've never saw again. They want to impress me and have no shame. They told me they story or eventually their best friend story.
N-type- intuition, idealism, sometimes order me to belive people. Plus command to reveal. Naive need to belive. People are extremely honest to me.
I knew one INTP, from my study group. He lied me telling he has other name. I knew his all secrets but didn't knew name .
When I went to disco with my friend I had a problem what to say her mother, which always asked me about party, my friend always lied, she is bad girl. I felt pity when I heard her version.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Oh yeah. I forgot in school I always used to lie about where I was born and my nationality, can't believe some people actually believed me.

 

[phial]

During my childhood and teenage years, there were times when I was a master-liar. Intuition helps greatly.

I have stopped though, it never helps get to the heart of the situation. Its much better to be frank and completely truthful even if its difficult at first, plus there's that "morals" thing.

 

[SpaceYeti]

During my childhood and teenage years, there were times when I was a master-liar. Intuition helps greatly.

I have stopped though, it never helps get to the heart of the situation. Its much better to be frank and completely truthful even if its difficult at first, plus there's that "morals" thing.

And if everything you say is simply true, there's no reason to be concerned about contradicting yourself, no need to track your fictions in order not to get caught. If someone asks a question, simply tell them the answer. It's simple, easy, and satisfying.

 

[phial]

Definitely, things are much simpler this way.

 

[nexion]

During my childhood and teenage years, there were times when I was a master-liar. Intuition helps greatly.

I have stopped though, it never helps get to the heart of the situation. Its much better to be frank and completely truthful even if its difficult at first, plus there's that "morals" thing.

Wait, what are these "morals" that you speak of?

 

[phial]

By morals, I mean treating others how you wish to be treated and not resorting to childish, underhanded behavior when they don't immediately return the favor. Not lying for convenience or self-gain. I guess it makes me feel better on the inside.

Maybe its just pride

 

[Eclipse]

I hate liars, and I hate myself when I lie. But I do it a lot anyway because, when I get into a bad situation, it feels almost like...I have to. Which is ridiculous. I know I don't. I think, in that respect, I could be called a compulsive liar. It's probably similar to what OCD feels like. I lie because if I don't, it feels like something is going horribly wrong.

And I'm very, very good at it. Not that I'm proud of the fact. But it's true. Unless I intentionally drop them hints, nobody has any idea I'm lying. However, I drop them hints...quite a lot. I'm hoping that if somebody can consistently catch me in a lie, I'll be discouraged from doing it. But since I know it works so well, how can I not?

*Sigh*

Anyway. I think I make such a successful liar because I can control my emotions and how I express them extremely well (read: no "tell" to speak of). I also have an almost infallible knowledge of what people already know, and will or won't believe. The title "watcher" always fit me very well as an INTP.

 

[Methuselah]

As I sat on my couch, playing the video game Rock Band, I thought of this:

Might certain types be more conducive to a given behavior?

For example, I have a nasty tendency to lie about school and other such topics to my parents. I was wondering if my INTP personality might predispose me to this. Now I know what you will all say: something along the lines of John Locke and tabula rasa and so forth, but I feel that the characteristics of an INTP are conducive to this behavior.

Let's look at two portions of the abbreviation INTP:

I-Introverted. We dislike confronting people who would persecute or otherwise mistreat us for our behavior.

NT-Rational Thought Group. We tend to be very fast thinkers (I know I am) and therefore we can quickly come up with a believable lie that will get us out of the supposed trouble. As I can not get into any of your minds by any method known to me, I am not sure if I am committing a fallacy here, but I know that I tend to imagine a scenario in my head in which I tell the truth and am punished. Therefore, my /I/NTP nature wants me to avoid this situation.

Therefore, I feel that my personality predisposes me toward lying. While I know this could never hold up in court, I was hoping for your opinions.

Thank you,

Universe34

I think it takes most INTPs a while just to break out of naively telling the truth. I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

Anyway, your thesis is off... introversion tends to counter quick thinking abilities, at least to some degree, as you are lying on the spot.

That said, I have told a lot of white lies in my life. Only a few darker ones.

 

[underdog]

I'll often tell small lies or omissions either to protect myself or so as to limit hurting other people's feelings. I don't like it but I do it anyway. I've lied to my parents about a lot of things like flunking classes, getting fired and other unpleasant things. Telling them just gets me a critical lecture and more nagging about it when I instead NEED to deal with the issue on my own. I've also managed to keep from some close friends the fact that I went from social to regular smoker. They're a bit hypocritical since they smoke when they go out and are friends with smokers, but for me I'd get nagging from them everything I see them and it's not something I handle well. That might partly be INTP but some of it is just poor self-development.

I think the INTP part really comes in for the lie itself. Given a bit of time, I can plot all the different variables connected to the lie in my head and make it pretty air tight in most cases. It's usually a small enough lie that I can sorta convince myself that it's true which helps make it sound more believable.

 

[nyaneko]

Lying comes naturally to me.

Certainly has to do with intuition... aka.. imagination. Framing yourself into another mindset. Thinks pretty quick sometimes (thinking) logic and crap. What will happen next.. what if... reasons? alibis? thinking what the other person would think... what they believe easily in... what they know the least...

I remember I was... nine and i found a ring in class and said it was mine to my friends made a story.. think they believed me.... got snapped at the end. hahah.

 

[SpaceYeti]

... Liar! You found no such ring!

 

[nyaneko]

... Liar! You found no such ring!

Quick one but no. I did find a ring. Got snapped. Fuck that was embarrassing... I always remember my embarrassing /guilty moments.

I'm not a liar freak bro. But lying just comes natural to me. I sometimes have the urge to steal stuff at dairies. Done it a couple of times.