INTPs and Football

[Jungle]

I played football (soccer) from age 7 to 17. From a purely fantastical perspective, I have always been curious to know how close to a professional level I would be able to go if I ever get back into it. Pure egotism.

This leads me to the question: do INTPs have the potential to excel at football?

Jonathan Niednagel has written a couple of books which apply MBTI to sports. I haven't read them, but my understanding is that he ranks ISTP and ESTP as the strongest athletic personalities, with INTP pretty much disregarded aside from Tennis.

I can see why you might assume that INTPs are absent-minded dreamers who would be useless in team sports. But let's unpack the INTP functional stack a little.

ADVANTAGES

Ti: Ability to formulate high-level strategic insights into the game (perhaps more of a coaching skill than a playing skill, but still useful for a player to have). Probably not useful or viable during the actual game.

Ne: Ability to intuitively read the game and see potential opportunities. The ability to be a playmaker by identifying patterns and exploiting them to your team's advantage. The ability to improvise.

Si: The ability to learn certain plays and techniques by repetition and draw on them at will.

Fe: Because it is our inferior function it should not be considered an asset, but I recently wrote in the thread about laziness that striving for Fe appears to be one of the most powerful motivating forces for INTPs. This could manifest in two ways: 1) trying to get in synch with your teammates, help them and earn their respect; 2) trying to impress the crowd in a professional match.

POSSIBLE DISADVANTAGES

No Te: Inability to command other players. This could be mitigated by playing in a position that does not require organising other people. Ideal positions would be left midfield, right midfield, left striker and right striker. More significantly, an inability to make a quick decision (e.g. should I pass or should I shoot?)

No Ni: Unable to directly read another player's intentions (but might be able to predict their actions by using Ne-Si on a cumulative basis).

No Se: A major disadvantage. Slower reaction times than players with Se. Not 'wired in' to the details of the game. Less likely to identify subtle changes in gameplay. However, it is possible Ne-Si could again be used to mitigate this to some extent (by building up a database of previous behaviour from particular players). Less natural ability to learn the fundamental skills of the game (no easy solution but could be overcome through willpower and Si discipline).

No Fi: Does not appear to be relevant.

Comparison of INTPs vs ISTPs/ESTPs:

The big question here is whether Se-Ni is more useful than Ne-Si. I would suggest that Se-Ni is generally more useful, but that a strong Ne-Si player could carve out a niche for themselves by having different skills to the STP players and proactively mitigating their weaknesses.

I used to play right midfield. I was pretty good at delivering intuitive through-balls that would put a team mate in a scoring position. I was also quite good at reading the flow of the game and positioning myself so that the ball would often appear to magically land at my feet off a goalmouth scramble. However, I was completely incapable of scoring (partly due to lack of skill and partly due to indecision). This drove my teammates nuts!

I was really bad in one-on-one situations, especially when the other player had the ball and I was trying to defend. I would desperately try to read their intentions (failed attempt at Ni), and more often than not they were like a cat playing with a mouse as they casually outplayed me. Fitness was also a major issue for me (due entirely to laziness). Once the games were up to the full 90 minutes I could barely last the match. I also found it difficult to stay mentally focused on the match for its entire duration.

Getting really fit would be relatively easy if I actually made an effort to establish a routine (Si). Likewise, it would not be so difficult to get better at particular skills - like shooting and beating your marker- on the practice field and then lock them in using Si. Perhaps the issue of mental focus could be mitigated by taking up meditation. The ability to make a decision quickly is the only weakness I cannot decide how to mitigate (oh, the irony). Perhaps Si is once again the answer - just learning the appropriate behaviour through trial and error over time.

Case Studies: Lionel Messi and Diego Maradona

These guys are considered by many to be two of the best footballers of all time due to their incredible creativity and versatility.

He was a strategist and a team player, as well as highly technical with the ball. He could manage himself effectively in limited spaces, and would attract defenders only to quickly dash out of the melee (as in the second 1986 goal against England),or give an assist to a free teammate.

One of Maradona's trademark moves was dribbling full-speed on the right wing, and on reaching the opponent's goal line, delivering accurate passes to his teammates.

Maradona was famous for his cunning and clever personality.Some critics view his controversial "Hand of God" goal as a very clever move, with one of the opposition players, Glenn Hoddle, admitting that Maradona had disguised it cunningly in flicking his head at the same time as palming the ball.

Messi often undertakes individual dribbling runs towards goal, in particular during counterattacks, usually starting from the halfway line, or the right side of the pitch, although he has also been described as a versatile team player, with good vision, known for his passing and his creative combinations.

He began as a forward or winger but has also played in a deeper role, in particular under Maradona, in more of an attacking midfield and playmaking role.

So is there any chance that these guys are actually INTPs who worked out how to mitigate their weaknesses and showcase their strengths?

@nanook - I noticed in another thread you have built up a system for typing people based on body language. Would you be able to have a look at these videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWnqlOceKZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INdnOf_JSLU

 

[Cherry Cola]

My bet is if you actually forced an INTP to play soccer that INTP could be pro but would need more time to achieve, peaking later in age than the average player. I mean soccer is complex shit.

 

[Direwolf]

I play soccer as a defender and your second point rang strong with me, i dont know how but 80% of the time i read it right and get the ball (and stop them like a brick shithouse ). Anywho i believe we are typically underestimated in the football department but like everyone we have the capacity to excel at it.

However this is only to a certain extent players like maradonna and messi are naturally gifted with these skills and the physical prowess to pull them off. Most soccer players i know display at least some of your advantages and disadvantages, but having the natural talent makes a large difference.

My friend for ecample is going to a america to play because he got a scholarship for it. We live in australia. Its pretty impressive. My friend is naturally fleet of foot and and is gifted in ball control, shooting and many other thing integral to your performance in soccer.

Another friend -intp- is a ridiculously good strategist and designs plays that are amazing but... Haha he cant perform near well enough to save his live.

It really depends on the person
Me-intp-50:50
Friend intp-batshit- wont give percentage it would be humiliating
Friend gifted- one of the best players i have ever seen

 

[Idunno]

What's so complicated about football. It's like foosball but with a shitload of running. You go back and forth until one side makes a play and u score. Jk

When you look at the top players (thinking about club teams Barcelona Man U Etc.) it's hard to distinguish if they are N or S. I say this because these players are at the top for a reason, they outplay you 9/10 times and why? Because they come up with new ideas and find ways to get an edge N. Or is it because they are just so good on their feet and passionately think/play football S.

Most athletes I'm going to go with sensors, I mean come on, outdoor physical activity? Can't get more sensor than that. Probably harder for N getting up there

You say that you've stopped for a while but going pro or whatever you are striving is no way easy don't let naivety get to you, esp if you plan on spending much time and effort trying to reach your goal.

Best bet if you want to play competitively as an intp is to use your time and effort wisely instead of just playing or practicing S. For me i would study the game and find the underlying meanings of game experience and try to learn. So pretty much work smarter not harder.
Like you've said you've taken a break and I don't know how your condition is but I do know football is a SHIT TON of running, running stamina and superb control in my eyes are 2 essentials in football that a sensor would beat an intuitive( getting nitty picky here, but I'm bored).

Midfielder sounds like a great position for an intp primarily because you initiate the attack, experience with theorizing in different plays throughballs and all the other shit midfielders do.

You've had tons more experience with the sport than I have so you probably know so much more than me so take what I say with a grain of salt, just trying to provide some insight.

 

[Direwolf]

Sweepers are good as well for playmakers and more often then not need less running and ball control. However you need to have a decent boot. Really depends on your skill, preference and fitness.

 

[k9b4]

Sensing is used in sports, not intuition. Intuition in MBTI is basically just thinking about stuff.

The most talented sportsmen would be some kind of sensing dominant.

 

[Architect]

Sensing is used in sports, not intuition. Intuition in MBTI is basically just thinking about stuff.

The most talented sportsmen would be some kind of sensing dominant.

Generally correct.

In the sample of people I was very confident are INTP's (about 10) not a single one of them was into team sports. At most they were into some kind of solo sports. One was a cyclist, but not racing, just touring (she liked the freedom and challenge). For myself I jog, stationary cycle and lift weights, purely for the health benefits. From the theory here's no reason an INTP would have any affinity for any sport.

For professional sports players I have yet to see any compelling example of a player who was even an intuitive. Oh maybe Tiger Woods is an INTP, who knows, he comes off as well as a ISTX too. Certainly it would be hard for an N dominant to compete with all the S dominants professionally, you'd have to explain how that worked.

OP is perhaps a Ti dominant ISTP, who do have a great affinity for sports, solo or otherwise. Generally ISTP's prefer solo sports, but they do go for team on occasion.

 

[Jungle]

My bet is if you actually forced an INTP to play soccer that INTP could be pro but would need more time to achieve, peaking later in age than the average player.

I think you're right. There may not be a natural tendency or affinity there, but some incredible potential if the power of Ne-Si is harnessed.

I play soccer as a defender and your second point rang strong with me, i dont know how but 80% of the time i read it right and get the ball (and stop them like a brick shithouse ).

Nice. So do you think that is Ne-Si at play?

Sweepers are good as well for playmakers and more often then not need less running and ball control. However you need to have a decent boot. Really depends on your skill, preference and fitness.

I never realised that sweeper was a playmaking role but it makes sense when you think about it. Do you find that playing in defense helps with staying focused? It seems you would have more of a subconscious incentive to stay alert (protective instinct).

You say that you've stopped for a while but going pro or whatever you are striving is no way easy don't let naivety get to you, esp if you plan on spending much time and effort trying to reach your goal.

I am light years away from being pro. It is just a theoretical daydream at the moment. If I decide to get back into it then it would definitely be at an amateur/hobby level for the foreseeable future. But those do sound like wise words about considering the amount of effort. There are so many skills that I want to explore: writing, music, football, martial arts, painting. There is a saying that "If you dig a well in seven different places you will not find water". I guess that is the curse of Ne.

Best bet if you want to play competitively as an intp is to use your time and effort wisely instead of just playing or practicing S. For me i would study the game and find the underlying meanings of game experience and try to learn. So pretty much work smarter not harder.

I agree that the N stuff would be the point of difference/advantage, but I would probably also need to spend a lot of time on S stuff to be able to hold my own in that area.

Like you've said you've taken a break and I don't know how your condition is but I do know football is a SHIT TON of running, running stamina and superb control in my eyes are 2 essentials in football that a sensor would beat an intuitive( getting nitty picky here, but I'm bored).

You don't see running/stamina as being the domain of Si? I was under the impression that it is generally more of a Si area due to getting touch in with your body and building up a routine over time.

You've had tons more experience with the sport than I have so you probably know so much more than me so take what I say with a grain of salt, just trying to provide some insight.

10 years experience might sound impressive but in actuality it was a comedy of errors.

Most athletes I'm going to go with sensors, I mean come on, outdoor physical activity? Can't get more sensor than that. Probably harder for N getting up there

Sensing is used in sports, not intuition. Intuition in MBTI is basically just thinking about stuff.

The most talented sportsmen would be some kind of sensing dominant.

Certainly it would be hard for an N dominant to compete with all the S dominants professionally, you'd have to explain how that worked.

Ne is about taking in patterns, rhythms, connections, juxtapositions, etc. I see no reason why this function can't be used in a sports match. You also need to remember that I am talking about one particular sport and one type of role at that.

Here is an excerpt describing the 'Qualities of a good playmaker':

Perhaps the most important quality of a playmaker is the vision and ability to read the game, and get into good positions making for effective reception and distribution of the ball. Intuition and creativity are other key elements of a playmaker's game, as they need to know where different players are at different times, without taking too long to dwell on the ball.

In the sample of people I was very confident are INTP's (about 10) not a single one of them was into team sports. At most they were into some kind of solo sports. One was a cyclist, but not racing, just touring (she liked the freedom and challenge). For myself I jog, stationary cycle and lift weights, purely for the health benefits. From the theory here's no reason an INTP would have any affinity for any sport.

I wasn't talking about INTP tendency or affinity for sport. I was talking about INTPs (potentially latent) capability to excel at football in a creative/intuitive playmaking role. I would not say that I personally have a great affinity for sports - I was not a particularly good footballer at my first attempt. I am interested in what development strategy an INTP could use to excel, if they wanted to.

For professional sports players I have yet to see any compelling example of a player who was even an intuitive. Oh maybe Tiger Woods is an INTP, who knows, he comes off as well as a ISTX too.

Check out the two videos I posted above. What do you think their types are?

OP is perhaps a Ti dominant ISTP, who do have a great affinity for sports, solo or otherwise. Generally ISTP's prefer solo sports, but they do go for team on occasion.

Have another look at my original post. The conventional wisdom is that ISTPs and ESTPs are the natural athletes, but I am building a theory that there might be a niche for INTPs as creative playmakers in football. Remember that it is about the nuances of football rather than having a general affinity for playing sports.

 

[Direwolf]

Oh definitely, my team this year didnt win a game. We conceded a reasonable amount of goals but the only readon we managed to keep some dignity was because our defense was phenominal. Traditionally one of the centre mids would be the playmaker but they proved incapable or just couldnt do it. Myself- right defender and the sweeper especially were the biggest playmakers. We would stop a goal, bring it up the field and put it in the money spot where the strikers would then miss it and render our efforts moot. It sucked.

About focus: it is definitely important. The older you get the more attention you would beed to pay. Defenders in a toddler game could muck around cause it would take a bit for them to run up the field. Whereas adults and pros especially can get it up in the money spot from their 18 yrds in 1 kick(look up xavi alonso in bayern munich he does CRAZY kicks), and bam the balls on top of you. If you arent aware of your surroundings, your screwed.

I reckon the ne-si is at play. In training we are tought how to judge where the opposition is likely to go. I myself like previously stated do this. We also take advantage of their formations and playing style-eg kick and run, or lead foot- abd use it to destroy them. I find that in most games we are calling the overlays in their formation where we have a spare man.

 

[Architect]

I wasn't talking about INTP tendency or affinity for sport. I was talking about INTPs (potentially latent) capability to excel at football in a creative/intuitive playmaking role.

That's like saying "A dog would be a really good baseball player because its good at running after balls (if only it could stand upright and throw the ball)".

Check out the two videos I posted above. What do you think their types are?

Are you kidding me? These guys are speaking Spanish and are from a different culture. Ignoring the language issue, as in I have no idea what they're saying, I have difficulty enough reading strangers in my culture, a different culture puts an entirely different spin on things.

On the surface Germans are all ISJ's, Latin Americans are all SF's, French are all NF's or SJ's, Russians are all STJ's, and Americans are all ESP's.

 

[Direwolf]

What about australians architect? We play soccer too. Granted not that good compared to brazil and germany... but still.

 

[redbaron]

As an Australian I'm proud to admit that we're all trash at soccer. We're good at football though.

 

[Architect]

What about australians architect? We play soccer too. Granted not that good compared to brazil and germany... but still.

What about it?

My point is that I believe it's unlikely to find a professional sports figure who has S in the inferior position (either tertiary or inferior). The reason is that professional sports is so competitive that non-S dominants are already outclassed by the S dominants. This is by definition, a S dominant craves sensory input so will go out and practice a sport continually. An intuitive doesn't have those kinds of facilities.

It's false reasoning that an intuitive could be good at it because of problem solving skills. It's been studied and is well known that sports takes autonomous motor memory, not cognitive reasoning. That motor memory comes from practice.

Even if it was true any INTP would be outclassed by the far more numerous ISTP, who also has a Ti dominant, but has a Se auxiliary. I have an ISTP brother. I can match him in a sports event for about a half hour, sometimes I'm really on and do even better. After that you can see me petering out while he's still going. Tortoise versus hare - I have to "pump myself up" to make it happen. He's a big hulking weight lifter too whereas I'm quite thin.

Anecdotally none of the INTP's I know (some six personally and many online) do sports to any significant degree, but almost every ISTP I know (one exception) is a sports person. They tend not to follow professional sports as much as other types, but they usually do it (typically solo sports like lifting, cycling or skiing.)

 

[Direwolf]

Redbaron: "fistbump" we are trash but we look good doing it.
Architect: i wasnt trying to bewitile your point i was just genuinely asking how you would type us. My comment might have been interpreted wrong. You mention all the prominent soccer nationalities, i know we are small and kinda rubbish but i just wanted to know what you would type us as. Thats all.

Also unlikely isnt impossible ergo its possible that their is one. You or i just havent seen any convincing examples.

 

[Architect]

Architect: i wasnt trying to bewitile your point i was just genuinely asking how you would type us. My comment might have been interpreted wrong. You mention all the prominent soccer nationalities, i know we are small and kinda rubbish but i just wanted to know what you would type us as. Thats all.

I know you didn't, I just didn't know what you were asking. Also my typing example was just a cultural stereotype. French culture is a mixture of NF and SJ. Probably the old France and the post-Revolution.

So you're asking what type Australian culture would be? ESP would be my guess, but it seems more uniquely itself than the others. Kind of like Canada or Mexico, they don't seem to fit into any bucket.

Again it's just assigning Type too their Cultural stereotype.

 

[ddspada]

Even if it was true any INTP would be outclassed by the far more numerous ISTP, who also has a Ti dominant, but has a Se auxiliary.

Far more numerous? Aren't both types around 3% of the population each?
Regardless; even if INTPs were more numerous (dare I say by a factor of three or four), the net amount of ISTP sportspeople would still surpass the net amount of INTP sportspeople.

Kind of like Canada or Mexico, they don't seem to fit into any bucket.

Having lived in Mexico for 17 years, I can say its culture is distinctly ESFX, but having lived elsewhere for three years, I can appreciate that the way the culture is seen from without is very noticeably different from the way it's seen from within.

 

[Anktark]

You can drag the INTP onto the football field, but you can't make him stay after he has figured out how to play.

 

[Architect]

You can drag the INTP onto the football field, but you can't make him stay after he has figured out how to play.

Exactly.

Happened to me with Skiing. I got off the bunny slopes in a day, did it one more day and got bored, never tried it again. Loved sailing until I mastered it. Same with basketball and every other thing I tried or got pushed into.

 

[Analyzer]

I think INTP's can get into team sports but their interest diminishes over time compared to ISTP's. With solo sports INTP's can probably sustain an interest but it wouldn't be as "serious" as a ISTP would approach it. Si vs Se seems to be a factor in the differences here.

 

[Pizzabeak]

Out of all the sports intps should be hella good at football.

What would Japan society be like? I kind of want to say NT. Maybe the females would be some F or TJ.

 

[Architect]

What would Japan society be like? I kind of want to say NT. Maybe the females would be some F or TJ.

No Japan (spent years working there) still has strong feudalistic roots, I'd tag it closely as SJ (duty and such). However Japan is unique in everything they do so that's not a close fit.

 

[Saoshyant]

I played soccer all throughout High School. I was naturally good at defense (passive and respond) and average at the other positions. I would also play indoor soccer, which is awesome. I've learnt to be better at offense. I still play pickup games at age 30. The stereotype is pretty much true about Sensors being better at sports than intuitives, but stereotypes are made to be broken.

Maradonna is probably a raging ESTJ (you check out those watches??) and Messi strikes me as an ISTJ.

 

[Haiduc]

Jonathan Niednagel has written a couple of books which apply MBTI to sports. I haven't read them, but my understanding is that he ranks ISTP and ESTP as the strongest athletic personalities, with INTP pretty much disregarded aside from Tennis.

Soccer's the sport I've played most and I'm pretty good at it. My technique's better than most, I'm a good passer. I'm also positionally/tactically sound and good at reading the game. I always played as a deep-lying playmaker or a cultured centre-back.

What stopped me from playing at a high level was lack of physicality and a propensity to get injured. Despite being fairly sociable (and a fan of booze!), I also struggled to buy into the team ethos.

My best sport in my youth though was.... tennis! Guess that all fits your theory!

That said, I think your genes are the biggest predictor of sporting success. It's then about the requisite number of hours practice and the availability of facilities and competition. I'm not sure cognitive behavioural preferences play that much of a role if I'm honest.

If all those factors were equal though, and the only difference was INTP vs ISTP, then yeah I wouldn't be surprised if the ISTP was the better player.

On a tangent, have you heard of the Secret Footballer? He purports to be a former Premiership player and writes anonymously about what life is really like as a soccer player at the top level. I'm pretty sure it's a guy called Dave Kitson who used to play at Reading. He's definitely one of the more cerebral people in the game. No idea if he is an INTP. Just think if I was a Premiership player, an anonymous blog is definitely the type of thing I would do!

 

[Jungle]

On a tangent, have you heard of the Secret Footballer? He purports to be a former Premiership player and writes anonymously about what life is really like as a soccer player at the top level.

Thanks for the tip, I hadn't heard of him. I am going to get hold of his new book on football strategy - looks cool.

I've started doing solo training routines now. Getting my Si into action. When I was younger I often got stuck in a vicious cycle with teammates where they didn't pass me the ball as often as other players because I wasn't as good, so then I never got better because they didn't pass the ball to me as often. It made me feel pretty stressed.

I think the way to break through this is to just increase my basic skills by practicing alone for a while. I've found some good YouTube videos to help me get started. I will then bring the skills back into a team context in a couple of months time and focus on adding Ne and Fe to the Si.

With regards to my initial theory, I have done quite a bit more analysis and I am now convinced that there are professional INTP footballers dotted all over the place. About half of Barcelona FC for a start. There are also a handful in the EPL. Say what you will about confirmation bias - from my perspective it is self-evident once your eyes adjust to it. They are vastly outnumbered by STPs though.

 

[Jungle]

Furthermore, I think the great thing about football for INTPs is that it gives us a chance to show off our functions in a way that is externally verifiable. So many of the things we do with our skills are of no real significance in the eyes of society. Even if we make a major theoretical breakthrough in an academic context, many SJ types will still dismiss it.

But an INTP who does incredible things on the football pitch can be appreciated by a much larger cross section of society. A lot of people seem to appreciate creativity more when it takes place within clearly defined rules and boundaries.

 

[QuickTwist]

Soccer is NOT complicated relatively speaking to other sports. Pass the ball a lot, don't get the ball stolen from you, and do everything you can to score a goal if you're a goal scorer.

 

[Direwolf]

No one person is defined as a goal scorer defenders and mids can svore as easy as striker, hell goalkeepers have scored before. No where near as often as others but it happens.

Come to think of it most players dont even always stay in their position, google manuel neuer sweeper keeper an see what i mean. You also get defenders goin up to strikers but most of the time only if their is momentum or for support. In those cases the corresponding mid fills in or the backs spread out. On corners, not always but strikers come back to defend.

 

[Object]

Never played football.

Excelled at Rugby, was okay at cricket but focused more on Rugby.
Absolutely loved Rugby, nothing better than being completely exhausted after putting in your best effort with 14 of your brothers.

I loved using strategy and brute force to overcome an opponent, I loved the rivalry, I loved the aggression.

No homo, it was just a great experience over all.

 

[JimJambones]

I tried to play soccer on a team before, got kicked in the face with a ball, was pissed that it bent my glasses, and never came back after day one.

I cannot pay attention to any game for more than a couple of minutes, lose interest and start thinking about all sorts of things other than the game. I will zone in and out of a game, often missing the best plays in a game.

When people are standing up cheering, I am sitting there looking around, clapping for unknown reasons.

I really can't see INTs doing any team sports, honestly.