INTP's and Cognitive Disorders

[CognitivePursuit]

INTP's are often accredited amongst the limited " Intelligent " personality types , the architect sees patterns and discovers them - i realize how most INTP's are said to have amazing skills particularly in the numerical realm but such is not the case with me , the systems i look towards are usually language and in general facts and thought.

Which is why i analyzed and researched about why i lacked skill in nearly anything involving Mathematics - whereas most INTP's stress about it being their area of strength.

I came to the conclusion that Dyscalculia and Math Anxiety were the culprits , i also realized that INTP's may be highly associated with Aspergers Syndrome whose definition fits that to an INTP perfectly in some aspects - This Confuses me.

I always to suffer a parry not because i don't know the concept , rather i don't know what situation to apply it in , for example we take circle theorems and contrast it against another medium such as ratio's , graphs , functions , algebra in general.

I find my self confused as to how do i apply and when do i apply a particular concept when faced with a problem - and i find myself in a general blank space , followed by strain of nervousness - I don't know how to contend with this.

Science as a concept interests me , where Biology and Philosophical pursuits are at the highest - but we all know that this realm deals with a massive amount of mathematics formulae in general but faced with difficulties involving Physics and Chemistry i find myself in the similar blank - because the problems faced here are inherently similar to those i found in maths - this has persisted in my life since i was very young ..

I was hoping i could get advice from fellow INTP's

 

[deadpixel]

I suck at math unless I have adderrall, bc of my A.D.D, then im quite good at it.

 

[deadpixel]

It sounds like you could have A.D.D, Lots of INTP's suffer from it. Particularly selective A.D.D

 

[Chocobana]

I have a similar problem and was wondering about the math issue when I read the description of INTP types. So we (as INTPs) are supposed to be good at math or is it science in general?

Throughout middle and high school, the only smudge on my grades was mathematics. I had no interest in the subject and there were too many steps to follow and so many different methods. But I did notice I learned faster when it came to patterns and the like. And, ironically, Calculus (I) was a piece of cake compared to all the Algebra hell because it depends more on basic concepts and less on formulas.

Are you sure you suffer from Dyscalculia? If you do, I think you would have realized it much earlier. Math anxiety sounds more plausible though.

I'm curious to hear about other people's experiences with math.

And about INTPs being similar to those diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, I think you might be right about that. INTPs are not very social, would rather occupy their own thoughts, and have minimal displays of emotions when compared to other personality types(I've been called cold as ice by people I know when it's not true) but I think that's where the similarities end.

 

[crippli]

And about INTPs being similar to those diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, I think you might be right about that. INTPs are not very social, would rather occupy their own thoughts, and have minimal displays of emotions when compared to other personality types(I've been called cold as ice by people I know when it's not true) but I think that's where the similarities end.

Agree with this. If one look at a list like this
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger%27s_Syndrome
People might say that many of these could also be labeled INTP. Some are even considered hallmarks of INTPness.

I guess, for whatever reason one react a bit differently emotionally to things, and fit an INTP profile. Then one probably will fit the diagnostic criteria for Asp. Especially if some preferences are strong.

There is also that they don't normally diagnose Asp unless IQ is normal or higher. I've also read that INTP and below IQ doesn't fit either.... So yes, there clearly are similarities....

OP: I didn't notice any particular difficulty when I learned math. I presume you would excel in math if you had an interest. I am convinced though, that I liked the math classes during school because I had a good teacher. Probably the only classes I didn't skip regularly and did other things. It seems you want to do this. Maybe search up a good teaching environment. Don't know how to go about this. Maybe sign up somewhere with small classes. So tutoring will always be available when/if needed.

 

[Spocksleftball]

OP: I sucked at math until I attended college, where I was suddenly a wiz at it. Geometry and trigonometry were easy to understand, more so that statistics anyway.
On Asperger’s, the one prevailing characteristic is the inability to use social queues for the correct response. I have an acquaintance with Asperger’s. He has learned to smile at jokes, but never laughs, because he really doesn't understand humor that way. This is typical of social dysfunction, and differs from intense shyness; if you think things are funny, or make yourself laugh, then you don't have Asperger’s.

the wiki link of famous people with it is suspect. Ben Franklin was well known for his social dalliances. Hardly symptomatic of the desease.

 

[Base groove]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_famous_people_have_Asperger's_Syndrome
People might say that many of these could also be labeled INTP. Some are even considered hallmarks of INTPness.

Also including Bob Dylan (ISFP) and ...

wtf .


Robin Williams!? (ENFP) Aspie? yeahh I could buy it.

 

[crippli]

the wiki link of famous people with it is suspect. Ben Franklin was well known for his social dalliances. Hardly symptomatic of the desease.

“Benjamin Franklin’s peers did not give him the assignment of writing the Declaration of Independence because they feared that he would conceal a joke in it,” (Botham, 2006, pp. 17-18). Aspies are notorious for an extreme or different sense of humor.

Also including Bob Dylan (ISFP) and ...

wtf .


Robin Williams!? (ENFP) Aspie? yeahh I could buy it.

I am not familiar with these people, other then Williams in a few movies. Since they are not INTPs that should strengthen the OP correlation more?

 

[ENTP lurker]

If you read Hans Asperger's original work he seems to describe traits that resemble Ne and Ti. He considered it as personality disorder. Too strong absent minded professor traits. Alltough some case studies don't really fit 100 % with it. He used Bleuler's definition of autism (lots Ne and Ti like symptoms).

It is freaky how much I can identify with it. I have never crossed the border to the dark side, obviously.

I don't identify with the modern definition at all. Modern stuff seems to deal with other dysfunctions. Maybe it is expanded to cover other personality type trait extremes.

 

[Variform]

INTP's are often accredited amongst the limited " Intelligent " personality types , the architect sees patterns and discovers them - i realize how most INTP's are said to have amazing skills particularly in the numerical realm but such is not the case with me , the systems i look towards are usually language and in general facts and thought.

I believe the reason INTP's are attracted to numerical things is because they have an inherent system to it based on a form of logic. The INTP personality as such has no preference for anything. It will like any logical system. Numbers are logical, but if art was logical, they would like it too. So the form in which the process is clad is not the issue.

I also do not believe any personality type has any preference at all. I think that what a personality type comes down to is a self-directed process. It is a vector.

The Artisans will have a vector for non-linear systems and non-logical models or models not based in logic. Therefore they will gravitate to other things.

Which is why i analyzed and researched about why i lacked skill in nearly anything involving Mathematics - whereas most INTP's stress about it being their area of strength.

I came to the conclusion that Dyscalculia and Math Anxiety were the culprits , i also realized that INTP's may be highly associated with Aspergers Syndrome whose definition fits that to an INTP perfectly in some aspects - This Confuses me.

I have a case of dyscalculia. Never heard of math anxiety in capitals as if it were a recognized DSM-IV disorder.

The AS link is there. My dx mentions dyscalculia, StpD and AS. And from there on there is overlap with AD(H)D as well. It seems to me that when INTOP character traits are out of balance and cause issues in functioning in life, they become AD(H)D symptoms.

But to what extend that is precisely the case I have not been able to find online.

I always to suffer a parry not because i don't know the concept , rather i don't know what situation to apply it in , for example we take circle theorems and contrast it against another medium such as ratio's , graphs , functions , algebra in general.

I find my self confused as to how do i apply and when do i apply a particular concept when faced with a problem - and i find myself in a general blank space , followed by strain of nervousness - I don't know how to contend with this.

In my case you may give me a formula and a text with information you can enter into it and I will not be able to do that. I don't get formula's, so even if you give me no text, just the numbers, I will fail. It is really funny if it wasn't so sad how I spend so many hours in school dreading the teacher would ask me a question where I had to calculate anything.

Imagine my education had business economics, general economics, commercial forming, calculus. How I ever got a diploma is beyond me. But the tress was immense. My dyscalculia isn't as bad as some of the vids I saw online.

I can do some things, real basic. But not all. E.g. I can take a percentage of a number. Say, €245,- and take 20%. So I go like 245/100x20. So if I need 20% on top of 245, u lose me. I can only do the above and than add the 20% in an extra step. I cannot picture how to do something with 120/100x245 . I have no idea what I am doing then. Or 100/120x245. No idea what I am actually calculating!

Science as a concept interests me , where Biology and Philosophical pursuits are at the highest - but we all know that this realm deals with a massive amount of mathematics formulae in general but faced with difficulties involving Physics and Chemistry i find myself in the similar blank - because the problems faced here are inherently similar to those i found in maths - this has persisted in my life since i was very young ..

I know your pain. So many fields of study require calculus of some kind. If only to...I have no idea what this is called. When a scientist uses logical math systems of calculations in studies to prove or get some significant outcome. And then make graphs of it.

I was hoping i could get advice from fellow INTP's

Well, there are 'treatments' that are said to work for dyscalculia. Check YT for some vids. I don't know how bad you have it. There are some people who have trouble paying in a supermarket, so they just give a bill and hope it covers it, so if you hear someone tingling with loose change, they have dyscalculia :-)

I am giving up on improving any such skills. I am too old. Why bother. It will just annoy me.

I prefer other things myself as well. Languages, psychology. But I could never do a study even if I had studied it, like be a clinical or theoretical psychologist or psychiatrist who actually has to sue the scientific methodology to calculate relevances and significances in some group of people that were studied.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Aspergers is a mild form of autism. Autism involves trouble sorting sensory input. Those who are severely autistic but able to communicate via text describe normal everyday sensory inputs as overwhelming, blinking lights and the sounds of vehicles driving by cause them to feel like they are on fire or at a laser bass mega-techno festival, textures of clothing can put them in a straitjacket filled with poison ivy. Hence why people with aspergers are obsessed with categorizing things, it soothes their minds, making it easier for them to cope with abundant contents of the world.

Does being an INTP really correlate with aspergers, is it really that similar? From a behavioristic viewpoint it does I guess. Phenomenologically I doubt it, INTPs are oblivious to the external world, not intruded upon by it.

 

[Variform]

Are you sure you suffer from Dyscalculia? If you do, I think you would have realized it much earlier. Math anxiety sounds more plausible though.

Again this term. But what comes first? Math anxiety or dyscalculia in whatever severity?

I know as a kid I had great trouble in grade school, from like the first year on, with, I guess it is called arithmetic then. My parents bought me toys that would increase skills with it. Like a little 'computer' with sliding buttons hiding the answers to things like 1+2. On paper cards. Replace the card and u get different things to solve.

I have report cards from those days that state I am way behind. One says that I worked really hard, don't remember working hard, to catch up, but that I would have trouble next year. They did let me pass that year.

But I always lagged behind other kids.

So my older brother got the task of helping me. This was an utter disaster because of family dynamics. He was favorite and abused his position to disrespect me. I could not learn anything from him because I had to be like him and I just couldn't, mentally and personality-wise.

Later in grade school I remember getting homework. In our schools in grade school u never got homework, see? That is an american thing. Or maybe it changed, I don't know. But I had to do these exercises. I was mad and afraid and threw the book on a shelf, left the classrroom to go home. But I felt guilty and picked it up, went home.

The usual math session with my mother in my beck and my brother next to me, at the living room table, was one of yelling, crying, frustration. Mother being annoyed with my not listening to your brother. My brother with every agony of mine boosting his own ego.

So yes, Math Fear. But what came first? I think in my case the problems with arithmetic. Then anxiety from falling behind and getting bad scores on my report cards every semester. And that demotivates. And then having an evil bastard as a bother and a fucked bitch of a mother...

That only undermined any possible improvement I could have made. In the end in high school you get some calculations with chemistry, I had a class called 'trade knowledge' which is a precursor to general economics, so I learned the theory as well as I could, definitions and stuff.

But the formulae and actual calculations were so so.

My business oriented education was a three year one, but I did it in six years, basically because I failed persistently on anything math related.

So there too I would study the chapters with theory as well I could and even some formulae but when I got a test I would only give the formula and not do the actual filling in of the numbers.

So at least I scored perhaps 2/5 of maximum available points on a calculation. Just writing down the formula gets you at least 1 point.

This is how I got my diploma. I also cheated my ass off at the finals, with little papers hidden everywhere holding formula's.

I remember my economics teacher giving me a thumbs up, because I id better than I would have in class. I felt a little ashamed. But giving the formulae just got me that rate I needed, with the rest compensated by non-math classes.

So math to me is hell. Yes I fear it. But I think at the base was the difficulty with it all. So dyscalculia first.

I wonder f others here have similar experiences?

I'm curious to hear about other people's experiences with math.

And about INTPs being similar to those diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, I think you might be right about that. INTPs are not very social, would rather occupy their own thoughts, and have minimal displays of emotions when compared to other personality types(I've been called cold as ice by people I know when it's not true) but I think that's where the similarities end.

Well, I know I am not autistic. Or maybe ever so slightly. I did have some peculiar things, like I always walked on the front of my feet. I think that is an autistic thing. So my 'gait' ? was odd?

But I cannot get over this axis going from autistic, to AD(H)D to INTP. They need to do more research or comparative studies on the similarities. Is there a common whatever going on and where is the cutoff from what we call a personality type to a personality disorder. To do that, you ened math skills :-)

Good luck with that. Number stuff is not for me but INTP-ness is about a vectored process of dealing with reality in a specific way, which can be hooked onto anything, not just logic based math but also on psychoanalysis e.g. It is about pattern recognition and analysis.

 

[principle]

Aspergers is a mild form of autism. Autism involves trouble sorting sensory input. Those who are severely autistic but able to communicate via text describe normal everyday sensory inputs as overwhelming, blinking lights and the sounds of vehicles driving by cause them to feel like they are on fire or at a laser bass mega-techno festival, textures of clothing can put them in a straitjacket filled with poison ivy. Hence why people with aspergers are obsessed with categorizing things, it soothes their minds, making it easier for them to cope with abundant contents of the world.

Does being an INTP really correlate with aspergers, is it really that similar? From a behavioristic viewpoint it does I guess. Phenomenologically I doubt it, INTPs are oblivious to the external world, not intruded upon by it.

Well if intp's have a strong sense to categorize things, can't an INTP try to master the understanding of the external world as one of their "things"?

 

[Pfness]

I think I'm pretty much in the same boat in terms of mathematics.

For instance, if I try to find the percentage of a number say 20% of 360. I think in my mind 10% of 360 = 36*2 =72, which probably is very inefficient. The only math related things I've done at school have been related to the realm of accounting, which i am pretty horrible at. For me, I think I'd be much better in accounting if I were able to utilize the softwares utilized with it, because I am more efficient at using a computer ( I can type faster, read faster, organize information more efficiently than on a piece of paper).

But when it comes down to memorizing the processes and writing it all down on a blank piece of paper, it's like a brain freeze. I can memorize how to draw the entire accounting cycle on a page. But when the professor gives us the figures in which to account, and then adds trick questions on an exam I immediately get caught up in the details and run out of time.

This math inadequacy is extremely stressful, but after university I think I will have no choice but to attempt to take some remedial courses

 

[Variform]

Well if intp's have a strong sense to categorize things, can't an INTP try to master the understanding of the external world as one of their "things"?

So what about people who collect things. Stamps, beer bottle labels, anything really.
Would that come out of a drive to categorize the world?

 

[Lot]

Does being an INTP really correlate with aspergers, is it really that similar?

No. Not even close.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Well if intp's have a strong sense to categorize things, can't an INTP try to master the understanding of the external world as one of their "things"?

People with Aspergers categorize obsessively. What they categorize matters less to them than the act of doing it. It really isn't similar to what INTPs do, as intuitives they categorize abstract principles and conceptual relationships, not timetables for busses or trains, or all the species within a specific genus of plants.

 

[ENTP lurker]

As I wrote earlier Hans Aspergers described autistic personality disorder sufferer as detached from the present world, having great deal of abstract thought, very little interests in practical reality, troubles with automatization (sequental steps, routine).
When I watched recent lecture about Aspergers it didn't sound alike at all. I mean WTF! It was all about routines, no abstract thought, very concrete mindset, immersion to stimuli.

It is a wellknown fact that some softer science practisers don't understand very hard core science at all. They view it as collection of pregiven formulas (xSTx engineers mindset). I want to serve them a facepalm.

On a sidenote I read a cosmology professor's story where he told that as a child he was collecting register plate strings. Odd. Very INTP like character, actually. As Ne dom I never felt compulsion to that. Instead I made lots of strange questions, theorized our existence etc. INTP abstraction probaply develops little bit later but it is hell of combination to live closer to border of Ne-Si. I mean my ability to do stuff with detail is weak and draining.

 

[Hawkeye]

Those with Aspergers tend to take what you say literally. They are not very good with jokes or facial expressions.

 

[ActiveMind]

I've pretty much always sucked at math to where I have to count with fingers at times. I believe my understanding of math concepts was damaged at an early age. Its quite frustrating since I'm able to apply other logic based concepts quite well. I tried Kumon before but was coerced into taking it by an ESFJ mom and eventually refused to go back. Do INTPs typically do well with alternate math education?

 

[Variform]

Never heard of Kumon. I checked it. I don't think it was available when I was a kid. I recognized some of the stuff I had in school. But I am at level E, which is fractions. Anything beyond I don't get.

2 1/4 x 8/21 = well you tell me.

If you see how far it goes the whole system is not a repair kit, it is all math until you get to university it seems. It is just a complete education. And you are supposed to that BESIDES normal school?

I understand very well what it feels like to have dyslexia.

I get irritated and nervous and feel like shit when I see the all this and the video about Emily and what she learns.

 

[BigApplePi]

Interesting thread. I can talk to most of it but would rather just pick out a few points. As a background, I'm a math person so you can ask me about math difficulties and I would try to answer. I taught calculus to freshmen in grad school and did a modest amount of math tutoring, some of it for pay.

INTPs verus Aspergers? INTPs have only two requirements: A fondness to think about stuff and an interest in scanning the outside world for an intuitive feeling about it as nourishment for thinking. They just like thinking, which is not the same as being good at it. With all that practice though, it's not surprising some skill would eventually be obtained. I am probably a good example of this as from time-to-time on this Forum you can find me thinking well and at other times thinking inadequately.

Aspergers? I associate that with someone who focuses on some inner "thinking." That would be Ti like the INTP. But it is rigid, not easily going outside that. Where is the Ne scanning? What about Se scanning? That could be picked up and manipulated. I see the difference is the INTP is flexible and can expand to other cognitive functions if they work at it. The Aspergers person is naturally focused because of difficulties with other functions.

How much they can be taught is an interesting question. The reason why they wouldn't get jokes would be because jokes require a comparison (absurd) between things. As long an a Aspergers sees only one thing at a time, there is no joke. Notice that an INTP who is extremely serious about something wouldn't see a joke about it either, not because they can't, but because they don't want to.

Jokes remind me of the jokes I heard about handicapped* people as a kid. The fellows would laugh at them. But anyone who took their condition seriously would get angry as they refused to see such jokes as funny. There is an irony about this situation which if you have read down this far I will talk to if asked.

*Then there was no such term as "physically challenged."

 

[ENTP lurker]

Bit far fetched:

Well, Ne and Ti (maybe Fi) makes people quite passive. Out of the ESFJs, ISFJs, ENTPs and INTPs only the ESFJ is seemingly active. Some cases the ENTP could be as well.

According to socionics even ENTp is averse to routine changes. I'm very open when it comes to mental stuff but taking action in the real world... not a big fan. Not strictly scheduled but... I rather do some brainstorming.

Let just say I was very "mental", observer, connector but still social wanting to discuss about intellectual stuff with others. Sometimes I was goofing around.
For example, I wanted to ramble with kids about different continents. That is considered sign of ASD. I wasn't into lecturing, though. My intellectual interests weren't narrow.

But the cognitive challenges. I don't identify with them. Maybe my perception is just different. I see ASD like traits in xSFJ types when I compare their behavior to the symptom list (meaning that I don't consider them disordered).