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INTP with a developed Fe?

warryer

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I am not well versed in typology but I do understand the basics of function order. At first I believed I was INTP then I lead myself to believe that maybe I am INFJ. The descriptions match yet, I did not take a clear look at function order. Now I am beginning to think that I am in fact an INTP but, with a developed Fe.

What would help me to determine this is a portrait of what an INTP with a developed Fe might look like. Or some source from which I can further my knowledge on this subject.
 

Dimensional Transition

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I feel like I can imagine very well how a person must feel in certain positions, and I communicate with others about their and my feelings a lot... I don't have a lot of other information though, but I think I know what you mean.
 

MatthewSawyer

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Try the thread titled cognitive functions 100. It is a sticky at the top of this section of the forum.

Intp suppresses Fe. So I don't see how an intp can develop Fe without a lot of effort. But then again, I am far from an expert on MBTI or typology.
 

BigApplePi

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warryer. Keep talkin'. I will assume you are INTP until suspected otherwise. I am modestly aware of my emotions and others. I just don't believe in them. I have to always stop and think what I'm feelings or others. It's so easy to miss.
 

GYX_Kid

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obviously an INTP can very easily "empathize" via coldly observant understanding, but yeah actual Fe... how do you do it. :confused:

theory: coldly observant understanding gets processed into Ti and then possibly synthesizes Fi, = feelings pertaining to outward world. a speedier process can basically manifest as Fe?
 

Jennywocky

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I am not well versed in typology but I do understand the basics of function order. At first I believed I was INTP then I lead myself to believe that maybe I am INFJ. The descriptions match yet, I did not take a clear look at function order. Now I am beginning to think that I am in fact an INTP but, with a developed Fe.

What would help me to determine this is a portrait of what an INTP with a developed Fe might look like. Or some source from which I can further my knowledge on this subject.

I was raised by ISFJs, and typically my secondary type is suggested to be INFJ if INTP wouldn't be right.

I still operate from the rational/intuitive basic of INTP, but I'm very very aware of all the Fe currents floating around me. It's kinda like the Matrix -- I can see the world in standard Ti+Ne ways, where I'm looking at the substance/equations of everything (objects, motion, process, etc) -- but I also see Fe that way whenever I walk into any situation involving other people. I can see all the links between people and know what they expect to hear, what is appropriate and what is not, how things will play, what the rules of the environment are, etc.

I also take people's emotions into account rather than dismissing them. INTPs without Fe tend to see the entire Fe world as illusory and, aside from often not even perceiving it, dismiss it as irrelevant. And what is perceived often feels like an enslavement or arbitrary infringement on others.

I felt that way a lot when younger, but I actually have grown to see it as a valuable system and other perspective. I also see people's emotional states and psychological maturity/POV as relevant to life and part of life and worth investing in. Fe describes our connections, attachments, and commitments to other people around us. And especially when we are discussing psychological and behavior and relationships, we have to perceive and take into account their emotional states, the social expectations of relevant relationships, their values, etc. Otherwise you're flying completely blind.

And if you CAN know and read those things, you can actually have a pretty good idea going into a situation of exactly how things will unfold.

Anyway, the NJF part of me interacting with the NTP in relational settings basically leads to a few assumptions, including: (1) social rules are arbitrary in the sense they are a perspective, rather than being universally true, (2) violating the rules in a particular context is a sign of disrespecting the people around you if you happen to be a guest or want to integrate into a community, and (3) the act of violating the ruleset or conforming to it is putting off cues about you that are read by others within the group, so you can use compliance/resistance to signal your relational commitment in those contexts. There are probably others as well, I just don't have time to think about it more right now.

In any case, it's like I have this whole other set of eyes that I can use to view the world, even if internally I'm still operating from the NT perspective. I also have another whole set of hands I can use to operate in the Fe world, if necessary.
 

BigApplePi

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obviously an INTP can very easily "empathize" via coldly observant understanding, but yeah actual Fe... how do you do it. :confused:

theory: coldly observant understanding gets processed into Ti and then possibly synthesizes Fi, = feelings pertaining to outward world. a speedier process can basically manifest as Fe?
Here is an example (I hope) of Fe going on right now. It may be difficult to understand the discussion , but I interpreted a prior rational discussion as having feelings creeping in here.
I have little idea whether my reply will help, but I can try to see where the other person is coming from here.

 

SpaceYeti

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warryer. Keep talkin'. I will assume you are INTP until suspected otherwise. I am modestly aware of my emotions and others. I just don't believe in them. I have to always stop and think what I'm feelings or others. It's so easy to miss.
... How do you "not believe" in your emotions? Also, being aware of your emotions I find to be the hard part. I pay so little attention to them by default, sometimes I don't realize what kind of mood I'm in.
 

BigApplePi

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... How do you "not believe" in your emotions? Also, being aware of your emotions I find to be the hard part. I pay so little attention to them by default, sometimes I don't realize what kind of mood I'm in.
That's a good Q. Well, and this is just an opinion, I'm so busy thinking of stuff, I am not interested in what my emotions (feelings/desires) are. I'm interested in whatever the topic is. But I once took an interest in knowing about emotions themselves. So I became (by training) more experienced in quickly identifying what they were. If I want to stop and ask myself, "what am I feeling, I can." In your example of mood, I don't follow along noticing what my mood is. It goes. Only if it gives me trouble do I stop and ask, "what the f is this?"

Now as to this "belief." That is a little tricky. Right now there is a thread going about democracy. I feel "enthusiastic" about the thread. But f that enthusiasm. Others may not be really interested. My favoring some kind of democratic gov't may be erroneous. People are saying they doubt democracy. They could be right. What I feel has little bearing on the content of what is uncovered other than the desire to uncover it.

I'm not sure I answered what you ask.
 

SpaceYeti

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You didn't.

When it comes right down to it, preference for government is up to taste, like all preferences. I'm against a pure democracy, as it would be a tyranny of the masses. I'm also against communism, as it's simply unrealistic as well as unfair. But when it comes right down to it, what people want out of a government is up to their own preferences, unrealistic or unfair as it may be. That's why I tend not to get involved in political threads. Politics is preference based, and who am I to tell someone they're wrong for having a preference?
 

GYX_Kid

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Here is an example (I hope) of Fe going on right now. It may be difficult to understand the discussion , but I interpreted a prior rational discussion as having feelings creeping in here.
I have little idea whether my reply will help, but I can try to see where the other person is coming from here.


fine lines between disagreement and "OFFENDED- WEAK SHIT" over there?

i feel ya bro, feelings are gay.
:cat:
 

Artsu Tharaz

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I like helping others, showing compassion and support when I can, empathising. I'm generally polite (when I can recognise what being polite would require), and don't like to hurt others' feelings or letting people down. I'll act as a mediator of sorts when there is a dispute.

However, while doing these things, I believe the Fe is just telling me to do a particular thing, and then lets the Ti takeover, to analyse the situation logically (from the context of helping the other person, giving advice etc). I don't actively sort out relationships, try to connect with many people, or do other more active/decision-making things associated with Fe, partly out of not desiring to, partly out of not being able to.

I'm not sure whether this counts as developed Fe, but I don't think I do any suppressing of it. Then again, there's always the possibility that I could be INFJ (?).
 

Deridaburi

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It seems more likely that a person would be NiFeTiSe(INFJ) with a strong Ti than TiNeSiFe(INTP) with a strong Fe.
 

warryer

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In any case, it's like I have this whole other set of eyes that I can use to view the world, even if internally I'm still operating from the NT perspective. I also have another whole set of hands I can use to operate in the Fe world, if necessary.

This sums it up pretty nicely. Your whole post reverberates with me but, I didn't want to quote the whole thing. I can feel :D it coming across this post. Very much what I was looking for.

I can understand people's emotions so well and am usually pretty good about predicting what actions will make them feel what way. This causes me some inner struggles. It feels so wrong because its like getting a glimpse of their true selves which they may not want to reveal.

It's like having a pair of x-ray glasses even though people wear clothes to hide their nakedness.


@BAP

You strike me as someone with Fe leaking out... all over the damn carpet dammit - again? It makes your posts more personable and therefore imo more readable.

@MatthewSawyer

The sticky does provide good insight to what Fe means. Who could have imagined that a sticky would contain useful information? I think a lot of my misconception is coming from the Fe vs Ti battle.

@artsu

I find that I do that too. Your post backs up what was posted in Adymus' sticky.
 

BigApplePi

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Try the thread titled cognitive functions 100. It is a sticky at the top of this section of the forum.

Intp suppresses Fe. So I don't see how an intp can develop Fe without a lot of effort. But then again, I am far from an expert on MBTI or typology.
I suppose Ti and Fe don't go on simultaneously. That's fine. If a type favors Ti, suppose for the sake of argument 5% is given to Fe. Then if one really develops their Ti, one will automatically allow for more Fe.

Example: One is upset because they haven't studied something. "Upset" is not a very good control of emotions. It's embarrassing to talk to others about or if talked about it's not a matter of pride. Undeveloped Fe.

Then they go ahead and study. This changes everything. They have a measured mastery. There may be some anxiety about the topic, but since one has learned more they can use their new confidence to talk to others or take a test. A better Fe.
 

BigApplePi

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@BAP
You strike me as someone with Fe leaking out... all over the damn carpet dammit - again? It makes your posts more personable and therefore imo more readable.
I can see you are working on Fe also. Yes sometimes I work on being more personable. But not so if I'm caught up in something requiring difficult thinking. If I have undeveloped Ti, developing Fe tends to lose out.

Yeah. That is deliberate because I get into a peck of trouble leaning into what others believe. Right now I have three people in my life I'm leaning on about their beliefs. As long as I ask them questions about their area of beliefs they love me. I'm kinda sensitive/insensitive to this. I'm really looking for a chink in their armor. In no way is that personal. I don't want to hurt them. By "chink in armor" I really mean flaws in a proof. No mathematician (my background) would accept a theorem (thesis) without proof. In the outside world this translates into "I can't accept a belief without thorough examination."

Now one can ask, why don't I simply continue analyzing and uncover flaws? Answer: I say these people are to be strongly admired because they believe in something, a system, and run with it for their lives. It's that important to them. So why shouldn't I respect that? So I have a conflict between disrespecting them and disrespecting myself. I could talk on about this but I don't want to bore you guys.

Proxy, if you are reading this, you are not one of the three people. You are too smart and flexible for that. Yet you can see how I lean into you, lol.
 

BigApplePi

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You didn't.

When it comes right down to it, preference for government is up to taste, like all preferences. I'm against a pure democracy, as it would be a tyranny of the masses. I'm also against communism, as it's simply unrealistic as well as unfair. But when it comes right down to it, what people want out of a government is up to their own preferences, unrealistic or unfair as it may be. That's why I tend not to get involved in political threads. Politics is preference based, and who am I to tell someone they're wrong for having a preference?
SpaceYeti. There is a big difference in how one would personally like to be treated by a government (throw all benefits my way), and standing back setting up a theoretical government one seeks the best for from a distance as a social proposition.

You've already said you disfavor some governments. That leaves the ones you haven't decided on. What if I put you in a room and didn't let you out until you came up with something that met your own approval? There are posters here who would be willing to slide your dinner under the door.
 

warryer

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I can see you are working on Fe also. Yes sometimes I work on being more personable. But not so if I'm caught up in something requiring difficult thinking. If I have undeveloped Ti, developing Fe tends to lose out.

Yeah. That is deliberate because I get into a peck of trouble leaning into what others believe. Right now I have three people in my life I'm leaning on about their beliefs. As long as I ask them questions about their area of beliefs they love me. I'm kinda sensitive/insensitive to this. I'm really looking for a chink in their armor. In no way is that personal. I don't want to hurt them. By "chink in armor" I really mean flaws in a proof. No mathematician (my background) would accept a theorem (thesis) without proof. In the outside world this translates into "I can't accept a belief without thorough examination."

Now one can ask, why don't I simply continue analyzing and uncover flaws? Answer: I say these people are to be strongly admired because they believe in something, a system, and run with it for their lives. It's that important to them. So why shouldn't I respect that?

I am going to assume that you are talking about solving their true character and seeing if what they display is a good representation of that character. If my assumption is correct then I do understand what you are talking about.

People would give me grief about me making "accusations" about their character. Would say things like "you don't even know me" or "I don't want you to 'get' me." That is exactly what I was trying to do.

So I have a conflict between disrespecting them and disrespecting myself. I could talk on about this but I don't want to bore you guys.

THIS! Is something which can get me in trouble. Lately though I have been more careful about choosing my words and sometimes holding back for the sake of keeping the peace.

----

What I have been trying to do is when I have a relatively big decision to make I stop and think about my choices and then I weigh in on how I feel about each possible decision. That way I give my feelings a chance to be heard and expressed so, they don't well up inside.
 

SpaceYeti

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SpaceYeti. There is a big difference in how one would personally like to be treated by a government (throw all benefits my way), and standing back setting up a theoretical government one seeks the best for from a distance as a social proposition.

You've already said you disfavor some governments. That leaves the ones you haven't decided on. What if I put you in a room and didn't let you out until you came up with something that met your own approval? There are posters here who would be willing to slide your dinner under the door.
The difference isn't really that big. A government necessarily governs more than only one person, so there's no government that will do whatever it is you, exclusively, desire. People don't ignore that fact when deciding on their preferred government. Rich people favor fair tax, poor people favor increased tax with increased income, etc etc. Few people favor aspects of government that isn't actually somehow beneficial to them or serving of their personal tastes.
 

BigApplePi

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The difference isn't really that big. A government necessarily governs more than only one person, so there's no government that will do whatever it is you, exclusively, desire. People don't ignore that fact when deciding on their preferred government. Rich people favor fair tax, poor people favor increased tax with increased income, etc etc. Few people favor aspects of government that isn't actually somehow beneficial to them or serving of their personal tastes.
SpaceYeti your statement is so well put (for me) and is a perfect lead in for discussion on this thread: Improve Democracy?
Do you mind if I quote you and reply over there? I will honor your answer as you said this, "I tend not to get involved in political threads."
 

Jennywocky

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It seems more likely that a person would be NiFeTiSe(INFJ) with a strong Ti than TiNeSiFe(INTP) with a strong Fe.

True. I've met more INFJs with strong tertiary Ti's than INTPs with strong inferior Fe.

But their Ni leads gives them that NFJ ethereal flavor, and then you can see them using Ti as a supportive function to "explain their intuitions" -- you know they already know their answer, they're just trying to translate it. And because of the Fe thing, when INFJ women talk about others, they might talk about their psychology alot but I've also seen them focus on small-talk detail and how it all interfaces. They thus tend to come across as a bit more "serious" because their main extroverted function is a people-centered judgment function.

Ti naturally comes to its conclusions itself, so explaining itself means merely recounting the steps for everyone. It gives a different feel to the writing; you can tell Ti is a more natural language for those people. Also, Ne is the primary extroverted function, so if INTPs go in any direction, it's usually into flexy play mode, spinning puns, building connections, whatever else. If they're not communicating directly through Ti (like I am here, to explain things), they come across as less serious and more playful.

MatthewSawyer said:
So I don't see how an intp can develop Fe without a lot of effort. But then again, I am far from an expert on MBTI or typology.

For anyone to develop an inferior to any degree of competence takes a LOT of effort... or an inability to avoid using it.

Basically, I had no choice, and it took me into my 30's to have any real sense of competence. (I'm still not naturally Fe, I have to choose to put on the clothes so to speak.) It was actually kind of a painful growth and I don't think I would have chosen it if I hadn't grown up in a family of Fe people and been married to an ISFJ and was trying so hard to make things work... whatever the benefits. Those years were kind of agonizing, but it was pretty clear to me that, ability-wise, I had much more potential to develop Fe than the SFJs had to develop decent Ti and N, so... that's what I, as the clear minority in that survival situation, did.
 

Adymus

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True. I've met more INFJs with strong tertiary Ti's than INTPs with strong inferior Fe.

But their Ni leads gives them that NFJ ethereal flavor, and then you can see them using Ti as a supportive function to "explain their intuitions" -- you know they already know their answer, they're just trying to translate it. And because of the Fe thing, when INFJ women talk about others, they might talk about their psychology alot but I've also seen them focus on small-talk detail and how it all interfaces. They thus tend to come across as a bit more "serious" because their main extroverted function is a people-centered judgment function.

Ti naturally comes to its conclusions itself, so explaining itself means merely recounting the steps for everyone. It gives a different feel to the writing; you can tell Ti is a more natural language for those people. Also, Ne is the primary extroverted function, so if INTPs go in any direction, it's usually into flexy play mode, spinning puns, building connections, whatever else. If they're not communicating directly through Ti (like I am here, to explain things), they come across as less serious and more playful.



For anyone to develop an inferior to any degree of competence takes a LOT of effort... or an inability to avoid using it.
As a person who has dealt with a LOT of INFJs (specifically ones who thought they were INTPs) on this forum (And in general), I can tell you that you are making some very risky assumptions here.

For one, INFJs don't always know their answer, they are human too, they also need time to take in information and let their Ni get the lay of the land. Ni is actually the slowest function when it comes to building an understanding, it needs to wait and take in a lot of information before it can freely move through it all. In that period of waiting, you are going to see a lot of Ti based questions, because their Ni is being built with a lot of Ti-Se components, that their Ni-Fe is going to Synthesize into something more.
When you see an INFJ articulating their Ni while Ti calibrates it, then you are right, Ti is supportive, but that is not always obvious in text.
INFJs are also not always going to be pure on target, they often go on tangents too (some much more than others), which can look like Ne, even though it isn't.
There are many many many different models of INFJ, many of which kind of look like how some of the other types (Like INTPs and ENTPs for instance) are "Supposed" to look.

Drawing boundaries like you are doing, "this type acts this way", "and that type acts that way", almost always sets you up for misreading people. And trying to read a person via text is probably the worse way you could possibly do it. There is always something you are not seeing, text is only the end result of what people are doing cognitively behind the screen (hence people once thinking I am an xNTJ or sorts, all they see is me pushing information, they don't see that My Ti is being impinged first, which makes me want to come out and correct them.)

I'm telling you this because I have made many of the erroneous assumptions you are making in the past, and it has nearly always screwed me over in the end.
 

SpaceYeti

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SpaceYeti your statement is so well put (for me) and is a perfect lead in for discussion on this thread: Improve Democracy?
Do you mind if I quote you and reply over there? I will honor your answer as you said this, "I tend not to get involved in political threads."
Go ahead.
 

Cavallier

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I can understand people's emotions so well and am usually pretty good about predicting what actions will make them feel what way. This causes me some inner struggles. It feels so wrong because its like getting a glimpse of their true selves which they may not want to reveal.

This...well, sort of. I know a few handful of types very well (you know...friends) that rely on Fe a lot. If I am having difficulty accessing or understand Fe in a given situation then I imagine what their reaction might be if they were in my place. I also analyze my friends to the point that I frighten them with my ability to predict their reactions. It's kind of like a party trick. ;)

I don't know if I can use Fe but I can recognize it's symptoms. (I don't mean to infer that Fe is at all a disease by the use of the word "symptoms" or in any way negative.)
 

GYX_Kid

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I also analyze my friends to the point that I frighten them with my ability to predict their reactions. It's kind of like a party trick. ;)

is that more likely Fe than Ne?

wild guess
Fe... ability to get a decisive "feeling" for someone quickly, more based off social wisdom?
Ne, seems like more of a "psychic" prediction, more based off analytical vibes?

maybe i'm imagining more specifically FJ and NP
 

Artsu Tharaz

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As a person who has dealt with a LOT of INFJs (specifically ones who thought they were INTPs) on this forum (And in general)

I only considered the possibility that I might be INFJ about a week ago (when someone questioned my INTPness in a conversation I was imagining, concluding with me confidently ruling out every other type except INFJ), but now that I've considered it more and more I'm at a point where I think it might be more likely that I really am INFJ.

Having dealt with many people in a similar situation, do you know of some simple ways to tell whether one really is one way or the other? aside from making a video and being read, which I guess I'll get around to doing eventually.

I think I might have Ni with support from Ti, being confused as solely Ti (or Ti+Ne), and a stronger Fe which seems weaker due to lack of social connections/social ineptness. Inferior Se also seems more likely than teriary Si. On the other hand, I could just be interpreting everything under the assumption that the view I'm holding is the correct one, as I have a tendency to do. ehhh.
 

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Well normally I would say: No, there is really no reliable binary principle that I can point you to, that would allow to safely assume "if you do this" then you are certainly an INFJ. At least, not one that I can feel confident that you would interpret correctly (Which is not to say that you are incapable of interpreting a simple message, but sometime certain principles behind how functions work sound like other ones... if that makes sense.)

But considering you just named two things that sound VERY INFJ to me, I will elaborate on those.

(when someone questioned my INTPness in a conversation I was imagining, concluding with me confidently ruling out every other type except INFJ)
This. This times five-billion. Anyone with Fe can technically run social simulations, where they can personify themselves, as well as other people or things (not necessarily human or even living), and how said situation would dynamically play out. However, the INFJ's ability to do this Blow's the INTP's ability to do this out of the water, because A.) it is Ni-Fe, not Si-Fe and B.) it is not polar for the INFJs like it is for the INTPs. So INFJs can go into their Ni and personify entire social situations, and how they would play out. Even ridiculously random ones like "What if that guy was actually a Ninja? *Plays that scenario in Ni-Fe*"

Have you ever seen the show Scrubs? Okay well it is like when JD looks off to the upper left and starts daydreaming random scenarios. Ni-Fe is actually just like that. Now a lot of people say that JD is an ENFP, and what he is doing is Ne. That is complete bullshit, Ne does not work like that at all (we don't have full on structured dream sequences), and they are only saying that because of how random it is, although every Intuitive function is very random. Not just Ne. But for some reason people have this idea that Ne has a monopoly on randomness. But I digress.

On the other hand, I could just be interpreting everything under the assumption that the view I'm holding is the correct one, as I have a tendency to do. ehhh.
Also this.
Just the way that you described your thought process sounds like you are an Ni perspective shifter to me. The fact that you know that it starts with a perspective, and how you look at something will define all of the principles and assumptions that follow. Believe it or not, it is actually not like that for INTPs, our Position, our understanding actually defines how we look at something (Discernment first, then perception.)
The Process of Ni begins with detachment, the assumption that their assumptions are wrong, and the only way to see the truth is to by looking at it from a clean slate. Because when things don't add up, chances are it because you made some false assumptions somewhere along the line that you shouldn't have. It is actually very mathematics, when you made a miscalculation somewhere down the line, Ni will want you to toss the whole problem and start over, and conceptualize the whole problem in an even bigger scope, taking into account what it had not before. Looking at the whole lay of the land at different angles, seeing what was once paradoxical as harmonious. As Paradoxes are only Paradoxical when your Paradigms cause them to be.

Anyway, I advocate that you just get yourself read, it is the most reliable means bar none, and it will surely end your suffering. Humans were just not meant to read themselves with a system where they would actually have incentive to want to be something they may not be, just because it sounds like something they value more. A lot of what I say can be confusing from an outsider's perspective, and will often get you going "I think I do that... Right? Or maybe not... No, yeah, I think I do... Or not..."
 

Jennywocky

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Have you ever seen the show Scrubs? Okay well it is like when JD looks off to the upper left and starts daydreaming random scenarios. Ni-Fe is actually just like that. Now a lot of people say that JD is an ENFP, and what he is doing is Ne. That is complete bullshit, Ne does not work like that at all (we don't have full on structured dream sequences), and they are only saying that because of how random it is, although every Intuitive function is very random. Not just Ne. But for some reason people have this idea that Ne has a monopoly on randomness. But I digress.

Maybe it's just summarized as N, then... or imagination in general.

MBTI is not gospel.

Which means the sharp delineation between I/E aspects of the same functions is not gospel either.

PS. Scrubs is awesome.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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Thanks for the response.

Well normally I would say: No, there is really no reliable binary principle that I can point you to, that would allow to safely assume "if you do this" then you are certainly an INFJ. At least, not one that I can feel confident that you would interpret correctly (Which is not to say that you are incapable of interpreting a simple message, but sometime certain principles behind how functions work sound like other ones... if that makes sense.)

I definitely get you, and was just thinking this same sort of thing. This is the sort of thing I meant with the second bit you quoted.

But considering you just named two things that sound VERY INFJ to me, I will elaborate on those.
I figured you'd be able to make inferences based on those comments. (but I wasn't picking specifically INFJ ones or anything - I was unsure of what functions it would relate to). I feel like there could easily be a large number of things I could mention that would be stereotypically INTP instead.

This. This times five-billion. Anyone with Fe can technically run social simulations, where they can personify themselves, as well as other people or things (not necessarily human or even living), and how said situation would dynamically play out. However, the INFJ's ability to do this Blow's the INTP's ability to do this out of the water, because A.) it is Ni-Fe, not Si-Fe and B.) it is not polar for the INFJs like it is for the INTPs. So INFJs can go into their Ni and personify entire social situations, and how they would play out. Even ridiculously random ones like "What if that guy was actually a Ninja? *Plays that scenario in Ni-Fe*"
I don't know how well I capture the social dynamics. Basically, I view these kinds of scenarios as being almost exactly like a Socratic/Platonic dialogue - and, while I know you can't necessarily type someone based on their writings, I feel that my mental processes are very similar to Plato's, and that I'm probably the same type as him (I don't know how familiar you are with him).

I also play out situations of a different kind, but I'm unsure of how to explain it at the moment.

Have you ever seen the show Scrubs? Okay well it is like when JD looks off to the upper left and starts daydreaming random scenarios. Ni-Fe is actually just like that. Now a lot of people say that JD is an ENFP, and what he is doing is Ne. That is complete bullshit, Ne does not work like that at all (we don't have full on structured dream sequences), and they are only saying that because of how random it is, although every Intuitive function is very random. Not just Ne. But for some reason people have this idea that Ne has a monopoly on randomness. But I digress.
When I do play a scenario, it's usually after I've been unoccupied for a long period of time, allowing my mind to wander until eventually some scenario relating to what my thoughts had been about lately forms. I've never really identified with JD, nor any other INFJs that I've come across thus far - could this be evidence that I'm not INFJ, or might this be a result of the very personal nature of Ni, if this is indeed my dominant function?

Anyway, I advocate that you just get yourself read, it is the most reliable means bar none, and it will surely end your suffering. Humans were just not meant to read themselves with a system where they would actually have incentive to want to be something they may not be, just because it sounds like something they value more. A lot of what I say can be confusing from an outsider's perspective, and will often get you going "I think I do that... Right? Or maybe not... No, yeah, I think I do... Or not..."
I'll get around to it eventually - and will do so before claiming definitively to be either type. For now, I'll reflect some more on it (there's no suffering at all - I like having my mind occupied and there hadn't been much else going on up there lately).
 

BigApplePi

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I am going to assume that you are talking about solving their true character and seeing if what they display is a good representation of that character. If my assumption is correct then I do understand what you are talking about.

People would give me grief about me making "accusations" about their character. Would say things like "you don't even know me" or "I don't want you to 'get' me." That is exactly what I was trying to do.
Hi warryer. I may have lost the train of thought here, so I will just talk. I've let this perculate the last couple days. I guess it is important to respect what another believes in and it is only if one believes their belief is harmful, that I would feel okay in interfering. The problem is, if I or anyone questions another's belief, it's often hard to tell if they take great pride in their belief, if they are honest, or if (I forget what I wanted to say here.) Perhaps the best conversations are when both parties are exploring and want to find out how to change, embellish or fix things that are less than perfect.
THIS! Is something which can get me in trouble. Lately though I have been more careful about choosing my words and sometimes holding back for the sake of keeping the peace.
It helps when both sides are willing to forgive the other. Yet one can control only one's own side.
What I have been trying to do is when I have a relatively big decision to make I stop and think about my choices and then I weigh in on how I feel about each possible decision. That way I give my feelings a chance to be heard and expressed so, they don't well up inside.
That's where I am uncertain if that is "feeling" or "intuition." Perhaps intuition is a judgment on thinking while feeling is a pleasant or unpleasant "sensation" about the intuition being right or wrong. (I'm probably using all those terms wrongly, lol).
 

Jennywocky

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MBTI is indeed not gospel.
But Adymus isn't talking about MBTI.

Splitting hairs with me?
He's talking function theory which is usually discussed in accordance with typical MBTI discussions.

But if you need me to spell it out for you:
Function theory is not gospel. :rolleyes:
 

Adymus

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Maybe it's just summarized as N, then... or imagination in general.
When it comes to a show being written by a human being, is there really such a thing as imagination in general?

Imagination is intuition, it is one and the same. When a writer puts these kind of motifs into a storyline, they are getting how it works from somewhere. Probably themselves. It wouldn't be general Intuition because people don't experience intuition in general (Not on a conscious level anyway), we only have conscious access to one or the other.

Splitting Ni and Ne with a strict delineation can be tricky, no doubt, but when you see it illustrated in the way that it is on Scrubs, then it makes things much easier.

Either way, you are missing my point. My point is that Ni-Fe speculation can be very much like JD's daydream tangents, and Ne is not really like that. Whether or not that was supposed to be the process of Ni-Fe is completely irrelevant, I only added in the part about it not being Ne because whenever I use that example, I usually get push-back with "But I thought JD was an ENFP!?"
 

crippli

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This. This times five-billion. Anyone with Fe can technically run social simulations, where they can personify themselves, as well as other people or things (not necessarily human or even living), and how said situation would dynamically play out. However, the INFJ's ability to do this Blow's the INTP's ability to do this out of the water, because A.) it is Ni-Fe, not Si-Fe and B.) it is not polar for the INFJs like it is for the INTPs. So INFJs can go into their Ni and personify entire social situations, and how they would play out. Even ridiculously random ones like "What if that guy was actually a Ninja? *Plays that scenario in Ni-Fe*"
How will Fe differentiate from Ne in this regard? both are abstract, yes?
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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The focus of Ni-Fe is anticipating situations. After all, INFJs are judgers. So, when we imagine what could happen (Ni) in terms of social dynamics (Fe), we're doing Ni-Fe. Take a note that the focus is in the self. An ENFP, however, will start from the world, shifting perspectives in the current situation with no purpose in mind. When an ENFP must anticipate, they'll resort to Si, by checking what has happened before. The combo Ne-Fi will act in possibilities of exploring personal values in real time.

I guess that that's why I often hear ENFPs talking in terms of discussing with people what makes them feel the way they feel, and offering insight as they talk. INFJs on other hand, often display sympathy, while considering some insight.

The difference lies in the nature of the functions. Note how the ENFP is using their perceptions to aid others, while considering everything in terms of themselves, while the INFJ is using its values to aid others , while using their perceptions for themselves.

Fe is a directive function. It's used to control and direct (duh) situations according to their perceptions. Ne is an adaptative function, and it's used to adapt their judgements according to situation.
 

BigApplePi

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INTPs with simulated INFJ?

I am just going to set this down right here.

Hit us up when you are ready to put this dilemma behind you.
Adymus. I want to run this by you as you have that facility with personality theory.

I would like to ask that if you and I are alike in these two ways:

1. We are both INTP.
2. We are both interested in a special topic, you Pod'liar or maybe here, and myself here.

whether or not we exhibit symptoms concerning these interests that simulate or appear to be the Ni Fe Ti Se of INFJ?

1. Ni - a broad/many viewed internal intuition about the nature of those topics for the general public with
2. Fe - a certain willingness, even enthusiasm to talk about them socially and objectively.
3. Ti - A tendency not to want to think/try too hard on how to effectively get these topics across as well as
4. Se - tending to seek or put up with a variety of concrete examples that illustrate the thesis.

Now if they are true, that is, that they are INFJ simulations/appearances, would it be the case we remain INTP because:
Displaying an interest in those topics for others is quite different than the internal belief in the topics themselves.

In displaying, are these true?

1. The Ni is really Ti-Si
2. The Se is really Ne-Fe
3. The Fe is Fe for that special area and is modestly depleting
4. The Ti is Ti for that special area and is energizing

A simpler way of saying this is, are these two people INTPs exhibiting pseudo-INFJ behavior?
 

Adymus

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When an ENFP must anticipate, they'll resort to Si, by checking what has happened before. The combo Ne-Fi will act in possibilities of exploring personal values in real time.
You have to right idea, but just to clarify:

Ne-Fi is the exploration of abstract patterns and possibilities in real-time (hence it is adaptive/Non-structured nature), and using Fi personal values to resonate with the patterns as a means of sifting or guiding through them, like a rudder.

Again, I'm not correcting you, just making the clarification because wording it "possibilities of exploring personal values" kind of sounds like Fi-Ne.
 

Adymus

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Re: INTPs with simulated INFJ?

Adymus. I want to run this by you as you have that facility with personality theory.

I would like to ask that if you and I are alike in these two ways:

1. We are both INTP.
2. We are both interested in a special topic, you Pod'liar or maybe here, and myself here.

whether or not we exhibit symptoms concerning these interests that simulate or appear to be the Ni Fe Ti Se of INFJ?

1. Ni - a broad/many viewed internal intuition about the nature of those topics for the general public with
2. Fe - a certain willingness, even enthusiasm to talk about them socially and objectively.
3. Ti - A tendency not to want to think/try too hard on how to effectively get these topics across as well as
4. Se - tending to seek or put up with a variety of concrete examples that illustrate the thesis.

Now if they are true, that is, that they are INFJ simulations/appearances, would it be the case we remain INTP because:
Displaying an interest in those topics for others is quite different than the internal belief in the topics themselves.

In displaying, are these true?

1. The Ni is really Ti-Si
2. The Se is really Ne-Fe
3. The Fe is Fe for that special area and is modestly depleting
4. The Ti is Ti for that special area and is energizing

A simpler way of saying this is, are these two people INTPs exhibiting pseudo-INFJ behavior?
Okay Pi, the simple and most precise answer is that none of what you described could actually be considered exclusively INFJ behavior. In fact you are going to see that kind of behavior in... pretty much every intuitive type there is.

1. Ni - a broad/many viewed internal intuition about the nature of those topics for the general public with
Being interested in many topics does not necessarily mean you use Ni.
2. Fe - a certain willingness, even enthusiasm to talk about them socially and objectively.
Being enthusiastic about talking about stuff does not necessarily mean you use Fe
3. Ti - A tendency not to want to think/try too hard on how to effectively get these topics across as well as
Thinking hard about how to get topics across does not necessarily mean you use Ti
4. Se - tending to seek or put up with a variety of concrete examples that illustrate the thesis.
Seeking to put up concrete examples does not necessarily mean you use Se


I have no idea where you got these assumptions from, Pi, but that certainly did not come from me.
 

EvilScientist Trainee

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You have to right idea, but just to clarify:

Ne-Fi is the exploration of abstract patterns and possibilities in real-time (hence it is adaptive/Non-structured nature), and using Fi personal values to resonate with the patterns as a means of sifting or guiding through them, like a rudder.

Again, I'm not correcting you, just making the clarification because wording it "possibilities of exploring personal values" kind of sounds like Fi-Ne.

No problem, clarifications are always well-received. Also, it's good to know I'm getting a grasp at this.

Edit: Also, on Ni/Ne. I guess I could say it's somewhat accurate to say that Ni is changing the meaning of the concept , while Ne is changing what makes the concept. That's because Ni will work with Se, they will start from what is concretely perceived in the world to the meaning of the symbol. On the other hand, Ne will work with Si, that starts from the concrete meaning of the object and goes for possibilities in the world.
 

soraya

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1. Why is there a discussion about government happening on this thread? It's out of place and therefore seems kinda disrespectful to the op's obvious struggle that he or she is trying to find answers to.

2. From a fellow Ni dom, I think you're INFJ. Even the way you refute arguments that you are INFJ is very Ni. You're constantly trying to shift the perspective. You're wanting to see things from every angle so that you can narrow down your possibilities and hopefully settle on the correct one. That's what I do except I use Te, instead of Fe to put my Ni in context.

3. There is an enormous difference between INTP Fe and INFJ Fe. My two best friends are an INTP and an INFJ. Functions don't stand in isolation. INFJ processes Fe through their Ni. INTP processes Fe through Ti, then Ne, then Si. Of course INTP expresses Fe. INTPs can even express a lot of Fe, but that doesn't mean it's expressed well or well developed. My INFJ's Fe is super 'global' she is very aware of her feelings, others' feelings, and the way these feelings affect everyone around. Most of all, she actually acts on that in a healthy way. And, it isn't filtered by a bunch of other functions. My INTP's Fe is really limited compared to that. Of course it's there, but although it can sometimes recognize other people's emotions, it usually doesn't realize the web of connections between people or the way that emotions affect everyone. Also, there isn't much security or confidence in this function. So, a lot of times he really interacts with people and thinks he establishes connections and it's great. But, the vast majority of the time, those people come away with the impression that he only understood their emotions on an intellectual level and was unable to empathize or understand on the level of the INFJ. They think he's really selfish because he's unable to actually implement emotional knowledge the way my INFJ can. Of course, because his Fe sucks, he's unable to see the actual effect of it.

I mean, I've had to use my Se a lot because you have to use all your functions in order to have success, but I would never claim that it's developed on the level of an Se dom or secondary. It's there, I obviously express it, but I know it sucks. If it didn't suck I probably wouldn't fall down stairs as often as I do.

Also, to a great extent, you can't just peg behaviors as being specific to a function. I know an ISFJ who thinks she has amazing Ne. She doesn't. Her Ne sucks. What's happening is that her Si is recalling past experiences and she then uses her Fe to put these into the context of people and relationships. This allows her to 'predict' a person's behavior. So, a lot of times she's coming to the same conclusion as an Ne user, but doing it in a completely different way. However, she doesn't understand the functions at all so she thinks she's being Ne.

Basically, many different functions can lead us to the same conclusions. The conclusions don't determine your MBTI. It's how you get there. So, how does your Fe function? There's a huge difference between a secondary Fe and an inferior Fe. Be introspective, look at your behavior, try to figure out if you've got Ni...good luck and good hunting
 

BigApplePi

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Re: INTPs with simulated INFJ?

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Adymus. I want to run this by you as you have that facility with personality theory.

I would like to ask that if you and I are alike in these two ways:

1. We are both INTP.
2. We are both interested in a special topic, you Pod'liar or maybe here, and myself here.

whether or not we exhibit symptoms concerning these interests that simulate or appear to be the Ni Fe Ti Se of INFJ?

1. Ni - a broad/many viewed internal intuition about the nature of those topics for the general public with
2. Fe - a certain willingness, even enthusiasm to talk about them socially and objectively.
3. Ti - A tendency not to want to think/try too hard on how to effectively get these topics across as well as
4. Se - tending to seek or put up with a variety of concrete examples that illustrate the thesis.

Now if they are true, that is, that they are INFJ simulations/appearances, would it be the case we remain INTP because:
Displaying an interest in those topics for others is quite different than the internal belief in the topics themselves.

In displaying, are these true?

1. The Ni is really Ti-Si
2. The Se is really Ne-Fe
3. The Fe is Fe for that special area and is modestly depleting
4. The Ti is Ti for that special area and is energizing

A simpler way of saying this is, are these two people INTPs exhibiting pseudo-INFJ behavior?
Okay Pi, the simple and most precise answer is that none of what you described could actually be considered exclusively INFJ behavior. In fact you are going to see that kind of behavior in... pretty much every intuitive type there is.

Fair enough.

I am not getting a point across. My concern is that an INTP may be mistaken for an INFJ under certain circumstances. Is this true? It is not uncommon to make the wrong classification of oneself and others. I am looking for clarification and rectification. What about this?

1. The Ni appearance is really Ti-Si
2. The Se appearance is really Ne-Fe
3. The Fe is Fe for that special area and is modestly depleting
4. The Ti is Ti for that special area and is energizing
 

Jennywocky

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As a person who has dealt with a LOT of INFJs (specifically ones who thought they were INTPs) on this forum (And in general), I can tell you that you are making some very risky assumptions here.

Same here, dude. If you want to start laying claim to "experience" and how you seemingly have had more than me, well, I've been active on a number of MBTI forums for the last five years and have moderated one for close to four, and probably have somewhere with the range of 30-35K posts on MBTI forums, at least half about MBTI issues. I'm not saying what I am saying without having at least as much or likely more experience than the majority of people on these forums. I also have quite a number of INFJ friends, some of whom have wondered if they were INTPs, and happen to have very strong Ti tertiaries.

But I never really liked the "typing" threads, whether it's for particular members or celebrities. It's a lot like people cherry-picking certain details out of the haystack to support their predetermined view of someone... and it also ignores the fact that MBTI is a theoretical system that is being applied to the data rather than completely generated from the data, so people won't necessarily fit within the rules.

For one, INFJs don't always know their answer, they are human too, they also need time to take in information and let their Ni get the lay of the land. Ni is actually the slowest function when it comes to building an understanding, it needs to wait and take in a lot of information before it can freely move through it all. In that period of waiting, you are going to see a lot of Ti based questions, because their Ni is being built with a lot of Ti-Se components, that their Ni-Fe is going to Synthesize into something more.
That's not actually what a majority of INJ's have told me, albeit some of them being INTJs. I specifically have had some very intelligent INJs describe their view of Ne vs Ni, and correct me on the matter in the areas where they felt I was off. The most typical description I have received from INJs is that Ni is a "connect the dots" picture, where you look at the data in front of you and you automatically see the rest without having to connect the dots. It's a way of seeing, not of rationalizing... otherwise it would be a judgment function.

What you describe is an INJ without much Ni, and lots of Ti -- you're determining what data should be where using a Ti process.

I will consider the possibility that your total picture of things might change with the more data you get.. but now you are specifically describing a Ti+Ne process! That's exactly what ITPs do, in order to develop the big picture... collect lots of points of data and rationalize through the connections to see what we get.

When you see an INFJ articulating their Ni while Ti calibrates it, then you are right, Ti is supportive, but that is not always obvious in text. INFJs are also not always going to be pure on target, they often go on tangents too (some much more than others), which can look like Ne, even though it isn't.
Actually, N is "fuzzy" whether it's Ne or Ni. So I think INFJs can describe the big picture and be off on the details. That seems to align with what you are saying.

There are many many many different models of INFJ, many of which kind of look like how some of the other types (Like INTPs and ENTPs for instance) are "Supposed" to look.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. Each type has a number of "typical patterns" that tend to describe them. There could also be more unique blends/cases that don't typically show up, but it doesn't mean that one cannot probably look at each type and note 3-5 "typical configurations" or patterns that occur within that functional framework.

Drawing boundaries like you are doing, "this type acts this way", "and that type acts that way", almost always sets you up for misreading people.
Please. This is YOUR overemphasis of detail that is attributing ideas to me that I do not actually hold. You are misreading me.

Go to my prior paragraph -- there DOES tend to be a "few basic configurations" within each MBTI type that are represented ... but you still have to look at the unique person. I'm an INTP with atypically high Ni. You are preaching to the choir and trying to read me as some sort of exacting SJ type here, which I'm not. I am not talking about using particular details as "clear-cut" identifiers of type, a procedure I find faulty. Sorry if I somehow misstated myself, I'm just kind of surprised by your read of me.

And trying to read a person via text is probably the worse way you could possibly do it. There is always something you are not seeing, text is only the end result of what people are doing cognitively behind the screen (hence people once thinking I am an xNTJ or sorts, all they see is me pushing information, they don't see that My Ti is being impinged first, which makes me want to come out and correct them.)

Again, please. I totally agree with you, which is why I hate typing online.
You need to see someone IRL to have the best possible shot at grasping them.

I'm telling you this because I have made many of the erroneous assumptions you are making in the past, and it has nearly always screwed me over in the end.

Thank you for the advice. However, I'm already well aware of the typical flaws in rationality and especially within MBTI typing, and I'm still saying that types usually express themselves within a few particular instinctive patterns. (Do you understand what I mean by this? It means it's not concrete data points that automatically expose a type, it's the relationships between the typical data points of a person -- the principles of their behavior, the broad patterns, and how they relate.)

These patterns still have to be examined and confirmed just to make sure the pattern is not being misread, but it's not a lot different than when the police cycle through those mugshots and certain faces can be categorized as having similar (even if not exact) relationships between the designated points of the face used for identification. If we would be unable to do this with MBTI, then it's almost a waste to even bother with the system; these systems basically describe patterns that we see which one we most align with.

I hope that explains my thinking/approach far better than my shorter post did earlier.
 

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One: Alas, I have more experience! I'm more aware than most. How shan't you condemn my wisdom.

Two: Alas, I am younger and have new experience! I have new awareness over oldst. How shan't you condemn my age.

One,Two: What will you believe, Three?!

Three: I do believe...I need...another round...of the pint!

~The Circle of Life~ ~And it moves us all~ ... ~The Circle of Life~
 

Bird

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I think the best way to determine
would be to decide whether or not
you're Ti or Ni dom.



I'm sure this has previously been
suggested. I didn't read the entire
thread as I'm discriminatory.
 

SpaceYeti

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1. Why is there a discussion about government happening on this thread? It's out of place and therefore seems kinda disrespectful to the op's obvious struggle that he or she is trying to find answers to.
It followed a natural progression from the original topic. It's as disrespectful as any other time a conversation takes an unforeseen turn, which is just about every conversation I've ever had of any substantial length. I do not take offense when a thread I start takes such a turn, and I had no reason to presume the OP would be at all slighted. This is, after all, a public forum.
 

soraya

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The mind...
For one, INFJs don't always know their answer, they are human too, they also need time to take in information and let their Ni get the lay of the land. Ni is actually the slowest function when it comes to building an understanding, it needs to wait and take in a lot of information before it can freely move through it all. In that period of waiting, you are going to see a lot of Ti based questions, because their Ni is being built with a lot of Ti-Se components, that their Ni-Fe is going to Synthesize into something more.

That's actually dead on. Ni is incredibly frustratingly slow and requires an ENORMOUS amount of info. Ni is like an iceberg, 95% of it is below the water/consciousness. You hardly ever see it. You can't function purely on 5% consciousness which is why your other functions are always operating and poking you with questions, constantly ordering and sifting through Ni data. It's not that there's not much Ni there, it's that you don't see it. I don't see anywhere in there where Adymus implied that it is a judgment function. It seems to me like everything in that paragraph said that it is indeed a way of seeing.

but now you are specifically describing a Ti+Ne process! That's exactly what ITPs do, in order to develop the big picture... collect lots of points of data and rationalize through the connections to see what we get.

No he's not. This is exactly what I said before. It's not like only INTPs collect lots of points of data and rationalize through the connections to see what they get. This behavior is not specific to a type or a particular set of functions. There's no monopoly on that behavior. It's the way that you do this (the functions you use) that determines your type. Of course INTPs, INTJs, INFJs, many types do this but we use different methods to do the same thing, different ways of collecting data and reasoning (not rationalizing) through it.

It followed a natural progression from the original topic. It's as disrespectful as any other time a conversation takes an unforeseen turn, which is just about every conversation I've ever had of any substantial length. I do not take offense when a thread I start takes such a turn, and I had no reason to presume the OP would be at all slighted. This is, after all, a public forum.

I believe ApplePi mentioned the issue in specific relation to the subject at hand, from which, it was shortly transformed into a personal issue. If you will, note that nowhere did I imply it was an unintelligent comment about government, that this was a private forum, or that conversations shouldn't take turns. Many off topic comments can bring insight to the situation. I simply took issue with the fact that it seemed like a personal issue was being brought into a public conversation without being related relevantly to the topic at hand. In other words, took the focus off the op's issue and placed it on someone else, detracting from the conversation. But again, this is detracting from the issue.

Warryer: Bird is right. Try to figure out if you are Ni or Ti dom. Maybe, id you haven't already, check out the INFJ forum to see if they seem to think more like you. My INFJ friend is pretty good at Ti but she does get kinda exhausted from using it. She also only uses it on the terms of her Fe. So, if she thinks that something is disrupting social, relational, or emotional harmony then she will take an interest in logically reasoning through it and dissecting it. She never takes an interest in doing that kind of thing without first considering the way something impacts relationships. Hope that makes sense and helps you out. I can ask her some questions about being INFJ if you'd like.
 

Artsu Tharaz

The Lamb
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I think the best way to determine
would be to decide whether or not
you're Ti or Ni dom.

Knowing which one you are can be difficult.
 
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