INTP values?

[Reluctantly]

Do you have values?

 

[Grayman]

When it suits me..

 

[Tannhauser]

Yes, but I'm not sure what they are.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I do, though I'm no INTP (neither is OP)

This doesn't mean I never lost track of them or became something I didn't like. What are you contemplating?

 

[Reluctantly]

I do, though I'm no INTP (neither is OP)

This doesn't mean I never lost track of them or became something I didn't like. What are you contemplating?

juss wonderin. Some stuff happened at work and it was recommended that I go to anger management (lol) and they were talking about values. And basically, as cheesy as this sounds, I learned that I get angry when people can't respect one another (or me) on some level. Out of all the stupid over-thinking I've done in my life, I'm surprised I never realized how important that is to me. I can't really get along with people unless there is some basic kind of respect, even if it's just an understanding that we hate each other. Like a baseline of understanding and accepting each other, I guess I could say.

So I was just wondering what people here value....anyway.

When it suits me..

I see.

Yes, but I'm not sure what they are.

huh,
*pokes you with stick*
*Tannhauser jiggles*

humph.

 

[Architect]

I have my own peculiar set of values, and interestingly I have to say them a more moral person in a way than a devout Mormon friend of mine. Basically all of my morals are based on The Golden Rule. So for example, my friend recommended that I lie about my street address so that my kid would get into a particular charter school, which I refused to do because that would unfairly diminish the chances of other parents.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I actually have that same value...

Eh, if you don't have a choice, anger management might be helpful. Probably not at work at all, but maybe in other areas of life.

If someone doesn't respect you and holds that view without reason, that's their folly, isn't it? You can prove them wrong. It's more difficult managing dysfunctional team members.

 

[Grayman]

Empathy and consideration. I think taking the time to understand each other is what has the greatest potential for good.

People are very oblivious and are largely unaware how their actions effect other people. I find such lack of consideration very irritating. Unfortunately we are not omniscient and consequently I have to understanding of their limitations.

 

[Sinny91]

I have my own peculiar set of values, and interestingly I have to say them a more moral person in a way than a devout Mormon friend of mine. Basically all of my morals are based on The Golden Rule. So for example, my friend recommended that I lie about my street address so that my kid would get into a particular charter school, which I refused to do because that would unfairly diminish the chances of other parents.

See, I'd have no problems lying about that.

I value honesty, integrity, loyalty, strength, compassion and endurance.

 

[Grayman]

See, I'd have no problems lying about that.

I value honesty, integrity, loyalty, strength, compassion and endurance.

Your first statement doesn't fit your second. ...

 

[Analyzer]

Freedom. It's the value which allows all other values to flourish.

 

[Sinny91]

Your first statement doesn't fit your second. ...

It does if you know the details.

I value honesty on a personal level... But I'd have no problem lying to an institution or organisation, as it's not a being but an entity. If that makes sense?

On a personal level, I might tell white lies if it suits my needs, or to spare peoples feelings.. but if someone were to suspect my lie and ask me if I've lied, 9 times out of ten I'll own up.. but 9/10 they'll get a truth they'd rather not know.

 

[Grayman]

It does if you know the details.

Yes. To top it off, Most people are willing to lie when they feel the system or person is dishonest, corrupt, or unfair. I dont know if you feel the same.

Personally I think basing who gets in on an address is silly. It should be based on which kids would make the fullest use of their resources to become an more intelligent student. I would lie if I believed my child would do just that.

 

[Architect]

It does if you know the details.

I value honesty on a personal level... But I'd have no problem lying to an institution or organisation

institutions/organizations aren't abstractions, when you cheat them you are cheating people. In this case if I lied it wouldn't matter to the school, I would be cheating all the other families in the lottery to get into the school (having the right address increased your odds).

Cheat a company and you're cheating the people who work for it (company makes less the workers make less), the owners/shareholders* (lost revenue) and the other customers of the company (less revenue to support new products/development.

If these seem artificial examples then you're making the fallacy of composition; what's good for an individual isn't good for a group. Meaning; one person can steal candy from the candy store and it won't have much effect. But if everybody does it the store goes out of business. Doing so is then just selfish narcissism.

It's like saying "It's not stealing if nobody notices", or "It's not stealing if it doesn't (really) hurt anybody" Nope, your still a horrible, cheating person no matter how small the consequence. The idea of personal honesty as being different from personal integrity (in all transactions) is morally bankrupt.

* and don't try the "oh stockholders are all rich people who don't matter" bullshit. Majority ownership in the stock market is pension funds. You know - your parents, their friends, all those folks who worked hard their entire lives to have some money for their old age. Where do you think that money went, the mattress?

NOTE: On re-reading your post you specifically said "lying" which I conflated here with "stealing". I don't see much difference, but others might.

Also I'm not attacking you personally, but obviously have strong feelings about the idea that there's a difference between lying (or cheating, or stealing) from a group of people, versus an individual.

 

[Grayman]

@Archie

You obviously think everyone else is more important than your son. You dont make any sense to me. The system doesn't serve the hard working. The fact that your son isn't getting in only shows how it serves those who are willing to lie.

 

[Praetorian]

Elegance and clarity in speech and writing.

That's about as much as I've been able to put together. After another 20 years, I might be able to think of something else.

 

[Ponderer]

I value logic, knowledge and truth. That's it.

 

[Architect]

@Archie You obviously think everyone else is more important than your son.

So I should teach him to lie and cheat to get ahead?

The system doesn't serve the hard working.

News to me, every example I see of somebody who got ahead worked for it. Some cheated along the way, others didn't, and a few had opportunities handed to them.

The fact that your son isn't getting in only shows how it serves those who are willing to lie.

It was a random lottery with preference going to geographic location. Oddly enough not long after we bought a house that would have guaranteed getting in. But guess what? After seeing his friends who did get in we realized that not going was the best thing to have happened. It was 5-6th grade charter school, but he was on the same campus for the 7-8 grade public school part of it, and it was all new and exciting, and he had the best two years of his schooling there. He finally got into a group of really great friends who really bonded together. If he had been in the charter school it would have been boring and downhill by 7-8 since he wouldn't have come in fresh. And now he sailed into High School this year on a solid basis, practically a miracle for an INTP.

Which demonstrates the point, people usually cheat for something they don't really need and so are just fucking things up most of the time, in my experience. Cheating is a self-destructive behavior that also happens to hurt others, win-win.

 

[Nofriends]

i study Machiavellianism and plan to be the most deceptive and cunning piece of shit to walk the earth

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

i study Machiavellianism and plan to be the most deceptive and cunning piece of shit to walk the earth

Hold your horses (for congress) Caligula, you've got some stiff competition.

 

[Grayman]

So I should teach him to lie and cheat to get ahead?

You don't need to teach him anything. Why does he even need to know?


Well you are a true rarity Archie. A real decent person.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...hip/201206/why-so-many-us-lie-cheat-and-steal

In Ariely’s studies, research participants are presented with several matrices of math problems to solve, and told to tally the number of correct answers. They then put the test in a shredder (actually the tests are not shredded), and they are asked to report the number of correct answers, receiving a cash award for each correctly solved matrix. Ariely’s results show that most people cheat a little bit – overreporting slightly the number of matrices they solved correctly. A few people grossly cheat, and only a few people are completely honest.

Ariely’s research goes on to show that the incidence of cheating is not greatly affected by the chances of getting caught, but cheating increases if another participant is seen blatantly cheating – a modeling effect. Contrary to traditional economic models, cheating was unaffected by the size of the monetary award. In fact, when pay for each correct matrix was raised from 50 cents to $10, cheating actually declined! So, people will cheat a little, but not a lot (think of income tax fudging – most only do it a little).

Most people are a little dishonest but you seem to be better than most.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/employee-theft-are-you-blind-to-it/

A typical organization loses 5% of its annual revenue to employee fraud. Applied to the estimated 2009 Gross World Product, this figure translates to a potential global fraud loss of more than $2.9 trillion.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

i study Machiavellianism and plan to be the most deceptive and cunning piece of shit to walk the earth

no no you don't tell people like that!

hide the evidence, like a tr00 makkervellen, yo

oh and re: thead to thread link, i aint talkin bout INTPs, nah

i'm talking bout

.....theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeem

 

[Yellow]

I have values, but not really.

 

[Nitroshogun]

The way I understand it (and experience it) it's kind of all or nothing for intps. Since (from what i've seen) functions roughly come in as we age and develop our brains some people may be younger or mentally immature or never develop their lower functions and cut them off and be more "ruthless" or have it as an achilles heel and people touch it like a sore spot. Or someone may put more time into their lower feeling functions whether by choice/chance and be more compassionate.

 

[Reluctantly]

I have my own peculiar set of values, and interestingly I have to say them a more moral person in a way than a devout Mormon friend of mine. Basically all of my morals are based on The Golden Rule. So for example, my friend recommended that I lie about my street address so that my kid would get into a particular charter school, which I refused to do because that would unfairly diminish the chances of other parents.

I guess my thinking about something like that is a little different. I'd look at it thinking they are pompous for only wanting certain streets, instead of quality students that seek a quality education. So I'd not bother lying, but if it was say a government mandated rule and it was a choice between a very bad school and that one, I'd definitely lie with no regrets or feelings of being immoral, even if caught. At least if the kid wanted it; but if not, I'd just encourage them to learn on their own.

If someone doesn't respect you and holds that view without reason, that's their folly, isn't it? You can prove them wrong. It's more difficult managing dysfunctional team members.

Well yeah...but just never join the military. Once you are in, they think they can humiliate you as long as it's not considered "immoral" or "unlawful". Without going into details, the only reason I'm not in trouble right now is because I played politics and it became a "we all get in trouble or none of us do" kind of thing. But I'm happy because now I'm getting kicked out with either a positive or neutral discharge. I'm still kind of surprised that all worked out. But I'm not exactly the explosive kind of anger, more the defensive. I'll be angry, but still playing my moves over in my head, even though I'm much more emotional because of it.

 

[Reluctantly]

I have values, but not really.

What, like, you get mad if your coffee from Starbucks is too hot or cold or something? But not enough to do anything about it?

 

[nanook]

i like to think there is a holy reason for why i hate the whole world. it's obviously rubbing me the wrong way, but that could all be my fault. if i were 100% faulty. obviously i don't like that thought. so i have to come up with some stories or observations about how this or that isn't just bad for me but bad for most of everyone, even if they are too dense to know it, too numb to feel it, too broken to understand it, too brainwashed to believe it or too fucking lucky to be actually affected by it - yet. however i don't think that i can change the world for a second, because the world is made out of people and i can't change people. so how i deal with being rubbed the wrong way is my own problem. of course i avoid the world as much as possible, but i don't believe in the power of boycott because my sensitivities are clearly not a coming trend. i think i can sometimes affect another person just a little bit, so i may try to make them comfortable, if they suffer from the same strokes, by validating their experience or sharing how i cope with it, if i know a trick. if they suffer from different strokes, it's probably best to just leave them alone. i try to avoid rubbing people in wrong ways but sometimes it's too tempting to rub them a little and i rarely do it right.

so i am not exactly a big moralist.

but i'm an idealist. to me that word refers to an understanding of ideals, not of values. to me an ideal is mostly a functional state. it could be ideas about health. like a naturalism of sorts.

to intuition a process appears ideal and then the condition of the underlying organ is also appreciated. to sensation, conditions can appear directly as aesthetic ideals.

if i were to discuss my ideals, i'd mention what i know about how the whole world works, the conditions of it's organs and how it affects the world of process. integral theory, psychology, physiology.

the ideal of highest concern is of course (?) the human subject. i mean it could be your computer. but to me it isn't. hence my idealism challenges me to be "human". seen through integral intuition, the human subject is recognized as evolving, so it's not a rigid ideal at all.

i leave it up to you to figure out if i am intp. in my model all of this reasoning implies infp, so sorry for posting in this thread ... it's an interesting challenge to put this into words.

 

[Ex-User (13503)]

I'm guessing that INTP values are rooted in theory () and inferior Fe, which means they don't know they exist until they appear in response to some stimuli, and even then they don't know what to call them.

My own values are probably summed up as "Don't hurt my people" which applies to insiders and outsiders alike. It's basically a different take on freedom/agency as a value, it's just that I defend the agency of the group as that of my own, and group members may be included based on ideology alone and not even know they're in the group.

IWell yeah...but just never join the military. Once you are in, they think they can humiliate you as long as it's not considered "immoral" or "unlawful". Without going into details, the only reason I'm not in trouble right now is because I played politics and it became a "we all get in trouble or none of us do" kind of thing. But I'm happy because now I'm getting kicked out with either a positive or neutral discharge. I'm still kind of surprised that all worked out. But I'm not exactly the explosive kind of anger, more the defensive. I'll be angry, but still playing my moves over in my head, even though I'm much more emotional because of it.

They wouldn't take me if I tried to join.

Any plans for what to do afterward? I know of someone who initially wanted to move into supply chain management but wound up going to law school instead. And I definitely have the same thought process.

 

[Reluctantly]

Any plans for what to do afterward? I know of someone who initially wanted to move into supply chain management but wound up going to law school instead. And I definitely have the same thought process.

I'm going to go home and see my mom for a bit. Then I will disappear for a while. I think I'll just go camping out west somewhere. Just want to get away from literally everyone.

When I feel like coming back, I'll have to decide between going to school for biomedical engineering (only if I can get an internship in the process) or looking for a job as an electrician apprentice or electrical engineering internship somewhere. In the mean time I can work doing either websites, fixing cars (for someone else or on my own, doesn't matter), or try and find a job fixing radars (even though I don't do my job in the Army, an employer doesn't know that). And at some point I'll have to deal with my gender issues. basically,

I think I'd rather be an electrician though to be honest. I don't want to go back to school; I hate school. Even though I have a degree, I don't have experience with electrical engineering and I don't think anyone will want me to work for them; I'd have to work for free and there's no guarantee I will be good at it. I hate fixing radars. It's really uninteresting. At least with being an electrician I can work with my hands, get out from behind a desk, and produce something that people actually appreciate. Plus they move around a lot, not always working the same job. And it would be nice to start to learn a useful skill like that. Plus working on cars can get frustrating and even though I've done websites, I'm not really a 'web designer', more of a "you design it; I'll code it". Most companies want both.

 

[Procinogen]

I really value intelligence, and usually will think it through, then devise a plan when faced with a problem. To me, intelligence is stronger than, well, strength. Another thing I really value is logic. I refuse to let my emotions blind my logical reasoning. Whatever is the most logical solution, I would go for it. Personally, emotions are one of the last things on my list of priorities. Next to that I really value honesty, as well. But not as much as intelligence and logic.

 

[Yellow]

What, like, you get mad if your coffee from Starbucks is too hot or cold or something? But not enough to do anything about it?

Is Starbucks still a thing? I don't think I've seen one in forever.

Anyway, I mean my values are personal, and often transitory. Some of my values are for sale, some are only pretense, and some I can rationalize away on a moment's notice. There are a few I actually try to hold onto regardless of the situation because they're my default setting, but if I'm being honest with myself, I can't think of any that I'd hold onto for their own sake if it inconvenienced me. At least not externally.

As an example, do you remember that Star Trek episode when Picard was captured by the Cardassians and tortured? All the Cardassian wanted him to do was say "I see five lights" when there were only four. I wouldn't have even tried to hold out. Is that it? Fuck yeah, I see five lights! I don't give a fuck, you weird-ass dinosaur-looking fucker.