INTP to INTP Relationships

[PhoenixRising]

I have had a lifelong curiosity about what makes different people compatible or incompatible and have done a lot of people watching and studying of my own relationships to try and figure it all out. I believe that the degree of compatibility between two people is dependent at least in part on their MBTI types (I know, duh). It is interesting to observe the behavior of different types when they interact with someone of the same type, or another compatible type. For instance, when two or more people of the same type interact, they reinforce and amplify their natural tendencies. This is the sort of thing that happens in any social group, but it is far more pronounced when observing people who are all the exact same MBTI type.

Due to the rarity of INTPs in the human population, I haven't had much chance to study compatibility between members of my own type. I'm hoping that some of you who are INTP will share your experiences interacting with other INTPs. Especially interesting would be family interaction, romantic relationships, or close friendships.

Don't be shy! Mention as much detail as you can. You can start with these questions:

1. What is your relationship with the other INTP(s) you are writing about?

2. How quickly did you get to know each other? Was your connection instant or did it take time to develop?

3. How well do you get along with them? If you do have disagreements, how do you go about resolving them?

4. Do you feel more or less comfortable with them than other people?

5. Do you have some of the same interests? If so, do you spend time together pursuing these interests?

6. Is it easier to communicate with them than with other people?

7. Do you seem to have a "telepathic" communication with them? Such as, you know what they mean without having to speak, or you know if something has happened to them even from far away?

8. Do you consider them a "kindred spirit" or "soul mate"?

9. Do you find that you love them more or are closer to them than other people?

 

[Architect]

1. What is your relationship with the other INTP(s) you are writing about?

Three of them, as one is a lesbian friend, the other is a male friend at work and one is my son (kind of a different relationship there)

2. How quickly did you get to know each other? Was your connection instant or did it take time to develop?

It took time in both cases, with the work friend we just slowly discovered each other. With my kid it's the usual Dad-son kind of thing.

3. How well do you get along with them? If you do have disagreements, how do you go about resolving them?

Not a lot of disagreements, or none at all. I got mad at my kid once because he didn't like going anywhere and would sulk when we went for a hike once. He was devastated that I got mad at him, so I try to be careful with that.

4. Do you feel more or less comfortable with them than other people?

More, sometimes. I feel super comfortable with an XSFP friend of mine.

5. Do you have some of the same interests? If so, do you spend time together pursuing these interests?

Yes, yes. My son and I pal around all the time of course. With the other friends it's hard to get together. You know how it is with INTPs, hard to pin down to extracurricular activities because they don't want to make commitments on their time after work.

6. Is it easier to communicate with them than with other people?

Yes, not a lot of explaining needed usually.

7. Do you seem to have a "telepathic" communication with them? Such as, you know what they mean without having to speak, or you know if something has happened to them even from far away?

Yes in a "subspace carrier frequency" kind of way, however the telepathic communication is stronger with my INFJ wife. "Pipelining" we call it, we know what the other is thinking most of the time.

8. Do you consider them a "kindred spirit" or "soul mate"?

Yes, however Mrs INFJ is more of a kindred spirit/soul mate, because she is both close yet differentiated from me.

9. Do you find that you love them more or are closer to them than other people?

They're definitely in the small camp of people I feel close to. I get more of a bang out of INFJ's though in a way. Close, but not too close. Being with INTP's it's almost like being with a clone (certainly so in the case of my son!) With one of them their thinking is almost too loud, hard for me to hear myself.

So I guess I have all three of your relationship types. In a romantic partner I don't think an INTP would work out for me. More like a cloned sister than a lover. Would be interesting but not enough spark - my INFJ is an eternal mystery to me which makes it exciting. For day to day friends INTPs are perfect. You like to do the same things, talk about the same things ... much easier then my Sensor friends. Ideally I'd have a few non INTP friends though too, just for the differentiation and interest.

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Architect, thank you for taking the time to describe your INTP relationships and compare them briefly with other types as well. I found your answer about "subspace carrier frequency" communication particularly interesting. I have been debating with myself whether that type of communication is based on closeness or specifically on psychological compatibility. Your answer would seem to indicate that closeness is more of a factor than specific MBTI type. I also am pretty sure that intuition plays a role in subliminal communication, so the fact that both you and your wife are predominantly intuitive makes sense.

I also agree with your analysis of romantic relationships, it seems that those without intellectual disagreement fall flat. Conflict encourages growth after all. However, I probably wouldn't be able to turn down the opportunity if I had the chance to date an INTP. Wouldn't that be the ultimate way of learning about yourself from the outside?

 

[Architect]

I found your answer about "subspace carrier frequency" communication particularly interesting. I have been debating with myself whether that type of communication is based on closeness or specifically on psychological compatibility.Your answer would seem to indicate that closeness is more of a factor than specific MBTI type.

No actually I think it's due more to MBTI. With other INTP's that I know, I know what they're probably thinking and likely to say, I've noticed. I'm not sure there really is any communication going on, but rather they're so compatible and similar you know what is going on over there. This is especially true with my work friend (another engineer) and son whom I've known his entire life.

The mind-mate/soul mate communication with the INFJ is exactly that. I think it's due to to INFJ's actually having mind reading abilities, and complementary compatibility instead of the a-priori compatibility with INTPs.

I also am pretty sure that intuition plays a role in subliminal communication, so the fact that both you and your wife are predominantly intuitive makes sense.

Perhaps that has some play too.

I also agree with your analysis of romantic relationships, it seems that those without intellectual disagreement fall flat. Conflict encourages growth after all.

Hmmm, yes but it's more than intellectual disagreement. We actually have little of that. More the complementary compatibility I mentioned. She has Ti in the tertiary and loves hearing me pontificate my theories. I also reassure her that the world isn't as bad as it might seem to an Ni/Fe. On my side, her Fe draws out my inferior Fe, a good thing for an INTP. Plus we're good in bed, yeah!

However, I probably wouldn't be able to turn down the opportunity if I had the chance to date an INTP. Wouldn't that be the ultimate way of learning about yourself from the outside?

Actually the ultimate way - I think - is to have an INTP kid. Not saying that because I happened to, but its been my observation. My kid has taught me more about 'being an INTP' than anything else, if that makes sense.

For example, taking a page from another thread here, he hated sports. I had parental programming (you discover this when you become one) that said "thou should have kids in sports". Not conscious, but it's programming you pick up that is buried very deep. Anyhow, seeing his reaction made me question, is it really natural that kids run around all the time? What is natural? Depends on the kid, their personality and temperament, and so on. Simple example but you get the idea.

INTP love mate - sure I'd like to try it. Would be interesting, I'd probably learn a lot, especially if she was doing something I'm not versed in like Biology or some field. Of course if my theory about genetics and type is correct, then your odds of getting an INTP are pretty high. A family with three INTP's? Now that's scary.

 

[Intellect]

Thanks for posting this thread Phoenix. I've always been curious about how human relationships and compatibility work. Looking forward to other responses.

Here's mine:

1. What is your relationship with the other INTP(s) you are writing about?

My best friend of 6 or 7 years.

2. How quickly did you get to know each other? Was your connection instant or did it take time to develop?

We became friends very quickly. I think this was partly because of shared interests. When we met (in school), we were the only two hardcore INTXs we knew of. So, I think it was natural to become close in an environment like that.

3. How well do you get along with them? If you do have disagreements, how do you go about resolving them?

We often disagree and have debates, but they've never gotten in the way of our friendship.

I think it's natural for intelligent people (NTs in particular, I guess) to disagree. Argument is almost a pastime for both of us at this point.

4. Do you feel more or less comfortable with them than other people?

We're both very comfortable with each other and never have to put on an act. Most of the time, we can spend time together with very little conversation and still have a great time.

5. Do you have some of the same interests? If so, do you spend time together pursuing these interests?

Yeah, we met primarily because of a shared interest in computers. Since then, most of our major hobbies have been shared.

6. Is it easier to communicate with them than with other people?

Yeah, as I said above, we're very natural around each other. I've also never met someone with such a similar offbeat sense of humor.

7. Do you seem to have a "telepathic" communication with them? Such as, you know what they mean without having to speak, or you know if something has happened to them even from far away?

Sometimes. No more than I have with my other close friends, though.

8. Do you consider them a "kindred spirit" or "soul mate"?

Yeah. He's probably the one friend I'd really care about losing. No one understands me in the same way.

9. Do you find that you love them more or are closer to them than other people?

Yes. See last answer.

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Intellect You're very lucky to have a friend like that. I see that you are an INTJ, I have had a lot of very close INTJ and ENTJ friends and boyfriends. As Architect had mentioned previously, there is a sort of complimentary compatibility that can happen between certain types. I believe that the INTJ/INTP combination results in this kind of compatibility. It's interesting to hear about your experience as an INTJ interacting with an INTP, it sounds nearly identical to what I've experienced.

 

[PhoenixRising]

No actually I think it's due more to MBTI. With other INTP's that I know, I know what they're probably thinking and likely to say, I've noticed. I'm not sure there really is any communication going on, but rather they're so compatible and similar you know what is going on over there. This is especially true with my work friend (another engineer) and son whom I've known his entire life.

The mind-mate/soul mate communication with the INFJ is exactly that. I think it's due to to INFJ's actually having mind reading abilities, and complementary compatibility instead of the a-priori compatibility with INTPs.



Perhaps that has some play too.



Hmmm, yes but it's more than intellectual disagreement. We actually have little of that. More the complementary compatibility I mentioned. She has Ti in the tertiary and loves hearing me pontificate my theories. I also reassure her that the world isn't as bad as it might seem to an Ni/Fe. On my side, her Fe draws out my inferior Fe, a good thing for an INTP. Plus we're good in bed, yeah!



Actually the ultimate way - I think - is to have an INTP kid. Not saying that because I happened to, but its been my observation. My kid has taught me more about 'being an INTP' than anything else, if that makes sense.

For example, taking a page from another thread here, he hated sports. I had parental programming (you discover this when you become one) that said "thou should have kids in sports". Not conscious, but it's programming you pick up that is buried very deep. Anyhow, seeing his reaction made me question, is it really natural that kids run around all the time? What is natural? Depends on the kid, their personality and temperament, and so on. Simple example but you get the idea.

INTP love mate - sure I'd like to try it. Would be interesting, I'd probably learn a lot, especially if she was doing something I'm not versed in like Biology or some field. Of course if my theory about genetics and type is correct, then your odds of getting an INTP are pretty high. A family with three INTP's? Now that's scary.

The whole concept of telepathic communication is convoluted. You're right that what appears to be a "reading of the mind" may simply be having a similar enough thought process that you know what the other person is likely thinking. I am interested in the mind reading capabilities of INFJs, perhaps that has something to do with intuition as we were discussing before.

I have noticed what you call complimentary compatibility, I've always thought of it as a dual system rather than a parallel system. Your wording may make more sense though.

I won't ever have the opportunity to have children, it would kill me. I think I'm too spontaneous to make a good mother anyway, so it's probably better that way. What is your theory of genetics and type, if you don't mind me asking? Do you think that having an INTP parent increases your chances of producing an INTP child? My mother is an ENFP and my father is a ISFP, in your theory would it be rare for two different types to produce another somewhat unrelated type?

 

[Auburn]

Being with INTP's it's almost like being with a clone (certainly so in the case of my son!) ...I don't think an INTP would work out for me. More like a cloned sister than a lover. Would be interesting but not enough spark -

Mmm, this seems to be inverted for me.
If I had a female clone of myself, we'd have an unparalleled spark and an endless list of things to do~

But this, I've come to realize, only seems to apply to me.. so I may not be a very good example. Everyone else I've spoken to, even 'intps', find that the mirror-effect would lead to flat-ness, while for me we would both delve into each other like a mirror facing a mirror - and explore area of each other it is simply impossible for anyone but a psychic duo to perceive. Raw knowing and nakedness of mind-heart. Not romance, not even close. just, soul penetration.

(unfortunately that ship has sailed)
​

 

[Architect]

The whole concept of telepathic communication is convoluted. You're right that what appears to be a "reading of the mind" may simply be having a similar enough thought process that you know what the other person is likely thinking. I am interested in the mind reading capabilities of INFJs, perhaps that has something to do with intuition as we were discussing before.

Yeah I don't know about the mechanism anyhow, I'm just talking about qualitative differences.

I have noticed what you call complimentary compatibility, I've always thought of it as a dual system rather than a parallel system. Your wording may make more sense though.

Either one explains it well enough

What is your theory of genetics and type, if you don't mind me asking? Do you think that having an INTP parent increases your chances of producing an INTP child? My mother is an ENFP and my father is a ISFP, in your theory would it be rare for two different types to produce another somewhat unrelated type?

It's a small theory I've worked on here
MBTI genetic theory

The idea is that Introversion and Intuition are both recessives, which explains the INXX rarity in society as it takes two 'carrier' parents to get it kid where it manifests. And then only 25% of the time. Dual sensor parents would tend to have Sensor kids, except if they had a lot and they both carried the recessive then one of them would likely be an INXX. Dual INXX parents would be more likely to have an INXX kid, if I got my genetics 101 right.

Mmm, this seems to be inverted for me.
If I had a female clone of myself, we'd have an unparalleled spark and an endless list of things to do~​

I don't know, there's good things about all those relationships, in different ways. I love hanging out with my INTP kid, we were playing a iPad video game last night (or he was playing and I was watching) which was really fun. He's getting to the final boss round - wouldn't do that with an INFJ! With them it's more sparkle and surprise, and admittedly I get upset at her more often. But that also forced me to grow as I've adapted to somebody different.​

 

[PhoenixRising]

Mmm, this seems to be inverted for me.
If I had a female clone of myself, we'd have an unparalleled spark and an endless list of things to do~

But this, I've come to realize, only seems to apply to me.. so I may not be a very good example. Everyone else I've spoken to, even 'intps', find that the mirror-effect would lead to flat-ness, while for me we would both delve into each other like a mirror facing a mirror - and explore area of each other it is simply impossible for anyone but a psychic duo to perceive. Raw knowing and nakedness of mind-heart. Not romance, not even close. just, soul penetration.

(unfortunately that ship has sailed)
​

@Auburn, I agree with you actually. Although the complimentary compatibility of INXJs seems to promote growth, I think that parallel compatibility would be a fantastic experience. It's something I've wanted my entire life. Your description "we would both delve into each other like a mirror facing a mirror - and explore area of each other it is simply impossible for anyone but a psychic duo to perceive." is very much how I have imagined it.

It would be enlightening to talk to an INTP who has experienced a romantic relationship with another INTP. Perhaps you and I are correct in our expectations, but perhaps it does tend to fall flat in most cases. I would ask you to try it with me as an experiment, but of course life wouldn't make that sort of thing easy. I wonder if there is anyone out there that has experienced a parallel compatibility like that?

 

[Auburn]

Perhaps you and I are correct in our expectations, but perhaps it does tend to fall flat in most cases. I would ask you to try it with me as an experiment, but of course life wouldn't make that sort of thing easy.

lol, it's funny that you should say that because that's actually precisely how i'd imagine such an ...experiment would arise, as a blunt question, considering such types as ours often bypass social trivialities, power games and protocols - yet we want something more..

And yes, for most cases this truly doesn't work, because most people are not.. *ponders* they would.. *thinks* I guess clash with themselves? Per example two yang personalities, like two Fe lead types both fighting over the same space/domain wouldn't mesh too well. And two personalities that are too yin are prone to slowly dim, like candlelight slowly fading to death in their own way. I suppose I'm neither too yin or yang, and know how to balance any offset.

And I've always internally believed that conscious awareness has the potential to overcome any discord, if the relationship is aware of itself from an eagle's eye and both parties live in a plateau of consciousness that transcends the very strands/threads : inner dynamics, chemistry, tangles, emotions : that so often dictate the flow of 'love', consuming so many within it and making them helpless subordinate to its causality :: and instead steer it, like a precious experiment, into places that only such a delicate deliberation can discover. never losing this god-eye & capacity to objectively view reality.

Though I think this would also takes a lot of maturity, a hell of a lot of self-awareness & an accurate, disillusioned understanding of what a 'human' truly is - which are all independent of type, or culture, or age. mmmm..

I wonder if there is anyone out there that has experienced a parallel compatibility like that?

I wonder this too, and would love to have a chat with them if I ever found one.​

 

[redbaron]

1. What is your relationship with the other INTP(s) you are writing about?

He's my supervisor, I'm not 100% sure he's an INTP but he's at least IxTP.

2. How quickly did you get to know each other? Was your connection instant or did it take time to develop?

Because of the nature of our positions it took some time. Being my supervisor, he expected a certain level of organization that I didn't have. However I now respect him probably more than anyone else I've worked with, and I've received a few promotions based on his word.

He doesn't mind debate or disagreement over work related topics so long as what I say is relevant to the topic and not emotional. Which is fine by me, I have the same preference.

3. How well do you get along with them? If you do have disagreements, how do you go about resolving them?

Generally just have a chat. Doesn't have to be long, we both maybe just need to make a few points and then compare ideas. Usually one of us just approaches the other and will say, 'I was thinking about X idea, and I see this problem with it.' and we work it out from there.

4. Do you feel more or less comfortable with them than other people?

Despite him being my supervisor, I feel very comfortable with him. His sense of humour is off-beat and unexpected, he often just says something off the cuff and it's hilarious. At least it is to me and another guy (ENTJ) I work with. I suspect it's an NT thing, because other people just see it as odd.

5. Do you have some of the same interests? If so, do you spend time together pursuing these interests?

Haven't really met him outside work. Conversation is usually professional/work-oriented but as far as I can tell he just enjoys time to himself.

6. Is it easier to communicate with them than with other people?

Definitely. He's intelligent enough to grasp the underlying meaning of what I'm trying to say 95% of the time. Vice-versa.

7. Do you seem to have a "telepathic" communication with them? Such as, you know what they mean without having to speak, or you know if something has happened to them even from far away?

I'd say so. We often exchange knowing glances and visibly bite our tongues when someone is talking about something at a meeting or just in general. He often says what I'm thinking or vice-versa. Sometimes I say something or bring up a point at a meeting and he confirms it straight away.

Same thing the other way, he often says something and I have that, 'exactly!' reaction in my mind.

8. Do you consider them a "kindred spirit" or "soul mate"?

No.

9. Do you find that you love them more or are closer to them than other people?

Closer than other people who I work with who have higher or equal authority, yes. I would probably be annoyed if I had to report to someone else.

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Auburn

Well, who needs social trivialities anyway? People use too many empty words for what they really want to say. So many times this makes their meaning get completely lost in the fog. INTPs seem to be more practical than most people, that's probably why we are often the first to discover the truth.

What you may find interesting is that I have performed many of these such experiments. All of them have been with INTJs or ENTJs. There was one individual in particular that I had the most fascinating experience with. It started out that he was my mentor, he taught me transcendental meditation and about the notion that one could reach "Nirvana" by interfacing with someone with opposite polarity and creating an infinite feedback loop. This sounds very much like what you were talking about, combining the yin and yang.

It ended up that we had what would be called a true psychic connection. I could hear his thoughts from hundreds of miles away. Eventually the duality between us tore the whole thing apart, especially since he was a very strong J type. Since my experience with him, I have been exceedingly curious about how far it could go with someone of the same type. I have tried the same thing with several other J types that are more similar to me since then, but the duality always gets in the way of a deeper connection. Perhaps it's that I never truly have found my "perfect duality" if there is such a thing. Though, I have a feeling that the secret to being able to experience the deepest regions of existence is in the pairing of parallels.

I believe that you are right about conscious awareness having the ability to overcome discord. The only requirement for that is that both individuals desire growth and connection more than they desire discord. Steering relationships in certain directions is something I've had a lot of practice at. It's given me a deeper understanding of what makes the human psyche work, at least for NT types.

All it really comes down to is, I desire to know the universe. I want to understand the things people say are impossible to understand. I want to experience the deepest beauty that is possible. To share that experience with someone else would, in my opinion, be what true love really is.

 

[kora]

I would really like to meet an INTP irl, but I've got a feeling that unless the situation forced us together neither of us would speak to one another...

 

[Auburn]

@PhoenixRising - Interesting indeed. o.o
Yes, those are some of the type of experiments I'd like to try.

Curious how you could have such a connection with a type that shares no functions. Though some people say that ENTJs are the perfect duals for INTPs due to this very psychic inversion while still being T>N>S>F. I'm nescient about that theory atm though..

One related thing I want to note, something that I've realized is that, second to psychological type (which very much plays a major role in people relations)compatibility also comes down to having the same spirit*. Two people of the same type can have different spirits, and dissimilar types can have similar spirits. And the two have to coincide for there to be profound resonance.

Someone who you love for their spirit, but is innately different from you, may change their spirit with time and the connection vanishes. In contrast, type is innate, resonance is naturally embedded in the psyche, and spirits can be shaped & transformed to meet the situation without compromising or ..sacrificing parts of your nature to do so.

Growth and development is incapable of changing what is innate, and there will always be a limit to the intimacy possible if this doesn't match up. The two people's actualizations will be pivoted against each other, requiring of each to take a path that is unsuited for their partner.

So the key pivot point is finding the right** nature in the other, and a zeal for personal refinement/transformation to account for the rest, and .... then I think it's possible to go way deeper.

{* = ...by spirit I don't mean to sound too mystical, but is essentially a combination of a person's values, their concept of normalcy, level of openness (which is very deeply rooted in childhood developmental stages, and whether a child learned to trust their parent - etc), sense of humor, cultural adaptation, realizations, development, and their ideas & visions.}

{** = whether that is mirror-pairings, inverted, polar.. or another *unsure*}

Spoiler

My particular spirit is actually more similar to the common INFJ's than the common INTP. But my spirit's also a bit jaded and will likely remain so for a long time, heh... c.c

 

[PhoenixRising]

One related thing I want to note, something that I've realized is that, second to psychological type (which very much plays a major role in people relations)compatibility also comes down to having the same spirit*. Two people of the same type can have different spirits, and dissimilar types can have similar spirits. And the two have to coincide for there to be profound resonance.

Someone who you love for their spirit, but is innately different from you, may change their spirit with time and the connection vanishes. In contrast, type is innate, resonance is naturally embedded in the psyche, and spirits can be shaped & transformed to meet the situation without compromising or ..sacrificing parts of your nature to do so.​

​

I do consider INTJs as the dual counterparts to INTPs. I think any INXJ type could possibly be a duality. As you say though, there are other subtleties that seem to count at least just as much as type.

What I believe you are calling a "spirit" is what I've referred to as one's "intrinsic tendencies". Each individual has a nature, a certain feeling about them, certain subtle tendencies that make them who they are. It's interesting that you should bring this up, because my current ENTJ boyfriend shared the same spirit with me until recently. Now that he's changed, communication has become almost impossible.

Do you have any theories about what this spirit is? I have thought a lot about it. A while ago I wrote down a couple of theories; I thought it could be the variation in synaptic pathways caused by quantum fluctuation during neural development. Or, that there is a set of complex equations that govern the human race, and your entire form and function is based around the equation you fall into. However, now that I know spirits can change, those theories don't make as much sense.

hmm, all of this makes something I thought was pretty straight-forward more difficult to achieve. I think that you're right though, that finding someone that's on the same wavelength and who has the desire to improve and transform is the key to deeper understanding.

I think in order to truly know if you have the same spirit as someone else, you really have to interact with them in person.

I don't know what you mean by a "common INFJ spirit", but I intuitively sense you as being very gentile and mysterious in a cool way. Like the color of the sky at dawn when there is still a thin veneer of clouds over the blue. That's just my impression though.

I don't really know how to describe my spirit. I feel kind of like the forest, deep and still. I definitely have a strong sense of wonder for the universe. I have been described as being mysterious in a cosmic way.

 

[Auburn]

Why thank you. o.o
Perhaps I don't live up to such a comparison though. some deeper looks at myself have made me realize how human and ordinary i truly am, and the illusions of specialness we hold dear to, especially of ourselves..

but this is me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAC8GANaVNU

Mmm, somehow I get the impressing that you are more of an alpha-being, as in dominant & confident. But I'm almost surely misreading something.​

 

[PhoenixRising]

Very lovely song. It has an endearing feeling about it, it's soft, passive, whimsical, carefree. If that's what you are, then you're certainly not ordinary. I think that kind of beauty is amazing, it reminds me of a lot of dreams that I've had.

I've built confidence over the years, most of it is a defense mechanism. My natural state is very reserved and passive. I'm certainly not dominating, I am very straight-forward though. What just came to mind is, did you see the new Alice in Wonderland? I'm almost exactly like the Alice character in almost every respect. I even kind of look like her, lol.

You seem more focused on detail and more organized than I am. Maybe I have more P-ness and you have more J-ness or something. You did say that you're more like an INFJ. After reading, I think I could be an INFP (although I would hate to admit that I feel more than I think )

I guess if I were going to pick a song that represented me, it would be this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT6zE_ApOVs&feature=related

This guy's version of Greensleeves is probably what fits me best, but I can't find it on youtube :P

 

[Auburn]

(edit: aaaa, you changed your song!
um, weelp, the below is in reference to your first song.)

..The song is wonder-full, mesmerizing. I can feel the subtle intensity & life ..flame. gentle sacredness. It reminds me so much of a song I love that has a similar feel, which I can't resist posting now! ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCVWZ1PHqQg

This song isn't a state I can continually exist in, but a place I go to periodically and draw out from the wells of its tension, bask in it for a while, feel the passion & conviction it holds, then release the tension and return to my quiet resting place. Then maybe I'll take in some japanese pop to balance things out, lol.

So many good songs.
Maybe I should resist turning this into a post-a-song thread.

Defense mechanism, yes.. I think I can see it now. A sort of over-done confidence, while other things you've shared, like the poetry, suggest that isn't entirely native? Then again, being around NTJs really challenges your resolve, so I dunno.

You do look like Alice, and also like a Lord of the Rings elf daughter of some sort. Hmm. The Alice actress is an ISTP in real life. You don't strike me as an INFP tho; the profiles for T types greatly underestimate how much T's also use feeling, but that's a whole other topic in itself.

Question... is your signature a reference to the Christian God? Cuz if so, I must politely call out bs. 0:​

 

[PhoenixRising]

oh dear, I didn't think you had seen the first one :P Sorry. Like I was saying, I just felt that it wasn't entirely accurate as far as my personality goes. I'm glad you like it, though, it is very beautiful and has a mystical air about it that I really relate with. I know what you mean about going to different places of feeling, I do that a lot. The feeling that your first song gives me is one of my favorites, as I said I've had a lot of dreams that felt like that. There's one dream in particular that's very special to me.

Your second song reminds me a lot of the Lord of the Rings, it's really rich with feeling. Speaking of which, I actually dressed up as an elf from the movie for a renaissance fair once. I must have been pretty convincing, since there was this Irish lady there who literally thought I was an elf. She ran after me with a pitchfork demanding her "three wishes". lol

Being close with INTJs has definitely had an effect on me. When I'm alone, it pretty much wares off though. I tend to be very fluid, automatically adapting to whoever I'm with or the surroundings I'm in. The only thing that seems to stay consistent is my intuition and observational capabilities, I really am a multifaceted creature.

So, how about, I'll tell you what God I'm referencing if you'll send me that picture you owe me come on, you know you want to...


edit: oh, I thought of something I think you'll probably like. This guy is a good friend of mine, he posts some really pretty songs. http://www.youtube.com/user/Justicepianosongs?feature=watch

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Auburn

God is a complex topic. There are a couple of conversations I've had about my experiences and beliefs on my profile. I don't really like to call God "God", but that is the most universally recognized term. The most accurate name for God that I've come across is Yahweh. This means "to be" or "to become" in Hebrew.

Basically, the way I see the Cosmos is like a candle. At the center there is a singularity, all existence, all light, all consciousness outside of time. This is like the candle flame. Outside of the flame there is a spectrum, white light that has been broken into its constituents. The consciousness that inhabits the singularity is what we call "God". The spectrum is what we call "Creation".

I was raised in a Christian/Catholic religion. When I was 17, I decided to set aside everything I thought I believed and I asked God to show me the truth, I even asked that I would know for sure if he was listening. That is about the time I met my mentor that I told you about. I learned some amazing things about the universe, including the candle analogy.

 

[Auburn]

@PhoenixRising - I like the Hebrew translation, yes. ^^ I once read the first ~11 chapters of the Torah word for word with a Hebrew concordance in hand because I truly wanted to know what it meant - firsthand. I felt it was the purest way I had to gain knowledge about it. I was 17, I think. o.o;

What I came to see was that the Genesis tale, if examined closely, and literally, shockingly actually did align with geography, genetics, biology, anthropology, astrology - and was in fact an elegant and literal record of how our climates, continents, races, languages, and everything else came to be where it is now.

I went deeper still, and later realized that Jesus of Nazareth made many undeniable references to the book of Enoch, which existed in his time, and I looked into that book as well, though I found most of the other apocryphal books lacking. But well, the Book of Enoch has a much richer account of the antediluvian tale. Archangels & so on; fascinating and exhilarating to think about.

I eventually started writing a book on the perspective of the life of a girl from that era - taking a few creative liberties and adding my own twist, of course. :3 But being chronologically accurate up to the actual ages of the Sethian genealogy.

My falling away from religion came by the same truth-seeking that led me into it. I realized I was making many big leap/fallacies in logic, how all religions could also be explained from another angle - as fabrications or embodied superstitions born from deep inner cravings for meaning and purpose. So I look at religion instead now as a sort of psychodrama of humanity; our spiritual cravings playing themselves out over and over through different embodied systems that all ask the same questions about life, death, soul, love, universe, truth: and have different answers for them.

What the actual answers are, I think, have to be reached through uninvested eyes -- from a mind of non-desire, that isn't trying to find meaning -- and when I do so, I find, repeatedly, that the answer has no reason to be elegant or poetic, and that the most rational probability lies in the absence of deity.
​

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Auburn

That must have been a fascinating study. I have always wanted to read the Torah and understand the meaning of it, even just as a lesson in ancient thought. I considered getting into Messianic Judaism for a while. I would love to read what you have of the book you wrote sometime.

It's amazing, your description of how the Genesis story relates to reality in a scientific way is the same conclusion I came to a while ago. I focused specifically on one relation, the verse "God spoke and there was light" and the big bang theory. It seems to me that the word "spoke" could actually refer to a certain quantum wavelength, since speech is sound waves.

I agree with you about religion, people that think it was created by a god are crazy. You described it well, "...our spiritual cravings playing themselves out over and over through different embodied systems that all ask the same questions about life, death, soul, love, universe, truth: and have different answers for them."

I believe you are also correct that you have to have a completely unbiased mind in order to see things for what they truly are. My belief in Yahweh, the overall consciousness, stems entirely from my experiences. I can feel this presence, this life in everything, and it answers my questions. I suppose it could be some sort of subtle intuition, after all that is the way I mainly sense the world. Then again, what or who am I intuiting?

 

[Auburn]

@PhoenixRising -
This means war. <3​

 

[Cognisant]

It seems to me that the word "spoke" could actually refer to a certain quantum wavelength, since speech is sound waves.

Quantum wavelength...
You have no idea what you're talking about do you?

 

[PhoenixRising]

Quantum wavelength...
You have no idea what you're talking about do you?

Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about. What we call particles are, in theory, different oscillations of the same thing. This is essentially the quantum field theory (see the standard model, gauge symmetry, etc.). My translation of the scripture "God spoke and there was light" is taking a metaphorical concept and comparing it to a legitimate scientific theory. Admittedly, this is indeed metaphysics. I thought the comparison was interesting though.

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Auburn
..and this is where the experiment begins to get even more interesting <3

 

[Cognisant]

Oh okay then, what's god a metaphor for?
If we are speaking metaphorically, that is.

Because, as you obviously know, despite the incidental use of the word "wave" the principles of quantum mechanics and audible pressure waves are about as relevant to each other to the motions of people and planets.

I feel the need to make that abundantly clear because, well, there are some daft people who may take such an incidental correlation and run off with it into all manner of silliness, and I do object to that, the silliness.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Oh okay then, what's god a metaphor for?
If we are speaking metaphorically, that is.

Because, as you obviously know, despite the incidental use of the word "wave" the principles of quantum mechanics and audible pressure waves are about as relevant to each other to the motions of people and planets.

I feel the need to make that abundantly clear because, well, there are some daft people who may take such an incidental correlation and run off with it into all manner of silliness, and I do object to that, the silliness.

Actually, waves are waves. Sound waves are oscillations through the air. Light waves are oscillations through the electromagnetic field. Color and pitch are two types of the same thing, our perception of wave frequencies. There are four forces that govern the way the universe works: electromagnetic, gravity, strong and weak. All of these forces are said to exist as quantum fields in which objects create disturbances and manifest the interactions we observe between them. I am not completely convinced that the standard model is completely correct, however it is the most widely accepted theory at this time.

There are indeed a lot of silly metaphysical theories out there. Like the popular one where scientists believe that we actually create reality by observing it. They apparently don't want to think about decoherence. Or the one that even Hawking supported, where they believe that there is a multiverse where we exist in different states in infinite different dimensions. That could be true, but there is no objective evidence for the theory. There could also be dragons or elves.. because that would be cool too.

I think you just got pissed off because I mentioned God. You were probably hoping for a religious debate. Unfortunately for you, I'm not religious. I am spiritual, however, but I do recognize that my spirituality is a function of my extroverted intuition.

 

[Auburn]

To take Cog's side...
To use the verse Genesis 1:3 "And God said let there be light"
And not be religious is a bit ridiculous.

To believe in that verse, you have to believe in the Torah.
To believe in the Torah, you have to believe in the God of Abraham.
The God who created Adam & Eve (ex: contradicting evolution).

The same penman that wrote that verse (biblical Moses) also
wrote the tale of Adam and Eve a chapter later. The God he describes is inseparable from the rest of the tale.

So if you're going to refer to "God", it is either a concept of God entirely unrelated to Biblical accounts, like Spinozism (and thus you cannot use Genesis 1:3) or it is the God of the biblical account.

***
​

But as you admitted, you simply find the comparison interesting, which is fine.

I guess there is a potential intermediate where a Being could exist that did create the universe through literal manipulation of waves into particles & matter by "speaking" (if we use the word speaking loosely as being a form of wave fluctuation - not anything resembling human language though) but if so, it would be an utter coincidence that the Christian religion had a verse that could be in some angle viewed similar to that.

Assuming you don't believe in the Divine Biblical Inspiration through the holy spirit, you also must admit that the biblical author Moses had no idea what in the world quantum theory was, in those primitive times. So he clearly didn't write that verse with the intent of communicating what you are trying to extract. The comparison is unwarranted. Novel as it may be.

Just, trying to set the record straight.
Because whenever the word God is introduced into a topic, its connotations & meanings have to be clearly spelled out..

Keeping things ambiguous shows a failure to properly criticize constructs of one's own mind. Perhaps of an emotional attachment to a concept or fear of losing a dear belief...

I know you say you're not religious but I wonder what aspects of christianity you are still (subconsciously?) hanging onto that affect the ideas your thoughts gravitate towards.
​

 

[EyeSeeCold]

To take Cog's side...
To use the verse Genesis 1:3 "And God said let there be light"
And not be religious is a bit ridiculous.

To believe in that verse, you have to believe in the Torah.
To believe in the Torah, you have to believe in the God of Abraham.
The God who created Adam & Eve (ex: contradicting evolution).

The same penman that wrote that verse (biblical Moses) also
wrote the tale of Adam and Eve a chapter later. The God he describes is inseparable from the rest of the tale.

So if you're going to refer to "God", it is either a concept of God entirely unrelated to Biblical accounts, like Spinozism (and thus you cannot use Genesis 1:3) or it is the God of the biblical account.

***
​

​

There's nothing wrong with comparing a passage with another aspect of reality.

The Bible is as a much a work of prose and storytelling, as it is a religious handbook. On one level, followers are expected to take the scriptures literally; however the scriptures also exist on a higher plane of spirituality and analogy, independent of absolute literal adherence.

You don't have to believe in the literal story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden to realize that temptation exists in the world and sometimes you may bite off more than you can chew, yet innocence cannot be recaptured.

It's one example but the Bible contains many verses of wisdom that you don't need to be a follow of Abrahamic faith to appreciate.

 

[Auburn]

Yes, and I actually use it as such. It does show an interesting array of human dynamics. But there is a difference between trying to extract metaphorical and moral lessons from the tales, and trying to extract laws of quantum physics. =P

I was sorta just saying that the phrase:

"It seems to me that the word "spoke" could actually refer to a certain quantum wavelength, since speech is sound waves."
​

Is basically like saying/implying...

"It seems to me that by the word "spoke" the bible may have actually meant/been-referring-to certain quantum wavelength, since speech is sound waves."
​

Which is to place the Bible first, and make sense of reality from its words. Rather than make sense of reality on its own, and make sense of the bible as an aspect of it. The word "spoke" could not have been written with the intent of communicating the concept of quantum vibrations if the authors were ignorant of the concept.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I understand. I thought it was just a metaphorical analogy between scripture and physics, but I see where you are coming from if it was meant that the passage was directly referring to quantum phenomena.

 

[koan]

tbh, I didn't really look into the whole MBTI thing enough to know that INTP is rare. I'm just finding this out now. It sure helps me understand some of the troubles I've had in the past.

I had figured I'd be happier if I met someone like me because other people don't let me disappear into my projects. I get a lot of blame for not "needing" them and have been wildly confused as to what they meant. I get excited by charismatic people but have learned to stay away from them in relationships. Most people have called me "cold" but I'm an artist. I write satire. I make people laugh (intentionally) almost every day... yet I'm "the ice queen" to my partners. Quite frankly, I have doubted if there is anyone other than my kid that I can stand being around on a constant basis because they're all too needy and I'm not their mother.

Short answer: No, I've never dated an INTP

 

[PhoenixRising]

To say that if one references a passage from a religious text, they must necessarily follow the beliefs and rituals of the religion from which the text came is faulty logic.

The syllogism is correct in form, however it is still illogical due to a false premise:

If you reference a religious text, Then you must follow the corresponding religious beliefs.
I referenced the Bible,
Therefore I must be Jewish or Christian.

Something I was interested in a while ago is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics


Truth be told, I didn’t read the whole book. However, it was the inspiration for me to contemplate how the wisdom found in ancient writings could be an intuitive phenomenon. I think that it is highly probable that ancient scholars came to much of their knowledge through their intuitive abilities. This can be said not only for religious texts, but for the writings of ancient philosophers. I mainly read the writings of Plato and Aristotle. Aristotle in particular was interesting to me, he intuited that the entire universe is in constant motion to the smallest levels of existence. His ideas are basic, and somewhat misleading at times, but he did get the general idea correct.

I guess there is a potential intermediate where a Being could exist that did create the universe through literal manipulation of waves into particles & matter by "speaking" (if we use the word speaking loosely as being a form of wave fluctuation - not anything resembling human language though) but if so, it would be an utter coincidence that the Christian religion had a verse that could be in some angle viewed similar to that.

This is more of the mindset I was in when I made the comparison. However, I don’t know if a Being had to be involved. Perhaps Moses intuited something about the origins of the big bang, and wrote about it in terms he could understand.


I think that taking any form of creative writing literally is short sighted. This can cross over to becoming dangerous when it comes to religious texts. The story of Adam and Eve, for example, is a parable. Parables were a popular form of allegory during the time the Bible was written. In my opinion, the “Tree of Knowledge” wasn’t a tree with fruit on it. It is a metaphor for when man’s mind evolved past the primitive form of his monkey ancestors and he became a sentient creature. The concepts of “good” and “evil” are a very human thing, other animals just survive without thinking in this sort of way. Could the first human thought of higher cognitive functioning have been the concept of good and evil? It is a possibility, one that I think is very interesting to contemplate.

I know you say you're not religious but I wonder what aspects of christianity you are still (subconsciously?) hanging onto that affect the ideas your thoughts gravitate towards.

Lol, good question. I actually think the story of Jesus is pretty cool. He was like one of the earliest hippies.. Jesus taught about peace and love, and how important being respectful and kind to other people was. He lived like a nomad, and protested the corrupt religious/political establishment. I do.. like that persona. There should be more people like that that actually do something besides smoke pot.


I could ask you the same question. When we first began talking, it seemed you were in a mindset that what you had intuited from the Torah was indicative of how the universe actually formed. When I challenged that notion with my mention of the decoupling epoch, you had to recollect your thoughts. Taking your education into consideration, this makes sense. I think we are both biased in the same sort of way in that we were brought up in traditional Western Christian religions.

 

[Ink]

@Auburn and @PhoenixRising sitting in a tree?

 

[Auburn]

e-errr... ...w-well..
lol

we do science together. ^.^

 

[PhoenixRising]

e-errr... ...w-well..
lol

we do science together. ^.^

hehe.. science =D

or perhaps.. awesome/epic/complex experiments would be more accurate.

 

[Ink]

Keep on experimenting I'd say

 

[PhoenixRising]

Keep on experimenting I'd say

^^

we do plan to..

 

[Duxwing]

The whole concept of telepathic communication is convoluted. You're right that what appears to be a "reading of the mind" may simply be having a similar enough thought process that you know what the other person is likely thinking. I am interested in the mind reading capabilities of INFJs, perhaps that has something to do with intuition as we were discussing before.

I have noticed what you call complimentary compatibility, I've always thought of it as a dual system rather than a parallel system. Your wording may make more sense though.

I won't ever have the opportunity to have children, it would kill me. I think I'm too spontaneous to make a good mother anyway, so it's probably better that way. What is your theory of genetics and type, if you don't mind me asking? Do you think that having an INTP parent increases your chances of producing an INTP child? My mother is an ENFP and my father is a ISFP, in your theory would it be rare for two different types to produce another somewhat unrelated type?

Not to be a grammar Nazi, but you can have children, you just can't survive pregnancy. If you want to raise a child, then just find a partner (this'll be a long-term project, so pick someone that you really like!) and grab as many children as you want from a local orphanage, then raise them and enjoy.

-Duxwing

 

[Auburn]

Not to be a grammar Nazi, but you can have children, you just can't survive pregnancy. If you want to raise a child, then just find a partner (this'll be a long-term project, so pick someone that you really like!) and grab as many children as you want from a local orphanage, then raise them and enjoy.

-Duxwing

O:

duxy... raising children is madness! lol
it would drain my whole energies. i hardly remember to feed myself. =P

once you have children that basically becomes your full-time project for the next 16+ years. c.c No time for other sciency stuff.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Not to be a grammar Nazi, but you can have children, you just can't survive pregnancy. If you want to raise a child, then just find a partner (this'll be a long-term project, so pick someone that you really like!) and grab as many children as you want from a local orphanage, then raise them and enjoy.

-Duxwing

Actually, I was referring mostly to emotionally. I am far too much of a free spirit to be tied down by something like children, at least not until I'm much older. It would rot me away until I had no will to live I suspect. My partner and I desire to do a lot of traveling and deep self-discovery, children aren't really something on our minds.

 

[Ink]

My partner and I desire to do a lot of traveling and deep self-discovery, children aren't really something on our minds.

You and Auburn should come to Sweden, we'll meet at some café, bring laptops, surf INTPf and discuss typology! What do you say?

 

[PhoenixRising]

@Ink

well, we have talked about meeting other INTPs..

but in truth, we're probably too lazy to make the trip >.>

 

[Ink]

@Ink

well, we have talked about meeting other INTPs..

but in truth, we're probably too lazy to make the trip >.>

See The girl with the dragon tattoo and you may get motivated to visit this place... Probably not going to happen, but you can never explore too many Ne options

 

[Auburn]

Unless... we go as part of a European tour! \o/

Or if not, there's a probability that our generation (assuming you're not over 40) will live to see the beginnings of indefinite longevity --- and air-flight become as cheap as a taxi. So we'll meet eventually!

 

[PhoenixRising]

ooh European tour! yesh, I'm sure we'll do that eventually..

Maybe if you become famous because of Cognitive Type, we could travel as part of tours where you give lectures =D

we're gonna need to live indefinitely to do everything we want to do ^^

 

[Architect]

Unless... we go as part of a European tour! \o/

Or if not, there's a probability that our generation (assuming you're not over 40) will live to see the beginnings of indefinite longevity

May happen for those older too. The idea is 'escape velocity', use incremental longevity treatments to make it to the next point where treatments for living even longer become available. Its a good idea to take care of yourself too, which is why I'm a health fanatic.

 

[Auburn]

Yes, you can make it too, Architect! you're still fresh!
I shall visit you one day, wearing a Neo suit and black glasses..