INTP: The Most Independent Type

[OmoInisa]

Hello all.

I deliberately chose this somewhat provocative title. I note that there was a thread a while ago about which type was the most 'independent'. Predictably, it quickly descended into a pissing contest with people arguing for their own type or generally talking past each other. The main reason for this was simply that people had different conceptions of independence in mind. Few intuitives, especially NTs, want to be seen as one of the sheeple.
So I hope to ward off any danger of a repeat of that scenario by nailing down exactly what I have in mind here.

For a little while now I have been pondering the idea of what makes a type independent of the external world. This doesn't consider any notion of 'needing' or not needing anything or anyone, or of not liking to control or be controlled. Those are interesting areas as well, but here I'm interested purely in independence or desire for independence from external circumstances. A bias away from external reality.

I contend that it should be fairly easy to gain consensus (even from non-INTPs) on the proposition that the INTP is the most independent, under this definition.
I'd like to know what people think on this. If there's significant dissent, then we'll no doubt delve into the basis for this hypothesis.

Either way, there are likely a number of interesting areas of exploration that follow on from this, not least whether Keirsey's formulation, while ground-breaking for a number of reasons, has led people to fix lazily into certain limited (and perhaps erroneous) modes of thinking.

 

[Architect]

Agreed, I've made this point before. I think somewhere in the AA thread I have a list where I take a stab at most to least independent.

For INTP's it's mainly Ti which drives the independence. Unlike Te this one seeks personal methodologies and theories. The reason is simple, that's what introversion means. Te looks for external systems.

The only other type with Ti in the dominant is ISTP, but here the difference is with Ne INTP's are more prone to differentiation from the herd (this is true for all intuitive types). Having S high in your stack leads you towards the group.

So INTP is the only type with the most independent function in the dominant, and one of the second most independent functions in the secondary. So it's the most independent type, or at least the one most desiring independence.

 

[Reluctantly]

I don't think saying "Te looks for external systems" is accurate though. Although it's true that Te is conceptually an objective function that finds and understands quantitative relations in the external, its axiomatic backing is made up of subjective perceptions, either Ni or Si of the external.

And though Ti is subjective and thus very independent in how it qualitatively connects the external world around it, it's also an axiomatic backing for Ne or Se, a mode of being that perceives reality externally through these qualitative connections.

Thus, Ti, as well as any introverted function isn't completely independent from external circumstances. They depend on them for their subjectively, rather.

So the question then becomes, which one is more independant, Si, Ni, Ti, or Fi? Because each introverted function is manifesting its own subjective manifestation of the external, and subsequently pushing itself away from being objective.

This should leave room for more non-biased discussion as well.

 

[Architect]

I don't think saying "Te looks for external systems" is accurate though.

It was a one line throw off to get the idea across, of course Te and Ti are more nuanced than that.

 

[OmoInisa]

So the question then becomes, which one is more independant, Si, Ni, Ti, or Fi? Because each introverted function is manifesting its own subjective manifestation of the external, and subsequently pushing itself away from being objective.

Your point is an interesting one. I agree that the supporting extroverted perceiving function should be seen as being joined in a synthesised and inter-dependent whole with the dominant introverted judging function.
However, this is true for all types and is not a differentiator, so that doesn't really challenge Architect's point. The question you pose in this quote does push us forward quite nicely though.
I suspect Architect took it as self-evident that Ti is the most independent out of the introverted functions and so stated it as a matter of course.
But we should lay it all out for the purposes of the discussion. Which do you think is the most independent, and why?

Perhaps I might put the initial issue of the 'stakeholder' Pe function to bed by saying that the dominant function is unambiguously greater than the auxiliary, and so it must rule. We must accept this basic premise, otherwise INTPs and ENTPs would be barely distinguishable. This I'm sure you'll agree is very far from the case.

 

[TheManBeyond]

i swear i saw the face before the couple

 

[OmoInisa]

i swear i saw the face before the couple

Badasssss!

 

[Analyzer]

So the question then becomes, which one is more independant, Si, Ni, Ti, or Fi? Because each introverted function is manifesting its own subjective manifestation of the external, and subsequently pushing itself away from being objective.

You first have to establish what it means for a function to be independent. I take it that a function is more independent when it less dependent on other functions according to a type.

We can make a clearer case by distinguishing how each function operates in reality. Using the epistemological justifications of a priori knowledge and a posteriori, we can can correlate introverted functions as being similar to a priori and extroverted functions as a posteriori. INJs might come to an essence of an idea or form by using Ni alone. This is done without relying on the external, but of course in a subjective manner. Introverted functions are necessarily more independent than extroverted functions as they function independently from experience(external).

Now just because introverted functions can function independently from the external, doesn't mean they can't and shouldn't be used in conjunction with external functions. An example is Ti/Fi relying on Ne/Se to gather external information for a more complete and elaborate judgement. Without Ne or Se, IP's wouldn't be able to objectively build an understanding or make connections about their subjective reasoning(Ti) or values(Fi). In the case of Ni/Si, just because an IJ subjectively infers a vision(Ni) or experience(Si) doesn't mean it holds up in the objective world. For this they would need to use Te or Fe to make it plausible. Depending on how well their Te or Fe is developed, the more effective it can be brought onto the world(external).

Ni/Si and Ti/Fi are all independent functions but once you combine them with their auxiliary functions for the dominant users(IJ's,IP's), you can see how IP's especially INP's are more independent than IJ's as Ne and Se aren't directly concerned with external systems(Fe,Te) but rather external information-concrete(Se) or abstract(Ne). Ultimately external systems rely on dependency for cohesion, while the external world is full of raw data to be observed independently. So Ti and Fi are the most independent functions and when combined with Ne they are more independent than Se, making INFPs and INTPs the most independent types. Whether INFP's are more independent compared to INTP's is a question of whether the Ti/Fe axis is more independent than Fi/Te. I would say this depends on the context of the environment. A INFP might feel more independent if a Te system is in place while the INTP if their Fe can be fulfilled from being around others.

 

[Reluctantly]

I suspect Architect took it as self-evident that Ti is the most independent out of the introverted functions and so stated it as a matter of course.
But we should lay it all out for the purposes of the discussion. Which do you think is the most independent, and why?

Well, you may not agree with my theoretical backing for what I'm saying here, but this is what I'd say

Introverted feeling has a focus on internalizing the emotions of other people (and the self) and in a feeling-sort-of-way rationally affirming what it means and why and what to do about it (unconscious Te). So Fi probably isn't as independent from other people as say Ti is, which seems more focused on a separation from deeply analyzing the emotions of others and instead on rationally affirming things in a manner that only deals with perhaps other people's emotional states (unconscious Fe) as opposed to an understanding of those other people's emotional states (which would probably be more Fi-ish).

And Si seems to be about internalizing the more immediate sensations from the surrounding world, giving those sensations or groups of sensations a particular kind of meaning. This one is hard for me to say, but I can imagine someone living alone in the wilderness and enjoying not being a part of civilization as some strong Si type of person. They might get good vibes from it all, one could say. So an Si type could be pretty independent. And Ni seems to be about internalizing the the immediate sensations of the world, imagining what different things mean and what they are and why. So much time imagining the meaning behind everything could turn someone into a Wallflower, preferring to play a more behind the scenes role with other people, not wanting to be noticed by many, but perhaps enjoying the uniqueness of other people for their interesting differences.

So I think Fi is the least independent from other people, but I can't decide if Si, Ni, or Ti is most independent from other people. Honestly though, I think Si might enjoy being away from people the most. There was this guy that lived in Alaska for some years by himself. He learned how to build cabins and do everything he needed to survive. He didn't need to do it, he had a family and money, but dreamed about it and just did it when he retired and he was very happy to get to do such a thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke So I'd say Si perhaps (if other people or civilization don't give a positive sensory impression on the Si individual), since I think Ti and Ni get some sort of inherent intellectual satisfaction from people, whether good or bad, for Ti being Fe and for Ni, it's probably the Se experience of different people.

eh, that took too long to write. I'm not going to proof-read it. :P

 

[Analyzer]

Well, you may not agree with my theoretical backing for what I'm saying here, but this is what I'd say

Introverted feeling has a focus on internalizing the emotions of other people (and the self) and in a feeling-sort-of-way rationally affirming what it means and why and what to do about it (unconscious Te). So Fi probably isn't as independent from other people as say Ti is, which seems more focused on a separation from deeply analyzing the emotions of others and instead on rationally affirming things in a manner that only deals with perhaps other people's emotional states (unconscious Fe) as opposed to an understanding of those other people's emotional states (which would probably be more Fi-ish).

And Si seems to be about internalizing the more immediate sensations from the surrounding world, giving those sensations or groups of sensations a particular kind of meaning. This one is hard for me to say, but I can imagine someone living alone in the wilderness and enjoying not being a part of civilization as some strong Si type of person. They might get good vibes from it all, one could say. So an Si type could be pretty independent. And Ni seems to be about internalizing the the immediate sensations of the world, imagining what different things mean and what they are and why. So much time imagining the meaning behind everything could turn someone into a Wallflower, preferring to play a more behind the scenes role with other people, not wanting to be noticed by many, but perhaps enjoying the uniqueness of other people for their interesting differences.

So I think Fi is the least independent from other people, but I can't decide if Si, Ni, or Ti is most independent from other people. Honestly though, I think Si might enjoy being away from people the most. There was this guy that lived in Alaska for some years by himself. He learned how to build cabins and do everything he needed to survive. He didn't need to do it, he had a family and money, but dreamed about it and just did it when he retired and he was very happy to get to do such a thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke So I'd say Si perhaps (if other people or civilization don't give a positive sensory impression on the Si individual), since I think Ti and Ni get some sort of inherent intellectual satisfaction from people, whether good or bad, for Ti being Fe and for Ni, it's probably the Se experience of different people.

eh, that took too long to write. I'm not going to proof-read it. :P

Dude seems like an INFP. Si doms-ISJs are independent people but rely on people or systems for daily functioning. They aren't the types to go against the grain and become a hermit so to speak, unless forced by consequences. It's not that they wouldn't be good at it, but they are duty oriented people at end of day. The INFP is the quintessential "Into the wild" idealist type. The INTP is the "lighthouse keeper" type that connects with people when necessary or to report and share their findings to others after all the contemplation that has taken place.

 

[Absurdity]

People seem to be neglecting any mention of inferior Fe. All the independent theorizing in the world doesn't matter to an INTP if the findings can't be shared.

INTJ Te uses external systems but isn't necessarily dependent. Inferior Se motivation for success is the accrual of material comfort, not approval. Hence the INTJ mad scientist stereotype.

 

[OmoInisa]

People seem to be neglecting any mention of inferior Fe. All the independent theorizing in the world doesn't matter to an INTP if the findings can't be shared.

INTJ Te uses external systems but isn't necessarily dependent. Inferior Se motivation for success is the accrual of material comfort, not approval. Hence the INTJ mad scientist stereotype.

Agreed that the INTP's aspirational inferior seeks agreement and approval, while the INTJ's does not. However let's bear in mind that the focus here is on 'bias away from external reality'
The essence of Te is the manipulation of the external, hence it cannot be said to have a bias away from it (as with any other extroverted function), by definition. Similarly, I would probably question the idea of Se being more biased away from externals. One could argue that Fe can gain that desired approval and recognition while interacting with the outside world less directly (this actually touches on the essential difference between feeling judgement and thinking judgement), while Se must see and do physical things, by its nature.

Now, to the issue of an INTP's endeavours holding no value to her unless she can share them and have them used and appreciated. This is a common notion stemming from the concept of the inferior being the destination point of the psyche. While I agree with the basic essence of the idea (that a type aspires to its inferior), I think it gets taken too far. Just because an INTJ aspires to Se pleasures and pursuits does not mean that his thoughts and endeavours are primarily oriented towards those ends. All it means is that the Se represents a sweet spot that pulls him.
He never ceases to be anything other than an INTJ, therefore that 'magical' inferior will forever be last in the pecking order of his conscious functions. He uses and takes heed of it less than the three functions senior to it. His whole existence is not bent to its service.

If we accept this, then it leads on perhaps to a recognition that in seeking to answer our question, we must first and foremost be comparing dominant functions. Whatever is going on lower down the stack, it can only be a tie-breaker. If the dominant function of an ESFP is more independent (according to our definition) than those of others, then the ESFP must be the type with the greatest bias away from external reality.

 

[OmoInisa]

Ni/Si and Ti/Fi are all independent functions but once you combine them with their auxiliary functions for the dominant users(IJ's,IP's), you can see how IP's especially INP's are more independent than IJ's as Ne and Se aren't directly concerned with external systems(Fe,Te) but rather external information-concrete(Se) or abstract(Ne). Ultimately external systems rely on dependency for cohesion, while the external world is full of raw data to be observed independently. So Ti and Fi are the most independent functions and when combined with Ne they are more independent than Se, making INFPs and INTPs the most independent types. Whether INFP's are more independent compared to INTP's is a question of whether the Ti/Fe axis is more independent than Fi/Te. I would say this depends on the context of the environment. A INFP might feel more independent if a Te system is in place while the INTP if their Fe can be fulfilled from being around others.

Some very interesting points here. I agree that the extroverted perceiving functions aren't 'directly concerned' with external systems but with external information, and so the extroverted judging can be said to deal more strongly with external reality.
It's also true that Ne's abstract nature makes it less interested in externals that Se.
Your last sentence is also pretty fascinating. It's not one I've considered before.

However, I don't actually think we need tie ourselves into this many knots to get to the bottom of the issue. Going this far neglects the more fundamental determinant.
If we can agree that Ji causes a greater bias away from externals than Pi, then that must mean that Ji dominance leads to a greater bias away from externals than Pi dominance. The dominant is the fundamental mode of being of the type.
The auxiliary then comes into play in deciding between two types with the same dominant. So before anything else, we must determine which single function is the most independent.

A shorthand that I find useful in justifying the hierarchy of independence from externals is as follows:

J > P
F > T
I > E
N > S

*Note that it's not actually relevant to attempt to construct a more complex hierarchy that a simple comparison with each dichotomy, since we're only concerned in the first instance with the dominant.

I'm predicting the F > T is the one that people are most likely to contest. But something extraordinary has happened. When I opened this thread, I had the view that the INTP was the most independent according to this definition. I'm now leaning towards INFP.

 

[Reluctantly]

OmoInisa, you've actually derailed your own thread. ;P It was originally about which type is independent from other people, not external reality. Though I guess you don't care.

People seem to be neglecting any mention of inferior Fe. All the independent theorizing in the world doesn't matter to an INTP if the findings can't be shared.

I did mention it, although briefly -

...
So I'd say Si perhaps (if other people or civilization don't give a positive sensory impression on the Si individual), since I think Ti and Ni get some sort of inherent intellectual satisfaction from people, whether good or bad, for Ti being Fe and for Ni, it's probably the Se experience of different people​

INTJ Te uses external systems but isn't necessarily dependent. Inferior Se motivation for success is the accrual of material comfort, not approval. Hence the INTJ mad scientist stereotype.

But Te does have Fi, which relates to people in ways.

Dude seems like an INFP. Si doms-ISJs are independent people but rely on people or systems for daily functioning. They aren't the types to go against the grain and become a hermit so to speak, unless forced by consequences. It's not that they wouldn't be good at it, but they are duty oriented people at end of day. The INFP is the quintessential "Into the wild" idealist type. The INTP is the "lighthouse keeper" type that connects with people when necessary or to report and share their findings to others after all the contemplation that has taken place.

There's discrepancies between Jung's psychological types, which describe 8 functions, and MBTI's types. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone typed Si in Jung's psychological types as relying on people or systems for daily functioning. This is why I preferred not to use types in this discussion. So I both agree and disagree with you, if that makes sense.

Daym, Im so angry about the title I need to kick punch sum ppl

I cant even read the thread yo

You should burn the forum server. I bet BAP knows where it is.

We can make a clearer case by distinguishing how each function operates in reality. Using the epistemological justifications of a priori knowledge and a posteriori, we can can correlate introverted functions as being similar to a priori and extroverted functions as a posteriori. INJs might come to an essence of an idea or form by using Ni alone. This is done without relying on the external, but of course in a subjective manner. Introverted functions are necessarily more independent than extroverted functions as they function independently from experience(external).

Well, technically introverted functions function more independently from the external, but they aren't completely removed from it. Introverted functions do internalize the external, making them dependent on the external for creating subjectivity. Because if there's not first an objective reality from which a subjective reality can be created, you wouldn't even have a foundation for what was subjective or objective to begin with.

Ni/Si and Ti/Fi are all independent functions but once you combine them with their auxiliary functions for the dominant users(IJ's,IP's), you can see how IP's especially INP's are more independent than IJ's as Ne and Se aren't directly concerned with external systems(Fe,Te) but rather external information-concrete(Se) or abstract(Ne). Ultimately external systems rely on dependency for cohesion, while the external world is full of raw data to be observed independently. So Ti and Fi are the most independent functions and when combined with Ne they are more independent than Se, making INFPs and INTPs the most independent types. Whether INFP's are more independent compared to INTP's is a question of whether the Ti/Fe axis is more independent than Fi/Te. I would say this depends on the context of the environment. A INFP might feel more independent if a Te system is in place while the INTP if their Fe can be fulfilled from being around others.

I can understand a Te type wanting to implement a system, therefore making it external, but out of curiosity, how do you see it that Fe is related to external systems? Because Fe conceptually relates to the more immediate emotional aspects outside of the self in the surrounding environment and interjects to control or manipulate those emotions, to affect them, which doesn't correlate well with externalizing systems.

 

[OmoInisa]

OmoInisa, you've actually derailed your own thread. ;P It was originally about which type is independent from other people, not external reality. Though I guess you don't care.

Eh? Unless I have a doppelganger running around somewhere on here with an alternate reality version of the thread , I do recall expressly stating that I wasn't considering needing or not needing people. We're interested purely in a bias away from external reality.

I can understand a Te type wanting to implement a system, therefore making it external, but out of curiosity, how do you see it that Fe is related to external systems? Because Fe conceptually relates to the more immediate emotional aspects outside of the self in the surrounding environment and interjects to control or manipulate those emotions, to affect them, which doesn't correlate well with externalizing systems.

This is a good point, and it perhaps lends support to my idea of F > T.
To put some more flesh on its bones, maybe we could say that Te is a harder function than Fe, and so it seeks to interact more directly and concretely with the world than Fe. Similarly then, we might say that Ti is harder than Fi, and so it seeks to interact more directly and forcefully with its architecture of concepts than Fi. And if we then take your earlier point about the introverted judging functions pulling information from their extroverted auxiliary, it may well follow that Ti has a shorter and straighter path to external reality than Fi.

 

[Reluctantly]

Eh? Unless I have a doppelganger running around somewhere on here with an alternate reality version of the thread , I do recall expressly stating that I wasn't considering needing or not needing people. We're interested purely in a bias away from external reality.

Oops. I blame AnimeKitty, lol.

This is a good point, and it perhaps lends support to my idea of F > T.
To put some more flesh on its bones, maybe we could say that Te is a harder function than Fe, and so it seeks to interact more directly and concretely with the world than Fe. Similarly then, we might say that Ti is harder than Fi, and so it seeks to interact more directly and forcefully with its architecture of concepts than Fi. And if we then take your earlier point about the introverted judging functions pulling information from their extroverted auxiliary, it may well follow that Ti has a shorter and straighter path to external reality than Fi.

This reminds me of something. I don't remember where I read it, but someone suggested that N and F were more abstract, whereas S and T were more concrete. So Fe can be abstract and yet have a focus on being objective. It's interesting then because you could argue that Fi is both subjective and abstract, making it doubly removed from external reality. But then the same could be said about Ni. So I guess someone could argue that Ni-Fe and Fi-Ne have three layers of abstraction plus introversion (so 4), while all the other combinations are 3 or less.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I could be INTP and I am independent to the point of not caring whether my independence is in any way recognised by the independence projecting and mongering MBTI types and other kitties.

Independence matters in reality/application, not in hypothesis. Where are studies, raw data, statistics, comparisons.

 

[OmoInisa]

I could be INTP and I am independent to the point of not caring whether my independence is in any way recognised by the independence projecting and mongering MBTI types and other kitties.

Independence matters in reality/application, not in hypothesis. Where are studies, raw data, statistics, comparisons.

Then you are probably to be congratulated. It would seem as if whatever mode of independence you have in mind is one you cherish being associated with. I wouldn't want to interfere with it.

However we are here discussing the question of what makes a type tend towards a bias away from external reality. And purely in the spirit of disinterested inquiry.

 

[Analyzer]

I can understand a Te type wanting to implement a system, therefore making it external, but out of curiosity, how do you see it that Fe is related to external systems? Because Fe conceptually relates to the more immediate emotional aspects outside of the self in the surrounding environment and interjects to control or manipulate those emotions, to affect them, which doesn't correlate well with externalizing systems.

Ethics is a Fe system. Political philosophy and any other form of social order has used different ethics for its justifications. Regardless of it's merits or validity, an argument can be made about the universalizability of ethical systems that humans follow such as the Golden Rule, categorical imperative, natural laws and so forth. While these systems are not as static or certain, they are implemented and followed.

 

[Analyzer]

A shorthand that I find useful in justifying the hierarchy of independence from externals is as follows:

J > P
F > T
I > E
N > S

*Note that it's not actually relevant to attempt to construct a more complex hierarchy that a simple comparison with each dichotomy, since we're only concerned in the first instance with the dominant.

I'm predicting the F > T is the one that people are most likely to contest. But something extraordinary has happened. When I opened this thread, I had the view that the INTP was the most independent according to this definition. I'm now leaning towards INFP.

Yeah I think that INFPs are the most independent people in general. I would have to say regarding which is more independent function - F>T is true. Fe/Fi are more abstracted judgements as they deal with like you said harder or more 'certain' truths. Te/Ti process the logic of information or anatomy of thought if you will. The F functions are more in tune with the value driven elements which are harder to grasp or interpret.

Order of most independent to least:

INFP
INTP
INFJ
INTJ
ISFP
ISTP
ISFJ
ISTJ
ENFP
ENTP
ENFJ
ENTJ
ESFP
ESTP
ESFJ
ESTJ

If you noticed on this list each correlates with each others opposite personality in terms of functions - ESTJ/INFP, ENTJ/ISFP.

 

[Architect]

Order of most independent to least:
INFP
INTP
...

Are you sure?

With Introverted Feeling (Fi) as their dominant function, INFPs’ (and ISFPs’) emotions are deep, intense, and personal. This contributes a deep sense of attachment and loyalty, even jealousy, toward the objects of their affection. INFPs empathize with and form attachments to those that affect their own emotions (Fi), such as their own pets, children, or the victims of an act of injustice.

One public example - Mia Farrow, a highly probable INFP. Consider the weird attachment and how crazy she got with Woody Allen after they broke up.

Nobody with F (Fi or Fe) that high in their stack can be that independent. Likewise for INFJ's.

 

[Absurdity]

However let's bear in mind that the focus here is on 'bias away from external reality'

That is a bizarre definition of independence to me.

 

[StevenM]

That is a bizarre definition of independence to me.

I found it bizarre as well. If we didn't collaborate with external reality, we would more likely be psychotic, than independent.

I like these definitions from the dictionary:

-free from outside control; not depending on another's authority.
-not influenced or affected by others; impartial.
-not depending on another for livelihood or subsistence.

And because nobody can acheive those definitions in totality, then a level of independence would describe the degree, quantity, or purity a person could resemble that characteristic.

 

[OmoInisa]

I found it bizarre as well. If we didn't collaborate with external reality, we would more likely be psychotic, than independent.

I'm inclined to agree with the objections. I did mention that the framing was intended to cause a little bit of controversy. That having been conceded, is that second dictionary definition not close enough?

In any event, I still contend that it is legitimate and interesting to consider a bias away from interaction with reality. The weirdo that you malign as psychotic, I perhaps see as the reclusive mystic of old.

 

[Analyzer]

Are you sure?



One public example - Mia Farrow, a highly probable INFP. Consider the weird attachment and how crazy she got with Woody Allen after they broke up.

Nobody with F (Fi or Fe) that high in their stack can be that independent. Likewise for INFJ's.

How would you define independence as far as type is concerned? Do you think as a function, T is more independent than F?

 

[Reluctantly]

Ethics is a Fe system. Political philosophy and any other form of social order has used different ethics for its justifications. Regardless of it's merits or validity, an argument can be made about the universalizability of ethical systems that humans follow such as the Golden Rule, categorical imperative, natural laws and so forth. While these systems are not as static or certain, they are implemented and followed.

Interesting.

 

[OmoInisa]

This reminds me of something. I don't remember where I read it, but someone suggested that N and F were more abstract, whereas S and T were more concrete. So Fe can be abstract and yet have a focus on being objective. It's interesting then because you could argue that Fi is both subjective and abstract, making it doubly removed from external reality. But then the same could be said about Ni. So I guess someone could argue that Ni-Fe and Fi-Ne have three layers of abstraction plus introversion (so 4), while all the other combinations are 3 or less.

Interesting. I agree for the most part. I would disagree on the idea of all other combinations having 3 or less. The reason is that I would argue for Ti being abstract as well. Despite being the harder of the two forms of judgment, its inward orientation actually makes it especially uninterested in the outside (because of its hardness). Furthermore, it demands information more aggressively from its abstract auxiliary than Fi would, which perhaps heightens the abstraction. So Ti is closer and more integrated with its auxiliary than Fi is with its own.

Also, a related notion I hold is that, of the four functions (T,F,S,N), T has the greatest contrast between its two orientations. And it follows that N, the 'softest', most abstract of the four, has the least contrast between its two orientations. Despite being 'extroverted', Ne is indeed concerned with the inner world beyond the world of sense. Since the inferior is Fe (the 'softer' of the two form of judgement), this quite possibly makes INTPs the most abstract of the types.
So clearly I have now come full circle and returned to my initial position.

You could say INTPs drew the shortest straw in life (not that they care that much). They may require the greatest degree of intentionality in order to function in the physical world.

 

[Reluctantly]

Interesting. I agree for the most part. I would disagree on the idea of all other combinations having 3 or less. The reason is that I would argue for Ti being abstract as well. Despite being the harder of the two forms of judgment, its inward orientation actually makes it especially uninterested in the outside (because of its hardness). Furthermore, it demands information more aggressively from its abstract auxiliary than Fi would, which perhaps heightens the abstraction. So Ti is closer and more integrated with its auxiliary than Fi is with its own.

I don't disagree, but Ti can be made explicit. Fi can't really. Well it can, but then it loses some of its meaning. For example, if an Fi type gets a certain emotional vibe about someone based on that person's history and how they interact with the Fi user, they might decide to change how they interact with that person, perhaps closing off a bit emotionally to them or just changing their mode of interaction with that person from a feeling of informal friendliness to a more formal neutral feeling in how they communicate. If asked why the Fi user is this way or why they feel it is justified to act that way, there won't be a direct answer because there was no clear logical principles followed, but instead a very abstract reasoning process that evaluated that other person's character in relation to how it affected the Fi user. And degrading that process by labeling it as simple emotions and crossing values kind of misses this point. I suppose to a Ti type it might be best to understand the behavior as an adherence to values, but then at the same time these values are then going to be relative to the Fi user's thought process and not absolutes, making the association somewhat sketch. And nor are the Fi user's values then going to be strict judgements in the sense of a Ti user compartmentalizing someone's behavior or character and then making that explicitly known as a justification or explanation.

Also, a related notion I hold is that, of the four functions (T,F,S,N), T has the greatest contrast between its two orientations. And it follows that N, the 'softest', most abstract of the four, has the least contrast between its two orientations. Despite being 'extroverted', Ne is indeed concerned with the inner world beyond the world of sense. Since the inferior is Fe (the 'softer' of the two form of judgement), this quite possibly makes INTPs the most abstract of the types.
So clearly I have now come full circle and returned to my initial position.

I think it depends on whether the function is dominant or auxiliary. Ti-Ne is probably going to see more of a disparity between Ti and Te because thinking is their first function and they are introverted. It's more personal to them then Ne is and is essentially the strongest part of their personality.