INTP-INTJ Business Interactions

[boradicus]

I had someone discuss with me today his belief about how an INTP can interact with an INTJ..

He said initially that because INTPs tend to want their own personal space free from micromanaged control, that they are in essence the opposite of INTJs and the INTJ quest for over-arching control, but that they could be perceived to have the same motivations despite these differences in personality. In response, attempting to better understand his perspective, I repeated back to him what he said, paraphrasing his concepts as being that the INTP is always on the retreating end of the ever control-of-domain encroaching INTJ, to which he responded that INTPs could simply tell INTJs what their domains of control were supposed to be.

All of this was supposed to be in the context of a friendly business model, which at first may seem vaguely workable - as it did to me initially - however, on my drive home, having time finally to ruminate over the discourse, it became apparent to me that this was a fallacious wool over the eyes approach to make the poor INTP in question gullibly comfortable with the idea that he can actually find a situation in which he is not going to be attacked by the INTJs of this world - commercial setting or not.

This "business consultant" claimed that INTJs were empire builders, and that INTPs were strategists - but such being the case (if in fact such grand assumptions can even be made - of which I am the opinion that they can not at all! - being that the MBTI is aught but pseudo-science except where the person classified by the MBTI classifies themselves and not another person! --see my other posts regarding this position and how it applies accurately to Jung's theorems), A) an INTP would not gravitate toward the over-arching control of the INTJ, B) an INTJ would not in the least listen to an INTP regarding the specific domain of influence suggested to him being that his desired domain of influence is total (by what the "business consultant" had to say), and C) an INTP would not in the least be interested in "organizing" INTJs as this "business consultant" claimed to be doing with his business (having proclaimed the he himself was an INTP - which I certainly cannot affirm, disbelieving external attempts to profile someone's personality as being aught but pseudo-science and mere speculation).

Such a business, according to the characterizations provided by this particular "business consultant" would be immediately and necessarily doomed to not merely failure - but complete, utter, and abject failure.

This is - once again - the failure and injustice of profiling: for on one hand, people are viewed as being doomed to either success or failure based on the subjective interpretation of their personality types, while on the other hand their personality types are assessed in a forensic (meaning in this specific context - specific to personality assessment - externally evaluated) manner - which is in and of itself mere pseudo-science according to Jung's theory as was proved in my earlier statements here on the INTP Forum.

I shared with this man that I had had a friend whose personality was completely opposite to mine according to MBTI evaluation and my assessment of my friend's personality. However, I am certain that I expressed that A) my friend was "probably an ESFJ personality type," rather than making the assertion that he actually *was* such a personality type, and additionally (although I failed to express this in this conversation) I had asked my friend his own perceptions about his behavior, how he saw things, made decisions, etc, and if he thought that he might conform to the description of what I had presented to him.

While even such typing is tentative at best, it is necessarily consensual (and in full knowledge of that consensuality and all that pertains to it - e.g. getting someone to agree out of context to various interpretively dualistic descriptors on an individual basis and then taking such minor agreements and attempting to compound them into a personality profile is both inaccurate as well as at best unethical). But even if a person who believed himself to be an INTP and a person who believe himself to be an INTJ were to do business such as was proposed by the "business consultant" mentioned above, such a business would most likely tend to be structured by ideas of the INTJ - and not those of the INTP, for whom everything is attendantly subordinated to the learning process, and for whom interest is ephemeral as far as application is concerned - once discovered and tested is enough for an INTP, at which point he or she moves readily to the next problem to be solved or thing to discover.

More likely, an INTJ would see the value inherent in the theoretical aptitudes of the INTP and attempt to harness those abilities for his or herself. This is ever the problem for the INTP, being that the INTP does NOT desire to be manipulated by anybody, but instead prefers a stable existence in which he/she may excel in learning and the pursuit of such artistic endeavor that is in confluence with the theoretical interests of the particular INTP.

Here, stability simply means the freedom from manipulation and the unpredictable *personal capsizes* which occur due to its invasive influence. Point-in-fact, I was capsized today by the intrusion of the conversation which occurred with this person; the man made it very uncomfortable for me in that he initiated a hostile conversation through incipient smalltalk that progressed several unwanted layers deep as a result of A) the need to resolve the initial trauma incurred by the invasive attack, and B) the ease with which I am victimized by such perpetrators because of the damage to (and resulting virtual now non-existence of) all the important relationships in my life (which is another matter in itself, yet partly consequential to being an INTP myself and the need for authenticity which has become a rare if not impossible commodity).

Once again, a certain type of person injects themselves into my life, choosing to leap over objective criteria, irrationally pursuing the subjective. They brutally push causality aside to make way for the neolithic barbarity of vainglory and the self-satisfaction obtained by the management of appearance rather than the humble pursuit of the elucidation of facts.

Simply put, INTPs can be visionary - not that everyone is - and in the words of this "business consultant," INTPs can 'see the future.' My mere potential for such 'future-sightedness' puts me at risk, whether choosing to open my mouth or keep my lips sealed, there will always be those who attack me due to their fear of what I 'supposedly' may 'see' - be it something about themselves, or something about growing trends, or future occurrences. With such a stigma, is it any wonder that we are such frequent targets - not free to pursue some livelihood other than as the protected asset of another?

I can scarcely have a single insight without these sorts of people prying into my life to see what it may be.

 

[Trebuchet]

I don't know where this idea comes from about INTJs being so domineering. They can look domineering when they try to be precise in stating expectations and promises. They don't like to leave loose ends or leave things up to chance. So maybe this makes them seem like control freaks. In reality, they are just very deliberate in their choices, and get their backs up if someone doesn't follow through as promised, or at least keep them informed of potential problems.

Certainly INTJs can sound insistent if something doesn't sound right to them, and maybe that is where their control-freak reputation comes from. But real control freaks want to be called "sir" and insist that the staple be parallel with the page. I've never seen an INTJ take any interest in such micromanaging just for fun. They do it because they don't want things to get out of control without them knowing it in time to fix things. That's why they have a plan B, after all.

INTJs and INTPs aren't the same, but we speak close to the same language. Both quote sources and state their confidence levels, promise only what they can deliver, and try to be clear about assumptions. Neither type tends to be glad-handing, manipulative, dishonest snake oil salesmen. Of course they can be that, anyone can, but not usually. So the two types, if both are honest and informed, have a very good chance of successfully doing business. Indeed, I have seen such pairings work out very well.

So the problems aren't from the MBTI types. Problems would arise if either or both of them is a jerk, or a liar, or impossibly stubborn, or just woefully misinformed about something. If one is much more of an expert in their mutual domain than the other, the imbalance could cause a problem. If one of them has more experience in business than the other, the less experienced one will not fare as well. If they have fundamental assumptions that don't match, and they don't find out about it, they will talk past each other. That is true of anyone, though.

Yes, the INTJ will attempt to control the situation, but in this case "control" doesn't necessarily mean being domineering. It means that anything that looks out of control should be brought under control, whether that means a process, emotions, a crowd, a time frame, a budget, a contract, or whatever. The INTJ "wins" when things are profitable, clearly understood, and signed.

Furthermore, an INTP doesn't have to have an "ephemeral" interest in something, or be unable to state their principles, intentions, and plans to the INTJ. We can make things work out the way we want, and need not be victims. As for seeing the future, or being visionaries, to the extent that this is true, hardly anyone in business wants to hear our ideas anyway. Most people won't see an INTP's value at all, and will be dismissive, stifling, and even condescending when we try to share our thoughts. An INTP has to work pretty hard to be taken seriously in business at all, and INTJs are the least of the predators out there.

Finally, most people get jobs where they are the protected assets of another, not just INTPs. But we INTPs are certainly free to pursue whatever livelihood we want, within the constraints of what we can achieve. There are successful INTP entrepreneurs out there.

 

[TheHmmmm]

I don't know where this idea comes from about INTJs being so domineering. They can look domineering when they try to be precise in stating expectations and promises. They don't like to leave loose ends or leave things up to chance. So maybe this makes them seem like control freaks. In reality, they are just very deliberate in their choices, and get their backs up if someone doesn't follow through as promised, or at least keep them informed of potential problems.

Certainly INTJs can sound insistent if something doesn't sound right to them, and maybe that is where their control-freak reputation comes from. But real control freaks want to be called "sir" and insist that the staple be parallel with the page. I've never seen an INTJ take any interest in such micromanaging just for fun. They do it because they don't want things to get out of control without them knowing it in time to fix things. That's why they have a plan B, after all.

INTJs and INTPs aren't the same, but we speak close to the same language. Both quote sources and state their confidence levels, promise only what they can deliver, and try to be clear about assumptions. Neither type tends to be glad-handing, manipulative, dishonest snake oil salesmen. Of course they can be that, anyone can, but not usually. So the two types, if both are honest and informed, have a very good chance of successfully doing business. Indeed, I have seen such pairings work out very well.

So the problems aren't from the MBTI types. Problems would arise if either or both of them is a jerk, or a liar, or impossibly stubborn, or just woefully misinformed about something. If one is much more of an expert in their mutual domain than the other, the imbalance could cause a problem. If one of them has more experience in business than the other, the less experienced one will not fare as well. If they have fundamental assumptions that don't match, and they don't find out about it, they will talk past each other. That is true of anyone, though.

Yes, the INTJ will attempt to control the situation, but in this case "control" doesn't necessarily mean being domineering. It means that anything that looks out of control should be brought under control, whether that means a process, emotions, a crowd, a time frame, a budget, a contract, or whatever. The INTJ "wins" when things are profitable, clearly understood, and signed.

Furthermore, an INTP doesn't have to have an "ephemeral" interest in something, or be unable to state their principles, intentions, and plans to the INTJ. We can make things work out the way we want, and need not be victims. As for seeing the future, or being visionaries, to the extent that this is true, hardly anyone in business wants to hear our ideas anyway. Most people won't see an INTP's value at all, and will be dismissive, stifling, and even condescending when we try to share our thoughts. An INTP has to work pretty hard to be taken seriously in business at all, and INTJs are the least of the predators out there.

Finally, most people get jobs where they are the protected assets of another, not just INTPs. But we INTPs are certainly free to pursue whatever livelihood we want, within the constraints of what we can achieve. There are successful INTP entrepreneurs out there.

Awwwn, someone DOES understand us!

No, seriously. You wanna see controlling, talk to an ISXJ. They'll show you controlling.

 

[gruesomebrat]

Finally, most people get jobs where they are the protected assets of another, not just INTPs. But we INTPs are certainly free to pursue whatever livelihood we want, within the constraints of what we can achieve. There are successful INTP entrepreneurs out there.

I would think, from what I've seen here on the forum, that INTPs would be more likely to be in the service industry though. Accounting, law, and medicine are all professions in which we can start on one track, learn all we can about it, and move to the next client that piques our interest. I can't really see an INTP flourishing as an entrepreneur in, for example, manufacturing. The whole concept of mass production manufacturing requires that you not change focus, which would be incredibly difficult (or I know it would be for me).

Trebuchet, did you have any specific examples in mind? Successful entrepreneurs who you suspect are INTP?

 

[boradicus]

Trebuchet:

"As for seeing the future, or being visionaries, to the extent that this is true, hardly anyone in business wants to hear our ideas anyway. Most people won't see an INTP's value at all, and will be dismissive, stifling, and even condescending when we try to share our thoughts. An INTP has to work pretty hard to be taken seriously in business at all..."

Wow - that is for real. Yeah, I have experienced exactly that - worse even. Sorry about the seeming INTJ invective - that was not meant to be taken that way (to any intjs out there!) I was more attempting to use the descriptions given by this guy to show what he should have said rather than what he did say according to 'his' definitions of people's personality types. I hate profiling. It is absolute nonsense and a weapon that should be removed from legal usage.


Brat:

I tend to agree - but there are types of manufacturing businesses where an INTP as an inventor could experiment to his/her heart's content with new innovative designs, etc. For instance, if you were a designer of a cool stainless steel sports car and had people to support the manufacturing side of your infrastructure you could easily earn the jealousy and contempt of corporate motor car companies.... wait did that already happen...? (LOL -J/K) - although I have no idea of that guy's personality. But I can easily see how once having experimented with and created several types of any given product that it would now be time to move ahead to other ventures building on the same experience base, but generalized to fit new ideas for things such as designing other forms of transportation... But I guess design would not really be perhaps the best focus... I tend to get more into the underpinnings of things than their actual implementation. Implementation can earn a dollar or two, but ground-breaking invention and discovery is really the heart of the matter - when that gets lost life is dull - but if you can trick yourself into finding the carrot of some new and unfathomed challenge in what you do then that at least keeps things motivated -

 

[Trebuchet]

I would think, from what I've seen here on the forum, that INTPs would be more likely to be in the service industry though. Accounting, law, and medicine are all professions in which we can start on one track, learn all we can about it, and move to the next client that piques our interest. I can't really see an INTP flourishing as an entrepreneur in, for example, manufacturing. The whole concept of mass production manufacturing requires that you not change focus, which would be incredibly difficult (or I know it would be for me).

Trebuchet, did you have any specific examples in mind? Successful entrepreneurs who you suspect are INTP?

Well, I know my dad is INTP and very much an entrepreneur. I grew up thinking entrepreneur was a normal way for an INTP to behave. (I also grew up knowing we were both INTP.) After years in aerospace, my dad was really tired of being a wage slave. So he ran his own business with great success for many years, though he is retired now. Naturally, he was very good at parts of it, and not so good at others. He hired people to cover any area where he felt he needed help. Once he had a good team in place, things went quite well. My dad is unique in a lot of ways, but surely he can't be the only INTP able to turn his problem-solving analytical skills to running a business.

I think that self-knowledge matters a lot. No one can do everything. INTPs can hire a sales force and administrators and experts in all kinds of things. A secretary to keep track of appointments and bills makes a big difference. Passion makes a difference, too. My dad was doing what he loved. The old adage holds true.

No, I don't know any INTP entrepreneurs in manufacturing. Sorry to get political here, but remember that I live in the USA, so I don't know too many Americans of any type in manufacturing.

Besides, lots of INTPs are self-employed, often as consultants or tutors or free-lance designers, which I think counts as entrepreneurial even if it isn't as impressive as being a CEO.

@boradicus, I got that it was the "consultant" who was saying stuff about INTJs. It was clear to me that you weren't the source, at least when I read your post carefully.

 

[boradicus]

What?? We have plenty of good manufacturing here =)! Some of the best guitars in the world come from the USA ! Compaq - now HP, Ford, Chrysler, Hummers, Intel, and that is off the top of my head...

Anyway - have said my piece and am done for the Year!

Good Morrow and Merry Christmas to You Lot!

 

[nada]

Watch me become an INTP ceo.

 

[FusionKnight]

This is a very interesting topic to me. I am an INTP and my brother (younger by 3 years) is an INTJ; we both identify very strongly with our MBTI types. Though we don't work together at the moment, we have worked on entrepreneurial projects together from time to time, and our interactions have always puzzled me somewhat.

INTPs an INTJs are very different, but as Trebuchet said, we speak a similar language. Generally my brother and I get along very well; we're both intellectual, interested in similar things, and approach problems in an analytical way. However, when working together on a project, or when discussing serious matters there is always a certain tension between us.

As an INTP, I am most interested in adding to my own knowledge, exploring possibilities, and making improvements to existing systems, but my brother wants to "win", accomplish, and impose his ideas on the world. It is the reversal of directionality in the NT attributes (which the J and P indicate) that is really responsible for this difference. The J corresponds to an external T and an internal N, whereas the P means the opposite. My brother wants to shape the world into a rational and logical pattern. I want to explore the "connectedness" of the world and imagine the potential realities.

This difference in expression of the NT type causes a friction between us at times. I get the feeling that he sees me as aloof, unreliable, sloppy (in terms of my physical environment as well as my thought process), and generally not very good at anything. Now it wouldn't be a stretch to say that these perceptions are echoes of my own insecurities (a typical INTP weakness), rather than anything in my brother, but I think it's a combination of both.

He is good at pretty much everything he puts his hand to. He paid his way through college by playing poker, he's managed to turn a profit from a constant string of ebay sales, he's a top-notch starcraft player, good baseball player, guitarist, chemist, worked his way into a top position at the startup he works for, and has recently been accepted to an MBA program. It's actually quite intimidating.

Because my T is in my own head, my own accomplishments are invisible, and an externally oriented N is hard to appreciate for nearly all the other personality types. It doesn't produce results (at least in the INTP), it produced ideas. As I've heard many people in my life say before, "ideas are a dime-a-dozen, it takes real smarts to make something happen". Probably others here have heard the same thing and felt the same discouragement.

I love my brother, and he's great at things I'm not. In many ways I think we'd make a good team. However, I think it's extremely hard for the INTJ to accept the "non-productiveness" and general lack of follow-through that the INTP suffers from.

Some of my thoughts, anyway.

 

[EyeNTP]

The population of this forum should in no way be used as an indicator for successful INTPs that are in business or are entrepreneurs, successfully.

You won't have time to be on here if you are successful, and if you are successful you'll generally want to expand or go ahead and enjoy the financial success your efforts have allowed you.

 

[FusionKnight]

Wow, thanks. Now everybody on the forum is an unsuccessful lazy bum.

 

[EyeNTP]

Wow, thanks. Now everybody on the forum is an unsuccessful lazy bum.

Not exactly but being a successful entrepreneur is a lifestyle more than anything.