INTP / ESFJ relationships

[BrainVessel]

Yes!!, this is exactly what happens after (a couple of weeks of) interacting with an ESFJ, especially the parts in blue.

Additionally, many a female ESFJ I've known tends to significantly underplay the importance of words -- by calling completely ordinary and mundane events, ideas and people perfect, wonderful, beautiful (both bello and hermoso in Spanish), incredible, and the like -- while claiming to be well-read. I experience some sort of primal disgust when this happens, most especially with the word "perfect". *shudders*

I've noticed this too. I think it's part of being unable to emphasize their point without being overdramatic, but I also think that Western culture tends to abuse words as a whole for that very same reason so it seems to just be them conforming(or perhaps ESFJs were the cause of it? hmmm..). Popular social media runs rampant with people throwing words to waste and it's kinda disgusting.
ESFJs seem to be very physical people, I've noticed as well. I believe the primary factor of them annoying me is that we are quite obviously polar opposites and therefore are going to idealize different things. I've always valued intellect and rationality over physical attributes and social status but human beings tend to like what we're good at and ESFJs seem to be particularly good at mastering the ideal social image, they generally hold themselves in a certain way, like they've stared at themselves for hours in the mirror in different postures and angles and decided that one looked best and only present that specific appearance to the world. Myself, not being good at self-image and also not caring, tend to look behind what people are glorified for and I just laugh in the dark corner because pretty much everything they do leads back to the behavior of a barbarian and after trying to make them see it they refuse because they don't admire the traits I have. It's so subjective that it confuses me. I just cannot comprehend their way of living, I guess. Thus, a paradox of misunderstanding and dislike. I'd like to believe I'm on the right side but I cannot possibly empathize with the other side so perhaps I'll never know.

 

[ddspada]

[...] Western culture tends to abuse words as a whole for that very same reason so it seems to just be them conforming(or perhaps ESFJs were the cause of it? hmmm..).

I can see how ESFJs were the initial cause, yes.

I'd like to believe I'm on the right side but I cannot possibly empathize with the other side so perhaps I'll never know.

Yes. It's frustrating. I'd very much enjoy being able to understand what goes on inside an ESFJ brain (it seems so overly dramatic and senselessly square but then again an ESFJ might say something analogous about the INTP brain being cold and inhuman) but I (we?) have to be content with, as you well put it, laughing in a dark corner.

 

[Jennywocky]

...I genuinely want an ESFJ to prove me wrong about their kind, but it has not yet happened.

Here ya go...

... oh wait. sorry, my bad.

 

[Belak]

For the past two years, my next door neighbor and I have gotten significantly closer. I'm an INTP and she is an ESFJ. We have gotten super close and have gotten to know each other really well.

The issue arises when she gets upset with me. I have no ideas as to why. For some reason, she likes to make it a game to hide it from me tantalizingly close but not tell me until I figure it out. Until then, she ignores me to the point where I'm starting to get a little depressed. Then, we start talking again and then we are buddies again, no probs.

She has no idea I like her(I think). And telling her would be extremely difficult because she is one of my few close friends.

I can't tell if I like her and I'm so confused all of the time.

I'm pigeonholed into repeating the process over and over.

If anyone has gone through something similar, what did you do to fix it.
(I might not be right about her personality but I'm close)

 

[TheManBeyond]

You could try to touch her as "friends", you know the typical hand game stuff. If you see some ankward reaction in her face then you are not likely of her taste (i know, takes focus to see those signs for those with inferior feeling). Do some easy jokes like uhh two in the pink one in the stink xDDD, hand sign, etc, i know this might be too much but it's almost impossible that she will break your friendship for such a little incident, try it, it should work if there's love, specially for her since she's supossedly an ESFJ.
Of course this must be difficult for you beeing such a nerdy intp guy.

 

[Belak]

Her reaction usually vary with her moods, like sometimes I can lean up against her with no reaction. And other times she is completely ignoring me.

I tell perverted jokes all the time and she doesn't care much.

How do I tell her I like her?

 

[BrainVessel]

How do I tell her I like her?

Just do it. No better time than the present. There is no way to make this statement and absolutely get the reaction you want. She's going to like you back, or she's not. Why not figure out now? If you're sure you like her and you want to know her thoughts, just ask. Do it casually, it's not a big deal. The nervousness and potential friendship-ruining of it is a fake complex made up by society. You either like each other and you want to pursue something or it's not mutual and you can continue being friends. Just make sure that if she doesn't like you back in that way to drop the subject, if she changes her mind she should let you know but do not pry or assume afterwards.

Basically, don't be awkward because there is no need.

 

[ae1905]

Well my bf is a esfj . My complete opposite ! I've been with him for over two years . When we both started to truly understand the other and compromise and learn how eachother work the relationship payed off . We are ying and yan , what he sees I miss and what I see he misses. We are a force to be reckoned with . What we do have in common are principles , so we usually start from there and are concious of our differences . Its sounds corny but we complete eachother . Hope that helped sorry for the rant

Do these principles arise from your shared functions or from other sources, like family, education, religion, etc? You both share the same perceiving functions, both working at about the same strengths (aux and tert). Do you think this is a source of strength in the relationship? Does it help you see eye-to-eye? And you also share the same judging functions but in opposite positions. Do you see this as a source of conflict? Is it this that creates the greatest misunderstandings? In other words, can you relate your experiences to the MBTI functions so we can better judge how such a pairing might work in general and maybe also for ourselves in particular?

 

[ae1905]

SJs are relatively stable and therefore good for marriage and children. If you don't want kids or marriage, then they are generally not the best choices for INTPs. Other N-types offer more stimulation, and better companionship and compatibility.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

According to socionics the ESFJ is our dual, best relationship match. I just don't see how it is, in my experience there's just conflicting points of view all the time... Anyone can make sense of it all?

Not ESFJ but ESFP. And ESFPs are very funny companions.

ESFJs are terrible, my mother is one of them. She's Fe is sometimes fine, because she take care of me in the ways, I couldn't care of myself. ESFJs also deal good with people so it's attractive by INTP. But generally, this relationship is one big fail. Avoid deeper ones.

Our Duals are ESFPs, and I have dated one. Relatioship goes smoothly and isn't boring. Only sometimes can be exhausting, if you don't moderate it. ESFPs have great ability to motivate INTP what is the most useful for the most laziest type.

I have two sisters, INFJ and ESFP. When I have deeper relationship with INFJ (which is the result of she) I prefer ESFP, because she gives me more energy and fun. But forget about watching films with ESFPs, they hate sci-fi ...

 

[ae1905]

Not ESFJ but ESFP. And ESFPs are very funny companions.

ESFJs are terrible, my mother is one of them. She's Fe is sometimes fine, because she take care of me in the ways, I couldn't care of myself. ESFJs also deal good with people so it's attractive by INTP. But generally, this relationship is one big fail. Avoid deeper ones.

Our Duals are ESFPs, and I have dated one. Relatioship goes smoothly and isn't boring. Only sometimes can be exhausting, if you don't moderate it. ESFPs have great ability to motivate INTP what is the most useful for the most laziest type.

I have two sisters, INFJ and ESFP. When I have deeper relationship with INFJ (which is the result of she) I prefer ESFP, because she gives me more energy and fun. But forget about watching films with ESFPs, they hate sci-fi ...

You may be confusing MBTI INTP with socionics INTp which is actually the MBTI INTJ whose dual is ESFP. MBTI INTP's dual is ESFJ. The thing you have to remember with duals and MBTI in general is that the types and their relations are described in their healthy, high-functioning states. In real life, most people fall short of these ideals--for example, because of maturity or some disorder--and therefore their relations will not work quite as well as the theory might prescribe. Also, personality type is just one factor that determines how well two people might get along; other factors--like family, education, age, culture, religious beliefs, etc--also play a part.

I suspect a healthy, mature ESFJ can have a lot to offer to a healthy, mature INTP.

 

[Saoshyant]

You may be confusing MBTI INTP with socionics INTp which is actually the MBTI INTJ whose dual is ESFP. MBTI INTP's dual is ESFJ..

There's a lot of confusion about this. I am not sure who created the J/P switch for MBTI to Socionics. I think Socionics would make a lot more sense if people would ignore it though.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

You may be confusing MBTI INTP with socionics INTp which is actually the MBTI INTJ whose dual is ESFP. MBTI INTP's dual is ESFJ. The thing you have to remember with duals and MBTI in general is that the types and their relations are described in their healthy, high-functioning states. In real life, most people fall short of these ideals--for example, because of maturity or some disorder--and therefore their relations will not work quite as well as the theory might prescribe. Also, personality type is just one factor that determines how well two people might get along; other factors--like family, education, age, culture, religious beliefs, etc--also play a part.

I suspect a healthy, mature ESFJ can have a lot to offer to a healthy, mature INTP.

no, you're wrong. I first met socionics, then MBTI and I'm ILI (INTp). You may not understand socionics, because extroversion and introversion differs from Jung definition, so functions also differs from MBTI functions. Learn this and we can talk more.

 

[OmoInisa]

There's a lot of confusion about this. I am not sure who created the J/P switch for MBTI to Socionics. I think Socionics would make a lot more sense if people would ignore it though.

I wouldn't say it was 'created' by anyone. It simply follows from an examination of the function stacks of the types, and also from the fact that the j stands for dominant judging and the p for for dominant perceiving.

no, you're wrong. I first met socionics, then MBTI and I'm ILI (INTp). You may not understand socionics, because extroversion and introversion differs from Jung definition, so functions also differs from MBTI functions. Learn this and we can talk more.

Actualy, I believe ae1905's is more correct. While the function definitions differ a bit from the MBTI definitions, they're not so different that a TiNe in MBTI would turn into an NiTe in Socionics. Even if one were to reject the J/P switch, the most that could credibly be said would be that an MBTI INTP would not necessarily be an INTj in Socionics. Some MBTI INTPs may well be INTps in Socionics (or ENTps, or even ENTjs). To go all the way and say that the MBTI INTP maps to the Socionics INTp would be absurd.

As an aside, my personal view is that the reason the Socionics function definitions deviate at all from the MBTI definitions is that Augusta and her disciples were attempting to massage them to make her duality ideology work.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Even if one were to reject the J/P switch, the most that could credibly be said would be that an MBTI INTP would not necessarily be an INTj in Socionics. Some MBTI INTPs may well be INTps in Socionics (or ENTps, or even ENTjs). To go all the way and say that the MBTI INTP maps to the Socionics INTp would be absurd.

Agreed. Since it's a different system one should start from scratch.

As an aside, my personal view is that the reason the Socionics function definitions deviate at all from the MBTI definitions is that Augusta and her disciples were attempting to massage them to make her duality ideology work.

This is only half true. Sure Augusta deviated from Jung in her pursuit to develop what she thought was missing in Jungian typolgy, just as much as Isabel Myers deviated from Jung in developing the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

However the critical reason why Socionics definitions are different from MBTI is because Socionics was an attempt to correct Jung not replace him, thus his original four dichotomies as proposed are intact, with judging and perceiving respectively determining Rational and Irrational types. Socionics theory also delves deeper into psychology, psychiatry and cognition whereas MBTI remains more of a theory focused on surface behavior.

 

[OmoInisa]

However the critical reason why Socionics definitions are different from MBTI is because Socionics was an attempt to correct Jung not replace him, thus his original four dichotomies as proposed are intact, with judging and perceiving respectively determining Rational and Irrational types. Socionics theory also delves deeper into psychology, psychiatry and cognition whereas MBTI remains more of a theory focused on surface behavior.

I don't disagree. However I do wonder whether the function definitions were pure cause and the duality concept pure effect.

 

[ae1905]

no, you're wrong. I first met socionics, then MBTI and I'm ILI (INTp). You may not understand socionics, because extroversion and introversion differs from Jung definition, so functions also differs from MBTI functions. Learn this and we can talk more.

This is a MBTI subforum so when you write "INTP" it means socionics LII, not ILI or the MBTI INTJ. To avoid this confusion, socionics even designates ILI as INTp, not INTP. As usual, the INTJ is more than a little confused.

 

[ae1905]

There's a lot of confusion about this. I am not sure who created the J/P switch for MBTI to Socionics. I think Socionics would make a lot more sense if people would ignore it though.

Socionics uses a different lettering scheme and their four-letter MBTI equivalents are alternative labels devised, I suspect, to make socionics more readily recognizable to people already familiar with the established system. In MBTI, judging and perceiving are considered one of the four basic dichotimes; this is why J and P are used in its lettering scheme. In socionics, judging and perceiving are not a basic dichotomy but a derived dichotomy. Instead, it uses rational and irrational as a basic dichotomy (along with the same three used in MBTI--I-E, T-F, N-S) designated by j and p, respectively. One result of this alternative choice of dichotomies is that the j and p are switched for introverts when translating between the two systems. I don't think this switch motivated the choice of dichotomy; rather, the choice of dichotomy simply dictated the switch as a necessary consequence. So I wouldn't read anything into it, such as some connection with the idea of duality.

 

[dal233]

INTP here (29) and have been dating an ESFJ (26) for about 6-7 months. I sometimes lean xNTP/xNxP and she sometimes leans ESxJ. I am very happy with our relationship thus far. It takes a lot of courage and humility to date a Myers-Briggs opposite, and the value comes when you are both able to step back and communicate to each other as equals with different skill sets you bring to a relationship.

Some comments/observations*:

- I never really know what she's thinking, but I always feel like she cares and wants to make me feel comfortable... which on the whole, I find fucking hot. This is because it forces us to connect on the fundamentals of our relationship, which brings out our obvious attraction to each other. Our communication is very strong, and I'm constantly learning from her because we approach everything from different angles.

- I strongly admire her scheduling habits, traditions, and general approach to life. I realize when I'm with her I can improve the order in my life. When we schedule time together, it's intense, because we both know we're there to connect.

- We don't get into long philosophical debates about everything. As an INTP, this doesn't bother me. Why? Because even though we think differently, we generally come to the same conclusions. I just look at the intellectual process as a fun ride, she looks at it as an ends to a means. She's knows I'm always down to talk about anything (intellectual or emotional), and she knows I'll enjoy getting to the heart of the issue to give her a fresh perspective. But I don't force it on her. I'm her intellectual rock on her terms she proactively uses, and she loves that I love to help where I can.

- She doesn't pretend to understand why I find thinking for the sake of thinking fun, but in her eyes, it somehow contributes to the development of a man she's extremely attracted to, and it makes me really happy, and that's all that matters.

*I noticed many others on this thread have mentioned annoyances about ESFJs being bossy, moody, control freaks, stupid, etc. These are generally signs of immature people, not incompatible personalities.


With me, the bottom line here is that... opposites attract. I am a challenge for her Fe, because my Ti doesn't back down. And she respects that and understands it's fucking hot that her Fe influence doesn't always work on me, but I'm still very attracted to her. I feel the same way about my Ti tricks, and it's a challenge for me to see what I'll say and how I'll say things to a person who has such a strong interpersonal radar. The end result is the best of me comes out, and I'm able to express my Fi (which is pretty well developed) in ways to proactively build the relationship. Because I have to be careful, because I know she's smart where I'm stupid. In this way we don't compete directly with each other, but instead compete with ourselves because we bring out sides of each other we didn't know existed.

 

[scenefinale]

According to socionics the ESFJ is our dual, best relationship match. I just don't see how it is, in my experience there's just conflicting points of view all the time...

The dual relationship is most certainly not the "best relationship match".

Anyone can make sense of it all?

Yes, people tend to come up with theories on relationships based on their own subjective experiences which can be very misleading.

Relationships are naturally hard to dissect as they are a subject in which feelings are naturally high.

 

[viche]

To read more about INTP - ESFJ duality relations check the descriptions under LII-ESE:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Duality_observations#Alpha_Dualities

 

[INTP_man]

I am an INTP man married to ESFJ woman. I filed for divorce in less than a year. The ongoing conflicts started to elevate as we married and after few months I found myself suffocating in this relationship. This is my list of why INTP-ESFJ is a highly likely failure:

1 - S vs N
In every subject, activity or problem, she only saw what is on surface and failed to understand the depth beyond and behind the curtain. I felt like I am watching movies with someone who can only comment about quality of voice or seats in theaters. She threw out some very old notes I kept in garage because they were dusty and therefore trash. It was like living with a Alpha version of a female prototype who is only equipped with sensory devices like cameras, microphones, but has no understanding of content or concept of the world she lives in.

2 - J vs P
She became too controlling and bossy, interfering with my personal issues and relationships. I had to constantly ask her to give me some space. A simple task like paying restaurant bills was interrupted by her to make sure there is no mistake, she would request a menu to double-check stuff and almost in every social activity, I felt humilated, ashamed, and uncofortable around her. Maybe this is a normal activity for many people, but I think, If I am the one paying and signing the bills, then it is me who is in communication with the waitress or whatever institution and I do what I like. I might even prefer to ignore something, because it doesn't worth my time or reputation or the situation we are in.

3 - F vs T
How can you reason with someone who doesn't get even simplest logical arguments? in the beginning I thought she has low IQ, but then I realized it is the absence of Logic. I am talking here about false generalizations, arriving at ridicules conclusions, problem with understanding "if statements", "and/or" and so on. Her reactions were purely emotional and out of control. Not only towards me, but towards everyone around us. I consider logic and rationality as primary sign of maturity, so I felt like I am dealing with a teenager at all times. Towards the end of our relationship I felt very lonely and depressed, for not having anyone to have enjoyable conversations or a partner to consult with on everyday issues.

4 - E vs I
This was the least concerning area for us. But it wasn't a positive contributor either. She didn't understand the importance of many hobbies or extra curriculum activities I had or wanted to start. She found them as a sign of indecisiveness or procastinations. I believe, INTPs have a deep interest in learning and discovering the world, and in fact, this is what made me who I am today as a person and professional in my career. So I found it hard, to let anyone trying to change me or our children in future. My parents were always supportive of my curious mind, and I respect that in parenting.

If you are an INTP man, itching to date or marry an ESFJ woman you met, I wish you luck and lots of patience. In my experience, the red flags were up and waving from the first date, but as described in many articles, we find the opposite, attractive in the beginning.

(Note: Of course, me in her world is as terrible as she in my world, but this is INTP forum, so I only listed my complaints)

 

[8151147]

I am an INTP man married to ESFJ woman. I filed for divorce in less than a year. The ongoing conflicts started to elevate as we married and after few months I found myself suffocating in this relationship. This is my list of why INTP-ESFJ is a highly likely failure:

I feel so sorry to hear that seriously, I can feel you and something... sympathy. It's not because I'm also an INTP or I've married to an ESFJ, but because my father is an ESFJ and he had divorce after I was born. I don't know my biological mother type though. I seriously hope that people can understand each other better so their children not have to suffered...

However I disagree with your decision that you had to divorced, no matter you have children before it or not. Although INTP and ESFJ are very opposite to each other, they can support if condescended. Physical wounds may be healed and leave scar, but the hurt to souls will never be healed and let us suffered.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I am an INTP man married to ESFJ woman. I filed for divorce in less than a year. The ongoing conflicts started to elevate as we married and after few months I found myself suffocating in this relationship. This is my list of why INTP-ESFJ is a highly likely failure:

I think that those are traits of some kind of obsesive compulsiveness more than a fair comparison between the overall healthy ESFJ and a INTP, i mean, that's a extreme case. Looks like a SJ - NP relationship chart. You weren't lucky and i'm sorry. It would be nice to read her version too, which are your faults?, starting from "how i married this woman?" lol, joking. Maybe your real faults have something to do with her attitude, like she wants to see something from you which never occurs and she keeps dealing with it by getting angry at you or whatever. I dunno. Some honest autocriticism could help.
Nevertheless i think i get you since i have a "friend" who's likely an SJ and i see this same shit over and over again, the problem is that i can't quite tell if STJ with inferior Fi who haven't grow old enough or a ESFJ with a rotten spirit. A healthy dominant Fe person doesn't match with this ---> "Her reactions were purely emotional and out of control", because by definition they control F. You don't. Period.
Good look in your new life.

 

[Nihilmatic]

ENFJ's not ESFJ's. MBTI isn't even supposed to be taken so seriously especially where a type should wed another.

 

[Yellow]

ESFJs are such a varied category of people. They have such a wide difference among them that it's hard to judge them as a unified group.

I was married to one once, and he was a perfect example of an ESFJ gone very wrong. I know another [probably]INTP, who has been happily married to an ESFJ for over 20 years.

 

[Jennywocky]

I deal with mature Fe folks pretty well. (Mature Ti can see where an Fe person is coming from at least, and respect their concern for others when reasonable, and mature Fe can see how Ti is thinking through things and learn to flex to that as well.)

Pretty much any type that hasn't been tempered by experiences beyond themselves will have trouble if dropped into a relationship with some other contrary temperament that has been allowed to become extreme.

(Before I got married, I got into one of those weird relationship with an ESFJ, and while we never officially dated, it was kind of in that weird gray area and we also did fool around; and it was such love/hate. I remember thinking I might be in love for about two hours, and then I would be entirely pissed off and disgusted by the ESFJ's attitude and never want to talk again. Finally I officially started dating someone who didn't piss me off all the time, and the ESFJ disappeared and never talked to me again ever, I don't even know if they're still alive so many years later.)

Anyway, the problem was that we were both kind of extreme and immature in our own particular type preferences and didn't know how to deal with the other. I have friends who are Fe primarys and auxes and since they're reasonable people, I deal just fine with them and vice versa.

Marriage can be hard, if you haven't worked out those kinks. I'm not really surprised by hearing of ESFJ/INTP breakups. Can you flex to each other and make use of each other's strengths, or do you use your strengths to pummel each other for not being like you? That's the determining factor.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

ESFJ's conform to the general rule : Bitches be crazy.

I have some great ESFJ friends, but dating them is absolutely out of the question. They're insane, all of them, i swear. They also need constant attention and affection, something I cannot offer.

I am an INTP man married to ESFJ woman. I filed for divorce in less than a year. The ongoing conflicts started to elevate as we married and after few months I found myself suffocating in this relationship. This is my list of why INTP-ESFJ is a highly likely failure:

1 - S vs N
In every subject, activity or problem, she only saw what is on surface and failed to understand the depth beyond and behind the curtain. I felt like I am watching movies with someone who can only comment about quality of voice or seats in theaters. She threw out some very old notes I kept in garage because they were dusty and therefore trash. It was like living with a Alpha version of a female prototype who is only equipped with sensory devices like cameras, microphones, but has no understanding of content or concept of the world she lives in.

2 - J vs P
She became too controlling and bossy, interfering with my personal issues and relationships. I had to constantly ask her to give me some space. A simple task like paying restaurant bills was interrupted by her to make sure there is no mistake, she would request a menu to double-check stuff and almost in every social activity, I felt humilated, ashamed, and uncofortable around her. Maybe this is a normal activity for many people, but I think, If I am the one paying and signing the bills, then it is me who is in communication with the waitress or whatever institution and I do what I like. I might even prefer to ignore something, because it doesn't worth my time or reputation or the situation we are in.

3 - F vs T
How can you reason with someone who doesn't get even simplest logical arguments? in the beginning I thought she has low IQ, but then I realized it is the absence of Logic. I am talking here about false generalizations, arriving at ridicules conclusions, problem with understanding "if statements", "and/or" and so on. Her reactions were purely emotional and out of control. Not only towards me, but towards everyone around us. I consider logic and rationality as primary sign of maturity, so I felt like I am dealing with a teenager at all times. Towards the end of our relationship I felt very lonely and depressed, for not having anyone to have enjoyable conversations or a partner to consult with on everyday issues.

4 - E vs I
This was the least concerning area for us. But it wasn't a positive contributor either. She didn't understand the importance of many hobbies or extra curriculum activities I had or wanted to start. She found them as a sign of indecisiveness or procastinations. I believe, INTPs have a deep interest in learning and discovering the world, and in fact, this is what made me who I am today as a person and professional in my career. So I found it hard, to let anyone trying to change me or our children in future. My parents were always supportive of my curious mind, and I respect that in parenting.

If you are an INTP man, itching to date or marry an ESFJ woman you met, I wish you luck and lots of patience. In my experience, the red flags were up and waving from the first date, but as described in many articles, we find the opposite, attractive in the beginning.

(Note: Of course, me in her world is as terrible as she in my world, but this is INTP forum, so I only listed my complaints)

Divorcing an ESFJ, at long last (13 years of torture to be exact!)! As WIlliam Wallace is supposed to have said:

FFFFFFRRRRRREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!

Damn it feels nice. Like getting my long lost soul back good.

Marriage can be hard, if you haven't worked out those kinks. I'm not really surprised by hearing of ESFJ/INTP breakups. Can you flex to each other and make use of each other's strengths, or do you use your strengths to pummel each other for not being like you? That's the determining factor.

I think I understand your reasoning Jw. In my case I do believe that as an INTP I was able to entirely lay off the pummeling and let the other be the ESFJ they were meant to be. Problem was I wasn't being fair to myself in that the other didn't offer me the same courtesy.

 

[ENTP lurker]

I think many like to think that Keirsey type is yours MBTI type. Functionally TiNe would be most likely same in socionics and MBTI. However many go down with Keirsey's type which is the source of greatest confusion. There was a study where Keirsey's INTJs were highly correlated with socionics ESTps.
NTPs the "engineers" title is misnomer. At least I would be quite incapable of doing mechanical engineering. I'm too cloudy headed.
However in MBTI the letter assignments (not very theory but rather business focus) and functions confuse many. Therefore you must look it in terms external (ir)rationality vs internal (ir)rationality. INTP are extremely rational internally but bit chaotic externally this the reason for P (and Gulenko's socionics j).

Anyways. TiNe should find emotionally driven individuals very interesting and complementary. As an ENTP it may get too carried away where I have to too gently correct it and it never really register in their brain. They are funny and interesting individuals nevertheless. We make each other laugh. Unlike those ESFP queens.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think I understand your reasoning Jw. In my case I do believe that as an INTP I was able to entirely lay off the pummeling and let the other be the ESFJ they were meant to be. Problem was I wasn't being fair to myself in that the other didn't offer me the same courtesy.

yeah, that's typically the problem.

Now that my marriage to an ISFJ is said and done by a few years, looking back, I see that I was far more accepting and flexible than my ex. (With an ISFJ, it's more veiled, but... just this crazy clinging to "the way my spouse is supposed to be" versus who the spouse actually is.)

I really did flex and bend, and even adjust who I was to mesh better, and I felt like I grasped my ex as much as is reasonably possible, but then again, that's part of who I am -- seeing things from multiple perspectives and adapting to situations. It wasn't what my ex was, and so I didn't get that same flexibility in return. I guess it depends on how flexible the SFJ can be.

 

[Massiv0r]

Other Extinguishment/Bad hollywood relationships:

Ryan Reynolds ENFJ Blake Lively INFP
Jennifer Anniston ESFJ Justin Theroux ISFP
MacCauley Culkin INTP Mila Kunis ENTJ
Jennifer Lopez ESFJ Casper Smart ISFP
Jennifer Lopez ESFJ Mark Anthony ISFP

Jennifer Lopez is ESTJ and Jennifer Anniston ISFJ....

 

[anais]

(Generally, from the ESFJs I've encountered) They're very warm and friendly, although they don't make great partners for delving into philosophical debate. Often overly sympathetic, it can be quite annoying sometimes when they focus on emotional aspects of conversation (although I'm fairly sure averting them is equally annoying for the ESFJs on our part). They're great for the tradition vs non-tradition debate, and often open up aspects of the argument I perhaps wouldn't have considered otherwise. I've found ESFJs as nice acquaintances to have, but I personally steer clear of anything more.

 

[viche]

SJs are relatively stable and therefore good for marriage and children. If you don't want kids or marriage, then they are generally not the best choices for INTPs. Other N-types offer more stimulation, and better companionship and compatibility.

Agreed. Ideal relationship match depends on the purpose.

If the INTP wants to marry, create a family, have children and run a household, this INTP should keep in mind that all of this takes a lot of energy, organizational talent, and real world presence. Sensing type is invaluable here. INTPs who try building families with other intuitive types, especially introverts like INFJs, run into significant problems due to lack of sensing and energy to make it all work.

If the INTP seeks relationship of the type mentor/muse, good mental connection, professional association, great sex, casual and short-term relations, then any type can be the ideal match.


Of notable mention: Enstein is usually typed as ENTP or INTP. His first marriage was to another NT, Mileva Maric his fellow physics student and the only woman in his class, whom he later divorced and married his cousin Elsa who by all biographical accounts of her sounds like an xSFJ type.

 

[viche]

There's a lot of confusion about this. I am not sure who created the J/P switch for MBTI to Socionics. I think Socionics would make a lot more sense if people would ignore it though.

The J/P switch was not "created".

It was observed to exist in reality, for example through polls such as these - poll1, poll2 - that about 70% of introverts switch the last letter of the 4-letter code going from MBTI to Socionics.


It makes perfect sense if you actually type yourself by functions, rather than type profiles or stereotypes.

In Socionics the TiNe type is INTj while in MBTI it's INTP, so if you are confident in yourself being Ti-leading then you'd be INTj in one system and INTP in another - nothing strange about this, it's that socionics assigns j/p letters at the end differently from MBTI.

 

[ENTP lurker]

I have not seen it. I have seen LII-IEE/INTP-ENFP. Fe is something they like so I can see this happening for ENFP as they are using it as their demonstrative. It is anyway that INTP in the end finds rational people (or in other words EJ/IP types) most comfortable to be with.

I as irrational type like more EP/IJ people in the end. The overall flexibility on daily matters is something to be strived for. I'll coordinate only when needed. ESFJ as activity relation can be nice but they are expecting that I'm going follow my ideas.... For me it is just an irrational play something of which ISFJs understand fairly well.

 

[OmoInisa]

I have not seen it. I have seen LII-IEE/INTP-ENFP. Fe is something they like so I can see this happening for ENFP as they are using it as their demonstrative.

The concept of dimensionality is perhaps the most unfortunate aspect of Socionics, in its destructive effect on the integrity and utility of the system. It makes the whole enterprise entirely circular.
I suspect it was a creative attempted solution to the problem of the incoherence introduced by the deviation away from Jung's function definitions.

I as irrational type like more EP/IJ people in the end. The overall flexibility on daily matters is something to be strived for. I'll coordinate only when needed. ESFJ as activity relation can be nice but they are expecting that I'm going follow my ideas.... For me it is just an irrational play something of which ISFJs understand fairly well.

This exotic reimagining of Jung's concept of rationality/irrationality is also a major issue with Socionics. It's describing something that's more Pe-dom than P-dom in general.
I think you'll find that an ISFJ is much closer to an ESFJ in expecting follow-through than they are to a Pe-dom.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

The J/P switch was not "created".

It was observed to exist in reality, for example through polls such as these - poll1, poll2 - that about 70% of introverts switch the last letter of the 4-letter code going from MBTI to Socionics.


It makes perfect sense if you actually type yourself by functions, rather than type profiles or stereotypes.

In Socionics the TiNe type is INTj while in MBTI it's INTP, so if you are confident in yourself being Ti-leading then you'd be INTj in one system and INTP in another - nothing strange about this, it's that socionics assigns j/p letters at the end differently from MBTI.

I don't think this is an entirely fair representation.

Socionics was developed separately without the 4 letter code. It used the three letter code which lacked the J/P dimension, instead Rationality (judging) / Irrationality (perceiving) were implied traits going by the lead function (as opposed to the extraverted function in mbti). The J/P switch was indeed created when someone tried to create mbti analogues out of the Socionics types.

In practical terms the conflict can be epitomized as the difference between mbti TiNe being considered an easy going and open ended Perceiver compared to Socionical Ti having the attribute of systematized and rigid thinking. Thus INTP may not feel comfortable with the Logical-Intuitive-Introvert description.

Whether they can be correlated or not, I think the cause of the problem is primarily due to mbti's interpretation of J/P and misunderstanding of the inner lives of introverts.

 

[FeloniousFunk]

I'm an INTp - ILI and began a relationship with an ESFj - ESE about six weeks ago. Yes, their constant chatter can be enough to make you consider suffocating them with a pillow, but I also believe (for the time being) they've got so many wonderful, complementary attributes that I'm willing to put up with the harmless, incessant blather. Lord knows I've got my peccadillos too.

Ask me if my thoughts have changed in another 3 months.


FF

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I'm an INTP and began a relationship with an ESFJ about six weeks ago. Yes, their constant chatter can be enough to make you consider suffocating them with a pillow, but I also believe (for the time being) they've got so many wonderful, complementary attributes that I'm willing to put up with the harmless, incessant blather. Lord knows I've got my peccadillos too.

Ask me if my thoughts have changed in another 3 months.


FF

I like your username.

Welcome to INTPf, good sir.

 

[FeloniousFunk]

I like your username.

Welcome to INTPf, good sir.

Thanks. Much appreciated.


FF

 

[viche]

I'm an INTp - ILI and began a relationship with an ESFj - ESE about six weeks ago. Yes, their constant chatter can be enough to make you consider suffocating them with a pillow, but I also believe (for the time being) they've got so many wonderful, complementary attributes that I'm willing to put up with the harmless, incessant blather. Lord knows I've got my peccadillos too.

Ask me if my thoughts have changed in another 3 months.


FF

Socionics (INTp - ILI) is Ni+Te.
MBTI's (INTP) is Ti+Ne.
You got different functions mate than what this thread is talking about.

 

[OmoInisa]

Socionics (INTp - ILI) is Ni+Te.
MBTI's (INTP) is Ti+Ne.
You got different functions mate than what this thread is talking about.

If he were an ILI as he seems to believe, then yes. But I suspect he's actually an LII and has simply typed himself incorrectly as ILI via the test and/or type description. His description of the dual relationship seems familiar enough from experience.
In any event, I believe the MBTI types have greater coherence than the Socionics ones. Even if one leaves aside the issue of which system more accurately defines the cognitive functions (they're broadly similar enough for it not to matter much anyway), the coherence of Socionics types is heavily compromised by its conception of rationality/irrationality.
In reality, rationality/irrationality by itself matters much less than the attitude of the rationality/irrationality. MBTI does capture the attitude of rationality in its P/J concept, which is why it is more meaningful.

An INTP and an ENTP generally have much more in common than an INTP with an ENTJ, despite the fact that the INTP shares dominant rationality with the ENTJ.
The INTP does of course share Ji with the ENTP.
With Socionics, one gets more of a sense that there's a half/half situation going on with a lot of the type descriptions.

The intertype relations however are truly inspired, in spite of the absurd excesses of the duality concept. They'd be even more startling in my view if the type definitions were better. As it is, I currently get best benefit from intertype relations by salvaging the most impressive insights and applying them to the MBTI functional types.

 

[FeloniousFunk]

I've since had the opportunity to talk with a number of folks and to do a lot more reading about the characteristics of the two MBTI types that I vacillate between. I indeed DID make a mistake in typing myself as INTP.

I'm not a classic extrovert--I'm a bit of a lone wolf--but the overall characteristics of the ENTP are a much more accurate fit. I may not be as active when it comes to people a lot of the time, but I am much more outwardly focused when it comes to projects and the pursuit of ideas and information. I pay more attention to the objective side of things, not the subjective side on which INTPs tend to focus.

Apparently it's not all that uncommon for an ENTP to inaccurately type himself as an INTP because of the time that he can spend alone processing and evaluating things. I find this especially true for myself when I'm overloaded with information. I've misunderstood this however as being the typical introvert 'recharging his batteries.' Given the number of additional tests I've taken over this past week, I've now concluded that I'm an ENTP (MBTI) and an ENTp / ILE-Ne via Socionics, with 7w8 / SCUEI.

With me an ENTP, and my partner an ESFJ, we now fall into the category of Activity Partners, which poses its own set of challenges over the long haul. This pairing is what I now better hope to understand.

FF

 

[OmoInisa]

That's interesting. And it still makes sense from your description of your dynamics. Duality is much like Activity. Socionics employs a categorical approach due to its Soviet origin. The sharp and precise delineation between relation types is unjustified, and so is the fetishisation of Duality. In reality, Duality and Activity simply trade a few pluses and minuses. And while Duality may well be better in general, the true ideal for you will likely depend on which poisons you find more palatable.

Ultimately, the core wisdom of Socionics is the notion that shared functions result is psychological compatibility, and having your valued but weak functions in a partner is desirable. The rest of it is largely fluff and smoke.

 

[xbox]

i like blabbering Ne stuff onto Ni people and watching them implode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!