INTP + Army = WTF?

[intpz]

So I've read that at least two (I think more) people from around here are/were in the army. Why do you do it? It's all that an INTP should hate, starting with being ordered around. I would never wanna be a soldier or any other army guy...

 

[ObliviousGenius]

Personally I'm joining the USAF because of the easy job opportunity, pay, and money for school afterwards. I'm not joining because of my undying loyalty to the flag, I'm no patriot. I respect the ones that are though.

I'm not afraid of the conditions. Besides I live in an environment where everything is anti-INTP anyway, this won't be any different. The whole concept of a team or unit is growing on me the though.

 

[intpz]

Personally I'm joining the USAF because of the easy job opportunity, pay, and money for school afterwards. I'm not joining because of my undying loyalty to the flag, I'm no patriot. I respect the ones that are though.

I'm not afraid of the conditions. Besides I live in an environment where everything is anti-INTP anyway, this won't be any different. The whole concept of a team or unit is growing on me the though.

Hm, how much do they pay in the US army?

 

[EditorOne]

Dwight Eisenhower, leader of the joint British-American effort against Germany in WWII and later President of the U.S., is usually described as INTJ. He may, however, be exactly what an INTP in the military looks like after having his J functions well exercised by a couple of decades in the military and given responsibility for a huge enterprise that required an open mind fueled by an active imagination, a big-picture mind, and a mind capable of separating what matters from what doesn't matter. If you can put up with the ESFJ hysteria over irrelevant minutia and the authoritarian nonsense long enough to achieve colonel or higher, there seems to be a place for INTP to be valuable in the military and possibly fulfilling. The top ranks of the military are not all robot-like martinets; I know of one who is writing literary reviews and books in his retirement and demonstrates a great many INTP qualities.

So while it's not an obvious choice, and not one I would have made when young, there may be something there after all. Kind of like "with this much horse manure, there must be a pony here somewhere."

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Soldier is the PC term for mercenary.

No different than a whore, just more violent.

 

[intpz]

@EditorOne Now that's an interesting explanation. I think most INTPs have to go through the "oh fuck, I hate my life!" period, which is caused by a job they don't like, but are unable to get a better one due to various reasons. Unless you grab your life early and achieve something, you are very likely to go through that kind of period. In fact, I think @Architect mentioned that in one of his posts. And in fact, I'm looking at beginning to do that as well.

 

[ObliviousGenius]

Hm, how much do they pay in the US army?

Well I'm in the Air Force and the pay for the lowest rank is about $1500 a month. It isn't a huge amount, but there are many bills I don't have to pay including rent/mortgage, utilities, etc. There are some basic necessities, but it's just expendable income, really.

 

[Architect]

Architect mentioned that in one of his posts. And in fact, I'm looking at beginning to do that as well.">@ I think @Architect mentioned that in one of his posts. And in fact, I'm looking at beginning to do that as well.

@

Interesting, very perceptive of you. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that explicitly, but the idea probably is playing around the edges of some of the things I've said. Hmm, well let's elaborate on that.

I suspect all INTP's go through the I Hate My Life kind of period. If not episodically then at least once or twice. The problem for us is that this world just isn't designed for our strengths. I recall my mother yelling at me to get off the couch when I was younger and 'go out and do something' ... I'm sure you all have similar stories.

Generalizing EditorOne's idea, I think he's absolutely right in this regards. In fact I'd take it as a general principle for finding happiness in work for the INTP, for any job. Young INTP's agonize about their career (I did too), and what I learned during my life is that it's not so much the career, but the specific job/niche you carve for yourself. If your at all a resourceful INTP you should be able to eventually carve out a spot for yourself, conducive to your interests, in nearly any career.

There is a huge need for INTP's everywhere, the problem is just that the SJ managers don't understand that. So pick your path, pay your dues, and work it into something that is to your liking. There are spots everywhere for a sorcerers apprentice. One example is Paul Wolfowitz, who I suspect is an INTP. I laugh at a Senate hearing once where he was going off, theorizing about the theoretical possibilities of taking some action or another, and the committee members brusquely brushed him off so they could 'get back on topic'. But there he was, hanging out on the edge of things analyzing and providing his analysis to the President.

Anyhow, definitely I think you could work a military job into the job of your dreams if you just pay your dues and keep working it. Lots of need for an analyst type. I'll say again though that if you at all have a yen for programming that this is probably the most optimal place to be for an INTP, and now we're at a time where its raining buckets of money on the career. So even if you're in the military consider finding some IT jobs (lots of them there - I know as I do military contracts)

 

[Beholder]

Soldier is the PC term for mercenary.

No different than a whore, just more violent.

If that were true maybe I wouldn't be broke
My country has a mandatory draft, although about 50% of people find ways around it... I didn't, and it wasn't so bad, in fact I enjoyed almost all of it (our military is very different from the American military btw - much less pointless discipline, none of that standing at attention and saluting, marching and such silliness).
I'm sure if I was in the American army it would have been hell for me, but as it turned out I had a pretty good service. My older brother was in this super elite special forces thingy, where he did really well, so I kinda felt like I had a lot to live up to, and for the first year and a half was trying to advance to a command position to make up for not being in the special forces. After not being chosen for commanders course twice, and feeling like a failure, I was finally sent to it on the third and last opportunity. Fortunately, after I finished commanders course someone decided I wasn't the best candidate for command and was put in a position of an instructor for reserve duty soldiers. This was the worst blow for me, but it finally taught me what I should have learned from the beginning - I'm a square peg trying to fit in all the round holes. Once I accepted my new position I realized it was the best thing that could have happened to me, I would have hated being a commander, and the place I was sent to was a place where other (more serious and army-ish) units sent the soldiers they didn't like, so I was surrounded by other people who didn't fit in the army's rigid framework (like me). It was heaven, now that I'm out of the army I actually miss it...

Anyways, what I wanted to say in the first place is, the army, above the level of the simple soldier is a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE place for an INTP. But when you're a lowly soldier with no command, it can be a lot of fun, if you're with the right people.
The army is really a religion, at the end of the day.

 

[drifting cloud]

As OG pointed out, economic reality will trump idealism every time.

Example: I am a pre-medical student. Paying for my classes is hard enough now, but medical school? I don't even want to think about how much it will cost, how many loans I will have to take out, etc.

The US military, on the other hand, wants physicians, and will give me a hefty signing bonus plus a monthly stipend for signing up, and cover (most) of my tuition. In return of course I owe them a year of service for every year they pay for, but for the opportunity to graduate debt free, it's a price many are willing to pay.

Philosophically and politically speaking I am very much opposed to the military, but principles don't pay bills. Trust me. I tried mailing a five page essay to my ISP on why their service should be free since we all benefit from the postive externality of increased communication. I found myself without internet pretty quick.

 

[intpz]

Well I'm in the Air Force and the pay for the lowest rank is about $1500 a month. It isn't a huge amount, but there are many bills I don't have to pay including rent/mortgage, utilities, etc. There are some basic necessities, but it's just expendable income, really.

That isn't much considering the salaries in the US for that kind of struggle. I wouldn't do it. I would even prefer working as a cashier in one of these small stores that are around the US over being in the military.

I suspect all INTP's go through the I Hate My Life kind of period. If not episodically then at least once or twice. The problem for us is that this world just isn't designed for our strengths. I recall my mother yelling at me to get off the couch when I was younger and 'go out and do something' ... I'm sure you all have similar stories.

Ironically, when I was home I was always being yelled at to get out or help with the chores. When I chose to help with the chores, I was being yelled at that I don't do them right (in the "regular" way, which is often slower). If I went outside to take a walk or something along those lines, I was being yelled at that I was outside for too long, which usually is 4-7PM (winter-summer), after that it's considered "too long."[/QUOTE]

Generalizing EditorOne's idea, I think he's absolutely right in this regards. In fact I'd take it as a general principle for finding happiness in work for the INTP, for any job. Young INTP's agonize about their career (I did too), and what I learned during my life is that it's not so much the career, but the specific job/niche you carve for yourself. If your at all a resourceful INTP you should be able to eventually carve out a spot for yourself, conducive to your interests, in nearly any career.

That may be true, however sometimes (like the military), you have to go through hell for years before being able to get to that sweet spot. Some other careers don't require to go through so much agony, and sometimes not for as long as another career. At least that's how I "choose" when to say that I couldn't do that or that.

Example: I am a pre-medical student. Paying for my classes is hard enough now, but medical school? I don't even want to think about how much it will cost, how many loans I will have to take out, etc.

...What exactly is "pre-medical" student?

 

[drifting cloud]

That isn't much considering the salaries in the US for that kind of struggle. I wouldn't do it. I would even prefer working as a cashier in one of these small stores that are around the US over being in the military.

Good luck getting a job in the US right now, even as a cashier at a small store. And you would be making considerably less money at one of those jobs.

There is something of a de-facto draft in the US, where young men from lower-income socio-economic backgrounds are strongly encouraged to join the military, through recruiters, marketing, and the fact that they have few other prospects.

...What exactly is "pre-medical" student?

There are specific academic requirements one must complete before applying to medical school; a pre-medical student or "pre-med" is somebody in the process of completing these requirements before taking the MCAT and submitting an application.

 

[intpz]

Good luck getting a job in the US right now, even as a cashier at a small store. And you would be making considerably less money at one of those jobs.

Hm, sounds like the situation around here. Students want to be cashiers. But I'm talking about the supermarket cashiers, which personally I'd find a horrible place to work at, not the small store cashiers.

There are specific academic requirements one must complete before applying to medical school; a pre-medical student or "pre-med" is somebody in the process of completing these requirements before taking the MCAT and submitting an application.

That's... Odd... Too bad I don't care enough to look into it. But I'm a little curious.

 

[EditorOne]

It can take a long time to break through to get to the kind of niche that Architect described. But it need not, if you plan. A friend of mine, perhaps seven years older, was drafted into the Army at the height of the war in Vietnam. He didn't accept the premise that he was cannon fodder. Basic training was at Fort Dix, in New Jersey. Before it was over he'd demonstrated enough intelligence and responsibility and cheerfulness to get a job in the base personnel office. (Intelligence and cheerfulness were a rare combination at that point among draftees, and this guy was a school teacher already used to dealing with bureaucracy and childishness. ) From there he got himself into the office that assigned soldiers to specific tasks and units, and made sure his unique skills were made known to the decision makers. He HAD to go to Vietnam, everybody did, but he went over and was in charge of the swimming pools at Cam Rahn Bay, the rest and recreation center for the entire American military. That was because he was qualified and few others were; he helped build and then operate an Olympic-sized pool at his family's big private campground on the Jersey shore. At the time, late 1969, early 1970, operating the filters, pumps and chlorination for a big pool weren't in the Army's list of 1,500 different tasks (I bet it is now) for which personnel could be trained, so, voila, his niche. Admittedly it was just to survive a two-year hitch, but still. He learned the rules and then used them to his advantage. The same principle applies if you simply want to advance grades in any job: Learn the rules, use them to your advantage. We have a huge advantage in analysis and the big picture, and our common failure to use them for our own advancement is one of the blindingly obvious shortcomings we have. INTPs like Architect, who consciously look for the comfort zone and figure out how to get there, seem to be fewer in number than INTPs who find themselves in utterly unsuitable jobs and simply rail against fate, authority, the system, everything else. I know I took too much enjoyment from wallowing in rebellion. :-) I'm over it now. My new career is advancing nicely, sort of. In a year I've gone from idiot new recruit to idiot new office manager/team leader. I guess that's success? Anyway I have applied Architect-like sensibilities to the task of getting into a comfortable spot, and I even have a schedule to do it, so I guess it's proof that nobody is too old to learn new things.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

I would think that the military might give P-leaning people the J structure they have difficulty imposing on themselves. Sometimes, it can just be very calming to know exactly what you're going to be doing at work; you can still be creative on your own time.

I used to think that what I needed from a job was maximum personal freedom and as few rules as possible, so I worked at places that held out that promise: non-profits, way cool record stores, scrappy hole-in-the-wall publishing houses. It almost never worked out. Now I work at a very buttoned-down business that provides that same sense of order and structure the military seems to offer. Procedures and expectations are spelled out in explicit detail. I may not always agree with them, but there's very little guesswork involved.

 

[Thor]

So I've read that at least two (I think more) people from around here are/were in the army. Why do you do it? It's all that an INTP should hate, starting with being ordered around. I would never wanna be a soldier or any other army guy...

To serve my country. I didn't really have any trouble with authority
but during basic training I was late for parade & a corporal had
me in the office and was shouting / screaming in my face and as
he was doing it bits of spittle were landing in my face. I remember
trying so hard not to laugh because the physical beasting would have been so bad if i had. Luckily I managed to refrain. This sort of thing has always produced the net result of wanting to laugh.

Before entry i remeber arriving to do the fitness test and there was
this large guy who had flown over from Germany. A leaflet tells you
what you are required to do in the fitness test & three pull ups are
part of the test to gain admittance to the training. Anyway he failed which i thought was really odd because he had come all the way
from Germany & couldn't do the three pull ups. You think he would
have tested this before arriving. The reason he couldn't do them is because he was fifteen stone roughly (210 lbs) which is alot of
weight to pull up compared to the lighter guys.

I think British army training is even more strict & regimental than American.

On arrival we all had to stand at ease which is :

feet shoulder width apart, hands clasped behind back but with upper body half still in position of attention (chest out, shoulders back). This is typically used when soldiers must wait a short duration, ready to adopt the position of attention.

It was not a short duration lol it went on hours i think. Due to not
being able to move people started to faint whilst stood up. This intro
was the craziest bit of the training and a fair few decided the army wasn't for them straight away which is th whole point of this crazy introduction to British Army life.

 

[SpaceYeti]

So I've read that at least two (I think more) people from around here are/were in the army. Why do you do it? It's all that an INTP should hate, starting with being ordered around. I would never wanna be a soldier or any other army guy...

It's simple, really. No education, not enough money to pay my bills... it was either start committing crimes to stay in jail during the nights, or join the military. It is difficult to adjust, but it's actually pretty easy, once you do. It's the easiest job I've ever had, it's just irritatingly SJ. All you really need to do is be in the right place at the right time and you're considered a good soldier. Then, once you start getting used to it, you can use your thinking and get yourself a promotion and start leading others.

 

[intpz]

I would think that the military might give P-leaning people the J structure they have difficulty imposing on themselves. Sometimes, it can just be very calming to know exactly what you're going to be doing at work; you can still be creative on your own time.

I do like to get explicit details on what someone wants from me (unless they are okay with me making the decisions), but I also want it to have multiple ways of achieving those goals. If there is only one way to do it, the job gets boring quite quickly.

Creativity on my own time is nice, however keep in mind that you do spend at least 40h (sometimes 48h) at work a week, and that is if you don't work overtime. Considering the considerable amount of sleep, you hate 50% of the time you spend, which is half your life. And think about a situation like this if you are in a job with a boss who tells you to work overtime? That turns into 60-80% of your time. Since you have to eat, do bodily functions, get home/to work, what's left? Almost nothing. A life like that is not worth living.

To serve my country.

I noticed that this guy's lurking around the forums as a so called "troll." Why is he still here?

It's simple, really. No education, not enough money to pay my bills... it was either start committing crimes to stay in jail during the nights, or join the military. It is difficult to adjust, but it's actually pretty easy, once you do. It's the easiest job I've ever had, it's just irritatingly SJ. All you really need to do is be in the right place at the right time and you're considered a good soldier. Then, once you start getting used to it, you can use your thinking and get yourself a promotion and start leading others.

What about your "co-workers?" They should hate INs, or NTs even. How did you get along with them?

 

[SpaceYeti]

What about your "co-workers?" They should hate INs, or NTs even. How did you get along with them?

That presumes the people in the military are all, or primarily, SJ. While plenty of them are, especially higher ups, most of us Joes are of a variety of personality types. The military itself is very SJ, not necessarily all the people in it.

I get along with my coworkers the same way I do any other assortment of people I start out not knowing. I tell stupid jokes and am otherwise fairly introverted until I get a better feel for them all, and then I start spending time with the ones I can get along with the best.

 

[EditorOne]

"If there is only one way to do it, the job gets boring quite quickly."

The military is pretty big on doing it, whatever it is, only one way. The predictability of consistency is pretty useful when you are doing things on a massive scale but yet have a lot of details. Consistency is pretty important, also, when you're dealing with things that blow up.

 

[Hadoblado]

I was thinking of joining the army about five years ago, to get my life in order. However, I don't agree with pretty much anything the army signifies, and it was not a matter of necessity, so I didn't.
It would be nice to have a rounded S&J, but IMO it would be horrific to round them in this way.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

Creativity on my own time is nice, however keep in mind that you do spend at least 40h (sometimes 48h) at work a week, and that is if you don't work overtime. Considering the considerable amount of sleep, you hate 50% of the time you spend, which is half your life. And think about a situation like this if you are in a job with a boss who tells you to work overtime? That turns into 60-80% of your time. Since you have to eat, do bodily functions, get home/to work, what's left? Almost nothing. A life like that is not worth living.

All right, well, maybe what I was getting it is that I don't want my personal interests to bleed over into work. I used to write for a living, which was creative in a way. However, when I got home, I had no energy left to do what I really want to do, which, funnily enough, is writing. So I came up with a cardinal rule that I've tried pretty hard to live by ever since: "Don't get a writing job to support your writing habit."

I mean, I wouldn't say I'm a total drone at work. I do have to exercise some critical thinking, and I have to make stuff look better than it did before it came to me. So I guess you could call that "creative." I just don't pour my heart and soul into it, and leave myself so drained that I've got no energy left for anything else.

 

[intpz]

All right, well, maybe what I was getting it is that I don't want my personal interests to bleed over into work. I used to write for a living, which was creative in a way. However, when I got home, I had no energy left to do what I really want to do, which, funnily enough, is writing. So I came up with a cardinal rule that I've tried pretty hard to live by ever since: "Don't get a writing job to support your writing habit."

Well writing isn't really profitable. As far, as I know, you only get around 10% of the profit.

However, I believe an INTP would enjoy more than just writing. I can think of hundreds of things I would like to do.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

I'm just saying that, yeah, I think you should absolutely follow your dreams, but you should also try to get yourself a steady gig, something that pays the bills and that you can stomach without having it take over your life completely. For some people, the army is a steady gig. What bugs me is when it turns into a fetish.