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intp and having children

majohnso

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i have seen others post on this topic, but keen to take a view.

given your intp type, have you chosen to have children, and if so, was it a conscious decision / decision of your partner.

if you have chosen not to, why not.

appreciate this is a big question with broad range of views, but feel its one to be asked

thanks
 

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I have no children, and will have none.

The ultimate reason why, is that I simply have no innate desire to have children and never have. If you have no desire for children, you shouldn't be having them. It's that simple.

Of course I have dozens of other redundant reasons stemming from the biological, philosophical, social, psychological, and practical. Oh gods, so many reasons, reasons for days.

Strangely enough, I have no aversion to other people's kids and could conceivably be willing to adopt a partner's or an orphan, but it is unlikely as I prefer a flexible lifestyle. Though I've somehow ended up promising to take care of 4 kids of family members, should something befall them, and they're not promises I'd break. If you think that reason contradicts my 'ultimate reason,' you'd be correct, but these are pre-existing kids and family is a far better shot than the system.
 

PmjPmj

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I have no children, and will have none.

Obviously I know nothing of you nor your circumstances, so the following comment isn't aimed at you specifically.

When it comes to individuals saying "I'm never having children because X,Y and Z", I tend to roll my eyes and laugh inwardly unless they are of a certain age. 40+, say. Fact is, until you're over that hill and fully established in life, you have no idea what lies around the next corner - nor how you will develop as a person. Your views invariably change. Often dramatically.

I've lost count of the number of people who were insistent that they'd never bring a child into this world. Amusingly, it's the ones who denied it the hardest / reasoned extensively that ended up having the kids first. It would also seem that the 'biological clock' is no joke for a woman. My wife - who was totally in to her education / career and could not give less of a fuck about kids - suddenly hit a certain age and panicked, realising that she did in fact want children and that time was running out.

Never say never until you quite clearly are 'in the clear', as it were. It's vapid pontificating at its finest. But hey - many of us have been there, so whatevs.

As for having kids...

What can I say? It's simultaneously the best/worst thing I've ever done. It's one hell of a ride for sure. People keep telling me it gets easier, but that won't be the case any time soon :facepalm:

There are days where I wish I could go back to my life as a free agent - but would I, if it came to it?

No. Never. As hard as it gets, they are worth every moment.

I kinda feel sorry for them, actually. Two NTJ parents? I hope they aren't Fe types. Jesus ;)
 

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You have no idea how many times I've been told that pmj. :rolleyes:
Even my christian Parents accept that they're not getting grandkids out of me.

Though even if I did change my mind, many of my reasons would remain valid, and I'd be horribly conflicted and distressed. Ultimately probably still decide not to have children even if I desperately wanted them. I'd adopt in such an instance. A familial history of brain cancer and schizophrenia and personal history of chronic depression that started very young, means by all ethical rights my line is best ended. Plus I consider pregnancy to be psychological suicide and imo the cognitive/psychological effects of pregnancy are massively understudied. I wouldn't risk it unless I no longer wanted to be myself and someone in that state should not have children; nice little catch-22.

but yeah.... ticking clock, all women want kids blah blah blah :facepalm:
 

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It was aimed at me generally though.
Plus I still take issue with it being told to other people.

edit:
Well 'take issue' is a strong phrase.
It's more of a resigned 'uhhghh, another one.'

Plus you were trying to cheat and pacify me in advance so how could I not respond?
 

Minuend

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The older I get the more sure I get I never want any. When I look around and see all the incompetence in people who will have significant impact on my offspring, when I see what kind of forces that's prevalent in society and in general what type of values are promoted and, well, valued, then all of that is at odds with everything I'd want for any offspring. Even if I felt like having children, having them would be, in my eyes, wrong.

I spent a lot of time around people who grew up to be completely fucked, so I have no illusions as to my kids becoming well adapted in spite of their environment. I'm not particularly well adapted myself.

And there's like a million more reasons not to have them, and risks of things becoming pretty shitty in various different ways.

The only reasons I can think of as pro is because it would lead to some sorts of personal growth or because I'd want them. Neither which are acceptable reasons when you draw them up against the potential and existing disadvantages.

If I was to have children, they would be adopted or foster kids
 

Hadoblado

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At no point in my life have I been remotely close to having children.

But, I really want to have children. I don't know if it's a biological drive or not, probably more to do with finding a way to give life meaning. But it would mean a lot to me if I were to have children, I think it would mean enough to think my life worth living.

But to do so would be selfish unless I truly have the best interest of the children at heart, and that means being prepared. I need to get a bit further in life before it's something I'll really consider. Maybe that will take too long. Who knows?
 

PmjPmj

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Plus you were trying to cheat and pacify me in advance so how could I not respond?

Not really.

I totally understand that some individuals do not want children for good reasons, hence saying that my post didn't apply to you specifically because I do not know your circumstances.

It seems to be a running theme with younger individuals, though. "I'M NOT HAVING KIDS BLAH BLAH BULLSHIT BULL- oh, I have kids now". It's so very banal.

Your reasons are sound, I'd say. Not that it has anything the fuck at all to do with me, but FWIW it sounds like a wise decision. Sadly, a close friend of mine chose to have a child with his severely 'genetically handicapped' wife (less of a 'family tree', more of a 'family stump'). She's up to her ears in all manner of nasty genetic bullshit, yet they decided - and it was planned - to have a child.

Poor kid. Fucked before it even had a chance.

The weirdest part in all of this is that the guy in question has a lot going for him. Handsome, highly intelligent (he's probably an INTJ, as it happens) and health-wise has nothing to worry about. Why the fuck he married that hellbeast is beyond me.

Anyway. Not my business, and all that.
 

PmjPmj

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Out of interest, how many of you who are declaring that you'd "Never have children" are in a meaningful relationship with someone?

That right there is a game-changer. It's a 'lock and key' scenario.
 

Pyropyro

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We're giving ourselves one year to conceive children due to health issues. We're also open to adoption if we can't conceive on our own.
 

Minuend

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Out of interest, how many of you who are declaring that you'd "Never have children" are in a meaningful relationship with someone?

That right there is a game-changer. It's a 'lock and key' scenario.

5 years in a relationship that turned out to be better than I imagined relationships to be. When you read around it seems all relationships have some fuckery to it, so I was positively surprised when it turned out you can have a relationship where you actually talk about stuff and can be honest with each other without blaming and yelling at each other. Being with someone who is also your best friend is pretty neat
 

washti

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I dont want kid. I'm afraid he/she will be disabled. It will be very irresposible for me to have kids. My brother has low functioning autism and epilepsy and I saw to much of his blood already. My mother is paranoic schizophrenic never took any drugs for her condition and avoide docs. Research is unclear (as always) if theese shits are inherited and to what degree. I'm probably schizoid but never bother to test.

Pregnancy itself is looking like torture not to mention delivery. Week ago I met classmate. He said that doctor cut his sister bladder during c-section. What a adventure. I tried to hide my fear when he casualy mention this. Small talk and LOL. And I'm pretty sure that man I will have this theoretical sick child would left me. I'm 28 now and my biological clock is totally downplayed by cold logical evaluation of where my life is currently. I have already full plate of things to deal with.
 

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Your reasons are sound, I'd say. Not that it has anything the fuck at all to do with me, but FWIW it sounds like a wise decision.

They are sound. That's the problem. You spout your presumptions and you know nothing about the people you address. You complain about about people asserting their current desires over their own life, but feel entitled to deny their autonomy because you 'know better' when you clearly do not? It's gross, honestly.

Next you'll be telling some devastated infertile person that it's their inevitable future, because you think being mildly annoyed justifies you to preach when no one asked.

Sadly, a close friend of mine chose to have a child with his severely 'genetically handicapped' wife (less of a 'family tree', more of a 'family stump'). She's up to her ears in all manner of nasty genetic bullshit, yet they decided - and it was planned - to have a child.

Poor kid. Fucked before it even had a chance.

The weirdest part in all of this is that the guy in question has a lot going for him. Handsome, highly intelligent (he's probably an INTJ, as it happens) and health-wise has nothing to worry about. Why the fuck he married that hellbeast is beyond me.

lol
You sound jealous.

In this day and age I really wish more people sought genetic profiles. The best looking couple I know found out the hard way that any of their children have a 50% chance of inheriting a genetic disease that will kill them before age 10. Can't imagine such heartache.
 

PmjPmj

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(@Min) ^ Yup.

I was single for... well, my entire life pretty much. I could never be bothered with the games that people play. They were all so obvious to me, and even the thought of participating made me cringe. I have an adverse reaction to people and their bullshit. Either be straight with me or step aside.

S'why my wife and I work so well. We see bullshit, we call it. It's refreshing, and a world apart from interactions I've had with others.
 

PmjPmj

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They are sound. That's the problem. You spout your presumptions and you know nothing about the people you address. You complain about about people asserting their current desires over their own life, but feel entitled to deny their autonomy because you 'know better' when you clearly do not? It's gross, honestly.

Next you'll be telling some devastated infertile person that it's their inevitable future, because you think being mildly annoyed justifies you to preach when no one asked.

It's a shame that you took what I had to say so wildly out of context.

Again, I am commenting on my own experience. The people I mention I know personally. I am talking about something I have observed first hand throughout my life, with people that I know intimately.

You can go ahead and remove that rod from up your arse, now. Unless of course you're in to that kind of thing.

Ho hum :rolleyes:

[EDIT]

lol
You sound jealous.

In this day and age I really wish more people sought genetic profiles. The best looking couple I know found out the hard way that any of their children have a 50% chance of inheriting a genetic disease that will kill them before age 10. Can't imagine such heartache.

I am! He's a creative genius, and one of the most effortlessly eloquent individuals I've ever met.

Re: genetic profiling, I agree. It could save a lot of heartache for sure. The couple you mention have my deepest sympathies. I cannot imagine any pain greater than that of losing a child.
 
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"i created you to give my life meaning so you'd better be grateful. sorry about the whole lifelong slavery thing btw :S"
 

PmjPmj

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"i created you to give my life meaning so you'd better be grateful. sorry about the whole lifelong slavery thing btw :S"

Lifelong slavery?

Fuck that.

"Happy 18th birthday kiddo. I know you've got some important decisions coming up, so here - take a massive hit of this DMT before you think any further on anything"

<Godhead>
 

Jennywocky

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Of course I thought about a lot about having kids before i did, but I thought I would be a good parent and it would be a net positive, not a net negative. (It's just I tend to be really edgy about commitments because I take them very seriously, and if I'm in, then I am all in. And like others have noted, you can't "preorder" a kid with the traits you want, you get who you get; each kid is an individual person, some might be physically healthy, some might not, some might mesh well with you, others might not, and so on...)

I will also admit that I had a shit family growing up, rife with alcoholism and marital problems. My sister and I were pretty resilient and stable but also haunted by that whole situation. I think I partly had children because I wanted another chance at a family that worked and to gain perhaps some of the closeness I had missed out on with my own parents. Of course my kids would be their own persons and if that didn't happen, so be it... but hope springs eternal I guess.

Anyway, we had considered adoption as well up front and planned to adopt kids. As it was, our first child was conceived after a whole year of trying, about the time we planned to quit and see a doctor; our second was unplanned and conceived the first time we had sex after the first arrived. Unfortunately, she had cystic fibrosis (a genetic illness), which meant we were also both carriers and didn't know.

(This was back in the 90's, before it was easier to screen; back then, you had to get specific tests done for specific ailments if they even had the test, pay out of pocket, and it was usually on the magnitude of a thousand dollars or more just for one test; cystic fibrosis was about a 1 in 2200 chance, so of course no one would really test for that. Nowadays, of course, you can spend $100-200 on a mail-order genetics test that will provide not just your genetic lineage but a number of the more prominent conditions like CF.)

Anyway, having a CF kid resulted in our adopting our third child. And we were happy with just three. The CF situation was a huge burden at first due to how the schedule will revolve around your child and you still have the rest of life to make work and other kids to care for. But you just deal with it and rise to the occasion.

I guess before you go into it, you do understand "once a parent, always a parent." I can never "unhave" my kids, and the ways I have been shaped by them to be their parent, well, that becomes part of who you are. For me, it helped my maturity level and taught me things about life I wouldn't have figured out if I had not been responsible for others besides myself. And it is good now. I no longer am married, and my kids are out of the house (19-22) years old), but I still look out for them and they know I am a refuge for them and a source of wisdom/information. We talk on the phone or get together for dinner twice a month (the ones who can). If they ever build families of their own, I am sure we will be even closer since they will be able to relate even more. And it's a hell of a lot of fun to play Cards Against Humanity together, watch movies, we're going on a trip next weekend together, etc. The eldest and I both love movies and have similar hobbies, so he's always texting me something or we're chatting about films or music or something. (He just watched Synodoche, New York and loved it; I watched it last night to keep up, I'm still trying to figure out what I think about it...)

So it hasn't been "slavery" for any of us; not all bonds have to be constrictive, this one is affirming and resilient.

But yeah, money things can be a little scary. I did work jobs I hated, to help my family and insurance and whatever else.
 

redbaron

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I think it's easy enough to tell when people say they don't want kids whether it's just teenager/young adult edginess or if it's actually well-reasoned.

Personally I could only have kids if I found someone who I approve of mothering my kids in the first place, but then if I found someone good enough for that...why interrupt that connection with some grotty little dickheads?

Ecologically speaking the world is overpopulated already, I consider it irresponsible to pollute the world with more of us.

Ethically I consider it irresponsible to bring more kids into the world when so many exist that are already being neglected. I'd rather adopt instead, for all its difficulty. Not to mention there's oh so many ways to be fucked up now - pick an addiction: porn, gaming, social media, drugs. Culture rife with invalidation and obsession over petty bullshit. Yuck.

As someone who thinks the world should have about 6.5billion less people I can't see myself wanting to add to the gene pool.
 

PmjPmj

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@Redbaron - my INTP mate uses the exact same reasoning.

All sound imo. I'm a selfish dickhead who wanted to push us that bit closer to the brink ¬.¬
 

onesteptwostep

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Yeah, I want kids. I like toddlers a lot for some reason, they make me smile. Like, I wonder how the world would be like as a kid, how they see the world, how they constantly discover, how they can laugh and smile easily, I think all that's fascinating and very interesting.

Having kids/marriage is not really on my radar though, but when the time comes I'd probably get kids, several if I can.

What worries me is that females who are hitting the age of 30 and beyond have a hard time conceiving, so an accelerated marriage for me is something that I've been thinking about. But then again there's always the option of marrying someone younger.

Personally I don't think any of the arguments against having children are compelling- but then again it's a personal choice so I'm not so vested in it- I have a pretty libertarian approach to that.
 

Jennywocky

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@Redbaron - my INTP mate uses the exact same reasoning.

All sound imo. I'm a selfish dickhead who wanted to push us that bit closer to the brink ¬.¬

Hey maybe a global reboot is What the World Needs Now. :D
 

PmjPmj

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Hey maybe a global reboot is What the World Needs Now. :D

Undecided.

I see things on the horizon which are equally liable to 'save' or destroy us.

We've had a reset before, I reckon. ~ 12k years ago.
 

Puffy

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Conceiving life is to me one of the most important decisions someone can make - it's not a light decision, and so I could only say I wanted children if I was really sure about it. I know if I ever decided to I'd take the responsibility seriously enough that I'd go all in and be a good Father, and that's a part of what wards me off. It still feels more like a sacrifice of what I'd have to give up than a blessing in of itself.

I don't think I want children, just because there's basically been no time in life in which I've desired it or fantasised about it. The only times have been in relation to someone I loved, but I'm unsure having children for your partner when it's not what you want deep down is a good reason.

I'm unsure I've developed, feel wholesome, or learnt to look after myself well enough that I want the responsibility or would be comfortable with someone 'inheriting' from me right now. This is potentially changeable as I develop, but I largely see reasons not to currently.
 

Hadoblado

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I think it's easy enough to tell when people say they don't want kids whether it's just teenager/young adult edginess or if it's actually well-reasoned.

Personally I could only have kids if I found someone who I approve of mothering my kids in the first place, but then if I found someone good enough for that...why interrupt that connection with some grotty little dickheads?

Ecologically speaking the world is overpopulated already, I consider it irresponsible to pollute the world with more of us.

Ethically I consider it irresponsible to bring more kids into the world when so many exist that are already being neglected. I'd rather adopt instead, for all its difficulty. Not to mention there's oh so many ways to be fucked up now - pick an addiction: porn, gaming, social media, drugs. Culture rife with invalidation and obsession over petty bullshit. Yuck.

As someone who thinks the world should have about 6.5billion less people I can't see myself wanting to add to the gene pool.

@Redbaron - my INTP mate uses the exact same reasoning.

All sound imo. I'm a selfish dickhead who wanted to push us that bit closer to the brink ¬.¬

See if I didn't know RB, I would dismiss that reasoning far easier than Adaire's.

It sounds exactly like rationalisation. Shifting the context to so global that individual decisions don't matter, but using this perspective to justify individual decisions. Does anyone really think that one additional person makes a difference to the 7.5 billion already here? Especially since, with the right upbringing, one person can do much more to improve the overpopulation problem than they contribute to it.

I'm not saying that RB is being disingenuous or anything. I'm saying it's weird you laugh inwardly at Adaire's statement while taking RB's at face value. It's bizarre to me.
 

majohnso

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I'm unsure I've developed, feel wholesome, or learnt to look after myself well enough that I want the responsibility or would be comfortable with someone 'inheriting' from me right now. This is potentially changeable as I develop, but I largely see reasons not to currently, not withstanding the state of the world and other arguments raised here.

thanks for this, my reasons have some similarity and additional reasons
 

redbaron

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I also think Adaire has better reasons than me. Or at least expresses them much more completely.

I do indeed think individual actions matter though Hado. The collective is the sum of its parts, and I think that more people could and should start to view their own actions as important, even if their relative impact is diluted by the sheer number of people in the world.

At one point it would have seemed ridiculous to let women vote, but it got there in the end. There's lots of things that seem insurmountable, and only become less so as more and more individuals decide to tackle them.

I believe the world is truly overpopulated in an ecological capacity and I find it selfish and immoral in the most absolute of ways to actually bring children into the world in light of knowing this.
 

Hadoblado

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I don't think we disagree. Maybe. I know you think individual actions matter, though I disagree with the way this math plays out.

Reproduction is a kind of social replication (even if I disagree with the notion that it should be). Your values are statistically propagated through your offspring. As is your capability (multiplied by your ability to rear healthy children). You are a capable person with values that you think should be more represented, and creating another person like you (even only if an increased chance of this) that will outlast you, has a greater chance of enacting the change you want to see in the world than not having children.

Your contribution to the problem is minuscule. The influence a capable person can have is not.

My position is not that overpopulation is insurmountable, but that it won't be solved by merely refusing to reproduce on an individual level.

But my post wasn't really about you, I didn't mean to drag us into a conversation. It's more that, when I see someone give your explanation, I am far more likely to think that something like what Adaire described is the reason (or lack of opportunity, or something else more personal). I don't expect people's ethical values on average to have as much of an impact on their life decisions as the practical issues in their lives such as a primal drive to have/not to have children. This is in stark contrast to PMJ's perception that if someone claims to not have the drive they probably do have it or will develop it, but if you have something that sounds like an ethical position you're bulletproof.

From you specifically I would give more weight to what you say about your reasoning because you do tend to walk consistent with your talk, though I still think your drive to have children is a far better predictor of planned reproduction than any personal belief system.

TLDR: The focus of my post was on the disparity between PMJ's perception and mine.
 

redbaron

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The single greatest predictor is intelligence really. Smarter people have less babies generally.

I'd assume it's because few people even think to challenge or consider their innate drives or desires. For a number of reasons I find the idea of having them wholly undesirable, even though I like kids.

I also have concerns with trying to raise someone to think like me - propagation of my ideas through children is low on my list of ways to reduce the problem of....having less kids :D

It also significantly weakens one's position about not overpopulating if...you know, you go and have kids :/
 

Polaris

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I have never desired children. When I was little, I did not enjoy playing with dolls - in fact, I destroyed them because I could not stand the empty, dumb look on their chubby little faces. Contrary to my female peers, I hated Barbie dolls the most. I would mutilate their eyes and cut their hair off. I would burn their bodies, or stab their eyes out with a pen or something. When I grew older I couldn't stand babies - I would do anything to avoid them, and I hated their crying and screaming.

A study suggested that girls who mutilate dolls are potentially destroying a redundant image of themselves:

"The most readily expressed reason for rejecting Barbie was that she was babyish, and girls saw her as representing their younger childhood out of which they felt they had now grown,"...

More info

As I grew older I watched my mother and all the other mothers in the little village I was living in. I thought they must be bored out of their brains, but perhaps I was projecting, because I was bored. All people seemed to care about was their little worlds. I wanted out and away - the sooner, the better.

I had boyfriends and later more serious relationships. I was married for 8 years, but we never talked about children as we were both highly independent types with our own goals and desires.

The marriage ended when I was 27 - we drifted apart because we were already living separate lives. I was in a couple of longer relationships after that, but they ended. The factor of me not wanting children became a serious problem as I got older, and partners tried to nail me on the topic, which I tended to avoid at all cost.

I realised I had to avoid relationships because I became a source of pain and I was wasting people's time with me.

I just could not do it - everything in me screamed no.

It wasn't just the commitment issue. It was the idea of the huge responsibility that I could not even fathom. I did not want to be the one that ended up stuck with a couple of kids when my husband left me. I have never believed that two people could spend all their lives together, so why should I carry the burden, only to get stuck with it later when the relationship fizzled out? What about the kids? It all seemed like the biggest nightmare.

The other thing that worried me, apart from the self-preservation issue was that I did not think I would ever be a good mother. I just did not feel anything around children. I did not like them - I am still hesitant to admit that, but it was true.

I used to have nightmares of being pregnant. The idea of pregnancy was repulsive. And I feared all the potential things that could go wrong. To have my body subjected to all that pain and distortion, no way.

I have never been the sort of person who would value children higher than grown ups. My mother put all children on a pedestal, and I could not understand why. The whole "women and children first" thing used to puzzle and irritate me, because if the world was already over populated, why should we bother with this outdated, desperate life-propagating brainwash?

I am not disputing Hado's point here - in fact, I am agreeing with the point on social replication. I don't want more Me's.

I am talking about personal choice. I had a responsibility, first and foremost to myself. Secondly, I would never forgive myself for bringing someone into this fucked world if I could not even take responsibility, or be a good mother to them. Thirdly, the world did not need my fucked up genetic contribution. I don't even like my own family, that may have had a significant impact, and I am aware of that, in case some smartass decides to be condescending to me on that point.

I am 47, and I have never regretted not having children. If I had the choice again, it would be the same. I see too many families broken up, and too many lost kids out there.

There is a part of me - the lost and angry child that wants to save them all. I want to stop all the circular abuse and madness.

I can't. All I can do is to be responsible for my own life.
 

TheManBeyond

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seems like a wrong idea, like really wrong in many aspects, starting by to live is to die.
live together, die alone.
 

PmjPmj

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I'm saying it's weird you laugh inwardly at Adaire's statement while taking RB's at face value. It's bizarre to me.

I swear you people can't fucking read.

In the first instance I was speaking very generally about people I have known personally. I agreed that Adaire's reasons for not wanting children were perfectly valid - noting that it had nothing to do with me at all, but 'FWIW' I thought her reasons were sound.

Agreeing with RB was more of a tongue in cheek thing, but I can see how that's lost in translation.

Jesus. You people kill me.
 

Hadoblado

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When I see people respond to specific comments in a specific way but directed universally, I roll my eyes and laugh inwardly. Not you, obviously. In general. Other people that do it. Not you.
 

PmjPmj

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Way to gloss over the part where we explore the reasoning and I completely agree with it.

You're splitting hairs for the sake of creating discussion. It's a waste of time.

The issue has been long sorted; stop kicking up dirt. Nothing better to do, dearest?
 

redbaron

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Hado is my most favouritest dirt kicker-upperer. When he kicks the dirt I cheer:

"Hado, hado he's our man!
If he can't kick up dirt in a diplomatically offensive inoffensively direct way, no one can!"
 

crippli

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My probably only failure in life, to not have made children. And it's actually starting to hunt me, physically. But I don't consider it my fault. It's actually technology. I'd have plenty of children, if not for protection, pills and all those things. So I don't know. I feel I did my duty. I can't control everything. But. The train is far from gone. Like heritage, who will you give your riches to.


But From what I've learned. The meaninglessness of it all gets to me. All these older woman I am surrounded by, who have pretty much only one guiding pole in their life. The children and the family. Actually makes me sick to the bone. And it's not that, but what they are willing to do, and overrun, to secure their meaning of life. And don't even see it.
 

washti

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@crippli It seems like you want to have them. How about adoption? And why you see this as a failure? Is that talk about not being women when without kids got to you? (you are woman right?)

@ polaris - thanks for sharing your story I dont often meet females who openly talk abot fear of pregnancy. It was kind of soothing.

Did you somethimes get angry on man when they talk about "having" children? I know its oversensitve and rude but I really have that thoughts that they really dont care about what females is going through and talk about having kids like produced in vaccum. But yeah I probably have just butthurt here. So nvmd.
 

crippli

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No. I have only a drive to reproduce myself. But I'm not love material. It takes two to make children. And I have performed really low grade in every relationship I have been in.

And there is this huge conflict inside of there already being far to many people on this planet.

I am certainly a woman. But I think I'm almost as much a man. There is no doubt I got some real masculine tendencies from time to time. But femininity is more of constant. Like when one is at ease. But I don't think that's relevant. The body function as it should if a compatible partner was to exist that was accepting of my quirks. And that partner have not dared yet to tag along the required length of my social retardation.

And I do think it is a tragedy. I have pretty much everything else that is required for stress free child raising at this point.

I do not consider raising kids to have anything to do with either man or woman. It's more a gift I would like to give humanity. And of course, if one does a good job. a reliable helping hand if one is to get old. That would not be expected, but certainly a boon if it where to happen.
 

redbaron

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washti said:
Did you somethimes get angry on man when they talk about "having" children? I know its oversensitve and rude but I really have that thoughts that they really dont care about what females is going through and talk about having kids like produced in vaccum. But yeah I probably have just butthurt here. So nvmd.

I think you're pretty much right though, and that few men do actually care about what females are going through/what they sacrifice and yeah, women in many places in the world are just seen as incubating broodmares.

It's very shitty really and if it makes me angry (I'm not even a female) then I don't see why it wouldn't make you angry.
 

peoplesuck

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waaay wayy down the line i might adopt. Its like what puffy said, developing into a suitable parent first.
 

Puffy

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waaay wayy down the line i might adopt. Its like what puffy said, developing into a suitable parent first.

I'm amazed that humanity has propagated as far as it has, as I'm unsure a great deal of people I've met are suitable parents. It's a cause of a lot of unnecessary suffering, as I think the most damage is done to someone in their formative years. That's certainly been the case of most hurt people I've known, and they're not very easy wounds to heal.

It's possible I'm overly self-critical but it's more out of cautiousness. Both my parents were injured by their upbringings, as were their parents, and me and my sibling were injured by ours. I have no desire to beget suffering onto others unless I'm confident I have the ability to prevent it. In that respect, I see taking responsibility to heal oneself, and generate wholeness within oneself, as a kind of preparation for parenting - as it's then you know that you have the ability to beget a wholesome environment for someone to grow up in.
 

PmjPmj

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Parenting is a clusterfuck. You just have to hit the ground running and do the best you can. Anyone who tells you that it's easy or a joy has either been blessed with angelic offspring or likes to lie through their teeth.
 

Jennywocky

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so here is a question, after reading many of the responses:

A number of people have said they would wait (if have kids at all) until they are a "suitable parent."

What does that mean, exactly? What's the criteria where you can one day say, "Okay, I think I am a suitable parent now?" Especially considering you wouldn't yet have been a parent, so... how would you recognize it? There must be some definition or list of qualities that would help someone believe that, yes, now is the time and they can be trusted being a parent.

Or is there a negative list where having too many qualities would exclude one from good parenthood, so when the list is reduced/gone, then maybe parenthood is a possibility?

(... Things are complicated too by the fact that often one will learn and change "on the job" and there is knowledge you might not have and qualities you won't possess deeply enough until you simply submit to the process. A kid is learning how to be a kid, and a parent is typically learning how to be a parent simultaneously; neither have done it before. This is why non-parent adults will often feel overwhelmed if they "marry into parenthood" -- i.e., a partner with children already. They have had no time to incrementally learn.)

This isn't rhetorical, it would just be interesting to see what this list of qualities or benchmarks would be, in general.
 

Ex-User (14663)

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At the very least, I would want to be financially established and have attained good practical experience with the world. I mean, my parents were young, non-established, working-class people. The financial situation eventually destroyed the relationship, none of them had any stable income anywhere and thus were forced to moved around. I went to like 5 different schools before I reached the age of 8, never really felt at home anywhere, etc. An interesting experience, for sure, but it's an.. acquired taste, to put it mildly.

Come to think of it, that lack of a stable childhood and affiliation to any place or people is probably the cause of my fear of attachment and various other maladaptions.
 

peoplesuck

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so here is a question, after reading many of the responses:

A number of people have said they would wait (if have kids at all) until they are a "suitable parent."

What does that mean, exactly? What's the criteria where you can one day say, "Okay, I think I am a suitable parent now?" Especially considering you wouldn't yet have been a parent, so... how would you recognize it? There must be some definition or list of qualities that would help someone believe that, yes, now is the time and they can be trusted being a parent.

Or is there a negative list where having too many qualities would exclude one from good parenthood, so when the list is reduced/gone, then maybe parenthood is a possibility?

(... Things are complicated too by the fact that often one will learn and change "on the job" and there is knowledge you might not have and qualities you won't possess deeply enough until you simply submit to the process. A kid is learning how to be a kid, and a parent is typically learning how to be a parent simultaneously; neither have done it before. This is why non-parent adults will often feel overwhelmed if they "marry into parenthood" -- i.e., a partner with children already. They have had no time to incrementally learn.)

This isn't rhetorical, it would just be interesting to see what this list of qualities or benchmarks would be, in general.

My little list

Must be financially stable. which does not mean working 90 hours a week at mcdonalds. cmon give the kid a future
have an idea of what you will be doing in the future.
be in a place you would be happy to stay bc moving all over the place screws with a kids ability to bond with others.
BE able to accept your child EVEN if they dont turn out like you.
have a child for valid reasons like yknow to help give another human a chance at life.which only goes for adoption bc i dont understand having biological chillins.
have the ability to empathize, dont be addicted to drugs.
make sure you have time to raise a kid.
make sure you are happy with yourself.
dont have a kid to fill a void.
READ A FUCKING BOOK OR TWO ON RAISING CHILDREN.
IF you are completely maladapted and a fuckup maybe dont have a kid.
have a community of individuals to have around your child.
have an idea of how you want to raise them. research on your parenting ideas to make sure they arent damaging.
have your life sorted out.
get control over yourself, and your anger.
in general be a functioning person with a life and job because your kid will take after you.

did i miss anything?
 

majohnso

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It's possible I'm overly self-critical but it's more out of cautiousness. Both my parents were injured by their upbringings, as were their parents, and me and my sibling were injured by ours. I have no desire to beget suffering onto others unless I'm confident I have the ability to prevent it. In that respect, I see taking responsibility to heal oneself, and generate wholeness within oneself, as a kind of preparation for parenting - as it's then you know that you have the ability to beget a wholesome environment for someone to grow up in.

this is another big reason why i ask the question, as i feel the same.

i think you should only bring someone into the world when you can be assured they will get a fair chance and not for the selfish reasons many do

i think as more ponder the question, less have....but most, as its biological, dont question it.....
 

washti

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Those lists are both very good and sadly pointless. You can make them endless.
You cant be assured that your children will have fair chance.
This is mostly out of control. Even if you accumulated all handy resouces
you still dont know from which angle shit emerge in life to fuck you over and your kid.
And how long it will take to be prepared? When you will tell enouth I'm done? If you yourself have some advantages on start maybe it will not take much time - given list of requairments isnt very long.

Do it or not. For me its too risky - prospects for payoffs are minimal.
 
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No, never wanted kids. Terrified of it actually... I can barely manage myself, much less another person or child who needs all my time and resources. I already see the challenges and some of the truths I have come to realize would really bother me and make raising a child too difficult for me.

the thought of losing my freedom to do what I want, when I want to do it is scary for me. If it happened to me, i would have to accept, adapt and be the best I could be. As far as wanting, heeell no.
 
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