INTP and empathy

[Staywhatyouare]

Hey guys, I'm new here, I just recently was convinced to take the Myers-Briggs test by my dad (an INTP), and discovered I was an INTP as well. I immediately found myself fascinated with the way it describes my personality traits, strengths and weakness. I'm actually becoming so engrossed with studying the topic that I'm fairly certain I'm going to double major in psych (something I was already considering minoring in).

I have a question regarding INTPs and their ability to empathize. Although I definitely do not rely on my emotions and consider myself an extremely logic oriented person, I find that I have this talent for understanding how people feel, being able to talk to them about their problems and giving them sound advice. I am completely inadept at expressing my own feelings and often wrestle with my own emotions, but for some reason i'm able to understand the emotional problems of others almost effortlessly. I also find that I actually enjoy this, I think that talking with others about their problems helps me avoid dealing with my own.

I have a wide circle of acquaintances and close circle of a few really good friends, and I was just thinking about how I probably don't come off as an INTP to 90% of the people that know me. I'm very adept at hiding my true feelings around others as I have strong dislike for conflict. I do know that INTPs are known for their ability to act as a " Chameleon", do you think this is the main factor? The other possibility is that in the couple of tests I've taken, my " feeling" versus " thinking" nearly always comes out split 50 50, or slightly in favor of thinking. Do you think this high feeling quotient relates to my ability for empathy? ( which I assumed wasn't a normal INTP trait, correct me if wrong). Any thoughts or advice you guys have would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

 

[Chimera]

I'm interested in an answer for this as well, 'cause I'm pretty much the same way.
For myself (I don't know about your situation), I think my Ti and Fe functions are both almost equally developed; what makes me edge toward thinking I'm INTP is that in situations not dealing with people, I'm definitely Ti oriented. I definitely get what you mean about understanding other peoples' emotions though.
-shrugs- The Myers-Briggs system can't really divide the entire population perfectly into one of 16 categories. It can give an overall idea, but there are always people who hover at the edges.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. ^^

 

[Staywhatyouare]

I'm interested in an answer for this as well, 'cause I'm pretty much the same way.
For myself (I don't know about your situation), I think my Ti and Fe functions are both almost equally developed; what makes me edge toward thinking I'm INTP is that in situations not dealing with people, I'm definitely Ti oriented. I definitely get what you mean about understanding other peoples' emotions though.
-shrugs- The Myers-Briggs system can't really divide the entire population perfectly into one of 16 categories. It can give an overall idea, but there are always people who hover at the edges.

Oh, and welcome to the forum. ^^

Glad to know there's someone else out there with a similar dilemma. Do you find that you identify with INFPs to a certain extent? I know I do. I definitely have the idealist or dreamer aspect of INFPs, but I think what keeps me from being one is that fact that in the end I refuse to make my final decisions based on emotions. Logic always has the final say.

And thanks, I think I'll like it here haha.

 

[Chimera]

in the end I refuse to make my final decisions based on emotions. Logic always has the final say.

^Yep, also very true for me as well. Sometimes I end up using my emotions in order to establish my logic though; how that works, I have no idea. But eventually everything comes back to logic.

 

[Staywhatyouare]

^Yep, also very true for me as well. Sometimes I end up using my emotions in order to establish my logic though; how that works, I have no idea. But eventually everything comes back to logic.

I think I know what you mean. When analyzing a situation or a problem I feel that in order to make the best conclusion it is necessary consider the presence of emotions, because no matter how irrational they may be, they are there and definitely influence us. Therefore to disregard emotion completely as if it is irrelevant could be seen as illogical. However considering the effects of emotion is merely a part of the larger thought process which is always grounded completely in logic.

 

[Spud147]

Wow, great choice of topic. I am also able to empathize very easily with other people and can even sort of feel what they feel. But sometimes I think I understand feelings with other people because I've learned over the years what that "feeling" is supposed to look like. Like so many other parts of my life it's like I read a book that told me what it's like to feel sad, mad, etc.

The weird part is that I trust myself to know what to do when other people need comfort (and usually I can identify when people need that... especially if they're crying, hah!) but I don't trust my own emotions/feelings enough to know if I'm acting appropriately in reaction to a situation.

I don't know if this is a common feeling but as an INTP I'm aware that I have limitations when it comes to emotions so I have to thoroughly analyze the situation (sometimes for hours/days) before I can decide how I feel about it... I don't trust my immediate reactions because I've felt like they were considered "wrong" by co-workers/supervisors.

I am easy going and flexible enough that the very few times I've actually gotten really mad about something the person on the receiving end was shocked at how strongly I felt about the situation.

 

[Da Blob]

I am completely inadept at expressing my own feelings and often wrestle with my own emotions, but for some reason i'm able to understand the emotional problems of others almost effortlessly. I also find that I actually enjoy this, I think that talking with others about their problems helps me avoid dealing with my own.

I have a wide circle of acquaintances and close circle of a few really good friends, and I was just thinking about how I probably don't come off as an INTP to 90% of the people that know me. I'm very adept at hiding my true feelings around others


Hmmmm, where I have I heard that before,
i became a counselor, it a route you might consider...

We are individuals, so any classifications into a mere 16 categories is inherently imprecise.
However, If you hang around you will discover those of 'like minds' on this forum
which can be a rather refreshing source of self-validation

 

[Ermine]

I see where you're coming from. I am pretty good at telling what people are feeling. However, this isn't true empathy. I can't feel what others are feeling and truly stand in somebody else's shoes.

 

[MrJones]

I see where you're coming from. I am pretty good at telling what people are feeling. However, this isn't true empathy. I can't feel what others are feeling and truly stand in somebody else's shoes.

Agreed, this is clearly common with INTP's. Because we're able to understand complex systems, we're able to do this; i believe. The reason we're such good 'counselors' I'd have to guess, is that we're able to sit and listen (all the while analyzing), WITHOUT all these emotions running through us. We DON'T have the empathy for what they've done or had done to them, but we process the facts none the less.
They end up appreciating our help because they just received a LOGICAL approach to their 'problem'. Not because we were able to walk a mile in their shoes.

sorry, my 2cents.

 

[bealert]

[

quote=MrJones;36449]Agreed, this is clearly common with INTP's. Because we're able to understand complex systems, we're able to do this; i believe. The reason we're such good 'counselors' I'd have to guess, is that we're able to sit and listen (all the while analyzing), WITHOUT all these emotions running through us. We DON'T have the empathy for what they've done or had done to them, but we process the facts none the less.
They end up appreciating our help because they just received a LOGICAL approach to their 'problem'. Not because we were able to walk a mile in their shoes.

Great explanation.
Sometimes I find people don't want this kind of help tho. They just want someone to sit in the puddle with them and share the pain. I'm not so good at that...

 

[MrJones]

[Great explanation.
Sometimes I find people don't want this kind of help tho. They just want someone to sit in the puddle with them and share the pain. I'm not so good at that...

Not at all. In fact it pretty much disgusts me. I lose any/all respect for people in moments like that. Misery enjoying company. Adapt. Overcome.

 

[adastrac]

Glad to know there's someone else out there with a similar dilemma. Do you find that you identify with INFPs to a certain extent? I know I do. I definitely have the idealist or dreamer aspect of INFPs, but I think what keeps me from being one is that fact that in the end I refuse to make my final decisions based on emotions. Logic always has the final say.

And thanks, I think I'll like it here haha.

I've always wondered about this too! And I'm definitely a split between INTP and INFP (more to the thinking side though). It's a bit cirumstantial, too.

 

[Perseus]

^Yep, also very true for me as well. Sometimes I end up using my emotions in order to establish my logic though; how that works, I have no idea. But eventually everything comes back to logic.

This can leave you empty inside, if you leave out emotions. Then you are Turtle.

I have a green Turtle in my garden which my neighbour has threatened to kill me unless I get rid of it. She has called all the authorities over her problem. I have warned her off by smashing her discards to bits with an axe.

I want a live Snapper Turtle to eat her black Cat. With a bit of luck I should be able to find some venomous Snakes. Not many types in England. She is terrified of worms.

 

[Ancalion]

I find myself in these situations very often, and my friends (no close friends) say that i am a good listener and can give good advice about emotions/feelings. But when it comes to me, i can't say that i have feelings (not for persons anyways). My feelings are like my thoughts, chaotic, widely spread and i can love and hate in some degree at the same time.
Anyone got problems with the opposite sex saying that you are just a machine, without any real feelings? A girl said that i can't really feel anything, but i have to mimic some just to feel human.

 

[AndOhh]

...'stuff'...

I feel the same way -- when in discussion with people I can almost always read precisely how they feel and often what they are thinking about something but not saying (No not psychic). Likewise I find I am able to empathize with little effort.

I think I can give pretty sound advise -- although this advise is usually just the logical truism that the persons emotions seem to hide from them.

I recall having this ability as a child growing up (being able to read people).

I have actually been interested to see whether other INTPs found this to be the case.

 

[Ermine]

Anyone got problems with the opposite sex saying that you are just a machine, without any real feelings? A girl said that i can't really feel anything, but i have to mimic some just to feel human.

YES! It's even worse for INTP girls. Guys in general already have a penchant for being somewhat insensitive. For girls, they are expected to be the empathetic ones, so my "lack of feelings" gets me in even more trouble. There have been countless times when I accidentally hurt someone's feelings, especially guys, due to my lack of sensitivity. I can also relate to having to fake it in order to feel human.

 

[Jesin]

\I have this talent for understanding how people feel, being able to talk to them about their problems and giving them sound advice. I am completely inadept at expressing my own feelings and often wrestle with my own emotions, but for some reason i'm able to understand the emotional problems of others almost effortlessly.

You are most certainly not the first person here to say that.

 

[Da Blob]

I find myself in these situations very often, and my friends (no close friends) say that i am a good listener and can give good advice about emotions/feelings. But when it comes to me, i can't say that i have feelings (not for persons anyways). My feelings are like my thoughts, chaotic, widely spread and i can love and hate in some degree at the same time.
Anyone got problems with the opposite sex saying that you are just a machine, without any real feelings? A girl said that i can't really feel anything, but i have to mimic some just to feel human.

I have been haunted by the words "Why can't I reach you" for quite a while now

 

[Ancalion]

Well i found my solution to empathy problems: don't have any. Abolish any kind of feelings towards people. I'm in my first year of doing that. And it's pretty good so far.

 

[Enlightenstorm]

I can have empathy but i prefer not using it as it clouds thought. Emotions stop u from making good logical decisions.
But the empathy i have is different from normal. When facing other peoples problem i can see, understand their problems almost like walking in their shoes but i wont feel their pain or the stress. >.<

When frds talk to me about their problems most of the time it is more useful just to listen than trying to solve their problems tht is wht (most) people want.

 

[Minuend]

I recall having this ability as a child growing up (being able to read people).

I remember I were very aware of people's face expressions when I were young. I could tell by looking at them that I said something stupid/ offensive. (I was a bit blunt as a child as well). I guess this ability is partly what made me more of a chameleon. Many times through life, I've had to change my personality to fit in. I had to be careful about what I said, because I had a tendency to be unintentionally rude. I've gotten better at it, though.

I can somewhat understand what people are thinking and feeling, but I don't feel what they feel. I'm not the best advice- giver. I don't know if it's because people don't like logic in those situations, or if it's because I don't have enough "empathic insight". I'm no expert at emotions, but I learn little by little. I won't say I'm a robot, 'cause I am able to show enthusiasm when I'm excited. Just not excessively. I don't feel comfortable showing too much emotions. I can't explain why, but it feels a bit cliche, and for some reason, I really dislike that. I don't understand it either. And when I show my emotions too openly, I usually regret it afterwards. I think it makes me look like a fool. Which is probably an irrational thought (?). I guess it depends on the situation.


EDIT: Actually, I am able to empathize if I make the effort. In some cases anyways.

 

[FacetiousPersona]

It would not be unexpectd to discover that a deficiency with empathy is correlated with being INTP. Their strong processes are not emotional in nature, probably hindering the development of empathy. Essentially, when an INTP does not innately have good empathy, they will require experience with it to develop it. However, with their main processes, empathy does not have an opportunity to flourish frequently.

 

[Cobra]

@Staywhatyouare: We are alike.

An earlier post describes empathy to be something more than the ability to experience emotion. This, I believe, is true. To empathize with someone is to feel what they feel WITH them. If your mate is sad, you would empathize with him by actually becoming sad alongside him, rather than to recognize that he's sad easily. I think your (and my) ability to recognize quickly what someone is feeling is just a high ability to feel matched with our inherent INTP penchant for understanding complexity. It could be our chameleon-like nature, or it could be nurture vs. nature.

I know that I've had troubles in the past actually being able to imagine what it would be like to feel the way someone is feeling, but I never had trouble understanding why or that they do.

Also interesting is my propensity to be emotional. I am an INTP, so it shouldn't come so simply to me, but sometimes I am hypersensitive when someone is trying to hurt me. Or maybe it's that my principles are being violated, and that's what makes me emotional in certain situations. Maybe my appreciation for the principles I've built up around me is such that it transmogrifies INTO love or hate when things don't go my way or the opposite. Normally, the regular negativity al a carte, I find, is easy to brush off. If anything, it just puts a dent in my ego (which I do well to supress; I detest inflated egos, and I so I try hard to keep myself on a level peg with "down to earth" people). I've found that it's much more difficult to find something to love about everything; even the things I hate (i.e. Brittney Spears' song Toxic... not so much anymore, but at the time, you could imagine the whispers when I would say, "This song doesn't make me vomit...").

Perhaps the fact that I've chosen a more difficult outlook on life is actually just a part of my INTP nature. We're known for doing things the hard way (or "our" way, rather, which whether it is harder or easier never seems to be a factor in whether we do it in that way).

So, perhaps you're just learned? Or maybe you match the profile to a tee.

My inability to empathize with my wife's allergies has put me in many a tight squeezes. Sorry, honey.

 

[Mud~Eye]

I don't think we need to feel what someone is feeling at the very same moment that they are in order to empathize effectively. I've been told by a licensed therapist (haha), who is descently knowledgable, that the best way for me to empathize was to listen to the other person and then recall (to myself) a time in my own life when I have felt the same way. Then, and only then, should I open my mouth and attempt to say anything at all. At that point, I am to validate their feelings, which is suppose to be made easier by recalling a time when i had those same feelings, regardless of the reason for having them. Anyone else ever heard this, practiced this, and/or gotten results?

As a child, I had feelings, I felt them, they were real and expressed. But after some training and painful experiences, not so much, until I got older, and especially recently. Question for other INTPs, do you find it difficult to receive the type of comfort offered by most people? I think, for me, that unless someone understands why I am hurting, I just can't accept that they can give anything meaningful. I've tried to recieve comfort from others emotionally, but it doesn't get there, unless they are capable of guiding me toward problem solving, or analyzing the problem, seeking the truth, tossing out the garbage, etc.... To me, that is comforting. Anyone else?

 

[Cobra]

I don't think we need to feel what someone is feeling at the very same moment that they are in order to empathize effectively.

This is very true. I made it a little too precise, but the meaning is retained. Though the practice of attempting to recollect a moment in your own history all in the faith of empathizing seems a bit tedious to me, it definitely sounds practical for situations where you're having trouble. I think it would be a useful tool for myself and for other INTPs. I think that this is somewhat of a simple machine, though, and is not something everyone has to do. Some people can just hear about something, and immediately they can feel the same way without ever having it happen to them.

Question for other INTPs, do you find it difficult to receive the type of comfort offered by most people?

YES. I find that, even through all my bull shit that I just spouted pretending to understand "empathy," I give little or no credit to people and their advice when they haven't experienced the same hardship or success that I have. I just had this conversation with a great friend of mine.

My wife often regards my sociological and professional anguishes as mundane unless she can dissect them and advise me on them. If a problem is complex, and I just need to talk about it (or "bitch," as its probably more commonly termed as), she doesn't want to hear it. Usually when she gives me advice, I spend a humorous (not so much to her) amount of time debunking her answers and coming up with reasons why it "wouldn't work" or "isn't that simple."

In all honesty, most of her advice is pretty sound! But unless someone has gone through the same steps as I have to get there (some [cough, my wife, cough]might call this "holding one's hand"), it seems irrelevent. It's rather pathetic! I hate/love myself.

Someone I once thought I had fallen in love with told me something really special once (right before she told me that she had just made things "official" with another friend of mine... Ug...): "Sometimes the excuses aren't excuses. Sometimes... *shrug*... they're reasons."

To this day, this is still the most cherished advice I've ever received.

 

[Mud~Eye]

I think that this is somewhat of a simple machine, though, and is not something everyone has to do. Some people can just hear about something, and immediately they can feel the same way without ever having it happen to them.

I thought it sounded simple too. Try it, you many change your mind. The problem for me is that unless there is a "sound" reason for them to feel a certain way, I've got trouble empathizing. If they're hurt when something was fair, overall, I'm like, well....okay, then? It's really stupid, because my feelings don't always make sense, do they? (you know I suspect that some how, some way they do, but I could be wrong). Anyway, I think it's good advise for an INTP, and I suspect my therapist knew that. I just found out about MBTI, but you know, people like to keep shit to themselves, I guess. (Now, I'm going to have to ask him).

Re: "Sometimes the excuses aren't excuses. Sometimes... *shrug*... they're reasons.""
And, that one can get you where it hurts, huh? It's something to think about (though it probably doesn't really make sense, I'll spin it around a few times, I'm sure).

 

[sagewolf]

Though the practice of attempting to recollect a moment in your own history all in the faith of empathizing seems a bit tedious to me, it definitely sounds practical for situations where you're having trouble. I think it would be a useful tool for myself and for other INTPs. I think that this is somewhat of a simple machine, though, and is not something everyone has to do.

I've tried that: I didn't really achieve anything. I'm good at giving advice, I think, and I'm good at reassuring people. I'm very good at just shutting up and listening if someone wants to moan about what they're going through. I don't know if those people want you to "sit in the puddle and share the pain" so much as they want to be reassured that someone is willing to listen to their problems and they don't have to deal with it on their own. Since I hate it when that method above is used on me, for the same reasons that Cobra mentioned, I wish very often that someone would just sit down, shut up and listen to me for once.

 

[Cobra]

Interestingly related: I found that in responding to this post, I discovered a strong discrepancy in my MBTI profile when compared to myself thanks to Staywhatyouare.

I've always had some deficiency in the tools of empathy, but I've never been what one might call emotionally bankrupt. I am unsure of what significance this is to my actual personality, but I retook the MBTI test on mypersonality.info. It came up INFP this time. Here's why:

In some situations I am forced to make a decision that conflicts with my personality. From reading Swya's post, I realized this. While retaking the test, I found that some of the questions could have swayed either way for me. I used the empathy tool that Mud~Eye reccommended and recalled specific events where Thinking and Feeling were challenged in my life. I retook the test 3 times quickly (I didn't want to linger on the questions for too long for fear that I might affect the outcome by remembering what I chose the last time). The first retake was INFP, the second was INTP, and the third was INFP again. My initial exam was INTP, so at this point I'm on the fence.

This test is obviously not the end-all say-all for personality types (that much is obvious). But it certainly was interesting that my lack of identification with the "cold robotic thinker" that the purebred INTP is was, in a sense, compensated for in the description of the INFP.

There are many more attributes of the INTP that I identify with, but what I was missing from INTP, I found in INFP. I've noticed stark contrasts in the different personality types just by changing only one of the four facets (ENTP vs. INTP = big dif), but with INTP vs. INFP, I've only noticed one thing, and that's that INFPs are like the impractical INTPs. Where INTPs are drifting along in their clouds of thought, the INFPs are doing the same only with feelings invited to the party. And INFPs might be more inclined to call the thoughts in their head "a party" as opposed to what an INTP might call "a meeting." I, evidently, reserve the right to say that being that I've now discovered I'm a part of both groups.

 

[Ermine]

This test is obviously not the end-all say-all for personality types (that much is obvious). But it certainly was interesting that my lack of identification with the "cold robotic thinker" that the purebred INTP is was, in a sense, compensated for in the description of the INFP.

Perhaps I'm saying this because I'm leaning against the fence rather than sitting on it, I don't think to be an INTP means to be emotionally bankrupt. Everyone is emotional. We all just deal with it in different ways. And the "cold robotic thinker" stereotype isn't a fair generalization for INTPs, just the ones on the far ends of the spectrum that somewhat blend into the aspie/autistic category. T/F doesn't really compare our level of emotion as much as it does how we make decisions/process things, whether we think with our heads or hearts.

 

[Cobra]

I don't think to be an INTP means to be emotionally bankrupt... ...And the "cold robotic thinker" stereotype isn't a fair generalization for INTPs...

Please excuse my generalizations. I was being presumptuous when I thought that it would be applied in the way that I had intended it by everyone.

The thing that had me questioning my MBTI results was the seemingly prideful way that some INTPs have taken in their ability to explain why they don't have relationships or do not empathize. Some people in this category have simply stated "I don't have issues with empathy because I don't empathize" (in so many words). It's rather sad if not comedic. You, however, Ermine, were not intended to be rolled into the same INTP burrito to be bitten by my mouthy reply. That was not your fault.

Varying percentages in the faux MBTI test on mypersonality.info are supposed to indicate how dramatically one experiences personality influence in the given fields. However, some of the questions appear to be curved...

When retaking the test, I've found that the questions that influence my T/F results drastically affect the outcome with a difference (seemingly) in only one or two answers. I've found it difficult to single out the questions in a way that borderlines my personality. When I answer the questions quickly, I end up far to either end of the spectrum of T/F; the closest I've come to the middle is 50%. I've now taken the test 8 times (and it's starting to lose its impartiality since I'm starting to remember the questions), and I've come up INTP 5 of those times and INFP 3.

Could it be that certain questions in the test affect more than one facet of the acronymous result? I'm only able to single out a few very cut and dry T/F questions on mypersonality.info's version of the test.