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INTP and anger, anyone else?

Sweetheart

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I'd say I'm usually fairly easy-going, chill, *except when something crosses my threshold, and then I explode. I see this the most with my own kids. It can be challenging to keep sane with two 7 year old boys.. I feel like I'm very angry probably once a day.

Is this normal, or do I really have anger issues? I know you all aren't mental health professionals. . Just wondering if anyone else knows what I'm talking about.
 

Architect

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Typical for INTP's. My sister called me "anal explosive" according to a in vogue pop psych theory of the time. It's indicative of an Fe inferior, which is immature and undeveloped. Think of it as a child throwing a tantrum.

Normal, just be aware of it and develop your dominant/auxiliary/tertiary and the inferior will go along for the ride.
 

nanook

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the five acting up as a commanding eight (enneagram), to cover up a feeling of being overwhelmed. the five fears the intrusion of alien motivations. intrusion is often active behavior coming from other people, but it can also be their neediness or incompetence or reluctance. the five will stay call im the face of obvious intrusion, attacks, but he fails to recognize intrusion when it's preceded by his own involvement or commitment, his attempt to be responsible for what others do. a failure to be truly independent in his intentions.

the nine can become fairly accusative but they are not so likely to loose control, they basically suffer from their own anger.


just two random patterns that come to mind.
 

Lot

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I used to have a big problem with adult temper tantrums.I had my periods when I got better, but they tended to happen at work the most. I also noticed that they were often related to panic attacks.

Instead of responding in fear, I would usually channel it into anger. Anger is something I'm much more comfortable with. I don't think I did this consciously. I was also a cry baby until I got laughed at by all the males in my 8th grade class. Then I just stopped playing sports and anything that involves skill that people would judge me about. They taunted me into tears, and I was on their team. Children are cruel.

I've rage quit several jobs in my time. First time was pizza hut, in 2008 I think. I walked out after a corporate guy came and told me to cut my beard. It pissed me off so I quit. I also quit at my last job in a fit of anger. I threw my money in the new shift manager's face. I hate opiate junkies and I hate incompetent managers. After have a series of bad deliveries and no pot to calm me down, I snapped. It was more than that, but that was the initial trigger. At least once a week I was yelling about someone's incompetency that inconvenienced me. Seriously, how can you be too stupid and lazy to make a pizza right and in time? It take such little effort.

I've been a lot better. I've done a lot of self reflection and have been adjusting my attitude. Trying to catch myself, before blowing up. So far I've done alright. But cannabis really has helped me just chill out. Working with a solid crew doesn't hurt either. Only almost slipped up once, and I didn't even use pot that time. Had to remind myself that everyone makes mistakes and no one was out to get me (even though it happened twice in a row :beatyou:)

There is a caring, rational voice in my mind that I should listen to more often.
 

eagor

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Had to remind myself that everyone makes mistakes and no one was out to get me (even though it happened twice in a row :beatyou:)

once is a fluke
twice you should go into observation mode
three times makes them an asshole :beatyou:

Other then that listen to architect, nanook and lot, they know what they're talking about.
 

QuickTwist

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Yup, I usually tolerate things well for a while and then I explode. IDK if that's and INTP thing or not.
 

Analyzer

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Yup, I usually tolerate things well for a while and then I explode. IDK if that's and INTP thing or not.

Yeah I think it is a TP thing in general especially ITP's. Ti dominant is usually composed then Fe inferior can come out.

I have experienced problems with this but have gotten better through the years.
 

QuickTwist

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Don't take me for an example, there is a decent chance I am not INTP. I don't really know what my type is and I doubt I will ever know for sure because... reasons.
 

StevenM

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I can relate to everything here.

I often get into little fits as well. I hate how it hijacks reason. After I blow off the steam, I look back and realize my errors in thinking.

Just a little time to myself to reflect and think is all I need. I usually get my fits when I'm not getting enough of that.
 

EditorOne

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Reinforcing what others have said: I used to indulge in rage before I knew what the heck an INTP was. Now I still get pissed off, but not enraged, and it usually doesn't show.

I think.

I close down rather than strike out. Probably that's all saved up and collecting interest ready for a huge jackpot payout of anger for some hapless fool who pulls the trigger someday, but maybe not.

When I was a volunteer firefighter I found that getting mad at the fire was pretty useful and also used up a lot of free-floating anger. I think any intense physical activity might serve the same purpose.
 

QuickTwist

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Reinforcing what others have said: I used to indulge in rage before I knew what the heck an INTP was. Now I still get pissed off, but not enraged, and it usually doesn't show.

I think.

I close down rather than strike out. Probably that's all saved up and collecting interest ready for a huge jackpot payout of anger for some hapless fool who pulls the trigger someday, but maybe not.

When I was a volunteer firefighter I found that getting mad at the fire was pretty useful and also used up a lot of free-floating anger. I think any intense physical activity might serve the same purpose.

I wish I was a fire fighter. It would be fun to use that hose to douse flame and save children from burning buildings. I might just meet my sole mate by saving here from certain death.
 

The Grey Man

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I wish I was a fire fighter. It would be fun to use that hose to douse flame and save children from burning buildings. I might just meet my sole mate by saving here from certain death.

Aye, firefighting is one of the myriad dissimilar things I'd like to do. I've always thought it had the potential to be altruistic and rewarding.
 

Architect

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Aye, firefighting is one of the myriad dissimilar things I'd like to do. I've always thought it had the potential to be altruistic and rewarding.

Ugh. I know a Fire fighter, no thanks (for me).

Back to OP, one of the signs that my kid was an INTP was this anger issue. He'd be completely sweet, wonderful little boy, then would turn into a murderous hellion like clockwork, about every two weeks. It was a big problem, he'd start beating on the kids around hm (2-5 age bracket) which as you can imagine caused 'some consternation' with other parents. It was pretty evil, they went from accusing us of having an abusive household ("why else would he act out so violently?") or him having some other problem. Trying to explain he was an INTP and would learn to control it didn't get too far.
 

QuickTwist

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*holds breath*
 

EditorOne

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Not to hijack the thread, but: Firefighting: A process of applying principles of decision-making to an uncontrolled situation producing a practical result. No altruism, it's just fun, especially for folks who can detach themselves emotionally on demand. When's the last time any of us INTPs felt useful and practical? :)
 

QuickTwist

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True enough, we need firefighters otherwise bad stuff would happen. Like fires. I am wondering about your experience as a fire fighter. Did you get a thrill from it (adrenaline rush) or was it the same hum drum detachment?
 

Brontosaurie

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yeh i flip out with people close to me. eventually keeping things sane, tolerant and relaxed doesn't work and i throw back a shitload of the manipulative crap others fling at me regularly, or silently expect me to comply with.

in my weaker moments i see dishonesty in this. but really i'm just being an idiot less often.
 
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I sometimes have quite the temper, yes. I'll either fully snap or go into some sort of static detachment. Drives SJs crazy when they're extremely angry and you stare back at them blankly. However, it drives me crazy when I lose my temper. It makes me feel infantile and moronic. So in the end, I'll be more angry at myself than whoever made me angry. :D

Definitely normal. It's just inferior Fe, as has been said. I see it in ISTPs I know as well.
 

EditorOne

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True enough, we need firefighters otherwise bad stuff would happen. Like fires. I am wondering about your experience as a fire fighter. Did you get a thrill from it (adrenaline rush) or was it the same hum drum detachment?

There was always adrenaline, and it helped with the physical demands. So it burned off, if you'll pardon the pun, any floating residual anger I might have stocked up from living life as an INTP.
The detachment was in relationship to the emotional and physical trauma of fire and crash victims.
Remember, volunteer firefighter: Same training as the paid departments, much lower number of fire calls, never so many that it got humdrum.
 

manishboy

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Rings true for me too. When I was a kid I had a threshold where I went from normal me to a raging bull. It was usually related to other peoples' emotions and my lack of boundaries against them. It felt like something ignited within and I would explode. There would be almost no buildup.

A few years ago, I was quite angry and somehow forgot the object of my anger. I was left with pure rage. It was an intense experience. Anger is oddly pleasurable if you're not distracted by who you're angry with.
 

SilentStorm

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I usually get angry at very stupid things. Like sometimes I will get outraged from something in a video game, or if my computer is going slow. But someone could steal from me and I really wouldn't care. I never get mad at the things that usually make people mad. And if I do get mad I never show it, not even the slightest. I think it's partly due to me not liking to show emotion and part shyness. But everyone that knows me thinks I'm the most peaceful person of all time. This also makes people more likely to walk all over me.

As for you having anger issues, I doubt it. I've seen people with anger issues, and they are constantly mad. They will scream at you for the stupidest things. Sometimes I think they look for things to be mad about. My sister has really bad anger issues, she wakes up mad and stays mad throughout the day. If you wake her up she will automatically be angry at you, sometimes screaming. Even little things like if she has to wash a dish to use it then she will be screaming about it. Most of the time when you are talking to her she talks mainly about how something or someone had made her mad.

If you actually did have anger issues you probably wouldn't be asking about it. Most people with anger issues don't think anything is wrong with them. They just think that everyone is out to get them, or they are purposely trying to make them angry. They really think that they just have the worst life ever and that's what's making them angry. And if you even suggest that they take anger management classes it will just make them more angry because they genuinely think that nothing is wrong with them.

I'm in no way an expert on the subject, this is just from my own eperience.
 

Jennywocky

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Yup, I usually tolerate things well for a while and then I explode. IDK if that's and INTP thing or not.

Yeah I think it is a TP thing in general especially ITP's. Ti dominant is usually composed then Fe inferior can come out.

I have experienced problems with this but have gotten better through the years.

The "stuffer's strategy" can apply to various types who have some reason to not act on anger directly -- for example, introverts tend to suppress (while extroverts express it far more directly), thinkers tend to suppress emotion or try to dismiss it as irrelevant leading to stuffing, perceivers try to flex to a situation and will thus suppress anger if it limits their options or positions them badly to their goals, etc.

The inferior Feeling of INTPs is naive and kind of simple, etc. It's pretty typical for INTPs to ignore/suppress emotion without even realize it is being suppressed, as part of flexing to a situation and focusing on other things, but resentment can build.

As far as young kids can go -- there's also the pressure to be a good mom/parent and loving your kids, but that doesn't dig into the daily grind of what that actually means... and the reality can be pretty frustrating at times when your life is constantly full of noise and chaos and then struggles for control and inability to get some time for emotional calm and introspection and whatever else. It just goes on and on and on, and the "flexing" strategy is not as effective in terms of carving out necessary personal space; one needs to be more directive there. Parenting is definitely a great way to stretch oneself as a person and develop some new approaches, since the old ones are not as effective.
 

JimJambones

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There's different sources for anger and I think it depends on temperament. Any type can have anger issues. Being a phlegmatic myself, I have a tendency to suppress anger, or ignore injustices until it has just gone too far, causing me to overcompensate for things I've failed to address due to a lack of assertiveness. This sometimes is expressed by anger.

When I was a child, I had a tendency to go along with what people told me to do until I developed a strong rational side and I would question why certain things had to be done at all. But, I didn't want to assert myself either, I would just try to avoid certain situations and try to get out of doing things that way.

When I was a teenager, there were certain things I was forced to do and that caused resentment that I tried to suppress.

Overall though, I do not have an angry disposition.
 

StevenM

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Vulnerability is a big one for me as well.

For example, upon just waking up. It takes me a good hour to overcome the sleep drunkenness, and I am in a very vulnerable state. Not a good idea to plan a surprise visit.

Anytime I feel less adequate and lacking a sense of control, it's easier for me to snap.
 

Architect

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The "stuffer's strategy" can apply to various types who have some reason to not act on anger directly -- for example, introverts tend to suppress (while extroverts express it far more directly), thinkers tend to suppress emotion or try to dismiss it as irrelevant leading to stuffing, perceivers try to flex to a situation and will thus suppress anger if it limits their options or positions them badly to their goals, etc.

Yes, and I think there's two parts to this, stuffing and abandonment. Stuffing is what occurs in people with the inferior, and abandonment is what occurs with the inferior functions (the "other four" not in your top stack)

tl;dr
The inferior is in active opposition to the most important aspect of yourself - the dominant. So I think there's an active degree of suppression with the inferior. To be an INTP means you must not be the opposite. But the opposite (the 'devil' of our psyche) must necessarily be close ("keep your friends close and your enemies closer") to foster psychic energy.

I've seen people stuff in other ways too. ESJ's will stuff viewpoints contrary to the little world they've created for themselves. You see this with religious fundamentalists, and even milder versions in family members and friends. A wall goes up when you bring up something contrary to their little view of the world. My father will laugh, restate whatever (asinine) idea he has about things, then change the subject. Avoidance maybe rather than stuffing, but in a similar vein.

The other functions involve more abandonment, such as Se for the INTP. I think John Beebe goes too far to label the shadow functions. I don't see Se as playing much of a role in my psyche, it's more of an abandoned skill. I don't care. I hate doing physical activities generally, I'd much prefer being stationary and thinking. I have learned the value of exercise though, and do enjoy how I feel from doing it, but the process itself isn't the benefit. In this I think people here make a big mistake when they say (in response to my point that a professional INTP athlete is not really possible) "of course an INTP could develop Se to the point of being a professional athlete!" Well yeah, but then they wouldn't be an INTP or at best a pathological one. Common when we're young where we don't want restrictions, but having a type means specifically that you are restricted. And while certainly an INTP through great force of will could learn to get good at some sport, he'd still be outclassed by the natural Se dominants.

As far as young kids can go -- there's also the pressure to be a good mom/parent and loving your kids, but that doesn't dig into the daily grind of what that actually means... and the reality can be pretty frustrating at times when your life is constantly full of noise and chaos and then struggles for control and inability to get some time for emotional calm and introspection and whatever else. It just goes on and on and on, and the "flexing" strategy is not as effective in terms of carving out necessary personal space; one needs to be more directive there. Parenting is definitely a great way to stretch oneself as a person and develop some new approaches, since the old ones are not as effective.

All true and very well said.
 

Sweetheart

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Very interesting. .

Thanks all :-)
 

The Grey Man

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Not to hijack the thread, but: Firefighting: A process of applying principles of decision-making to an uncontrolled situation producing a practical result. No altruism, it's just fun, especially for folks who can detach themselves emotionally on demand. When's the last time any of us INTPs felt useful and practical? :)

No altruism on the job, but what got you there in the first place? Idk, maybe I just don't want to let go of my idealization of the profession. Do you see it as a positive way to contribute to your community?
 

QuickTwist

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There was always adrenaline, and it helped with the physical demands. So it burned off, if you'll pardon the pun, any floating residual anger I might have stocked up from living life as an INTP.
The detachment was in relationship to the emotional and physical trauma of fire and crash victims.
Remember, volunteer firefighter: Same training as the paid departments, much lower number of fire calls, never so many that it got humdrum.

Interesting. I must be weird because I was in wrestling (which is very demanding physically, more that most people will know unless they participate in it) and one thing I noticed is that when there is high demand physically it is best to curb your adrenaline. Sure the moments leading up to a match were nerve racking to put it mildly, but once you start, it is better to focus on what you have to accomplish and cannot be bothered to be overly concerned in the "rush" because it will cause you to make a mistake. So I would argue that a rational mind when engaging in highly stressful actions physically is almost always the better choice. You can do this with practice. So I ask a question: Do we really need adrenaline?
 

nanook

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we enneagram nines are unaware of the aggression that comes through despite our attempts to play it down.

for instance many of our posts are critical of something, perhaps even unconstructive (or not - I try to be constructive at all times, but i have not always been that way) and they may leave the reader somewhat pissed off, yet we would be surprised and feel wronged if someone criticized us for it.

our criticism is often factually right, because we are generally well trained in being understanding of what other people do and why, but it's as if you criticize a party that you have not helped set up yourself, it's too late and simply hurtfull.

your mood disorder is probably mostly the result of your chronic inability to express what you want in life.

we ought to step in for our needs before there is conflict but we don't.

we nines actively evoke situations wherein we do not get what we want, because we support everyone getting what they want and forget our own needs. we hope to be accepted and supported in return, but it doesn't happen. it couldn't happen, because other people are not even informed about what we desire.

then we get angry at everything, the whole way of the world, not something specific. we never get angry about details (such as when you break my phone), but some patterns are generic in our eyes, they represent the way of the world and we can get absolute anger about them. jealousy can make us angry like that. when somebody gets what they want, who hasn't deserved it, just because they are asking for it. and we never get anything, because we never dare to ask. they have done nothing wrong, but to us they feel like everything that is wrong with the world. both they and the people who provide for their needs.

by the time we become conscious of anger, the party is set up, it's too late.

there is nothing we can do to be convert the feeling of being overlooked and mistreated into something healthy. bottling up the anger is wrong and dysfunctional but acting out and accusing people who are involved into the situation is also wrong and dysfunctional. they wouldn't know how to change anything for the better.

that's why the nine has to become more like a three, become a bold advocate of their interests in the first place. make other people agree with what you want by boasting a little bit, by impressing them with a vision, long before they have decided to want something else, before the party is planned out. i believe steve jobs is an example for doing this.

i'm not sure if i'm a full blown nine, but it's part of my tri-type or whatever.

anyhow, i have to add this to my previous post about the five.

the patterns can be confused on paper, in reality they are clearly distinct.

the five has a very outspoken mental idea of what they want. it may be ignorant of their feeling needs, but it's what they want and they make it happen. they want to remain independent and will usually succeed in setting up everything in their life in such a way, that they can get what they want, that they are in control.

but they can't plan other people into their independent goal orientation, because other people won't ever act from a purely mental game plan, and that is when they loose it, perhaps as parents or lovers, because they will suddenly fall out of their mental focus into somewhat childish feelings that appear to come out of nowhere and that seem paranoid (meaning projected anger, having accusative and commanding or demanding quality).

damn, the last part about the feelings sounds just like nine (even though my mental picture is clearly distinct). it's so hard to but the difference into words, i have to think about this more ...

it seems the five becomes emotionally aware, that living through a mental strategy isn't making them happy, but they do not realize this general problem on a mental level, instead they think they feel unhappy, because their plan is not working out in the present moment, due to the incompetence of someone who won't respect or obey what is clearly the right thing to do.

much like the nine becomes aware emotionally ware that not bothering to have a strategy at all can not make them happy but do not realize mentally, that this is a general long term issue, they think they are unhappy because the world is not inviting them at this very moment, that is has no place planned out for them in it's own strategy and that they don't have the courage to demand a place, which would of course not be granted just like that, as the know very well.

this longing for an invitation can also be confused with the four, on paper. the four hopes to be taken under the wing as well, only in a more loving manner, not in a practical context, but damn ... the enneagram is such a brain toaster....
 

QuickTwist

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we enneagram nines are unaware of the aggression that comes through despite our attempts to play it down.

for instance many of our posts are critical of something, perhaps even unconstructive (or not - I try to be constructive at all times, but i have not always been that way) and they may leave the reader somewhat pissed off, yet we would be surprised and feel wronged if someone criticized us for it.

our criticism is often factually right, because we are generally well trained in being understanding of what other people do and why, but it's as if you criticize a party that you have not helped set up yourself, it's too late and simply hurtfull.

your mood disorder is probably mostly the result of your chronic inability to express what you want in life.

we ought to step in for our needs before there is conflict but we don't.

so we actively evoke situations wherein we do not get what we want, because we support everyone getting what they want and forget our own needs. we hope to be accepted and supported in return, but it doesn't happen. it couldn't happen, because other people are not even informed about what we desire.

then we get angry at everything, the whole way of the world, not something specific. we never get angry about details, but some patterns are generic in our eyes, they represent the way of the world and we can get absolute anger about them. jealousy can make us angry like that. when somebody gets what they want, who hasn't deserved it. they have done nothing wrong, but to us they feel like everything that is wrong with the world.

by the time we become conscious of anger, the party is set up, it's too late.

there is nothing we can do to be convert the feeling of being overlooked into something healthy. bottling the anger up is wrong and dysfunctional but acting out and accusing people who are involved into the situation out is also wrong and dysfunctional. they wouldn't know how to change anything for the better.

that's why the nine has to become more like a three, become a bold advocate of their interests in the firstplace. make other people agree with what you want by boasting a little bit, by impressing them, long before they have decided to want something else, before the party is planned out. i believe steve jobs is an example for doing this.

i'm not sure if i'm a full blown nine, but it's part of my tritype or whatever.

anyhow, i have to add this to my previous post about the five.

the patterns can be confused on paper, in reality they are clearly distinct. the five has a very outspoken mental ideal of what they want. it may be ignorant of their feeling needs, but it's what they want and they make it happen. they want to remain independent and will usually succeed in setting up everything in their life in such a way, that they can get what they want, that they are in control. but they can't plan other people into their independent goal orientation, because other people won't ever act from a purely mental game plan, and that is when they loose it, because they will suddenly fall out of their mental focus into somewhat childish feelings that appear to come out of nowhere and that seem paranoid (meaning projected anger, having accusative and commanding or demanding quality).

damn, the last part about the feelings sounds just like nine (even though my mental picture is clearly distinct). it's so hard to but the difference into words, i have to think about this more ...

it seems the five becomes aware, that their mental strategy isn't making them happy, but they do not realize that this is the issue, they think they feel unhappy, because the strategy is not working out, due to the incompetence of someone. much like the nine becomes aware that not bothering to have a strategy at all does not make them happy and do not realize that this is the issue, they think they are unhappy because the world is not inviting them, has no place planned out for them in it's own strategy.

You should write a good beginners guide to Enneagram. I would totally read it. That says something about the way you communicate.
 

Yellow

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No. I didn't know this was normal. I mean I know the bottle-up/explode thing was common in ISTPs but I didn't know it was an INTP thing. In fact, I thought it was one of the big things that sets us apart from ISTPs. Maybe I need to go and read more.

I thought it was normal for us to be missing anger from our range of emotions. After all, you have to allow your initial emotions to slip by unchecked in order for anger to form. Either that, or you have to be so uncomfortable with your vulnerable emotions that you'd resort to anger in order to regain your sense [illusion] of control and power.

I haven't "exploded" since I was about 8 years old (and that was a bad day by any standards). As an adult I have always envied people's ability to feel and express anger. I especially want to experience indignant rage (rather than simple disgust), or anything that would compel me to shout at someone standing well within hearing range. It assume there is some kind of euphoria associated with it.

This doesn't make me a weirdo, does it? :phear:

Wait! I got it. Could testosterone be a factor in this? Most posters in this thread in men (and Jennywocky didn't admit to the explosive anger feelings). Testosterone reduces your tolerance for "weak" feelings. This would be a good time for a poll.

Edit: On second thought, "Sweetheart" is a pretty girly name. As is the horse thing. Unless you are a dude with a horse named Sweetheart. Which is also possible.
 

RaBind

sparta? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
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Yes I also had, and to a lesser extent have, issues with anger. Usually I would have anxiety attacks, and as you can imagine these incidents would be explosive bursts, rather then a slow build up or a prolonged milder anger. I've had anger and anxiety attack issues since I was young, however in my teenage years I did see an increase in their frequency and intensity. A defining point regarding this issue for me was when my dad suggested taking me to a psychiatrist. I remember being more aware and mindful of my anger and negative emotions after this. I think this was due to a fear of possibly being diagnosed with a condition that'd stick with me, well at least on my medical history or something like that, and could hinder me.

I have made effort and progress in managing these issues now, on my way out of my teenage years. These aspect are still not perfect yet. I'm still not very aware of, and in tune with, many of my emotions, especially the less noticeable and confrontational ones such as sadness, loneliness and milder anxiety/nervousness. However I think I'm making good progress, at least with regards to anger.

I did have an small anger incident occur over the Christmas holidays, less then two weeks ago, though. The source of my anger was towards a perceived, insignificant, betrayal from my dog. It, as in le doge, was pretty sad and I was petting it in hopes of giving comfort. It kept nibbling my hand, and I tried not to let this bother me. However later as I leaned towards it, to pet it again, it headbutted me while trying to nibble my hand. I hadn't expected the headbutt and got quite upset at the dog... a dog. So yea I think it can be quite ridicules, this characteristic, which I'm gonna insist is a general attribute of intps, in hopes of being held less responsible for the above incident. I think it's a symptom of the Fe inferior function, and it's one of the main indicators I use to assert that I am an intp.
 

EditorOne

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You and your dog simply wanted to play different games. :-)
 

dark+matters

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Yesssss... anal expulsive! One of my favorite terms. I've read about INTPs losing emotional control when feeling cornered. I totally get that way. I think that if it's true, it would be due to Fi being the INTP's shadow function. Emotional mastery, self-awareness and self-care is pretty important to combat day-to-day irritations that are bound to arise. I did a horrible job of that last semester and the results were disastrous. I had to be rescued by The Gopher and many others! Still haven't thanked him/them enough. I've heard tales of all the other IPs coming to a breaking point and losing it though. I'm positive that it could happen to anyone under the "right" circumstances.
 

QuickTwist

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Under the "right" circumstances. *Puffs lower lip* Mhm.. I can see that
 
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