INTJ's

[Zionoxis]

Alright, I work at an IT facility with another person. We both are skilled at what we do, but over time, we sort of developed a bit of rivalry psychologically. Through our many random debates, he is one of the VERY few people I know that can shoot my arguments completely full of holes. I have always seen myself as extremely intelligent, but other than my obvious pool of knowledge of many computing areas which supercedes his own, I feel that he is my logical superior. A humbling experience, I could say.

Anyhow, he is more organized and extroverted than I am (I do not want to go so far as to type him extroverted), and from observation, INTJ's do tend to be more extroverted than INTP's from what I can see. He is more comfortable talking with others over the phone support line. I need a bit more time to formulate my response via email, or I just sift through HTML code and fix a website that is down or such.

My actual question is: Are any of you familiar with the INTP/INTJ interaction scheme and how it operates? I feel shot down as if I were weaker, but I also look forward to it. I enjoy having someone that will, without question, rip my entire argument apart if there are errors. I believe he gains from my presence, as I can pull just about millions of random facts I have acquired about just about any topic. My most popular is computer/internet security.

 

[Words]

I use deduction, they use induction. Different standards of logic makes it difficult to communicate, but there are certain topics that allow ideas to connect. Also, my personal humor irritates most of them. They also don't talk much if they don't have a background or something, which is why it's difficult for me to bounce from one topic to another.

 

[Zionoxis]

I just went and looked up the two meanings of inductive vs deductive (yes, I did not know them). So this would be why my explanations can sometimes be completely wrong. If the process to arrive at the conclusion is wrong, so then, will be the conclusion itself. That being said, my errors are based on missing a concept in my reasoning, while he is more likely to be right due to observations not requiring a perfectly built list to arrive at an accurate conclusion (usually). That was just an eye opener for me.

 

[Sternschild]

Funny, I think if I had no interaction with INTP's, I would probably fancy myself one. There was this one very pronounced INTP I knew in my two year High School Honors Program. We respected one another to a great extent, but due to immaturity never really connected. I think if we were to meet today (I'm presently in college) we would be much better friends. A couple of my best friends are INTP's.

Overall, I agree with the deduction v. induction dichotomy in the types. While we are both intuitors and fancy general concepts, my J makes me desire things a little more pinned down.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Ugh, those guys. I will not go on my J-hating tangent but instead relate to the OP. I have an INTJ in physics with me who is almost exactly like this (except for the "more extraverted than me" part). I find myself to be a little more knowledgeable than he is but he usually comes up with more thought out ideas/plans/etc. He definitely makes me feel "shot down as if I were weaker" and I kind of expect he intentionally tries to do this (because he's an asshole who thinks he's better than just about everyone and therefore his (actually, quite often poor) ideas are better than everyone else's).

So yes, I would say I am familiar with the INTP/INTJ interaction seeing as I have to deal with one every day. But if you were wondering about it from a MBTI and functions standpoint then I have very little to contribute.

 

[Dapper Dan]

I always sort of imagined this working in the other direction, with the INTP poking little holes in the INTJ's conclusions. Then again, I'm not sure I know any INTJs.

Care to share any details of the debates?

 

[Words]

I always sort of imagined this working in the other direction, with the INTP poking little holes in the INTJ's conclusions. Then again, I'm not sure I know any INTJs.

You are correct. and I find this to be the ideal INTJ-INTP interaction. That is the INTJ provides answers to INTP's questions and the INTP questions the INTJ's answers and then the INTJ answers again etc. INTP criticizes and INTJ provides perspectives.

 

[Systems]

You are correct. and I find this to be the ideal INTJ-INTP interaction. That is the INTJ provides answers to INTP's questions and the INTP questions the INTJ's answers and then the INTJ answers again etc. INTP criticizes and INTJ provides perspectives.

This is my own experience with my very good INTP friend. It can be an absolutely wonderful combo, and my INTP friend has been the best workmate I have had so far.

 

[Zionoxis]

I always sort of imagined this working in the other direction, with the INTP poking little holes in the INTJ's conclusions. Then again, I'm not sure I know any INTJs.

Care to share any details of the debates?

I am sure that is the way it is meant to be, but I have grown accustomed to be forced to answer my own questions, thus, though I am extremely skilled at poking holes in arguments, my own assertions do not come across as stable...poking holes takes longer than the 5 seconds it takes me to formulate a reply or an assertion that occurred to me randomly.

In most cases, the debates are just semantics to the point of I will say "That is what I meant", but he just says "Well, it is not what you said."

Damn the English language.

Also, there are not too many of my questions he can answer, as many of them are based on my many fields of knowledge which he never took the time to learn. The other day, I was curious to if you could put NAT inside of NAT. He had no clue (as usual).

 

[Dr. Freeman]

I always sort of imagined this working in the other direction, with the INTP poking little holes in the INTJ's conclusions. Then again, I'm not sure I know any INTJs.

I have known one INTJ, (known to be an INTJ, there is a chance that I have run into others without knowing) and we got along very well. When we did debate, I was the one who won most of the time.

 

[Moocow]

I have three INTJs in my family and a somewhat close INTJ friend. I get along with them all pretty well, although we've had to learn how to understand each other over time because communication can be pretty rough. There's a lot of room for misunderstanding, misapplied self-projection and distrust on both parts. You can build respect from an INTJ by showing that you're willing to carefully rethink your position if it can't be defended, or otherwise that you're willing to (validly) argue your own to the end without losing your shit.

INTJs seem to be more sane and down to earth than myself, and our fields of knowledge are usually separate in both their content and the way in which we know them. I've found that over time we learn things from each other that I probably wouldn't get from any other type, but only after intense cross-interpretation.

The difference with INTP knowledge is that it's all centered around revealing some constant principle that can be applied universally so that a perfect end goal can be initially determined (never really happens), while INTJ knowledge uses principles in a smaller, more situational way to work out the means of reaching end goals that are already obvious to them.

 

[alienarcade]

In socionics they call it Quasi-Identical relationships (http://www.socionics.com/rel/qid.htm). I could see INTJ-INTP interactions as one of the most intense intellectual relationships out of the lot, but the fight would be like Timmy Turner's father and Dinkleburg (from fairly odd parents), never being able to cease.

 

[Words]

This is my own experience with my very good INTP friend. It can be an absolutely wonderful combo, and my INTP friend has been the best workmate I have had so far.

I believe part of the idea behind it is that the Ne in INTP perceives or 'senses' the expansiveness of reality whereas the Ni in the INTJ perceives the patterns or the limitations of reality. The INTJ presents a [technical]plan(or policy or perspective etc.) and the INTP "applies" the INTJ's vision by abstractly relating it with the INTP's awareness of the potentiality or wideness of reality.

"Here's how it goes...", "But what if....?"

The difference with INTP knowledge is that it's all centered around revealing some constant principle that can be applied universally so that a perfect end goal can be initially determined (never really happens),

Constant principle brought about by Ti-Si(mainly Si), which is one of the reasons why often the worldview of INTP's are technical but also very rigid.

while INTJ knowledge uses principles in a smaller, more situational way to work out the means of reaching end goals that are already obvious to them.

Context-shifting and context-sensing in Ni.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

In socionics they call it Quasi-Identical relationships (http://www.socionics.com/rel/qid.htm). I could see INTJ-INTP interactions as one of the most intense intellectual relationships out of the lot, but the fight would be like Timmy Turner's father and Dinkleburg (from fairly odd parents), never being able to cease.

Yes. This.

"A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both."

Oh my god yes. This almost exactly explains my relationship with the INTJ I know.

 

[Systems]

I believe part of the idea behind it is that the Ne in INTP perceives or 'senses' the expansiveness of reality whereas the Ni in the INTJ perceives the patterns or the limitations of reality. The INTJ presents a [technical]plan(or policy or perspective etc.) and the INTP "applies" the INTJ's vision by abstractly relating it with the INTP's awareness of the potentiality or wideness of reality.

I'm not sure I recognize this image. My friend is a lot stronger on Ti though, than Ne, and that might be the reason. She usually attacks my visions or arguments from semantics/logic point of view, forcing me to refine my ideas and especially the formulation of it. This holds very much, as the "language" in which Ni perceives ideas and visions, are in no way truly expressible through normal language. It is abstractions of abstractions and as such needs to be interpreted by me in order to explain what I see.
Other times she will use a Ti Ne combo, picking up on the main thrust of my thoughts but finding minor errors in the presentation, and then make her own counter proposal. I then "check" it with my Ni (eyes going up towards an unoccupied part of the room, running it through the model), and express my problem with her thoughts, trying to make it closer to the pattern I've spotted.

This process can continue a long time, and each time we use both our methods to refine and reevaluate our understandings. One of the very important aspects of this method is making sure, that you both use the same definitions, otherwise the discussion can quickly become futile.

Should I compare our two modes of thoughts I would call Ti-Ne for syntax thought. Ne percieves the "grammatical" pattern of the problem and Ti uses it's logical understandings to fill out the blanks.
Ni is a lot less systematic and is more a view or perspective of things, than a reasoning tool in itself. I can be asked a question I haven't ever really thought about and instantly, just by looking at my internal model of the world, be able to gain a lot of insights into the problem and really "view" it through. Te helps applying principles of natural science and facts to the model, calibrating it towards greater accuracy.

Again, I would like to say, that INTP's and INTJ's can really benefit from each other, by using their different strengths together.

 

[pacman24740]

Are any of you familiar with the INTP/INTJ interaction scheme and how it operates? I am an INTJ, and my best friend happens to be an INTP, so I can at least offer how we operate, since he is the only INTP friend that I have. (I do have an ENTP friend, but after seeing him in person they are totally different people, it's very dramatic.) Anyways, we have the same problem.. he tends to pump out these ideas and observations and I attack them, he battles, and mostly loses. We have no hard feelings, as he does the same to me, just not as often. It seems as though he has more random skills than I do. When we first met, I would get caught up in his crazy ideas and invest time and money into them, and get annoyed when they would never came to fruition. Now, I've learned to take them with a grain of salt, and invest very little resources into group projects, because he will most likely lose interest after a while. I find myself coming up with solutions to problems he his having with life, that can be logically solves, with very little ease. He says that I am sometimes arguemenative, and tend to steam-pile his ideas, and a little intimidating, so I tone it down a little, even with another NT type..

 

[Zionoxis]

A good example at work is that I have realized that my INTJ friend always gives me a hard time for having pretty bad organization. He also says I talk too much (I talk a lot with those I feel comfortable with). We have come to the mutual conclusion that I am good at randomly making systems (I made a setup that can format 20 computers at once), and he is good at organization, and keeping things on track. So I rely on his organization, while he relies on my uncanny ability to make things better, work faster, and setups that make life easier as a whole.

As for the steam-pile, I understand it. INTP's take criticism pretty well compared to other types, just don't do it constantly or they will get irritated....and arguing semantics is..just annoying. When he does bring a logical argument, I have gotten good enough now to stand my own ground. This is the first INTJ I have come in contact with so it is an interesting experience. Sadly, he is so much better with women than I am...damn their increased social ability.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

I've got an INTP friend and lots of times when we debate, I get the impression he's a bit intimidated by me. It's a bit like this:
1. He presents the result of his Ti thinking process in a nutshell and sounds quite
confident about it. He makes it sound like it's a well-known fact set in stone. He
doesn't give any reasons as to why he thinks that.
2. I fire back a reply sounding even more confident than him. For me this is just
discussing things and I don't mean to criticize him. In fact, what I'm interested in
is the reasoning that lead him to this particular conclusion. For some reason I'm
'constitutionally unable' to just ask him to explain his thoughts.
3. He thinks I'm trying to shoot down his ideas or just being stubborn and repeats
word by word what he said before as if I was deaf.
4. I think he's being stubborn or daft and I say the same again as if he was deaf.
etc.


The funny thing is, when I'm wrong and he does manage to explain to me why I'm wrong I accept it immediately and most of the time he's right anyway.

Does this sound familiar? I think it's got to do with indcution vs deduction as Word said. INTJs might present their observations first and talk at lenght about them before they draw a conclusion. Whereas INTPs will just state their conclusions first and will only explain how they arrived at them when asked directly. So even when the INTP/INTJ has made no logical error and their conclusions/ observations are correct, the order of presentation confuses the other one.

 

[Zionoxis]

I've got an INTP friend and lots of times when we debate, I get the impression he's a bit intimidated by me. It's a bit like this:
1. He presents the result of his Ti thinking process in a nutshell and sounds quite
confident about it. He makes it sound like it's a well-known fact set in stone. He
doesn't give any reasons as to why he thinks that.
2. I fire back a reply sounding even more confident than him. For me this is just
discussing things and I don't mean to criticize him. In fact, what I'm interested in
is the reasoning that lead him to this particular conclusion. For some reason I'm
'constitutionally unable' to just ask him to explain his thoughts.
3. He thinks I'm trying to shoot down his ideas or just being stubborn and repeats
word by word what he said before as if I was deaf.
4. I think he's being stubborn or daft and I say the same again as if he was deaf.
etc.


The funny thing is, when I'm wrong and he does manage to explain to me why I'm wrong I accept it immediately and most of the time he's right anyway.

Does this sound familiar? I think it's got to do with indcution vs deduction as Word said. INTJs might present their observations first and talk at lenght about them before they draw a conclusion. Whereas INTPs will just state their conclusions first and will only explain how they arrived at them when asked directly. So even when the INTP/INTJ has made no logical error and their conclusions/ observations are correct, the order of presentation confuses the other one.

You have no imaginable idea how much this helped me. I look at my past debates where people get angry at me...and I realize that I fail to explain HOW I came to that conclusion. Oh, and that does seem very much like my INTJ friend and I.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

You have no imaginable idea how much this helped me. I look at my past debates where people get angry at me...and I realize that I fail to explain HOW I came to that conclusion. Oh, and that does seem very much like my INTJ friend and I.

LOL. Glad it helped. I think part of the problem is that both INTPs and INTJs are logical and impersonal and they will not ask people their personal opinion as such. I.e. they will not ask someone what they think just because they are their friend. They both value 'objective' opinions, so whether they accept an opinion or not doesn't have to do with whether they like the person. They would accept a logical opinion even from a person they otherwise don't like. So by extension they forget to ask people what they think and just assume it will transpire naturally as the discussion goes along and this doesn't work very well when one uses deduction and the other induction.

 

[Pride]

You guys are making INTJs sound like INTPs and INTPs sound like INTJs.

Typically, INTJs are the ones jumping to conclusions or stating their internal revelations as fact due to nature of Te - the function that draws on external, real-world facts & data in order to validate their Ni.

INTPs on other hand will typically not be as definitive or certain in their statements due to the nature of Ti - the introverted function that seeks to develop a perfect, logical internal architecture that is realistically impossible to do. With the addition of Ne, Ti is constantly having new information fed to it, which causes Ti to continuously weave new threads of varying importance.

Ti-Ne - "what if... therefore I conclude..."

Ni-Te - "I know... because of..."

 

[Zionoxis]

You guys are making INTJs sound like INTPs and INTPs sound like INTJs.

Typically, INTJs are the ones jumping to conclusions or stating their internal revelations as fact due to nature of Te - the function that draws on external, real-world facts & data in order to validate their Ni.

INTPs on other hand will typically not be as definitive or certain in their statements due to the nature of Ti - the introverted function that seeks to develop a perfect, logical internal architecture that is realistically impossible to do. With the addition of Ne, Ti is constantly having new information fed to it, which causes Ti to continuously weave new threads of varying importance.

Ti-Ne - "what if... therefore I conclude..."

Ni-Te - "I know... because of..."

What part are you seeing this? Even though the INTP mind is always editing and making things better inside his own head, there are times when he must present his thoughts as they are. When this happens, it may not be perfect, but he must present and argue his case with what he has. What we are saying is that for us INTP's, this defense is uncomfortable against an INTJ because we feel like an artist showing off an incomplete work (well, that second part is mainly speculation) in the form of debate. When you get a servicedesk ticket asking what you should do, you cannot constantly formulate, you must test and find an answer, regardless of your feelings of the matter (I hate ServiceDesk with a fiery passion btw).

 

[Pride]

When concerned with objective facts and data, it is usually just about an accumulation of information.

My post was more in reference when dealing with theory and conjecture and how either type operates and arrives at their respective conclusions.

So yes, an INTJ might be more "comfortable" in a debate but that is because Ni is perfectly fine with an imperfect internal system as long as it has valid amounts of Te to back it up - however - Te can be biased and misinformed which means that the INTJ more prone to lapses in logic and reason. If Te is true, then of course, he would be correct in whatever assertions he was initially making.

Ti does not like imperfection and logical inconsistency one bit. It is a process of building, breaking, and rebuilding an internal system endlessly and seamlessly.

INTJs might present their observations first and talk at lenght about them before they draw a conclusion. Whereas INTPs will just state their conclusions first and will only explain how they arrived at them when asked directly.

It is usually the other way around - INTJs will jump to conclusions before INTPs; INTPs will meander with possibilities and avoid definitive conclusions.

 

[AureliaSeverina]

You guys are making INTJs sound like INTPs and INTPs sound like INTJs.

Nope, my INTP friend thinks about everything beforehand and comes up with a concise way of phrasing it in his head.Whatever he says in a discusion sounds as if he had prepared it. He doesn't jump to conclusions. He sorts his thoughts out when he's alone and then presents the conclusions to people.
Me (INTJ), I don't normally sit and think and find the perfect way to verbalise my words. E.g. I might read a newspaper and take in the information and abstract from it and only verbalize my thoughts and my conclusion when I'm telling someone about it.

 

[Cogitabundus]

Nope, my INTP friend thinks about everything beforehand and comes up with a concise way of phrasing it in his head.Whatever he says in a discusion sounds as if he had prepared it. He doesn't jump to conclusions. He sorts his thoughts out when he's alone and then presents the conclusions to people.
Me (INTJ), I don't normally sit and think and find the perfect way to verbalise my words. E.g. I might read a newspaper and take in the information and abstract from it and only verbalize my thoughts and my conclusion when I'm telling someone about it.

Also INTJ and I also do this. It drives people nuts because really the only social interaction I want most of the time is to tell people about something I've just read/seen/did etc to get some kind of feedback or opinion and then going further from there. I don't like learning or even obtaining some sort of information without putting it use.

 

[JennaSayQuoi]

I am married to an INTJ and I totally relate to this situation.

I have to say, I really respect your attitude and honesty about the situation. I think many INTPs are too insecure and defensive about being put-down to admit it.

Sometimes, especially when we were first together, I felt inferior, because of trying to win him at his own game. What I found out later, completely innocently, is that what destroys them the most is an honest desire to understand, that shows itself thru relentless questions to clarify minor details. XP No one can handle the minor details like we can.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that as an actual strategy. He might kill you in a fit of rage. lol