• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

INTJ or INFJ?

Philosophyking87

It Thinks For Itself
Local time
Today 12:05 AM
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
827
---
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
I know this is an INTP forum. I'm an INTP, but I was wondering if someone with a higher knowledge of MBTI could help me with someone else's type, because it's been causing both of us a bit of grief.

My friend tested INFJ her first time, two years ago. And most of the time, she usually gets INFJ (although she's also tested INTJ on and off).

However, every time she reads an INFJ description, she never fully relates to every aspect of the description. More specifically, she doesn't relate to the Fe aspect of the INFJ description, because she doesn't really feel as though she "must" take care of others, or that she really cares to concern herself with others all that much. Mostly, she's more self-involved, although she is by no means cold, but more warm (she just comes off a bit more reserved and aloof at times, like she's hiding away, but not because she's mean).

So, she started questioning her true type, as anyone would, for perhaps she was mistyped, as tends to happen often. Thus, she started wondering if she was INFJ or INTJ (considering she tends to get INTJ a bit of the time). So she began taking more tests to ascertain her true type. Finally, to try to settle the matter, she took the MMDI, which shows the ordering of your cognitive functions and shows what types you are most likely to relate with.

The results were the following:

Ni > Fi > Te > Ti > Ne > Si > Fe > Se

On the test, she received INFJ (or perhaps INTJ). The difference between the two was 1%. However, if you really look at the ordering of these functions, those which are usually native to the INFJ (Fe, Ti, and Se) tend to be lower than those which are native to the INTJ (Fi and Te). And oddly, her Ne is somewhat developed.

Thus, it comes down to it. Based on the ordering of these functions, what conclusions can most reasonably be drawn? Is she—functionally—more INFJ or INTJ? Based on our research, we've come to think that she is an INTJ with a highly developed Fi, because her highest functions are Ni, Fi, and Te, with the INFJ functions being lower (Ti and Fe, although they are there).
 

Ska

Active Member
Local time
Today 1:05 AM
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
210
---
I would be very wary to put too much merit into that test. "Based on the ordering of these functions, what conclusions can most reasonably be drawn?" Why would that be a good place to start? It's only one of dozens of tests that have gotten her nowhere thus far.

I don't think there's enough "evidence" here at all to come to any reasonable conclusion. I'd recommend having her make a video and see what Adymus thinks.
 

Adymus

Banned
Local time
Yesterday 10:05 PM
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
2,180
---
Location
Anaheim, CA
The cognitive functions test means nothing, it is not better than any other MBTI test (It is actually worse, because it is misleading in how cognitive functions actually work.)

I agree that a video would be much better idea.

But until then, perhaps you can relay this to her to see if she resonates with it:

By itself Fe has the ability to move and read into social/tribal dynamics, and it concerns itself with increasing levels of interpersonal harmony. However, INFJs do not have this concern for group harmony as high as the Fe doms do. The reason many an INFJ do not feel the need to create harmony in the world around them is because of the priority Fe takes in their psyche, it is below their Ni.
This tribe that we see around us right now is not the INFJ's tribe, these are not their people. Their tribe is in their Ni, their tribe does not exist yet, it is essentially waiting to be created.
Inside an INFJ's Ni is how the world of humans should be, and the Fact that their vision is so far from how the world of humans actually is in the present reality just makes it all the more infuriating. This is actually the cause of the adversarial nature of the Ni dominants, all Ni dominants have a bit of an adversarial attitude toward the current culture or society, it is just the nature of a mind that is constantly being reminded of how great the world could be if humans were not so damn stupid.
 

Philosophyking87

It Thinks For Itself
Local time
Today 12:05 AM
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
827
---
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
Here's what I wrote in another thread. Hopefully it helps.

Looks like INTJ to me too. A lot of female Thinkers test as Feelers, being influenced by social pressure for women to be feel-y.

However, keep in mind that tests aren't reliable *at all*, I always get higher Fi than Fe, which is not true for INFJs.

Does she relate to the INTJ profiles?
Well, let's put it like this: INFJ and INTJ basically share many aspects of their personality in common already. Both are Introverted, Intuitive, and Judging. Both are directed by Introverted Intuition. Thus, as children, before a preference for Thinking or Feeling may have developed, these two types are essentially almost identical. Hence, "THE INJ CHILD." As a result, she definitely relate to the description of INJ children. Thus, this would explain why she "mostly" relates to the INFJ profile. However, she never really related with the entire Fe aspect of INFJ profiles.

Specific statements such as the following don't resonate with her well:

*derive satisfaction from helping others
*these traits tend to act as a "tell me what's wrong" sign on their forehead
*desire to contribute to the welfare of others and genuinely enjoy helping their companions
*creative nurturers
*INFJs want a deep connections with other people
*INFJs gain the most satisfaction from their work when they can turn their vision into reality, creating constructive change for other people

As you can see, it's the Fe aspect of INFJs which she doesn't really feel she can relate with. Although, if she were to help solve a problem or enter the world of science, or construct some kind of system, she says that she partly intends to help others, although very indirectly. The fact that a new system might help people is only a secondary drive for her, rather than a primary one. Instead, she's driven to put her mind to systems and problems to find solutions almost instinctively, regardless of whether or not it will help people. But if it does help people, it's a plus.

Additionally, I tend to generate tons of theories and ideas for improvement, as INTPs tend to do. So I'm usually attempting to explain my ideas to her (which is difficult, because she doesn't have a lot of Ne and her Te instinct to critique ideas according to external applicability tends to make it hard to explain how an idea will work, which I intuitively understand will work, although I can't usually ever find the words or thoughts to explain my ideas in physically applicable terms). However, when I do explain my ideas to her in some sufficient manner, she wants to understand it more thoroughly. She once tried to work out one of my thoughts, by creating a loose system for it, working out the details and trying to apply it realistically somehow, which is what INTJ are said to do. Also, I once attempted to explain a theory of perception which she immediately drew a diagram for, to help understand it in more detail. I would think that is an INTJ trait, as well.

She tends to be warm and friendly, albeit a bit aloof and reserved at times, needing alone time and space (just as myself). And she seems to have a very complicated inner world, where abstractions and deep Ni workings are going on. She has a fairly sharp mind, which she has no problem applying to things like brain teasers and whatnot, for fun. While watching a movie, she tends to enjoy attempting to figure out where the movie will go, and often times she can actually predict a plot far in advance. Movies like The Unusual Suspects, or any other typical type of Mystery/Thriller tends to rile her up and get her really excited, as she wants to figure a plot out, in all its intricacies and complexity. Traditionally, this is a trait of INTJs. Although, she also enjoys more abstract and poetic movies with a lot of symbolism and metaphors, such as Aronofsky's The Fountain (which we both enjoyed thoroughly). It was highly surreal and artistic—stimulating the "right brain," as it were. Additionally, she does enjoy romantic movies, as well. Movies like Immortal Beloved (which is about Beethoven's life and is very emotional).

Thus, she's more "cerebral" and "system-oriented" than you'd expect from an INFJ. And to get back to what I was saying earlier about INTJ and INFJs sharing traits, she relates to most aspect of both type descriptions (just not the Fe aspect of INFJs). And when it comes to INTJ, she relates to "most" of the type description, except certain aspects.

Specific statements like the following might not sit well with her:

*They may not want to bother with people who they do not perceive to be their intellectual equals. (while she does prefer to be around intelligent people, she doesn't really entirely discriminate against people based on intelligence, as many INTJs probably would)

*Often intellectual, they enjoy analysis and complex problem-solving, and are much less comfortable with the illogical and unpredictable nature of other people and their emotions. (She isn't at all "overly intellectual," although she does enjoy solving problems and analyzing things, and she isn't entirely uncomfortable with the emotional nature of people, or emotions in general)


In essence, her thinking nature isn't entirely developed or potent, albeit she 'can' think analytically.

Here are few traits which do fit with her, though:

*INTJs are analytical problem-solvers, eager to improve systems and processes with their innovative ideas. (She enjoys systems and attempting to devise innovative ideas, for sure)

*INTJs have a talent for seeing possibilities for improvement, whether at work, at home, or in themselves. (She is constantly attempting to improve things, and she can't help but criticize and deconstruct ideas and arguments. For instance, she'll point out flaws in movies and say, "The director/screenwriter could've done a better job by doing A, B, C, ect." And when we took psychology in college, she was capable of instantly judging if a theory was scientifically valid, saying things like, "Without reliability, how can this theory be trusted?" or "This is a weak theory, because A, B, C" Additionally, she enjoys self-improvement almost habitually. She's constantly attempting to work on making herself better somehow)

*They have a hunger for knowledge and strive to constantly increase their competence (She's been learning voraciously lately, and it seems to be in her natural inclination to constantly research, constantly seek new information, facts, and interesting ideas, especially in areas she enjoys, such as theoretical physics or philosophy.)

*Popular hobbies for the INTJ include reading, cultural events, taking classes, appreciating art, computers and video games, and independent sports such as swimming, backpacking, or running marathons. (She is always reading. It's one of the main things she enjoys doing, along with writing. Yet, her writing tends to focus on relationships (embedded with philosophy). Screen writer is one of her passions, and she wants to learn movie directing one day. She loves taking courses and learning, and she thoroughly enjoys video games. Do INFJs enjoy video games often?)

She also completely loves watching Carl Sagan's videos of the Cosmos (who is usually typed as INTJ). She also considered Eisenhower to be one of her favorite presidents (who is usually considered INTJ). And she has a male friend we both knew in high school who is INTJ. They still talk over the internet, and she considers him one of the few persons she's ever been able to relate with well. Supposedly, they understand each other and usually think alike.

She also relates to the independent nature of the INTJ. As a child and adolescent, she said she always had a hunger for independence (which she was never given). She desired to go places and do interesting things, but her family always chained her to the house. Additionally, she grew up in a household of S types, so her Intuition was never allowed to thrive. She had to keep it all to herself most of the time, and she couldn't intellectually engage with her simple family, as they simply weren't the thinking type. So she often had to avoid intelligent communication with them. Also, she was probably, as most females are, expected to develop emotion over thinking. Her grandma actually told her once (which not uncommon at all) "You don't want to be smart, guys don't like that."

Also, as is said of INTJs, she has a pretty quick and sharp mind.

So, as you can see, she doesn't relate well at all with the Fe aspect of the INFJ, but tends to relate more with the INTJ descriptions, although she isn't like me. I'm INTP, and I'm like the typical stereotypical description of an INT. We're often arrogant and cocky, extremely logical and unemotional, mean and insensitive, rough and tough, like walking robots. And our intellectual nature tends to be extremely developed, so that we come off very smart and intelligent. Yet, she's not like that. She's warm and emotional; she hates conflict; she dislikes judgmental or arrogant people; she's logical, but not overly logical; she can be both sensitive or insensitive, depending on what mood she may be in; and she's both tough and gentle, depending on the situation or time.

So, would she be more INTJ or INFJ? I'm thinking, based on what I've said, and what I know of her, that she's more of an INTJ. However, how common is it for an INTJ to have such a developed Fi??? Could an INTP, for example, have an extremely developed Si?
user_offline.gif
 

Razare

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 1:05 AM
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
633
---
Location
Michigan - By Lake Michigan
A person like that has no business figuring out their type one way or another. She should adopt the label INXJ and use that. She's probably an INFJ, since INTJ's tend to be highly certain they're INTJ.

She's obviously on the fence about things and that's good, it's just who she is. Trying to type her just may make her feel she needs to be this way or that, which isn't actually that helpful. It's just something to consider.

Maybe knowing her type wont affect her at all, though. I don't know her well enough.

With that test, it's likely she may have mistaken Fi for Fe. Just from my perspective as an NT type INFJ, I'll say this about your list of Fe attributes.


*derive satisfaction from helping others -- Usually no, I get somewhat impatient helping most people, unless I really care for them

*these traits tend to act as a "tell me what's wrong" sign on their forehead -- Not sure what that means, but I keep to myself most of the time. I don't want to hear people's problems, that is unless I value that person. I suppose I differentiate who is part of my tribe and who is not. If you are, for whatever reason, then I will want to hear your problems. If you are not, you're just expelling hot air and I'm pretending to listen.

*desire to contribute to the welfare of others and genuinely enjoy helping their companions -- Welfare of others, not so much. Welfare of those close to me, very much so.

*creative nurturers -- Ehh... when I have kids, I probably will become one. Until then, no.

*INFJs want a deep connections with other people -- I generally just want one deep connection and that's with whoever my mate turns out to be. Other people, how closely I connect depends on who they are.

*INFJs gain the most satisfaction from their work when they can turn their vision into reality, creating constructive change for other people -- INFJ's can rarely turn their vision into reality, and that's probably a good thing. Most of us become cynical and realize that none of our visions will be realized and adopt a new vision around that. This happens in our late teens, maybe early twenties when we confront failure at actualizing our vision.


I can see how she might be an INTJ still. Female INTJ's can sometimes smooth over their T-ness, since society sometimes requires it of them. They'll never do a perfect job, but they will have attempted it much more so than male INTJ's because of gender roles.
 

KazeCraven

crazy raven
Local time
Today 12:05 AM
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
397
---
Yeah, I'm starting to think that type descriptions are even bad for describing the top two functions. I'm seeing a lot of quotes from the type descriptions (these traits tend to act as a "tell me what's wrong" sign on their forehead), so I think we need to move away from those somehow. The one about INTPs at intp.org is good (I think) but that's just 1 of 16.

I'd feel weird going around preaching Adymus's cog100 stuff, but that seems to be much more reputable than the type descriptions.
 

BigApplePi

Banned
Local time
Today 1:05 AM
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,984
---
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
You seem to have answered your own question. Sure. Why couldn't an INTP have a very developed Si? One can develop anything they are capable of developing.
 

Philosophyking87

It Thinks For Itself
Local time
Today 12:05 AM
Joined
Apr 12, 2010
Messages
827
---
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
You seem to have answered your own question. Sure. Why couldn't an INTP have a very developed Si? One can develop anything they are capable of developing.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
 

Ska

Active Member
Local time
Today 1:05 AM
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
210
---
After reading that post I'm leaning towards INTJ. Maybe you could ask her some Fi and Ti questions and see if she has conscious use of those?

This might be a good place to start for Fi:

But it is basically a tone that is saying "please recognize how important this is to me." For those of you who have INTJ friends, have you ever seen them get intense, like when something important to them is challenged? You know how their voice gets really low and they start speaking in one steady tone? That's Fi.

This is from the guide to typing in real time thread. Do you recognize that in her? I knew what Adymus was talking about immediately because of my INTJ friend.
 

Words

Only 1 1-F.
Local time
Today 8:05 AM
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
3,222
---
Location
Order
Indeed, I think Judging functions are the most surfaced functions and thus, the most easily identified. The detail is there.

Because Fe is extraverted and Fi is introverted, Fe will be more expressed. Try noticing the facial value-based contrast between an ExTP and an IxTJ, tertiary F's.
 
Top Bottom