INTJ + INTP work relationship

[Stark_nor]

Hello,

INTJ male dating INTP female for 5+ years now. We're both 27.

Basically: I'm allways driven, within reason, to take action and complete tasks that needs to be done in the company.

The company: A startup. 2 years old. Cash positive. Ebike shop. Battery technology development (software development). Retail presense (Brick and mortar store + webshop). Importer (factory direct).

As a couple, we're very close. We're practically married, while not married. We bicker and chafe - but make time to eachother and really have developed the relationship to something I will not walk away from.

She (INTP) has been working in another job for 4 years now and is ready to leave. She wants to join my company, for more challenging work. I'm (INTJ) exited to have her "join the company" fulltime, but combining work and home like this. I'm sure to f*** this up in some way.

Previously she has gotten tasks and committments from me, but fail to complete the tasks. Either the reason is laziness or paralysis by analysis or perfectionism. A deadline seems to be, to her, worth nothing. This drives me to do her work for her (post-deadline), which I do not want to do - but just have to do.

During these startup years - she's come with enligthened input and set me straigth more than a few times.

I want her to work in the company. But I'm afraid to push, and I'm afraid to give her the wrong work.

The amount of work is not the problem. There is lots to do. The question is, what should she be responsible for, and what standard should I hold her to? She's very intelligent and currently has the higest average-sale in her current job by a margin of ~20%. She details how she analyzes customers, and how to make them spend more money.

She does not like people and do not want to "work the floor" in our brick & mortar shop, but should I force her to try?

The website is where I really think she could find meaningful and fullfilling work. It is one of the areas where we want to grow in the near future. But how do I get her started? She has been in the "starting pit" with wordpress and woocommerce for well over a year now. Drives me nuts.

Any input is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[~~~]

Why not do a commission deal based on web sales?

 

[Stark_nor]

Why not do a commission deal based on web sales?

Because she would like a fixed income, and developing the web sales will take time. Am I missing something?

 

[Yellow]

Oh, schnelly.

I'm INTP with an INTJ. I've been helping INTJ with his (home-based) company since we met, but I spent about 9 months working for him "full-time".

The business is his life. For me, it was just a set of tasks that I performed 40-50 hours a week in order to bring in money. He didn't vocalize this until much later, but he envisioned my "commitment" to work for him as this ultimate union of love, work, and love-of-work. Every time I resisted his vision (by treating it like a job), it hurt him. In response, he grew cold and controlling. Needless to say, I had to find work elsewhere, and we had to redraw our boundaries.

I realize your brick-and-mortar is a different situation, but you might consider the following, 1) unwelcome transference of your work life power-dynamic to home life (or vice versa); 2) differing levels of passion/commitment to the work; 3) sheer amount of time spent together; 4) her need to maintain her own identity and interests outside your shared work life; and 5) whether she'll actually benefit your company.

 

[PmjPmj]

INTJ: Can we just fucking execute, already?

INTP: Let me just analyse, reanalyse and then sit pondering for a short while.

INTJ: *all of the rage*

^ My work relationship with an INTP, which lasted ~ 7 years.

There is no question in my mind that he thought things through more thoroughly and, eventually, could come up with an ingenious / efficient way of achieving a goal... but by the time he'd stopped fucking about with his ideas, I'd already gone ahead and finished the job in a way not much less efficient than he'd ultimately propose.

It was infuriating working with the guy - although we remain good friends now that I've moved on / work somewhere else.

My advice?

Sounds obvious, but (if feasible) give your INTP complex problems to work through, way ahead of schedule. Because fuck.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

Bad idea. INTP and INTJ think in opposite way, even if their interests are same. You know it. In this relationship closer = worse. So if you want keep this relationship don't be as close to her as you can. Keep safe distance, you're both NTs, you both need some private space. Working together will destroy everything. For a reason most ppl say to not mix work with private life. Because if you mix, you will able to chose only one. Your relationship would be worse, or your company will suffer.

Still leaving choice to you.

PS: why not find easygoing and fun ESFP? You will be much more satisfied.

 

[Stark_nor]

Oh, schnelly.

I'm INTP with an INTJ. I've been helping INTJ with his (home-based) company since we met, but I spent about 9 months working for him "full-time".

The business is his life. For me, it was just a set of tasks that I performed 40-50 hours a week in order to bring in money. He didn't vocalize this until much later, but he envisioned my "commitment" to work for him as this ultimate union of love, work, and love-of-work. Every time I resisted his vision (by treating it like a job), it hurt him. In response, he grew cold and controlling. Needless to say, I had to find work elsewhere, and we had to redraw our boundaries.

I realize your brick-and-mortar is a different situation, but you might consider the following, 1) unwelcome transference of your work life power-dynamic to home life (or vice versa); 2) differing levels of passion/commitment to the work; 3) sheer amount of time spent together; 4) her need to maintain her own identity and interests outside your shared work life; and 5) whether she'll actually benefit your company.

Thanks, this summarizes my fears and how I see us as a team.

Re nr 1. So far the home dynamic (of her being relaxed) has transfered to the workplace. In her current job she is very busy and effective at work. I'd like to encourage the same behaviour going forward.

Re nr 2. We're different, no doubt about that. This might be one of the major strenghts regarding us as a team, she will call me out on my bullshit before I use 200 hours on a project which has low or no value. She is also very committed to structure, once it is there. That last part is the challenge, structuring regular "maintenance" work that needs to be done.

Re nr 3. This taxes me more than her. She idle chats a lot, and I cannot find the focus to have 2 thoughts in my head at once. And I need time to "switch to another processing thread".

Re nr 4. Absolutely. She's not the social type and doesn't find people very interesting, until some of the people she meets "clicks" with her. Then she seems to have a blast working with and spending time with them. I cannot offer her the same crazyness or fun. I'm afraid this might be one of the major challenging aspects of this new work relationship. Should I send her off to participate innovation-breakfasts, friday tech-chats or bring her to meetings where I think I should go alone?

Re nr 5. This, I feel, is my responsibillity. To make her do good work. 2 people working well together will achieve way more than 1. 2 people working poorly together will not. She's highly intelligent and effective. I'm highly intelligent and effective. But I'm afraid we might cancel eachother out.

Current groundrules about work and home.

1. No work in livingroom.
2. No work in bedroom.
3. Home is home, exept for work-room or work-desk.

How can those be expanded to "regulate and improve" our work relationship? Currently contemplating that.

Thanks, and good luck with your INTJ - we're dicks sometimes.

 

[PmjPmj]

Thanks, and good luck with your INTJ - we're dicks sometimes.

*smiles and nods, knowingly*

The trick here, young sir, is to be smart like me - marry an ENTJ. You can be unmitigated shitstains to one another and still be deeply in love.

 

[Stark_nor]

It was infuriating working with the guy - although we remain good friends now that I've moved on / work somewhere else.

My advice?

Sounds obvious, but (if feasible) give your INTP complex problems to work through, way ahead of schedule. Because fuck.

Had a INFP co-founder for about a year. Took a while to realize it, but had to buy him out of the company - or there would be no company today. I was part of the problem, sure - but especially under prolonged stress other people can be a real energy-drain.

As I've been through this once, I know the signs in my own performance and mood that something is wrong. And that gives me confidence that I can manage and turn this into something good. Or end it, if it goes wrong.

INTP + complex problem, noted. But how was he with routine tasks?

Bad idea. INTP and INTJ think in opposite way, even if their interests are same. You know it. In this relationship closer = worse. So if you want keep this relationship don't be as close to her as you can. Keep safe distance, you're both NTs, you both need some private space. Working together will destroy everything. For a reason most ppl say to not mix work with private life. Because if you mix, you will able to chose only one. Your relationship would be worse, or your company will suffer.

Still leaving choice to you.

PS: why not find easygoing and fun ESFP? You will be much more satisfied.

The choice has been made. She's joining the company. But I know this will be challenging. And I guess "breaking up work-wise" needs to be a real option down the line.

Her "second choice" is going to school to study for a bachelor degree in mechanics, electronics or "something nature related". If I believed things to be as clear cut and hard as you make them out to be, I wouldn't agree to her joining.

But yeah, bringing her into the company (especially at this size) makes me think twice - hence the INTP forum blogpost.

ESFP down the line, absolutely. My sister may be a ESFP. We have fun.

 

[PmjPmj]

INTP + complex problem, noted. But how was he with routine tasks?

Better than I did, actually. Routine is not the domain of Ni.

He was still somewhat reluctant to engage, but I think he appreciated the tasks if they allowed him to be alone, go onto autopilot and think other problems through.

His record keeping was fucking amazing compared to my own. I didn't give a shiny shit for that stuff. Still struggle today :/

 

[Yellow]

Re nr 4. Absolutely. She's not the social type and doesn't find people very interesting, until some of the people she meets "clicks" with her. Then she seems to have a blast working with and spending time with them. I cannot offer her the same crazyness or fun. I'm afraid this might be one of the major challenging aspects of this new work relationship. Should I send her off to participate innovation-breakfasts, friday tech-chats or bring her to meetings where I think I should go alone?

I guess I wasn't thinking about social life.

It's just that if you're anything like my INTJ, knowing there's someone in the house that's working on projects with you will be irresistible. When I'm "off work", I don't want to talk about work, brainstorm about work, or think about work, except on my own terms. Endless conversations about the next 10,000 steps are exactly as tiresome as actually working on them.

 

[baccheion]

I don't see how INTJs and INTPs could work well together, especially if INTJs are the superiors. INTJs constantly get on my nerves. But as you've already been involved for some time, I suppose this situation may be different.

Pretend you're not romantically involved. She's an INTP:

- Doesn't like being micromanaged or told what to do
- Does not like attention
- Thinks nothing of deadlines
- Needs freedom, autonomy, and flexibility on the job
- Needs challenges to be motivated to work
- Needs quiet and solitude to be able to think
- Does not like needing to spend time dealing with other people

That is, avoid micromanagement or trying to be a manager, ensure there's a lot of quiet to allow thinking, and ensure whatever she's doing isn't time-sensitive. That is, if there's an urgent deadline, you should probably not involve her with that project. If she's interested in doing something and there is an urgent deadline attached, she'll probably still not finish in time.

That said, most of the late or grammar issues (and all the other crap that bothers judger types) really doesn't matter. The problem really arises when INTP procrastination kicks in (can't get herself to do anything no matter how interested). As there isn't yet a solution to that problem, it's about buffering against such moments. That is, whereas many would use (or manufacture) such instances to complain or try to screw over, you'd make them not relevant.

 

[PmjPmj]

INTJs constantly get on my nerves.

If you care to indulge me, I'd love some elaboration on this. As an INTJ manager myself, I get the impression that people actually like me.

Without trying to make you suck an egg here, bear in mind that there are myriad variations within every type; perhaps the INTJs you have encountered are, for example, heavy on the Te and also Enneagram Type 1. That would certainly make for an occasionally overbearing person who was keen to keep on top of everything / everyone, constantly checking progress etc.

Then you have the INTJs like myself (and the ones I know - we're all like this, in fact) who are much heavier on the Ni and also Enneagram Type 5. We're far more prone to outline what needs to be done, then let people do it however they want to. So long as the work is completed on (or close to; either side) the deadline, I don't really care how you arrive at the destination. I hate micromanagement with a passion. I'm all about 'enabling' people, by which I mean 'letting people figure shit out on their own so that they may grow their resourcefulness and critical thinking'.

Of course, some people who like hand-holding probably think I'm shit and a cunt.

As a rule of thumb, I'd argue that any 'INTJ' who is overbearing on the micromanagement side of things is very possibly an ISTJ. I had to work under a couple back in my formative years, and it was hell on earth. Never have I so passionately disliked another human being. I found them to be impossibly short-sighted, incredibly invasive (always breathing down my neck; literally couldn't be out of their sight for 10-15 minutes without getting shit for it) and utterly uninterested in adopting proposed methods of achieving a goal which invariably made more sense and got the job done quicker.

Obviously, not all ISTJs are like that... but in my own experience, fuck ISTJs.

Ugh. The worst. The very fucking worst.

(Actually, ESTJs can give them a damn good run for their money).

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, I've had an INTJ superior (very clear on his type, he's not an ISTJ) who was heavily a micromanager and driving everyone nuts -- he was kind of a team lead / PM and proposal writer.

He and I had very different working styles, and he would take my flexy, go with the flow approach that wasn't as anal about every little detail to be some kind of attack on his reputation. (seriously, if I made a mistake, it was like i had insulted him.) Meanwhile, I resented him breathing down my neck all the time.

The thing is, neither of us were happy. I was too undisciplined and needed to develop some more focus / interest for myself; and he ended up needing to "let go" and chill out, take things as they came. He had a health scare, realized he was killing himself long-term, and suddenly eased up and really got a grasp of what I was contributing, and suddenly he went from "supervisor from hell" to "affirming great manager." Meanwhile, my productivity went up.

But for awhile he was insufferable and we just weren't grasping each other. Once we DID, it was like the difference between day and night.


... I have trouble connecting with most INTJs. It's the Ni thing. I just can't find the connection point in there. it can be frustrating and I wish it wasn't so, but it's just life. And of course, if I can build a rapport with an INTJ, which gives me a kind of " triangulating" sense of who they are -- I know their backstory, main life events, how they act in certain situations -- that helps overcome my not having a quick and easy grasp of them. INFJs can be that way for me too, but the Fe thing enables me to have some kind of relationship with them since I can see how they compose themselves and understand their ambiance and values.

 

[PmjPmj]

What is it about Ni that you find hard to connect with? My best friend is an INTP. No issues with connecting / understanding one another at all - though there are marked differences in how we navigate life, obviously. I would also say that, as we've entered our 30s, we have sort of met in the middle; in my opinion he was always too reductionist/pragmatic about things when younger, and in his opinion I was always too open-minded and prone to speculation. Now however we're both a mix of pragmatic and speculative... reducing that dynamic down a great deal, of course.

FWIW, the INTJ you describe there sounds nothing like the ones I've encountered. If he was 100% an INTJ as you suggest, I'd wager that his health scare was contributed to largely by what sounds like an intense focus on details. Seriously, details are the antichrist to Ni - if he made details his focus he was heading for an inevitable crash and burn. Every single INTJ I've met (quite a few by now) may appear 'sorted' and on the ball externally, but internally, really? We're total airheads, convinced that we could fall into the sky at any given moment. A relentless focus on the external world is not the domain of Ni.

Of course, <insert ramble about myriad variations within the type here>.

I'm glad it worked out in the end, but it's a shame you had to go through a shitty period to find common ground. To myself personally, it makes far more sense to give a person room in which to demonstrate their strengths and weaknesses over a period of a few months or so. It seems highly illogical to impose on others.

... maybe I'm just a hippy, though.

 

[Jennywocky]

What is it about Ni that you find hard to connect with?

How am I supposed to answer that question? Lol.

Essentially I feel like I'm looking at the surface, but I have no clue what is happening underneath it all unless the person actually tracks for me where they are coming from. Typically I just see the outcome of their vision.

With NTP types, I can pretty much predict what their argument is (as long as I know the original assumptions) without ever needing to talk to them.

FWIW, the INTJ you describe there sounds nothing like the ones I've encountered. If he was 100% an INTJ as you suggest, I'd wager that his health scare was contributed to largely by what sounds like an intense focus on details. Seriously, details are the antichrist to Ni - if he made details his focus he was heading for an inevitable crash and burn. Every single INTJ I've met (quite a few by now) may appear 'sorted' and on the ball externally, but internally, really? We're total airheads, convinced that we could fall into the sky at any given moment. A relentless focus on the external world is not the domain of Ni.

yeah, whatever. He's an INTJ, even down to the weakness of Se.

But yes, at some point in his life, he probably felt like he had to succeed at all costs and became very driven in order to find value in himself, and it was clear the detail obsession was killing him and making him a beast to deal with. Once he had his "epiphany," he became much more like what you'd expect.

I'm glad it worked out in the end, but it's a shame you had to go through a shitty period to find common ground. [/quote4]
It was bad. He tried to get me fired at one point, and HR said, "Uh, you've never even given a bad performance review or discuss the problem(s)." That year was awful and my depression reached an all-time high (along with anxiety and paranoia).

Which makes it pretty amazing that by the time I found a new job a few years later and was leaving the company, he was sad to see me go. I'm glad it was a bad story that broke good, versus a good story that broke bad.

To myself personally, it makes far more sense to give a person room in which to demonstrate their strengths and weaknesses over a period of a few months or so. It seems highly illogical to impose on others.

... maybe I'm just a hippy, though.

Well, of course I think all that makes sense. It's a bit different when you're in a position of authority, though, and/or an entire enterprise is dependent on you achieving goals you aren't doing the work for. (Plus we were dealing with a very political-minded / technically inept organization and didn't want to lose contracts, etc.)

Basically for me when I take on a leadership position, I like to screen for and hire folks who I think can do the job and are aligned with the vision, so then I can trust them to do the work and get the job done. I don't really care how they do it, and I'm aware of what they are good at and weak at (so I try to get others to cover the weak spots so they can focus on the strengths). I don't really like to micromanage at all and am kind of the opposite, so I just have to make sure I hire the right people and train them adequately so they maintain the course I'm charting but can get there in any way they want. My weakness is in sometimes assuming too much or being too hands off, since I don't like to intrude, but then I can be frustrated if something veers off-course.

 

[PmjPmj]

How am I supposed to answer that question? Lol.

Exactly as you did.

Essentially I feel like I'm looking at the surface, but I have no clue what is happening underneath it all unless the person actually tracks for me where they are coming from. Typically I just see the outcome of their vision.

Hmm. So, would it be correct to assume that you like to have a person's thinking explicitly mapped out? If so, that's interesting.

I know I'm often reluctant to explain my thought process. A lot of the processing goes on in a subconscious or semi-conscious capacity, so examining the how and why I arrived at conclusion A about topic 2 is exhausting... and often results in incredibly haphazard explanations. Plus, I always want everything bottom-lined. I have no time nor patience for the intricacies of things; in this way, myself and my INTP friend differ greatly. He's often frustrated by my inability to care about things in any real depth. I'm all about forming impressions - not deep-diving.

Sorry for the brief reply - I'm trying to balance study and kids tonight. For what it's worth however I appreciate the response.

 

[Yellow]

Hmm. So, would it be correct to assume that you like to have a person's thinking explicitly mapped out? If so, that's interesting.

I'll answer this one.. YES. If I'm working for someone who is detail-oriented, I need to know exactly what they want.

INTJs can be very poor communicators. If they took this into account, and grew some chill, it would be fine. Most just assume that their communication is satisfactory, and that everyone else "is being stupid on purpose". I think it's the combination of strong Ni and weak Fi (ENTJs do this too).

We're not psychic. If I'm to be held responsible for the idea in your head, I need to know what you envision. Precisely, succinctly, and explicitly. I'm not good at taking hints, and there's no way I'm going to guess correctly at your actual meaning. If you can't manage that, then you just has to live with whatever I've produced on my own (I call that "Plan A").

I'd be afraid of derailing the thread at this point, except I think we're sufficiently addressing OP's concerns.

 

[PmjPmj]

I'll answer this one.. YES. If I'm working for someone who is detail-oriented, I need to know exactly what they want.

That makes sense. These days it's rare that I have to produce work for anyone else (thankfully) but I like to check in with them to get a rough outline of what they want. I think, to a point at least, that's just normal humie behaviour.

INTJs can be very poor communicators. If they took this into account, and grew some chill, it would be fine. Most just assume that their communication is satisfactory, and that everyone else "is being stupid on purpose". I think it's the combination of strong Ni and weak Fi (ENTJs do this too).

Yup, no arguments here. I hate explaining myself in the first instance. If you ask me to repeat myself because you mistook something I said for whatever reason, go ahead and assume safely that my inner-rage is bordering on incandescence. Try as I might, I do not have the patience for people who can't communicate quickly and effectively. Tremendously hypocritical of me - as anyone who has engaged me in conversation prior to my morning coffee will no doubt attest.

Communication is definitely something I need to work on. More in terms of 'putting up with others', because as you quite rightly highlight - it isn't the stupidity of others which causes miscommunication. Most often it's probably my terseness and overall inability to engage in lengthy dialogues because I have far more interesting things to do with my time.

I'm an arrogant piece of shit - but at least I acknowledge it and understand that I need to work on it.

As an aside, I sometimes find INTPs to be too verbose and / or slow to enunciate their thoughts. I think we could definitely work on meeting in the middle somewhere.

I like the mirror you guys have held up to me.

*checks mirror*

Yup - still a cunt ;/

 

[Creeping Death]

I used to work with an INTJ friend of mine, he referred me to the job. We worked with chemistry, because of this we were often paired together at the start because important things would get done. We rarely got on each others nerves, but this is probably because we knew each other well before I was hired.

Unfortunately we were split up and purposefully put with people who we didn't get along with and/or were unofficially tasked by the boss to spy on us. She felt threatened by us, because she knew we trusted each other and could see through her bullshit and wouldn't hesitate to go over her head to let the big bosses know what was going on. INTP/INTJ can make a great work team. We were on the same 'team' and everyone else was slightly jealous of us.

Anyways, working with him was productive and we could still bullshit and have fun while getting everything done that we needed to do. I suppose it may not have been so good to work with an INTJ who I didn't previously know or share common interests with. If it were INTP/INTP the environment may be just as fun, but not as productive. It seems the INTJ can persuade an INTP to be productive better than SJ types. We can engage in mental masturbation with each other while doing our job. (Or real masturbation with each other sometimes.. in the bathrooms during lunch hour.. fun times. don't pretend you haven't thought about doing this with your fav coworker)

 

[Yellow]

As an aside, I sometimes find INTPs to be too verbose and / or slow to enunciate their thoughts. I think we could definitely work on meeting in the middle somewhere.

For myself, my slowness is an attempt to be precise. I realize the irony there for an INTJ. For you, precise includes an element of succinctness. For us, accuracy is held in a higher regard.

I don't want to give a "yes or no" answer when there is a possibility that either are not completely accurate. Since nothing is so black and white, you could self-immolate and still not get a simple answer.

I feel absolutely compelled to outline the entire issue and all of the pertinent factors when giving an answer, so that you can see my considerations. It's like I need to show my work. If I'm confident in my conclusion, I'm showing you why, so I don't have to waste time defending it or dealing with already discarded alternatives. If I'm not confident, I'm showing you my journey, so you already know which ideas I've discarded, and which I've considered.

Another ironic moment here, I've just realized that the rambling is actually an attempt at time-saving.

There are few things more annoying than someone bringing up an idea or consideration that I've already thought of. Since I'm pretty sure I've thought of everything, you need a list of things not to waste our time with. That's what the rambling is for.

Remember, we only pretend to be nicer than INTJs. Deep down, we're assholes too.

 

[PmjPmj]

Sorry, in a rush here - no time to proofread.

For myself, my slowness is an attempt to be precise. I realize the irony there for an INTJ. For you, precise includes an element of succinctness. For us, accuracy is held in a higher regard.

Yup. I can't speak for others but I definitely favour concise exchanges of information. That being said, get me chatting about a topic I'm really interested in and whilst I'll still be as succinct as possible, I can quickly become verbose and animated.

Would you agree that it'd be correct to say (in your experience, of course) that where an INTJ cares most for making a point eloquently yet succinctly in discourse, an INTP cares most for elucidating a topic in painstaking detail for the sake of accuracy?

I don't want to give a "yes or no" answer when there is a possibility that either are not completely accurate. Since nothing is so black and white, you could self-immolate and still not get a simple answer.

I can see how this would occasionally be irritating to me. I 100% understand that few things are black and white, but my Te compels me quite forcefully to reach conclusions, be it my own or those sought from an external source. I think the degree of my introversion further exacerbates this issue because, on the whole, I'm quite grumpy in my dealings with the external. I want to spend as little time as possible shooting the shit with someone (unless it's a topic I care deeply about). I can be tremendously blind to my own inefficiency at times, but that of others? It's like a flashing neon sign to me. If someone is inconveniencing me because they're taking too long to execute something, or reach a conclusion in discussion, I quickly find myself wanting to immolate them.

Again - I'm aware this is a problem. In spite of this most people (until they know me, at least ) would - and have - describe me as polite, perhaps even charming. I tend to be rather inoffensive / remain in the background; I do what I can to minimise exposure to situations which could drag me in to necessary and prolonged interaction. I suppose the fact that I'm a 5 plays in to this. Avarice with time and energy.

I feel absolutely compelled to outline the entire issue and all of the pertinent factors when giving an answer, so that you can see my considerations. It's like I need to show my work. If I'm confident in my conclusion, I'm showing you why, so I don't have to waste time defending it or dealing with already discarded alternatives. If I'm not confident, I'm showing you my journey, so you already know which ideas I've discarded, and which I've considered.

That's admirable, but I'd rarely if ever want you to go to those lengths.

1) Have you reached a conclusion? Yes or no?

2) What is it?

Always bottom line it for me. The second you start elaborating on the intricacies is the very moment I start becoming impatient. I fully understand that the workings out may be important to you, but I'm trying to get ten other things done here. I have been told that "Skip to the end" and "Bottom line it" (whilst rolling my eyes and / or sighing) are two of my trademarks.

I must sound like a total prick here, but I'm actually not - I'm a decent person, and the company I keep reflects that. I think I can just be rather blunt at times, is all.

There are few things more annoying than someone bringing up an idea or consideration that I've already thought of. Since I'm pretty sure I've thought of everything, you need a list of things not to waste our time with. That's what the rambling is for.

Makes perfect sense. I always appreciate it when I broach a topic and someone like yourself says "Well, I've already considered this, this and that - we don't need to go over it again; here are the conclusions". So long as it's brief

Remember, we only pretend to be nicer than INTJs. Deep down, we're assholes too.

Pft! The INTPs I know are capable of being FAR more abrupt and combative than I am the difference is they seem to care more when the fuck up socially. I really don't; I always strive to be polite and fair. If I cause someone to be offended it's most often due to a simple misunderstanding and / or the other party being immature (for example, they're a snowflake who has trouble dealing with the facts of a situation). I think the fabled death stare makes us look far less approachable on the whole; eventually people realise that I / we just have terrible cases of RBF and get over any reluctance they had to engage us in the first instance.

 

[baccheion]

If you care to indulge me, I'd love some elaboration on this. As an INTJ manager myself, I get the impression that people actually like me.

Without trying to make you suck an egg here, bear in mind that there are myriad variations within every type; perhaps the INTJs you have encountered are, for example, heavy on the Te and also Enneagram Type 1. That would certainly make for an occasionally overbearing person who was keen to keep on top of everything / everyone, constantly checking progress etc.

Then you have the INTJs like myself (and the ones I know - we're all like this, in fact) who are much heavier on the Ni and also Enneagram Type 5. We're far more prone to outline what needs to be done, then let people do it however they want to. So long as the work is completed on (or close to; either side) the deadline, I don't really care how you arrive at the destination. I hate micromanagement with a passion. I'm all about 'enabling' people, by which I mean 'letting people figure shit out on their own so that they may grow their resourcefulness and critical thinking'.

Of course, some people who like hand-holding probably think I'm shit and a cunt.

As a rule of thumb, I'd argue that any 'INTJ' who is overbearing on the micromanagement side of things is very possibly an ISTJ. I had to work under a couple back in my formative years, and it was hell on earth. Never have I so passionately disliked another human being. I found them to be impossibly short-sighted, incredibly invasive (always breathing down my neck; literally couldn't be out of their sight for 10-15 minutes without getting shit for it) and utterly uninterested in adopting proposed methods of achieving a goal which invariably made more sense and got the job done quicker.

Obviously, not all ISTJs are like that... but in my own experience, fuck ISTJs.

Ugh. The worst. The very fucking worst.

(Actually, ESTJs can give them a damn good run for their money).

I meant in general. They tend to be dismissive, insulting, arrogant (grossly overestimating or overvaluing their abilities), off-putting, risk averse, cowardly, competitive, and prone to talking down to others. Also, they are prone to pointing BS accusations in my direction and they never admit they're wrong.

Judgers generally tend to get in my way and limit my ability to do what I'm trying to do, as they need a schedule for everything, try to force me on one (that they magically happen to have), and tend to need everything spelt out for them. That is, some random judger I don't know magically feels perfectly entitled to get in my way as I'm working on something, because I'm not doing it as they would, so I'm clearly not doing it properly.

 

[PmjPmj]

Yeah, so... everything you mention there *perfectly* describes the ISTJ bosses I've had - yet not a single INTJ I've encountered.

I'm sure such INTJs exist of course - just saying FWIW.

 

[redbaron]

From INTP perspective:

ENTJ bosses are great, INTJs are actually pretty shitty I think.

The ENTJ is basically capable of combining process with vision, whereas the INTJ is just "muh vision" and is a liability in most aspects of business because "muh vision" always comes first (even above good process). The end justifies the means for an INTJ and 90% of them have no actual lives and don't realise that not everyone else cares about "career".

ENTJs are more accepting of this fact for some reason that I can only chalk up to the fact that Te-dom makes them more externally oriented and therefore much easier to actually interact with on a day to day basis - they can be domineering or demanding but at least their desires are clear and not some internally-derived mumbo jumbo fuckwank that even they can barely express.

If she works for you, you'll need to communicate your short term needs and why they're your needs. INTPs are productive if they can see a purpose or find a good reason to do it. INTJs usually don't have good reasons beyond their own personal desire to see a thing done, which no INTP is gonna care about. Be more ENTJ and talk processes and rational things an INTP can appreciate.

 

[PmjPmj]

internally-derived mumbo jumbo fuckwank.

Muh vision!