Interesting conclusion.

[Aerl]

Imagine a criminal that has committed a terrible crime. Now imagine that before he dies he has 5 minutes of clear thought, realising what he did was wrong, how it was wrong, how much suffering he has caused. What would he write as a message to those living? Knowing that everyone before death has a 5 minute period of "clear vision". ( This could be described as torture before death, in a very inhumane manner).

Spoiler

This, second part of the question is not requered to answer it's just something to ponder about...

Now imagine someone intentionally causing deaths with that as a bonus, and victims get knowledge of this the moment they enter "clear vision state", what would they add as a bonus to that note, to that particular person?

p.s. Is this the moment when words such as "cruelty is sometimes a necessery evil", making it righteous...?

 

[StevenM]

I believe that what he writes would be disregarded and scoffed at by many of those still living. I'm not saying that we should disregard and scoff at it though.

 

[Methodician]

Too complicated, too many variables, and plus we'd never know what it's like to be that person during those 5 minutes. I'm out...

 

[Aerl]

@TMills27, I'm not asking what people would think or do with the message, I instead want to know what can you imagine he would write in it.

@Methodician, it's as if you can't imagine alternative yourself who has indulged in pedophilia and in his last 5 minutes before death having your current selfs mind switched and realising just how wrong what he did is... knowing there is no escape from death, what his last words would be?

This is in a sense me asking you, to deliberately hurt yourself, for the sake of knowledge. Anyone who's not interested is fine not to reply.

 

[Methodician]

It might have helped if you specified a condition/crime such as pedophilia. But, then, you still have to try to get into the mind of a psychopath and really grasp what it would feel like to predate pretty little children, take them off to your layer, rape and abuse them, and either kill them or release them back into the wold. Sorry, I just don't know what that feels like.

It's no easier to tell you how I'd feel if I had just stabbed my grandmother in the throat and drowned my sister in the sink... How does a relatively healthy-minded person imagine what that would be like? Anyone who attempts it just doesn't realize how far off anything they could imagine probably is from the truth. I'd probably be feeling some wacky combo of the stress and anxiety, fear of getting caught, with the satisfaction of finally doing away with my pesky relatives. Again, no idea really... how can you figure?

That's what I don't like about this type of thought experiment. It puts you in an uncomfortable place and lets you imagine things that probably have nothing to do with the reality of the situation and probably serves no real purpose.

 

[StevenM]

Is it really a true fact that people have 5 minutes of clear vision just before their death?


EDIT: Ok, a quick google search, and now I seem a bit more confident that it isn't a fact (Or at least, a well known one). Sorry :P

 

[BigApplePi]

Imagine a criminal that has committed a terrible crime. Now imagine that before he dies he has 5 minutes of clear thought, realising what he did was wrong, how it was wrong, how much suffering he has caused. What would he write as a message to those living? Knowing that everyone before death has a 5 minute period of "clear vision". ( This could be described as torture before death, in a very inhumane manner).

A. Ah me. What the hell. I did that. Thems the breaks. I guess I'm doomed.

B. I'm sorry I did what I did. If you read this, I regret I did this and hope others who are so inclined will abstain as they will come to regret as I have they caused so much suffering. I hope this confession will ease your pain if you are one of my victims.

 

[Methodician]

A. Ah me. What the hell. I did that. Thems the breaks. I guess I'm doomed.

B. I'm sorry I did what I did. If you read this, I regret I did this and hope others who are so inclined will abstain as they will come to regret as I have they caused so much suffering. I hope this confession will ease your pain if you are one of my victims.

I have to admit that's pretty good. Just because you managed to put some words into it without actually assuming anything too hard to assume...

 

[Aerl]

If you want it a miriad times simplified:

How do you tell to children that 2+2=3 is wrong?

You need to know what it feels like to do something wrong and afterwards realise it. My question asks you to relive the most horrible thing you realised you did wrong and tell me what would you tell to someone to prevent them from doing it?

edit: How do you define pain to a child that never felt pain, how would you define it is wrong if not by letting them feel it, we are truely horrible beings... but isin't it that what makes us beautiful, that once we know what it means to hurt, we know how horrible it can be. So we avoid it so badly and are afraid of it as to go so far, as to not tell others the truth of what we feel or think, suffer internally and lie, thinking it's better that way, but we have never been more wrong than that. And it's normal, it's even enforced by law, and ethics, by religion, and communities, by everything but nature.

 

[Minuend]

Sumthin liek this: A Photographer Asked Convicts To Write To Their Younger Selves

I didn't see any immediate signs of falsehood, but I do not guarantee it's not fake.

 

[Methodician]

Sumthin liek this: A Photographer Asked Convicts To Write To Their Younger Selves

I didn't see any immediate signs of falsehood, but I do not guarantee it's not fake.

There you have it. Real criminals who really know what it's like to do those things... I'm actually pretty interested and might come back to this and read a few when I have the time...

 

[Aerl]

@Minuend, even if it is, it's still someone putting themselves into their shoes, and it's no diferent from my question.

I am a lazy person and I prefer other humans to do the job for me. Don't get offended, I really aprishiate your part in all this, without you, I'm nothing.

 

[Helvete]

you still have to try to get into the mind of a psychopath

Do you? Serious crime isn't limited to psychopaths.

-----

Sorry everyone, I fucked up, bad feels now. What happened happened and nothing can change this, I wish I could but I can't. I also know that you all wish me a similar end and for your sakes memories of me are erased asap.

Now I will embrace my death.
The circles of life will carry on.

 

[Base groove]

There you have it. Real criminals who really know what it's like to do those things... I'm actually pretty interested and might come back to this and read a few when I have the time...

Don't bother. I read them; it pretty much seems like most of them were written for somebody else instead, even though that's not even the point of the exercise. None of the testimonials are particularly moving.

 

[Aerl]

Also wanted to point out, I believe prisoners who went through hell itself and realised how wrong they were and what is valuable in life to be far more successful than an average man, They were wrong, but they didin't stop half way, they commited terrible crimes, but what they found ... that's worth a lifetime. That's my opinion. But the question is, is there a bigger pain than what death can bring. I'd probably wish myself to die in the most agonizing death possible.

 

[Helvete]

Also wanted to point out, I believe prisoners who went through hell itself and realised how wrong they were and what is valuable in life to be far more successful than an average man, They were wrong, but they didin't stop half way, they commited terrible crimes, but what they found ... that's worth a lifetime. That's my opinion. But the question is, is there a bigger pain than what death can bring. I'd probably wish myself to die in the most agonizing death possible.

Say someone who'd committed a crime of terrible nature, lived through the experience and reformed after and was integrated back into society. Having learnt this wealth of experience that the average person will never come close to experiencing and will now never commit again. Does this make them mentally superior to others, almost along the same lines as reaching a higher conciousness like a Buddhist guru? I mean could you reach a sense of enlightenment from the opposite and of the spectrum?

 

[Aerl]

Buddhists prove it possible, it's personal preference which one of two roads you prefer, the bad or good, both lead to the same place. Both are Right.

" War doesn't deside who is Right, only those who are Left "


edit: Would you chose feeling good untill you reach the end of your journey and finally find that there is nothing, but disatisfaction, despair and pain?
OR would you take on a journey that is agonyzing and cruel, abusing and humiliating, so inhumane that you strugle even to continue it, but once you reach the end, You find enlightnment that is so beautiful that you're in AWE?

 

[Helvete]

Do you mean Buddhists prove both roads possible?

 

[Aerl]

What I'm saying is that Buddhists take the peaceful road, which provides reward on each step, but ultimately there is nothing to learn from the road than what you have been doing all along. Buddha said, all living beings suffer, and only through the path of enlightenment can they free themselves from it.

If Buddha told everyone that he will now hurt them and humiliate to such extend that they would want to kill him and only when they would let go of those desires they would be freed. Because they would become enlightened only than. Who would want to participate in such system? You think people in prisons want to get into prisons? That's our analogy to Buddhism.

edit: While the 1st road is easy and certain, the 2nd is dangerous and hard, but rewarding.

edit2: p.s. I do believe you read what I wrote in my previos thread. (My 1 minute speech)

 

[Helvete]

What I'm saying is that Buddhists take the peaceful road, which provides reward on each step, but ultimately there is nothing to learn from the road than what you have been doing all along. Buddha said, all living beings suffer, and only through the path of enlightenment can they free themselves from it.

If Buddha told everyone that he will now hurt them and humiliate to such extend that they would want to kill him and only when they would let go of those desires they would be freed. Because they would become enlightened only than. Who would want to participate in such system? You think people in prisons want to get into prisons? That's our analogy to Buddhism.

edit: While the 1st road is easy and certain, the 2nd is dangerous and hard, but rewarding.

edit2: p.s. I do believe you read what I wrote in my previos thread. (My 1 minute speech)

Yes I read your other thread and see the clear links.

But I don't think the 1st road is an easy way, or everyone would just do that. Most people don't; don't take either road. Both are very hard.

The 1st takes time and perseverance and could take years before anything is achieved, I can see lots of people giving up on this. It takes too much self control.

The 2nd takes guts, a leap of faith where you will never truly know where you'll land. After the leap nothing is guaranteed either; there's the self realisation process, which could be an unspecified amount of time.

 

[Aerl]

My point is, just like I pointed in that other thread, after you suffer so greatly as to realise the absurdity of life that we can't tell others how we feel because they are very likely to get hurt so bad as to not understand.

Would you go so bold as to say we may never be friends if we knew what each of us hides from everyone, and understand it? I believe we'd become greater friends than someone who lies and hides an entrance to their sacred sanctuary, but for that to happen, both need to understand what is truely natural and not dismiss something just because they don't understand or it doesn't comform to their world view.

edit: I would have just posted something that might have sounded like what "The Void" would write but colored in rainbows, It would not be fair for me to force my views and their logic on to others if they don't want to, it would not be fair by your rules.

I will refrain from this, from now on.

edit2:If you want a very short summary of what I think is holding everyone back and logic behind it than my speech is written there for everyone to see and read.

If you want an even more simplified version of what I want to say: Learn to accept.

The magnitude of meaning behind it will never be withing the system of rules. You will never understand the meaning behind it... like I do now.

The only reason we kill is because we can't accept and won't accept others, what happens when leaders of great countries don't accept each others views? I want you to tell me, what will happen, tell me .... the answer is right there before your eyes, so obvious.

Justice is truly blind, it's the most blind thing in the world.

 

[Helvete]

My point is, just like I pointed in that other thread, after you suffer so greatly as to realise the absurdity of life that we can't tell others how we feel because they are very likely to get hurt so bad as to not understand.

Would you go so bold as to say we may never be friends if we knew what each of us hides from everyone, and understand it? I believe we'd become greater friends than someone who lies and hides an entrance to their sacred sanctuary, but for that to happen, both need to understand what is truely natural and not dismiss something just because they don't understand or it doesn't comform to their world view.

I think it would be a case of understanding why they're hiding it rather than understanding what they're hiding. Working out the motives of the deception will make for a clearer decision. For example with myself I'll often direct the conversation away from talking about myself; not from trying to hide personal information, whether people know or not I'm indifferent about. Only because I hate explaining myself and I can find it really mentally draining. It feels like a chore.
So would I be more disliked if everyone knew that? I shouldn't think so if they knew that's what I do for these reasons.

I would hazard that after everybody understands why people tell their lies, there would be a very mixed reception; as not everybody lies solely to do bad, but often to save the other party from whatever they think needs to be censored.
But if this uncovering of deception ever happened, people wouldn't do it anymore as deception would be redundant.

It's all down to trust and understanding; once people understand and trust each other, people will be more than willing to open up and develop very deep friendships.

Have you seen this thread? I think the concepts are quite similar.

 

[Aerl]

It's all down to trust and understanding; once people understand and trust each other, people will be more than willing to open up and develop very deep friendships.

Have you seen this thread? I think the concepts are quite similar.

I am not sure what to think, definitions are rigid and forceful, 4th stage even suggests blind judgment and execusions of requests without any thinking. Treating everyone diferently suggests the lack of fairness also, a fundamental rule which was completely ignored. I'm not sure to laugh or to cry. This just makes me sad how rigid a mindset can be...

edit: p.s. if you find any of my work that exibits such traits I'd be more than willing to correct and rewrite it in a fair way.

 

[Helvete]

I am not sure what to think, definitions are rigid and forceful, 4th stage even suggests blind judgment and execusions of requests without any thinking. Treating everyone diferently suggests the lack of fairness also, a fundamental rule which was completely ignored. I'm not sure to laugh or to cry. This just makes me sad how rigid a mindset can be...

edit: p.s. if you find any of my work that exibits such traits I'd be more than willing to correct and rewrite it in a fair way.

Yes, the categories are rigid, but also very broad. If I spent a little time I could easily place everybody I knew in there somewhere. Layer 4 is slightly tricky and interesting. I think people will have different criteria that enables people to enter. So some people will probably have to prove themselves on trial to a number of defence mechanisms etc. Others it can happen almost instantaneously. In fact I could say this for any of the layers; the meaning of why you're there stays the same, but what's ambiguous is how you get to that layer.

I also think it's important to note, only speaking for myself here though, that this is a completely subconscious thought process irl. Just happens undetected even from myself.

PM me if you like about this, I can try explain in more detail, as I don't have much time now.