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Insight on Psychology

JoeM

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Hey Guys,

I want you to ask what you think about this:

The normal human psychology is "forced" to feel loved/get love. We don't exactly know what this love is tho, only that it causes a positive reaction in ourselves. So with Love the universe is kinda able to force humans to live together in a certain way. Only with Logic and Mindful Awareness we are able to withstand this influence and to create a way of freedom for our lives.

Probably this is a standard Idea for INTPs. But I kinda have the feeling that love is not just a good thing, it is also a utility to undermine our potential freedom.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Your attachment doesn't restrict freedom. You still get to choose how you respond to that attachment. If you choose to respond to that attachment as if it controls you, that's your choice.
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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You can function without it but if not you get depression.
You need a substitute if it was not instilled in you.
a strong willpower.
 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
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You could just as easily say that food is a utility to undermine our potential freedom as we have to eat. Someone can go ahead and exercise their free will to not eat, but they'll likely run into problems if they do. As we live in a life constrained by a number of variables that are basically necessary for our survival.

To me love and community falls under that category, it's a basic human need. Some people cope without it better or need more alone time than others, but chances are if a person were completely devoid of it for a long period of time their mental health will be effected like what Animekitty says.

I don't see the point in applying logic to dissociate from this reality personally. I just accept that within the constraint of being human meeting my needs leads to my life being happier and easier. And given the choice I don't see why I'd voluntarily make it more difficult.
 

PiedPiper

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Hey Guys,

I want you to ask what you think about this:

The normal human psychology is "forced" to feel loved/get love. We don't exactly know what this love is tho, only that it causes a positive reaction in ourselves. So with Love the universe is kinda able to force humans to live together in a certain way. Only with Logic and Mindful Awareness we are able to withstand this influence and to create a way of freedom for our lives.

Probably this is a standard Idea for INTPs. But I kinda have the feeling that love is not just a good thing, it is also a utility to undermine our potential freedom.
The world teaches love, preaches love, idolizes love. But hate is never taught. To hate is pure, it is honest, without fault. Love and hate are within the same margins, only altered energy. And so they had become as lovers to hate. You hate love because it is not pure. Humans have forgotten how to love, truly love. Reflect for a moment on it.

There is no one way to love, that is not found in full capacity within yourself. Just as there is ability to hate, there is that full power to love. Your society, your god, your religion has taught you wrong. Delusion is bred from the same constructs that taught you right from wrong. Do you not think it ironic society crumbles under such restrictions.
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
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The world teaches love, preaches love, idolizes love.
The media say you should love, and that love is good.

They also say that you should love animals, and never hurt animals, and yet those people who were taught that by the media, eat animals almost every day, and millions of them are cruel to animals.

But hate is never taught.
How many people hate Vladimir Putin, who never met him, never met anyone who met him, and who only know what the media taught them about Vladimir Putin?

The normal human psychology is "forced" to feel loved/get love.
Plenty of men around who haven't had love for years, and don't seem to be seeking out getting love. Plenty of older women who haven't had love for years, and don't seem to be seeking out getting love.

We don't exactly know what this love is tho, only that it causes a positive reaction in ourselves. So with Love the universe is kinda able to force humans to live together in a certain way.
Would you make a lot of effort to seek out ice cream, if you've never tasted it, and no-one else says its good to eat?

Only with Logic and Mindful Awareness we are able to withstand this influence and to create a way of freedom for our lives.
In that case, angry incels would be purely logical, and people who have been living with a woman and kids for 20 years, would be unable to do the most basic of logic.

Probably this is a standard Idea for INTPs. But I kinda have the feeling that love is not just a good thing, it is also a utility to undermine our potential freedom.
Most people with kids usually don't move to Australia without their kids. But some do.

However, almost all people with arms usually don't move to Australia without their arms either.

So if you believe love undermines potential freedom, then having arms also undermines potential freedom.

You can go to Australia without the people you love. It's just that most people prefer to stay with the people they love, than move to Australia without them.

So it's more the case that people prefer love to personal freedom.
 

PiedPiper

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The world teaches love, preaches love, idolizes love.
The media say you should love, and that love is good.

They also say that you should love animals, and never hurt animals, and yet those people who were taught that by the media, eat animals almost every day, and millions of them are cruel to animals.

But hate is never taught.
How many people hate Vladimir Putin, who never met him, never met anyone who met him, and who only know what the media taught them about Vladimir Putin?



I was intending to say that "hate is never taught 'correctly'. Instead of just telling someone its flat out wrong, it needs to be cultivated along with other emotions. Yes hate is taught in civilized nations, yet usually it is subtly manipulative, and thus impure. You SHOULD hate stalin or putin, because we say so. And its 'morally correct' to do so. I suppose by the sheer over-socialized version of love that we are printing out like drones, hate is actually being cultivated. Just not in a very ideal way. A kid grows up watching TV, stupid romanticized princess fairy castles where everyone finds love and there's got to be "that perfect relationship", then maturity happens once he hits reality. And she's no sympathetic player. I mean, this could be a 10 hour discussion.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Can you give an archetypal example of productive hate?

If you had a child, and you wanted to teach them to hate correctly, what would you teach them?
 

PiedPiper

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Can you give an archetypal example of productive hate?

If you had a child, and you wanted to teach them to hate correctly, what would you teach them?
1. Energy can be manipulated and controlled.
2. Hate is not inherently evil. (very complex subject)
3. Hate is one of the strongest driving factors in the human psyche.

Think about it, when was the last time depression motivated you to do something? What about anxiety? Or even happiness. But hate, I mean unbridled, unleashed, simmering hate, there is nothing like it. And it takes quite a strong individual to consume it and use it to their benefit. You harness it yes, but you don't dispel it where it isnt needed.

For example, a child, we'll call him "Ray" checks in at school. He's rather small boned and is prone to getting bullied, beat up, and ridiculed. Over the years he learns to harness it, but never how to use it. His parents tell him to tell the teacher, the teacher doesn't really care. "STand up for yourself" his brother might say. So he comes to school one day with a gun and kills half the class. "Huh, I wonder why that happened" everyone asks. They target the reason but never the 'reason'. Then you've got these internet experts, "What an evil kid, what a horrible thing to do, he could have chose different, violence is never the answer. " Yada yada, yet the how-to is NEVER addressed. Let's barricade the doors, lets have security checks, remove all guns, throw him in a rehab facility, IT DOESNT WORK PEOPLE, you are applying a string bandage to a gaping wound. When the hell are you going to figure that out?
Could he have turned that hate into a drive for protecting and standing up for all those who are like him, for establishing better treatment or perhaps used every last bit of that energy to start a career. Something none of those other kids ever could have done. Yes, but who's giving a shit? No one seems to care about Ray. So Ray does what his mind is telling him, to kill. To eliminate, to wipe out the threat. Hate tends to stem from fear and when that fear isnt addressed properly it grows like a wolf. Or shrinks like a hare. In which case now you have anxiety and rage, fight or flight. And hate often wins because it can be much stronger than fear. Hence its power.
 

BurnedOut

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The normal human psychology is "forced" to feel loved/get love. We don't exactly know what this love is tho, only that it causes a positive reaction in ourselves. So with Love the universe is kinda able to force humans to live together in a certain way. Only with Logic and Mindful Awareness we are able to withstand this influence and to create a way of freedom for our lives.
How stoned are you?
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Can you give an archetypal example of productive hate?

If you had a child, and you wanted to teach them to hate correctly, what would you teach them?
1. Energy can be manipulated and controlled.
2. Hate is not inherently evil. (very complex subject)
3. Hate is one of the strongest driving factors in the human psyche.

Think about it, when was the last time depression motivated you to do something? What about anxiety? Or even happiness. But hate, I mean unbridled, unleashed, simmering hate, there is nothing like it. And it takes quite a strong individual to consume it and use it to their benefit. You harness it yes, but you don't dispel it where it isnt needed.

For example, a child, we'll call him "Ray" checks in at school. He's rather small boned and is prone to getting bullied, beat up, and ridiculed. Over the years he learns to harness it, but never how to use it. His parents tell him to tell the teacher, the teacher doesn't really care. "STand up for yourself" his brother might say. So he comes to school one day with a gun and kills half the class. "Huh, I wonder why that happened" everyone asks. They target the reason but never the 'reason'. Then you've got these internet experts, "What an evil kid, what a horrible thing to do, he could have chose different, violence is never the answer. " Yada yada, yet the how-to is NEVER addressed. Let's barricade the doors, lets have security checks, remove all guns, throw him in a rehab facility, IT DOESNT WORK PEOPLE, you are applying a string bandage to a gaping wound. When the hell are you going to figure that out?
Could he have turned that hate into a drive for protecting and standing up for all those who are like him, for establishing better treatment or perhaps used every last bit of that energy to start a career. Something none of those other kids ever could have done. Yes, but who's giving a shit? No one seems to care about Ray. So Ray does what his mind is telling him, to kill. To eliminate, to wipe out the threat. Hate tends to stem from fear and when that fear isnt addressed properly it grows like a wolf. Or shrinks like a hare. In which case now you have anxiety and rage, fight or flight. And hate often wins because it can be much stronger than fear. Hence its power.

Anxiety is the fuel that drives these bones. Not towards success but away from failure. You're probably asking the wrong person.

I feel as if you got lost before completing your answer? I ask you what productive hate looks like and you talk about school shootings. :S
 

Puffy

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I would be interested to hear some productive examples of hate as well.

To critique your example, you don’t need hatred to protect your boundaries or to stand up for others as anger already does that. With the distinguishing factor that hatred intrinsically involves wishing suffering upon others where anger can just be self-defence. Anger stands up to the bully, but it takes hatred to plot a school shooting.
 

Rook

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The normal human psychology is "forced" to feel loved/get love. We don't exactly know what this love is tho, only that it causes a positive reaction in ourselves. So with Love the universe is kinda able to force humans to live together in a certain way. Only with Logic and Mindful Awareness we are able to withstand this influence and to create a way of freedom for our lives.
How stoned are you?
whoz asking
 

scorpiomover

The little professor
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I was intending to say that "hate is never taught 'correctly'. Instead of just telling someone its flat out wrong, it needs to be cultivated along with other emotions.
Yes. Hate affects behaviour, which affects other things, and so often has a cascading negative effects, such as escalation of conflict into sectarian violence and war.

Yes hate is taught in civilized nations, yet usually it is subtly manipulative, and thus impure. You SHOULD hate stalin or putin, because we say so. And its 'morally correct' to do so.
"Daddy, why do we hate the Russians?" BECAUSE I SAY SO, is not really a great answer.
 

scorpiomover

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Can you give an archetypal example of productive hate?

If you had a child, and you wanted to teach them to hate correctly, what would you teach them?
Well, I'm not exactly sure, as I've not put a lot of thought into analysing the various ways people can be hated.

But here's a few:

1) In the OT, it says "Do not hate your brother in your heart", meaning, that if you hate someone, be upfront and tell them.

If someone who hates you, tells you that they have feelings of animosity towards you, then if you want to repair the friendship/relationship, you can do something about it. If you don't think the friendship/relationship is salvageable, then you can at least avoid the person, and thus avoid them screwing you over, and thus you can get on with your life.

If someone who hates you, doesn't tell you that they have feelings of animosity towards you, then you'll go about thinking that they are still your friend and you've done nothing to offend them. So you won't fix the problem, and so they'll continue to hate you. In addition, you'll think they still like you, and so you'll continue to do things with them and trust them. So when you really need something to happen, like a business deal that can make you millions, you'll rely on them and trust them to come through for you like a good friend. But they feel animosity to you, and you've done nothing to alleviate that animosity. So as far as they are concerned, you'll probably continue to screw them over, and so they will put themselves first and you last, and will be likely to drop you in the sh*t, just when you have the opportunity of a lifetime.

I heard that one of the things that sometimes happens, is that when people apply for a mortgage or a business loan, the loan advisor in the bank in their town, just so happens to be a kid they bullied in school, and refuses their loan application because he was bullied by them, and they never did anything to fix the problem.

So then the bully never gets to own his own house, and never gets to own his own business, purely because of something he did decades ago when he was a kid, and that he cannot change now.

Then the bully feels that he is justified to hate the loan advisor, because he is now being victimised for something he cannot change.

So then the bully teaches his kids that they cannot trust the loan advisor's kids. So then the bully's kids bully the loan advisor's kids in school. Then they grow up, and do the same things as adults. So then the hatred continues through their lifetime, and from generation to generation.

Often, when it continued long enough, the parties forgot what the original fight was about, but still continued the conflict, because the conflict had continued to hurt both sides all the way into the present and the recent past. So then it turned into its own self-sustaining feedback loop, that potentially could have continued to as long as those families were still living.

This sort of hatred through the generations was so common in Europe, even in small isolated villages, that it was given its own name, "vendetta". That's how common it used to be.

2) The OT also says that if you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.

This means that if you've really p*ssed someone off, you'll still help them when they are stuck. So then the person thinks "Well, he may be a b*stard. But at least he bailed me out when I was in the sh*t". So then the person sees you're not all bad, and is willing to make amends, and thus is open to your apology.

It also means that when you need to work together to fight a common enemy or deal with a plague that affects both of your communities, he knows that you'll still be there for him when he needs help, and so he will be expecting that you won't screw him over completely if you work together, and so when the need is great, he will be much more likely to be willing to work with you.

3) The OT also says to not take vengeance, which is interpreted in Judaism to mean that if someone refuses to lend you their lawn-mower, than you don't refuse to lend them your leaf-blower. So again, the fact that you have hatred between each other doesn't mean that you screw each other over.

4) The OT also says that in all loans, you should take security. So even if your enemy wants to borrow your leaf-blower, you should hold something of his in security in the meantime, and so you don't have to worry that your enemy will steal your leaf-blower and never return it.

5) The OT also says to not hold a grudge, which is interpreted in Judaism to mean that if someone refuses to lend you their lawn-mower, and they want to borrow your leaf-blower, you don't say back "I'll lend it to you, even though you wouldn't lend me your lawn-mover." So the other person doesn't feel like everything is point-scoring with you.

These sorts of things mean that even if you do hate someone, or someone hates you, you do things to ensure that things de-escalate and you get closer to getting on with each other.

They also thus don't stop you from working with each other, even though you don't trust each other.

So then hate moves towards love, and doesn't hold you back from productive teamwork.

I don't know if those are the best examples of productive hatred. But they seem to me to be a significant improvement.
 

PiedPiper

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I would be interested to hear some productive examples of hate as well.

To critique your example, you don’t need hatred to protect your boundaries or to stand up for others as anger already does that. With the distinguishing factor that hatred intrinsically involves wishing suffering upon others where anger can just be self-defence. Anger stands up to the bully, but it takes hatred to plot a school shooting.
Naturally, but then we could pick apart anger the same way as we do hate. And let's not forget, hatred IS accepted in certain situations. Is it unnatural to assume we hate serial killers? So why then is hate acceptable in a limited number of situations and not others. Okay, that sounded way more ignorant than I'd hoped. Relaying that hatred is bad is like drawing a line between good and evil. There is good, there is evil, and nothing else. Do you seriously expect the universe to revolve around Yin and not Yang? Can the world survive in an idealist's paradise devoid of all things painful, or evil? Can we know what good even is if devoid of its counterpart? They are in constant opposition but one in the same. Hate has its place. The opposite of hate is indifference, not love, as love and hate are of the SAME origins, simply spent in a differing way. Much like laughter and tears.

"Hatred intrinsically involves wishing suffering upon others." No, it can involve hatred of a circumstance, hatred of an object, hatred of a situation, hatred for unjustness, hatred of oneself. Now here I caught myself, for "Hatred of injustice" is one example of productive hate. Hatred for oppression, capitalism, war, ignorance, shame, racism. What i'm trying to explain, is that this hate isnt in itself so wrong, it's the intent behind it. And we are brought up to assume it must always be horrible and we should quell it, which breeds it. Hatred is reserved for when you back the snake into the corner and give him no way out. Hatred is a last resort so to speak, when the mind understands something must be changed and isnt, and anger alone isnt cutting it.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Hatred for injustice is a decent answer. I think it strongly depends on where you draw the line between hate and other emotions.

I think hate of injustice is only incidentally constructive. The wisdom of love or whatever you'd like to call it, is that hate can be reframed positively to be more constructive. So instead of hating injustice (which can result in ineffective punitive strategies), you could love justice (resulting in more effective rehabilitative/protective strategies).
 

Puffy

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That sounds more productive. My issue with the examples you’re giving is that they’re all circumstances where anger or even love will provoke action which leads me to the assumption: it isn’t necessary to be filled with hatred about your cause in order to be a great change-maker or activist. If true, why not be motivated about it for compassionate reasons?

I agree that on a whole good and bad, hatred and love, are all apart of existence and maybe even are opposite poles. But illness and health are as well, right? We get sick and learn through that how to be in or at least to appreciate good health. We hate in part in order to learn how to love. We need opposites in order to appreciate the value of the good things in life. I think that’s more how I see it with your yin and yang angle anyway.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Lol this thread is too edgy for me :D

How is love difficult to understand? How are you able to create a false dichotomy out of Love vs Reason?

Also wow, hate being pure and productive, lol. And happiness can't be productive? In the end all emotions serve some role.

If I'm angry and spend the next 30 minutes taking it out on a punching bag then I'll grow some muscle and also reduce the stress by coping physically with some issue and I won't feel bad for taking a break because I had a 30 minute workout.
So there's a stress resolution chain like this: (stressful situation) -> anxiety + anger -> workout -> workout induced endorphins + satisfaction with doing workout + feeling stronger and capable of violence reduces anxiety -> happiness (ready for more stress) -> (stressful situation)

When I'm happy while I'm working, I'll enter a state of powerful focus that can carry my work for much longer than I had originally planned, leading to greater effects and profits. Also I will seek to return to the state of happiness which will motivate my further actions into doing something positive for my well being.

You can find a useful application for every emotion available to us, even stuff like melancholy is intended to drive introspection and problem solving. But it can lead to looping or depression so it can't last very long and has to be managed carefully.

Bad things happen when some emotions linger, or dominate the daily routine OR when the positive emotional states are achieved by unhealthy means. There's a hierarchy of emotions and how long they should last. Definitely melancholy or anger shouldn't last for longer than an hour in a day while stuff like happiness or determination can be present for 12 hours or more and won't imbalance the mind.

Losing emotional balance is noticeable when, in the absence of unexpected stressors, the stress levels are higher by the end of the day compared to where they started at the beginning of your day. A healthy mind should be able to naturally reduce stress over time to be ready for new unexpected stressful situations that are inevitably going to happen and then the elevated stress level gets resolved again. Positive emotions are in general way better in abundance and deal with trauma and stress more easily than negative emotions.
 
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