INFP to INFJ type conversion - How is this possible?

[terraxceles]

This post is going to sound terribly self-indulgent and rambly, but bear with me. I'm just confused as to why my personal experience doesn't fit with the MBTI convention. And you guys seem to know a lot about INFJs, even more so than the people at INFJ forums... so... here's hoping...

Up until an year ago, I think I used to be an INFP. I was very much Fi-dominant + auxiliary Ne. I'd tested as an INFP back then, and the more I read about it now, the surer I am of it. There's no doubt.

Case in point, I used to be very idealistic, to the extent of being completely impractical/irrational at times. I had a clear idea of what I wanted from myself and I followed it through and through, i.e "helping others emotionally, bringing smiles on the faces of the downtrodden and changing the world with kindness" (paraphrasing from an essay I wrote at that time). Everyone I met seemed to extrude either "good" or "bad" vibes and I would judge them based entirely on that feeling.

I was purely an emotional being and I didn't understand any other mode of living, esp. NTs. I had an INTP friend whom -- dare I say, understood me far better than I understood him -- I constantly made fun of for being robotic and mechanical... whereas he would at least make an effort to understand why I was irrational. (We're still good friends, if you were wondering.)

However, something happened. I'm not quite sure what. I changed. I've tried to trace it back and it seems the transformation started sometime in late 2008/early 2009. There came a time when I started questioning everything I'd taken granted for. I suddenly felt like I'd limited myself to a singular worldview for so long that it had become impossible for me to know what was objectively right. I had to change that, take a step back and truly observe the world in depth before I could make any reservations again.

I realized my personal value system was completely biased. I had to redo everything, start from the beginning, discard all preconceived notions about the world. And so I did. I became obsessed with "objectivity". I discarded every single one of my beliefs in favour of a neutral worldview, where I could look at everything without any prejudices and then reconstruct myself. One of the major changes I made at this point was to become agnostic ("how can I trust my religion to be right when there are other religions in the world that believe the same?")

I went through an existential crisis/"why am I alive?" phase. I was done with school, and until college started, I had plenty of time to think and reflect. At this point of my life, I didn't do much other than surf the internet, watch movies and occasionally have an "aha!" moment, at which point I would run to my mother and tell her how this time everything made complete sense (only to discard it all again in a few days in favour of the next life-changing revelation).

Anyway, when college finally did start, I noticed several changes in myself. For one, I was far more interested in being liked than before. I started to dress properly, started making an effort to become more "normal", more likable, more helpful, etc. Long story short, I'd become INFJ without realizing it!

Now, 8 months later, I'm still the same. I can't imagine myself any other way. All the INFJ descriptions I've read seem to match my current self perfectly (whereas INFP doesn't seem like me at all, unlike before). At first I thought it was a P/J axis fluctuation and that it was normal, but I didn't know about cognitive functions then, and when I did read more about it, I deduced my cognitive functions to be Ni-Fe-Ti-Se exactly in that order. Which is funny, because an year and a half earlier I would have fit Fi-Ne-Si-Te verbatim.

I've hardly read anything about this on the internet, which further confuses me.

Thoughts? Opinions? Questions? Any idea what could have triggered it? Please let me know. I'm very curious to know what you guys think.

PS. I've spent the entire day composing this, haha. Tired as hell now.

 

[Ska]

I don't know how to explain your "fitting in" stage in college, but everything else in this post sounds INFJ to me.

I had a clear idea of what I wanted from myself and I followed it through and through, i.e "helping others emotionally, bringing smiles on the faces of the downtrodden and changing the world with kindness"

This is when you're describing yourself as an INFP, but this sounds very Ni-Fe to me.

I think the transformation you speak of later is just you developing your tertiary Ti.

I could very possibly be wrong, but even so, there's nothing I've read that would indicate you could just magically transform yourself from an INFP to an INFJ. Your brain would have to re-wire itself to get energy from different functions. You being an INFJ the whole time seems much more plausible to me.

 

[snafupants]

The ideal time to assess relatively static personality traits in my opinion is mid twenties. Case in point, your example. The idealism of your youth shifted abruptly to pure rationalism, from there came a leveling out period. You mentioned in college being an exemplar of Fe: attempting to be present for yourself and others emotionally, which is laudable. This might be paraphrasing, but Adymus - the MBTI guru in these parts - said something that tends to hold true in most cases. He was talking about how a disproportionate number of INTPs start out with an ample supply of feeling but then over time, and with a more advanced map of how the world operates, this alters to some degree into thinking land. My only reservation is that this might have more to do with cognitive development (physiologically) than societal shaping per se. Getting back on topic, allow some more time for traits to settle down. Alternatively, the consensus around here is that relationships - hate that word - reveal ones true personality quicker than time alone would allow.

This is a recent post I made on some tentative conclusions made a few days ago. "Could my Ni have been masking my more elevated Fe in the form of grasping onto Ti, which would be in the tertiary position as an INFJ? If so, why does the Fe feel threatened? Maybe the Ti is overzealous and maturation occured earlier than it should have. The sensing has always been Se, and in small, irritating measure; alas, this should have been spotted sooner. Just like an affair, it feels like all of the signs were there. My future job is service oriented for fucks sake. Ah, my inferior function has never been feeling, what was going through my head. It's just so easy to get enamored with Ti that all else is blocked out; well, my consolation is the Ti was well developed. People have even said to me INFJ without really being prompted, damn." The basic idea being that my Fe is either really overdeveloped and Ti is okay for an INTP or my type is INFJ, where Fe and Ti are in the auxiliary and tertiary positions respectively.

 

[TruthSeeker]

[Adymus] was talking about how a disproportionate number of INTPs start out with an ample supply of feeling but then over time, and with a more advanced map of how the world operates, this alters to some degree into thinking land...allow some more time for traits to settle down.

I fear this is happening to me (the loss of feeling, I mean). At first I felt I was abnormal and dreamed it was a phase I would grow out of; finding out this could be permanent chills me to the bone. I have been following Adymus' posts with fascination. His insight is incredible (especially all that business about typing on smiles...you know it was quite tickling because I have actually been doing that all my life, even before I knew about MBTI I was aware certain smiles went along with certain personalities...I think we all were, on some level), but almost everything he says makes me feel absolutely dreadful. Now he's saying we become MORE unbalanced as life goes on?:S I thought it was the reverse! Isn't there some way for an INTP to escape from being trapped in a cold prison of uncompromising logic? Or am I misunderstanding what he was saying?

EDIT: Wait, did you mean to type "INFJ's start out with an ample supply of feeling?" Because then I can sleep soundly.

 

[terraxceles]

So after the reading the replies in this thread, I thought about this long and hard...

...and I still think I was an INFP before. Or alternatively, an ENFP (wouldn't be too far off), because I remember having a strong Ne that's gone down in activity in the last year or so. I can't discount that. Either my brain magically rewired itself, or I was an INFJ all along who learned how to imitate an XNFP's cognitive functions, and later changed back. (Come to think of it, didn't Adymus say something about INFJ being good actors?)

I suppose snafupants is right though, I should give myself some time before evaluating myself so starkly.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Disposition + life experience = personality. You simply are still developing psychologically. You don't need a typologist/psychologist to know that people are not the same as when they were kids (unless you're ESTP lol). The earlier part of my life I was a jester, but I just became more serious minded. Also when there's something I really want (say a woman for a partner) I can become very sulky and poetic.

 

[Ska]

You can think what you want, but it's pretty accepted that the functions we use are cemented in place and unchangeable. Maybe there's a difference in your behavior now and then, but the bottom line is that you were still using the same cognitive functions then and now, and that is what determines your type. Your brain is hard-wired (quite literally) a certain way and if you found out a way to change that you might want to contact some scientists or something.

 

[terraxceles]

^ Now you're confusing me. Aren't our cognitive functions what we "prefer" to use rather than what we're "able" to use?

And by that definition...aren't we all able to use a little bit of our unconscious functions from time to time, despite them being unnatural?

Enlighten please.

 

[Ska]

You have a preference for those functions because they stimulate you the most psychologically. The functions that give you energy are not going to change, and thus your preference is not going to change.

There's some good information in this thread if you want to read more.

But the main point here is that INFJs and INFPs use completely different functions.

For an INFJ it is Ni-Fe-Ti-Se and for an INFP it is Fi-Ne-Si-Te.

As you can see, they don't even share any of the same functions (the J vs. P difference).

 

[Razare]

Ok, I probably know what happened. Pretty much, the same thing happened to me at one point. This happens to other INFJ's too. One who signed up here recently, MrPeters, had a similar experience. Your Ti turned on. You were an INFJ before, but you developed your third function, and for an INFJ this opens a whole new world which radically affects your personality.

Up until an year ago, I think I used to be an INFP. I was very much Fi-dominant + auxiliary Ne. I'd tested as an INFP back then, and the more I read about it now, the surer I am of it. There's no doubt.

Your following statements give me doubt as to whether you were an INFP.

Case in point, I used to be very idealistic, to the extent of being completely impractical/irrational at times.

INFJ's when we are idealistic, we will exhibit it to a far greater extent than any INFP. Ni creates our idealism, which is a far stronger breed of idealism. INFP's are a slave to their Fi, their "idealism" is really just trying to satisfy their Fi. So you see, this idealism they possess is very personal, because Fi by definition makes decisions on personal values. INFP's often disregard the values of others, and simply think along the lines "everyone has similar values as I do, or at least they should!" (Disclaimer: stereotyped, immature INFP mentality.)

INFJ idealism is realizing what is right on a global level. Acting in such a manner in accordance with what you believe is right may not benefit you personally, or align in any way with your emotions to make you feel good. You may do what is right in-spite of how your emotions feel on the matter. Our idealism is bigger than us and our lives; we give ourselves completely to it.

Ni fixates on a concept, aided by Fe, a concept of how things "should be". We may strive to see this vision realized, which is usually unsuccessful. Ni's vision has to eventually butt up against the external environment.

I had a clear idea of what I wanted from myself and I followed it through and through, i.e "helping others emotionally, bringing smiles on the faces of the downtrodden and changing the world with kindness" (paraphrasing from an essay I wrote at that time).

That is an INFJ crusade. INFP's are likely just going to be nice no matter how you slice it, they're not going to go on a nice crusade. The difference is subtle, and I'm not saying an INFP couldn't have wrote that essay you wrote...

Let me key in on something... "what I wanted from myself" In other words, a clear definition of how you should act in this world, rather than a value-based judgment of the external environment. Value-judgments of the external environment are what INFP's do. Defining morality is what INFJ's do.

Everyone I met seemed to extrude either "good" or "bad" vibes and I would judge them based entirely on that feeling.

Yes, that's INFJ behavior, not INFP. INFP's will get vibes regarding the emotional state of other people, not their motivations. Their ultimate response to other individuals will be based more on experience (using their Si to cite specifics), rather than an intuition like INFJ's use (which is Ni+Fe).

I was purely an emotional being and I didn't understand any other mode of living, esp. NTs. I had an INTP friend whom -- dare I say, understood me far better than I understood him -- I constantly made fun of for being robotic and mechanical... whereas he would at least make an effort to understand why I was irrational. (We're still good friends, if you were wondering.)

INFJ before developing Ti.

However, something happened. I'm not quite sure what. I changed. I've tried to trace it back and it seems the transformation started sometime in late 2008/early 2009. There came a time when I started questioning everything I'd taken granted for. I suddenly felt like I'd limited myself to a singular worldview for so long that it had become impossible for me to know what was objectively right. I had to change that, take a step back and truly observe the world in depth before I could make any reservations again.

Yes, you did limit yourself because Ni is inherently irrational, it only becomes rational if you build it using a rational function like Ti. Also, observing the world is your extroverted sensing function coming into play. INFJ's when we are mature, we observe (Se), analyze (Ti), and fit this into our Ni model.

I realized my personal value system was completely biased. I had to redo everything, start from the beginning, discard all preconceived notions about the world. And so I did. I became obsessed with "objectivity". I discarded every single one of my beliefs in favour of a neutral worldview, where I could look at everything without any prejudices and then reconstruct myself. One of the major changes I made at this point was to become agnostic ("how can I trust my religion to be right when there are other religions in the world that believe the same?")

Yes, when your Ni worldview changes, you change. You become a different person in the end. Your Ni is the information you use which helps you reach decisions. If your Ni changes, then your future decision making model changes. With Si types, they'll never understand what this is... they build their world piece by piece, one bit of information at a time. If one bit of information is invalid, they simply remove that one piece of information. With a strong Ni worldview, each piece is interconnected with another piece... quite often, you can't simply throw one piece out, you have to throw out everything because everything relates to one another.

I went through an existential crisis/"why am I alive?" phase. I was done with school, and until college started, I had plenty of time to think and reflect. At this point of my life, I didn't do much other than surf the internet, watch movies and occasionally have an "aha!" moment, at which point I would run to my mother and tell her how this time everything made complete sense (only to discard it all again in a few days in favour of the next life-changing revelation).

You were rebuilding your Ni. It takes time. My advice would be to not align it with concepts that can be disproved. Either that or focus Ni on concrete things like INTJ's do, and disregard the existential.

Anyway, when college finally did start, I noticed several changes in myself. For one, I was far more interested in being liked than before. I started to dress properly, started making an effort to become more "normal", more likable, more helpful, etc. Long story short, I'd become INFJ without realizing it!

Developing Se, will allow you to take a look at yourself visually and assess whether you fit in with the crowd using Fe + Se, perhaps. Also, college is a new exciting experience, it's normal to want to be liked when you go, even if you were a total recluse in High School.

Now, 8 months later, I'm still the same. I can't imagine myself any other way. All the INFJ descriptions I've read seem to match my current self perfectly (whereas INFP doesn't seem like me at all, unlike before). At first I thought it was a P/J axis fluctuation and that it was normal, but I didn't know about cognitive functions then, and when I did read more about it, I deduced my cognitive functions to be Ni-Fe-Ti-Se exactly in that order. Which is funny, because an year and a half earlier I would have fit Fi-Ne-Si-Te verbatim.

You didn't really give any information that would support the use of Fi or Ne. Also be aware, as Ne is described, Ni can function very similar to it as far as idea generating goes. Ne is often referred to as, "coming up with that out-of-the-box idea, or random thought." Well, Ni does that too.

Ne = externally taking in all the possibilities, difficulty focusing on one possibility
Ni = deriving a single but surefire possibility and believing it

 

[DesertSmeagle]

Maybe changes in your life have happened where you neededto develop the J more the P and your subconscious made the change.

 

[terraxceles]

@Razare, stop staring into my soul man!

That is just...amazing and creepy at the same time. Thanks so much for the in-depth illustration, this makes a lot of sense now. I guess much of this stemmed from a general misunderstanding of the INFP type, as well as Forer effect to some extent.

Thanks for saving me hours of running around in circles with this, I can finally sleep in peace now.

Ne = externally taking in all the possibilities, difficulty focusing on one possibility
Ni = deriving a single but surefire possibility and believing it

I relate to both of these. However, Ne sounds like something I would try to do, whereas Ni is something I would usually do. I'll specify some of my supposedly Ne-leanings here tomorrow since it's getting pretty late here.

 

[Razare]

Yep, glad I could help. As an INFJ using Ti, you are now part of the Rational's club, the secret fifth "NT" type... but only if you want to be, because we can always hop back over to using Fe.

 

[dreamoftheunknown]

Your brain is hard-wired (quite literally) a certain way and if you found out a way to change that you might want to contact some scientists or something.

Actually, that may not be true. Studies in neuroscience have shown that as one's brain develops through life, it basically does rewire itself. Neurological studies also indicate that one's brain continues to develop even through the mid to late 20's (and that's only where they stopped studying participants in long-baseline studies). So, if your brain hasn't quite matured and continues to develop, it's not inconceivable that you might develop some cognitive functions at the expense of others. I can see that maybe after the brain has reached maturity, your cognitive functions are not apt to change, and your personality type ends up being effectively hard-wired. But if your brain is still undergoing substantial change, then I see no reason why you can't end up changing personality types. I can see the argument that one is not likely to go from being an INTP to being an ESFJ, but maybe smaller scale changes are possible. Or maybe not. It's not clear from the information we have as yet - further study is necessary. Point is, don't say it's impossible when the science is still very uncertain. In any case, I have yet to see definitive evidence linking MBTI or Jungian philosophy to neuroscience. At least, I haven't seen anyone say, "This is what an INTP's brain looks like."

 

[Ska]

http://www.greatlakesapt.org/uploads/media/beebe1.PDF
http://personalitycafe.com/myers-briggs-forum/9648-types-brain-pseudo-science-behind-mbti.html?

I think that provides some solid evidence for what an INTP brain looks like -- or at least how it functions.

 

[Razare]

"This is what an INTP's brain looks like."

Actually, VH on the INFJ forum has showed us what an INFJ and an INTJ brain looks like. I have no clue what backing his information has, but it was an interesting read.

http://forums.infjs.com/showthread.php?t=11308

 

[terraxceles]

Yep, glad I could help. As an INFJ using Ti, you are now part of the Rational's club, the secret fifth "NT" type... but only if you want to be, because we can always hop back over to using Fe.

Hehe I always wanted to be an NT. How cool.

You didn't really give any information that would support the use of Fi or Ne. Also be aware, as Ne is described, Ni can function very similar to it as far as idea generating goes. Ne is often referred to as, "coming up with that out-of-the-box idea, or random thought." Well, Ni does that too.

Ne = externally taking in all the possibilities, difficulty focusing on one possibility
Ni = deriving a single but surefire possibility and believing it

I thought about this in detail, and I realized much of what I was interpreting as Ne was probably Ni. I've never had difficulty focusing on one possibility. I ransack my brain for different possibilities, but in the end, usually ascribe to one.

I kept equating Ne to being good at improvisation, finding patterns, and considering different possibilities earlier, but Ni does the same in essence - except it relies on Se to provide external stimulus, which I can relate to. I can't imagine what stimulus through Ne looks like, as I've never been able to physically see "the big picture". Just short, random bits of information (e.g. noticing the brand name of on a friend's T-shirt) that get sifted through the Ni (realization: friend is probably rich) and add to the "big picture" (model updated: said friend, among many things, is also rich) yeah.

Or is this more Si I'm describing? Because it's Si that's able to see differences in people instantly, i.e. a new haircut, different style of clothing, different tone of voice, etc. which I tend to do a lot.

I wonder if I'm complicating things more than I have to?