INFJ posing as an INTJ

[nexion]

In the past few weeks I have begun to see mentions of this notion of 'dominant-tertiary' loops. I really had no idea what the term meant until I came across this post.

Here are some facts:

• I identified as INTP for years before switching over to INTJ
• I have considerd Ni and Ti to be my "strongest" functions for a long time
• I have actually wondered if I am schizoid or not because of my extreme introversion, rich inner worlds and images, complete lack of care for society, etc.
• I relate to the Ni-Ti loop a lot
• I don't relate to the Ni-Fi loop at all

My latest scores from the cognitive functions quiz:

Ti 44.2
Ni 42.1
Te 38.1
Se 27
Ne 26.9
Fi 25.7
Si 23.7
Fe 12.7

I honestly don't even know what to make of those results, but the analysis seems to think these scores indicate INTJ > ENTJ > ISTP. I find it interesting how different these are from my scores a couple of years ago, where my most-likely type was INTP and INTJ wasn't in the list of possible types. Figure that out.

As far as I can tell, I am basically either a perfectly healthy INTJ or one of the worst INFJ's ever (check out that Fe, which I think has only gotten lower over the years).

I'm not much for vanity threads, but requesting opinions, insights, and / or arguments.

 

[Oddity]

I would stop valuing the results of any tests or quizzes at all.

 

[Absurdity]

I'm in a similar situation so I don't really have any insights, just shared misery perhaps.

I first identified as INTP before realizing INTJ is a better fit. However, recently I've realized that I could just be an INFP in a mad Te grip. My interests aren't really congruent with what an INTJ's *should* be (as dubious an indicator as that can be), and I think it is possible that Fi + Ne could mimic the description of Ni (stumbling across a pattern or connection that strongly resonates with your value base could feel like a prophetic or revelatory insight).

In terms of Si/Se I've always identified more with the former. I do have a tendency toward alcohol abuse which made me think (or rationalize) that that was just inferior Se, but when it comes to material possessions, food, etc. I couldn't give less of a shit. The one exception is when it comes to spatial aesthetics -- I literally feel like I can't think in ugly places. Auburn saw a video of mine and said I exuded a lot of Si, typed me ISTJ.

The dom-tert loop theory is interesting because now it poses a counterargument that I could be an INTJ after all in an Ni - Fi loop. The conspiracy theory thing fits pretty well if I'm honest with myself (OR MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT ME TO THINK). Cog function test suggests INFP -> ENFP (lol) -> INTJ.

So yeah, cheers.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Hello. Long time no type!

I have taken a particular interest in your thread simply because I too have had the exact same problem with typing myself. Unfortunately, all I can do is give you a recall of what I have learned in that period of distress.

Initally, the conglomerate of quizzes I took labeled me as INTJ. I was skeptical so I did my research on the basic MBTI descriptions. And then concluded that INTP was more likely. Eventually, I read somewhere that it would be a good idea to test your perceived INTP preference by going to an INTP forum and seeing how you fit in. When I came here, I saw how everyone championed the INTP label and thought "Yeah, INTJ? Pfft...who'd want to be one of those losers?" and ended up conforming to the forum's slant. After being here a while (on and off), posting in threads, and asking questions, I noticed that there exist a way of interpreting information that was not native to me. I couldn't define, specify, or exactly say what it was, but something about the style of the most popular conversations here is very different from how I would normally communicate. Posts from me became rare because I began seeking to talk to people on an individual basis to knock the innate bias here on the forum. I wanted to delve deeper. However, I was looking in the wrong locations.

Extroverted Intuition was what I saw in the "popular threads" here. I could never be as playful or joke in the manner that people here sometimes do (Ex. Jennywocky). Anytime I tried I would miserably fale. I took everything too seriously and it felt like a lot of people here were just joking around.

All this led me to doubt that I had Extroverted Intuition. Introverted Thinking wasn't pronounced enough to consider myself a Ti-user or dom, so I started to doubt it as well. Accepting Se/Ni as my perception functions, I went on to theorize, yet again, that I could be INTJ, ISTP, or INFJ - in that order of probability. Sometimes Ti would be used and sometimes not. AND THEN it became clear. I saw and understood the physical and psychological differences between Te/Fi and Fe/Ti on CognitiveType.com.

ISTP and INFJ were the only ones left so I sent Auburn a video for an objective perspective. His interpretation of what he saw validated my suspicions. And then everything was solved.

INFJ and INTJ normally differ vastly in the when it comes to communication styles, values, and focus, but at first glance (literal and figurative) they may seem inseparably similar.

TEST ARE NOT USELESS! They can give you a ballpark for further introspection and a better understanding of the stereotypical actions that the archetypes may make.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Why all these tests and all this theorizing Delusive Ninja and Nil? Why no functional analysis? Why have Auburn type you?

Is anyone ever going to bother explaining why Auburn is taken seriously at all? I guess not, the guy is a phony and he can't type for shit.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Why all these tests and all this theorizing Delusive Ninja and Nil? Why no functional analysis?

Theorizing is unavoidable for me. Especially, when I want to know something that I don't know how to approach scientifically. Functional Analysis, what do you mean? Analyzing psychological processes to understand them or am I not understanding the term?

Why have Auburn type you? Is anyone ever going to bother explaining why Auburn is taken seriously at all? I guess not, the guy is a phony and he can't type for shit.

Why not ask someone else what our type is? We take crappy online test, make "type me threads" and then receive results that may be or may not accurate.

It was entirely my choice to have Auburn type me. I (personally) thought that his content was consistent and observable. My bias/opinion is that there is some truth to his methods or at least some correlation in between the cognitive processes and facial expressions and bodily gestures.

 

[nexion]

Absurdity and DelusiveNinja: Good to see I am not the only one. Back when I took my first test and got INTP, it seemed spot on. The phenomenon that more knowledge can lead less to certainty is a peculiar one.

I also got the impression that Ne is what we are seeing in the playful side of members here. It is extremely obvious with the recent influx of ENTPs vomiting insanity all over the place. It never made any sense to me, and even years ago some members noted that my posts did not follow the same dynamics as most of the self-professed INTPs here.

I think I'll check out cognitivetype.com.

Absurdity: the idea that the interplay of two functions can look like another is interesting. I think that with enough knowledge and discernment, it should become clear though.

I would stop valuing the results of any tests or quizzes at all.

Why all these tests and all this theorizing Delusive Ninja and Nil? Why no functional analysis?

As DN said, the tests are not useless. I utilise them as one of many data points. Ideally all of these data points give rise to a single reality, but the problem comes when one encounters data that clearly (seemingly) contradicts the set of previous data. At that point, it becomes necessary to either reject the outlier data, or alter the system to include it without sacrificing its consistency. That is the purpose for this thread; it is not merely theorizing, but trying to incorporate new data into an existing framework.

The cognitive function test that is most widely used is much, much better than the run-of-the-mill MBTI tests. It at least attempts to put together the four-letter model based on the core of Jungian typology, rather than asking the test-taker if he likes talking to people or if he cries a lot.

Is anyone ever going to bother explaining why Auburn is taken seriously at all? I guess not, the guy is a phony and he can't type for shit.

And I assume you can type for shit? Show us your ways.

Can you also give some general process of how to go about conducting unbiased functional analyses?

 

[StevenM]

It's hard to tell what we look like, unless someone video taped us.

But I guess a good guideline is that Ni-doms, a lot of the time, have somewhat of a gazed out stare. The INTJ looks more bored or uninterested, and subtly giving off a "bad-ass" vibe. INFJ's look like they are daydreaming or something.

INTP's have somewhat of a child-like naive look to them. It's an exaggeration, but kinda like the only kid wearing short-shorts look (kinda, *don't beat me up *).

Those are just guidelines though.

See if you can identify with the Ti/Fe, or the Te/Fi.

Basically, a Ti-dom represses what is told to them as reasonable, valid, correct or practical. A Ti-dom would rather have a complete personal understanding of something before they come to such conclusions.

A Te/Fi may tend to represses their own personal subjective reasoning in place of what is realistic and objective. Which may be confusing for an INTP, because to them, they don't like their logic being called 'subjective'. Keep in mind that subjective logic is reasoned from the self, and objective logic is reasoned from outside of the self. Neither is more valid than the other, a true valid judgement should both satisfy personal understanding, and hold up to evidence from reality.

Anyways, Ti tends to more reason from within, and Te's tend to reason from without. <-Yes, I have been reading Jung's stuff, it's pretty cool and mind-blowing.

Ti's have tendencies to conceptualize theories I guess, and Te's frequently try to bring understanding of what actuality is.

 

[masamune]

Wow...now I'm really confused...
I mean, I just read this (INTP profile page) 2 days ago, then read the INFP profile page today: BOTH do correspond to me.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Actually the tests are shit, if you know MBTI you should be able to tell which question measures what specifically rendering taking the test completely unnecessary. And you need to know MBTI if you want to be sure of your own type so that's not an if at all.

Functional analysis is how you type. Visual analysis is interesting but doesn't offer any measure of certainty at all. Auburn doesn't even check to see whether the results he gets from his visual typings are correct or not. Why you shouldn't rely on Auburn should be obvious to anyone who isn't a demented monkey on crack.

 

[Grayman]

I'm in a similar situation so I don't really have any insights, just shared misery perhaps.

I first identified as INTP before realizing INTJ is a better fit. However, recently I've realized that I could just be an INFP in a mad Te grip. My interests aren't really congruent with what an INTJ's *should* be (as dubious an indicator as that can be), and I think it is possible that Fi + Ne could mimic the description of Ni (stumbling across a pattern or connection that strongly resonates with your value base could feel like a prophetic or revelatory insight).

In terms of Si/Se I've always identified more with the former. I do have a tendency toward alcohol abuse which made me think (or rationalize) that that was just inferior Se, but when it comes to material possessions, food, etc. I couldn't give less of a shit. The one exception is when it comes to spatial aesthetics -- I literally feel like I can't think in ugly places. Auburn saw a video of mine and said I exuded a lot of Si, typed me ISTJ.

The dom-tert loop theory is interesting because now it poses a counterargument that I could be an INTJ after all in an Ni - Fi loop. The conspiracy theory thing fits pretty well if I'm honest with myself (OR MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT ME TO THINK). Cog function test suggests INFP -> ENFP (lol) -> INTJ.

So yeah, cheers.

I don't think iNFP. Ne can resort to 'wild connections' which I have never seen you make or even entertain.

Wild connections not being ones that result in simple generalizations but more like the thread that explores the idea of gay being an evolutionary development to handle an over populated world.

The first, generalizations ,may be more of an Se development, and the other is more conceptual and complex.

 

[Absurdity]

I don't think iNFP. Ne can resort to 'wild connections' which I have never seen you make or even entertain.

Yeah, I agree with this.

 

[StevenM]

A good start is also figuring out how you value percieving

Si/Ne or
Se/Ni

And how you value deciding and judging

Te/Fi or
Fe/Ti

I think Si/Ne people are not so much in tune with the present moment. They are either living in the past, or always looking ahead to what could be. The present moment is almost meaningless to them. Instead of living in the now, they are always seeing things subjective to their memory, and/or intuiting ideas of different possibilities that they strive to make true.

Se/Ni's like living and acting in the moment. They shove the past aside, and they don't care about the possibilities of the future. They want to experience the now, they want to feel connected to the event at the moment, they want to live life as it is. They strive for meaning of what is tangible before them.

When it comes to decision making, and judging, Te/Fi's are more in-tune to structure and rules governing reality, and the ethics and morals subjective to the feelings of individuals. In my personal view, they are the law and justice makers. Fi's have a individualized judgement for individuals according to their ethics and feelings, and Te's have a need to implement logic and promote structure in reality. For some personalities, this means laws and rules, (especially the sensors), for intuitives, it may lean more towards something else.

Fe/Ti's are much more lax in governing structures and judgements, they are a little like the rebels and anarchists when it comes to rules and law promoted commonly by everyone. They want everyone to just have fun, chill out, everyone be happy and content, don't judge people personally. The Ti's may have a very opposing view of the imposing structures and common logic of others, and much prefer to have an individualized way of rationalizing things. Objective structure and rules are too rigid, and should meant to be broken and adjusted to individual circumstances.


These are exaggerated examples, but I think it may be a valid starting point.

 

[Absurdity]

^ Actually Fe tends to focus more on enforcing social norms and Fi tends toward rebelliousness. Same thing that is seen in Te vs. Ti.

 

[Black Rose]

^ Actually Fe tends to focus more on enforcing social norms and Fi tends toward rebelliousness. Same thing that is seen in Te vs. Ti.

enforcing

Fe Te

rebeling

Fi Ti

they do so in different ways?

 

[Reluctantly]

The loop theory is an interesting idea, but it doesn't necessarily apply all the time. For example, an NT has a grasp of and uses Ne, Ni, Te, and Ti. Of course someone who is Ti+Ne is going to use Te and Ni differently than someone who is Ni+Te, but to think that because someone uses a lot of Ni with Ti that they must be INFJ is not always true. They could just as well be Ni+Te with a poor integration of their Fi into their psyche. In fact, it was Jung that suggested the tertiary is a focus of growth, rather than the neurosis the loop theory suggests instead. Rather than being neurotic, it's supposed to help guide the auxiliary.

Plus the auxiliary isn't always well integrated, depending on the individual. An ESFP, for example, might have an over-focus on extroversion, to the point that the Fi/Te axis isn't very apparent. So you'd get an extroverted hyper-focus on Se, along with Fe because feeling is a strong part of their psyche. So someone who is an NT and is Ni dominant that is extremely introverted is also going to have a high amount of Ti because they are a thinking type.

But a less analytical and more practical approach is to ask yourself, which do you struggle with, feeling or thinking? Does using feeling as a guide create problems for you or does using thinking? Feeling is a function of what is agreeable to oneself after-all; and thinkers do struggle to assert this aspect of themselves without it causing further issues.

^ Actually Fe tends to focus more on enforcing social norms and Fi tends toward rebelliousness. Same thing that is seen in Te vs. Ti.

I agree.

 

[StevenM]

^ Actually Fe tends to focus more on enforcing social norms and Fi tends toward rebelliousness. Same thing that is seen in Te vs. Ti.

I see what you are saying, and agree. I'm having a hard time putting the concept into words.

I tend to see a certain representation from those who value Fi/Te, or Te/Fi, even if they are polar opposites. The only way I can describe it, is that they are true 'judges' in the sense that:

Fi is used mostly as moral judge of inner character.
Te rationalizes and enacts a structure, that governs the objective world.

Of course, they are true opposites as cognitive functions go, and one of them is stronger, and the other much weaker. But they do tend to each other hand in hand. The big picture I get with both of them working together, a symbolic interpretation, is that of a judge in a court of law. Fi being with more discretion, Te more closely defined to the general structure of law.

I'm not saying people with Fi/Te are all judges and police officers, or their thoughts are always filled with ideas of the justice system. But there is something in their character that resembles something outwardly corrective, direct, speculative. A sense of duty (kind of), of good and bad, right and wrong.

As for those who utilize Fe/Ti, or Ti/Fe, I find are less concerned with morals or judgements. True, to an Fi, Fe does seem to enforce something of a general consensus. And yes, Ti is a judging function. But Ti has somewhat moved away from good and bad, right and wrong, and has more of an individualized rationality that pretty well stays inward. Fe is not so much 'enforcing', but in a better term, 'influential' (Maybe not to a Te/Fi).

I don't know, I'm trying to describe this concept that I'm seeing, but the words fail me. I feel like an Ni, trying to explain his 'vision'.

Take account of all the people that are 'for sure' with the Ti-Fe (don't take note of which is dom/inferior), and take a general look at the differences that they have with the Te-Fi's. There is something there differing of their outlook and behaviour.

 

[Oddity]

enforcing: Fe Te
rebeling: Fi Ti

they do so in different ways?

Take account of all the people that are 'for sure' with the Ti-Fe (don't take note of which is dom/inferior), and take a general look at the differences that they have with the Te-Fi's. There is something there differing of their outlook and behaviour.

Hell yes.

 

[nexion]

Se/Ni's like living and acting in the moment. They shove the past aside, and they don't care about the possibilities of the future. They want to experience the now, they want to feel connected to the event at the moment, they want to live life as it is. They strive for meaning of what is tangible before them.

I am absolutely sure I am dominant Ni. This description is probably true for a strong Se type, but it is absolutely false for myself, except sometimes. I get how this is supposed to work in contrast to Si / Ne , but there are likely better differences between these two function pairs.

The loop theory is an interesting idea, but it doesn't necessarily apply all the time. For example, an NT has a grasp of and uses Ne, Ni, Te, and Ti. Of course someone who is Ti+Ne is going to use Te and Ni differently than someone who is Ni+Te, but to think that because someone uses a lot of Ni with Ti that they must be INFJ is not always true. They could just as well be Ni+Te with a poor integration of their Fi into their psyche. In fact, it was Jung that suggested the tertiary is a focus of growth, rather than the neurosis the loop theory suggests instead. Rather than being neurotic, it's supposed to help guide the auxiliary.

Plus the auxiliary isn't always well integrated, depending on the individual. An ESFP, for example, might have an over-focus on extroversion, to the point that the Fi/Te axis isn't very apparent. So you'd get an extroverted hyper-focus on Se, along with Fe because feeling is a strong part of their psyche. So someone who is an NT and is Ni dominant that is extremely introverted is also going to have a high amount of Ti because they are a thinking type.

The point isn't that the tertiary is necessarily a source of neurosis, it's that it can be if for some reason an individual uses it to the point of suppressing the secondary. In this sense neurosis is a result of improper functional balance in the psyche. Pairs of dominant / inferior and secondary / tertiary functions are intended to flow freely in a more self-actualized individual, as far as I know.

What you say also makes sense, but in that case, it is necessary to design some kind of metric which either consider or circumvents this possibility. Or: how to tell if one is a neurotic INFJ vs. a highly introverted INTJ? The more layers of complexity you add, the more the boundaries between the types themselves become less clear, which in my opinion may as well defeat the whole purpose of typology in the first place.

-----

Most days I feel like an INTJ, so that's what I am going with unless I find better reason to believe I am something else. Nevertheless, keep the responses coming, I really like what's going on in this thread.

 

[Reluctantly]

I'm not saying people with Fi/Te are all judges and police officers, or their thoughts are always filled with ideas of the justice system. But there is something in their character that resembles something outwardly corrective, direct, speculative. A sense of duty (kind of), of good and bad, right and wrong.

As for those who utilize Fe/Ti, or Ti/Fe, I find are less concerned with morals or judgements. True, to an Fi, Fe does seem to enforce something of a general consensus. And yes, Ti is a judging function. But Ti has somewhat moved away from good and bad, right and wrong, and has more of an individualized rationality that pretty well stays inward. Fe is not so much 'enforcing', but in a better term, 'influential' (Maybe not to a Te/Fi).

Well, from my experience those that are Fe, ESFJ or ENFJ, use rules for social control. For example, I had to go to an event a couple weeks ago and received a ride from the person coordinating the event (an ESFJ). She was mad that 2 people out of about 20 had bailed on her the day of the event. One had a good reason and the other wanted to bail. But regardless she didn't care and was annoyed because we all showed up and they could have gone had they planned well enough; an Fi/Te type would probably expect and understand this and do something about it as it happens or not care because it happens, which I thought was interesting. But she decided that next time when people signed up for the event that they would have to sign something that would punish them and those in charge of them for missing the event. I felt uneasy about it because she wanted some form of social control so that things would happen as planned and I could care less, if I were in her shoes. I suppose that's different than a Te type using force to make things happen the way they want, but it's still a form of social control, even if indirect, one that Ti is a factor in.

Maybe that relates to what you said; I'm not sure.

 

[Absurdity]

Te - Authoritarian
Fe - Totalitarian