[In AI] Only Symbols Are Being Manipulated And That's It.

[ZenRaiden]

What I mean by higher order thinking in this case, is conscious deliberate thinking done slowly with deliberate goal.

No child needs to be told the dog is not a cat. Even if they cannot distinguish them by words say, a retarded child calls both cat, they still can tell they are not the same.
That is visual recognition.

What I am trying to say is we are trying to approach AI as if we can solve all of the fine stuff. Visual cortex is something that shows us that its possible to be intelligent with just associative and comparative.

We associate few figures assume frequency of its appearance and color and shape and there is object born in our mind with verbal category.

Seemingly nothing spectacular happened. Yet is exactly what most of our mind does most of the time.

 

[Black Rose]

What I am trying to say is we are trying to approach AI as if we can solve all of the fine stuff. Visual cortex is something that shows us that its possible to be intelligent with just associative and comparative.

associations change

there needs to be an algorithm for how they change and to act in the world

 

[ZenRaiden]

associations change

Everything changes in the brain, that is precisely its meaning.

 

[Black Rose]

associations change

Everything changes in the brain, that is precisely its meaning.

self-regulated

The algorithm of change

 

[Old Things]

associations change

Everything changes in the brain, that is precisely its meaning.

self-regulated

The algorithm of change

I'm of the persuasion that no matter how sophisticated an AI becomes, it will always do what it is programmed to do. There may be many layers of sophistication, but at bottom, AI is limited to the physical.

 

[Black Rose]

associations change

Everything changes in the brain, that is precisely its meaning.

self-regulated

The algorithm of change

I'm of the persuasion that no matter how sophisticated an AI becomes, it will always do what it is programmed to do. There may be many layers of sophistication, but at bottom, AI is limited to the physical.

Limited to the physical? as are we.

DNA is our program. Yet we have free will.

Sure if the program sucks you get retardation but we can make a.i. that is not retarded also. (seed a.i.) embryo.

 

[Old Things]

associations change

Everything changes in the brain, that is precisely its meaning.

self-regulated

The algorithm of change

I'm of the persuasion that no matter how sophisticated an AI becomes, it will always do what it is programmed to do. There may be many layers of sophistication, but at bottom, AI is limited to the physical.

Limited to the physical? as are we.

DNA is our program. Yet we have free will.

Sure if the program sucks you get retardation but we can make a.i. that is not retarded also. (seed a.i.) embryo.

How do we have Free Will without being limited by the physical?

In other words, I am going to need you to define what you mean by Free Will. There are tons of definitions for this. In most cases what people mean by Free Will is a libertarian view of Free Will (LFW) which entails the principle of alternative possibilities (PAP). LFW doesn't always entail PAP but it does most of the time.

 

[Black Rose]

How do we have Free Will without being limited by the physical?

In other words, I am going to need you to define what you mean by Free Will. There are tons of definitions for this. In most cases what people mean by Free Will is a libertarian view of Free Will (LFW) which entails the principle of alternative possibilities (PAP). LFW doesn't always entail PAP but it does most of the time.

Understanding the consequences of our actions.

When I make a choice it must be aligned with my values. We have a hierarchy of values. Cognitive dissonance is when we have conflicting values. If a.i. values something it will weigh its option and decide. That is what all rational agents do.

 

[Old Things]

How do we have Free Will without being limited by the physical?

In other words, I am going to need you to define what you mean by Free Will. There are tons of definitions for this. In most cases what people mean by Free Will is a libertarian view of Free Will (LFW) which entails the principle of alternative possibilities (PAP). LFW doesn't always entail PAP but it does most of the time.

Understanding the consequences of our actions.

When I make a choice it must be aligned with my values. We have a hierarchy of values. Cognitive dissonance is when we have conflicting values. If a.i. values something it will weigh its option and decide. That is what all rational agents do.

Alright, by your definition I would say AI has more Free Will than humans do because they have a better idea of hierarchies and consequences. If they execute a function, they know the result will be executing an action. People don't always have that awareness.

 

[ZenRaiden]

How do we have Free Will without being limited by the physical?

In other words, I am going to need you to define what you mean by Free Will. There are tons of definitions for this. In most cases what people mean by Free Will is a libertarian view of Free Will (LFW) which entails the principle of alternative possibilities (PAP). LFW doesn't always entail PAP but it does most of the time.

Free will means most of will.
But will also entails that which entails the entity.
An alien with crystaline body and quantum brain should have free decision making process too?

Ghost too.

I am human. So I agree physical stuff counts.

 

[Old Things]

I am human. So I agree physical stuff counts.

I agree that physical stuffs count too. However, it is plausible that since physics itself is indeterministic (whether a quark spins up or down etc.) that the mind works the same way, which, IMO is situated in the brain. The question for people who believe the mind is purely immaterial has to explain what the purpose of the brain even is. So clearly, there is a physical aspect to the mind. But I personally think that is not the full story to say, "Yup the mind is completely physical. Just accept it and move on."

 

[ZenRaiden]

I agree that physical stuffs count too. However, it is plausible that since physics itself is indeterministic (whether a quark spins up or down etc.) that the mind works the same way, which, IMO is situated in the brain. The question for people who believe the mind is purely immaterial has to explain what the purpose of the brain even is. So clearly, there is a physical aspect to the mind. But I personally think that is not the full story to say, "Yup the mind is completely physical. Just accept it and move on."

Yeah if quantum things change non quantum things like neuron connections then that is a good case.

Question is - does it? If not then the brain is just wet machine with lots of dots interconnected.

If quantum stuff can change things then we might not know.

 

[Old Things]

I agree that physical stuffs count too. However, it is plausible that since physics itself is indeterministic (whether a quark spins up or down etc.) that the mind works the same way, which, IMO is situated in the brain. The question for people who believe the mind is purely immaterial has to explain what the purpose of the brain even is. So clearly, there is a physical aspect to the mind. But I personally think that is not the full story to say, "Yup the mind is completely physical. Just accept it and move on."

Yeah if quantum things change non quantum things like neuron connections then that is a good case.

Question is - does it? If not then the brain is just wet machine with lots of dots interconnected.

If quantum stuff can change things then we might not know.

I think there is evidence that the brain works indeterministically. See this video for more:

 

[ZenRaiden]

I try to limit my video watching and stuff, so I am not watching it.
Plus I have hard time seeing difference between quantum quack speak and actual science.

 

[Black Rose]

Self-regulation maintains homeostasis through feedback(cybernetics). Feedback is why cells and the body can regulate and not fall apart. It is the entire system working together so it does not fall apart. Intelligence is a regulation process. When we are hungry a mechanism scams the stomach and alerts the brain. This causes a search for food. A full bladder causes the brain to stop and pee. Intelligence is a mechanism of survival. Intelligence is a better way to regulate because the more intelligent you are the more you can take advantage of your environment and not die. Focus is the result of regulation. Regulation is feedback internally that makes the brain work better.

The brain has a hierarchy of regulation mechanisms. This has been known since the 60s. Focus is a mechanism in the hierarchy. Reinforcement is why more intelligent organisms survive longer and produce more offspring. And increases the number of years the parents can train/raise offspring. The brain partisans what mechanisms do what. Compartimalization is why we can store memories in the same brain areas.

Look into hierarchical cybernetics. (Frontal lobe self-regulation)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Dude, it's already happened. Look at the art industry and how AI is dominating it. Those poor people will be out of jobs in 5 years, faster than truck drivers.

In the simplest terms: AI doesn't have to be sentient to do ANY of the things that we hold sacred or sentient.

This world is reducible to matrix multiplication and vector algebra all the way down.

And yes, I'm a set of numbers that transform over time talking about other numbers. My avatar is a noisy sea of numbers, that's me.

What are the odds that you or your god aren't like me? Just a bunch of numbers that define everything about how you work.