If

[eudemonia]

Just wondering on a lazy Sunday afternoon about the power of conversation to bring about change. I was also wondering about the idea of finding your 'voice' - i.e. the unique expression of your deepest values, desires and principles as manifested both in what you naturally pay attention to and in what actions you commit to (or would like to commit to). How does one find that voice amongst all the deceptive, enculturated voices that steal our attention and lead us in so many different directions?

So here's a question to start off with:

If you could have an ongoing conversation with a specific group of people about a topic of your choice and in doing so, knew that your conversation would bring about beneficial change in that area, who would you choose to talk to and what would you talk about? What change would you hope your conversation might support?

Imagine that this conversation would require of you some commitment. This is not about wishing for 'world peace' (a la Miss Congeniality) but rather finding your place in the world, a place where you would feel comfortable and committed to exercising some form of leadership.

 

[Auburn]

I love this question! This is something that I've always wished for...

The group of people would be: The rare (and seemingly extincted) humble, wise, and open-minded philosophers/psychologist of this world. They are the people who understand humanity's needs as well as the reasons for why they do everything they do - and why it is that we have all the issues/conflicts we do.

The topic/purpose: To discover a way in which to do the seemingly impossible; to completely redirect the way society functions as a whole from "government" ideology, to and idea similar to the one proposed by Aristotle - in which the philosophers are placed at the pinnacle of society to guide it (not to forcefully subdue it).

I imagine it would be a fascinating conversation - pointing out all the flaws of the educational/economical/judicial systems of our world - and where it fails to meet humanity - and what would meet humanity.

Side-Note: I really dislike the government. (or tradition, for that matter)​

 

[Kidege]

I'd talk about classic literature to children/teens. I'd tell the tales.

I did this briefly once, and even if the kids were hopelessly Disney-fied I think something may have stuck.

I consider classic tales a good starting point for later reflection upon values. Plus they stimulate the imagination, help with verbal skills, etc.

 

[Decaf]

I'd talk to the department of education and get type theory friendly elementary education standards put into schools.

 

[eudemonia]

I'm interested in the extent to which you would be committed to taking action in these areas in real life i.e. to what extent are these dreams or real visions which would motivate you to take action.

I love your passion Auburn, which comes clearly through your post. I love the phrase 'seemingly impossible'. Peter Senge talks about this as creative tension - the leader has a vision and also has a clear sense of the reality. The gap between reality and vision creates a tension which the leader has to manage. S/he can deny reality; give up on the vision or commit to the journey of achieving the vision with all the hardships that involves. If you find your voice, you are like Martin Luther before the Diet of Worms: 'here I stand, I can do no other'; you are hooked. You become the instrument of your voice, of your leadership.

I also love the fact you have actually enacted your ideas Kidege. This is a big step and says a lot about you and the authenticity of your vision. I wondered what it felt like to be doing something you believed in so much.

Decaf, I don't know anyone who knows more about MBTI than you do. You clearly believe in its power so much. Would the idea of promoting it in schools or amongst young people (in whatever way) be something you would ever commit to doing?

Ignore me if you think I'm being too nosy It's just that I am interested in ways of discovering our authentic voices and releasing our potential for leadership.

 

[Auburn]

I'm interested in the extent to which you would be committed to taking action in these areas in real life i.e. to what extent are these dreams or real visions which would motivate you to take action.

If such a meeting of minds took place as the one I described; dedicated to changing the face of the world by providing a "wisdom" based guide to society rather than a "political power" based system -- I would dedicate the rest of my life to see such a revolution take place!

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I would endeavour to make people believe in the sheer unbridled potential of technology and realise just how limited current technology is. To dispel that attitude of "that's impossible" and get people thinking openly about making the impossible possible. To stop people thinking that our current technology is the height of humanities current potential.

If only to make people look into the sky at night and realise exactly what they're looking at. I cannot understand how people can be so pre-occupied earthly matters when every night we can see into the universe with our naked eyes. Just turn off the TV and look up.

 

[Decaf]

Decaf, I don't know anyone who knows more about MBTI than you do. You clearly believe in its power so much. Would the idea of promoting it in schools or amongst young people (in whatever way) be something you would ever commit to doing?

Well that's the general idea. I haven't gotten anywhere near being able to do that yet, but that's what motivated me to drop chemistry and engineering to pursue a PhD in psychology.

Which reminds me... anyone interested in writing me a letter of recommendation? I'm trying to get into Berkeley and could use some help.

 

[Kidege]

Do they take letters from lowly grad students from foreign countries?

 

[severus]

I'd talk about classic literature to children/teens. I'd tell the tales.

I did this briefly once, and even if the kids were hopelessly Disney-fied I think something may have stuck.

I consider classic tales a good starting point for later reflection upon values. Plus they stimulate the imagination, help with verbal skills, etc.

I am a teen who would like to be talked to about classic literature.

 

[Decaf]

Do they take letters from lowly grad students from foreign countries?

I wish! I can barely make suggestions to my own professors. Then again... the guy in charge of my current program is a bit of a douche bag.

 

[Agent Intellect]

tell them i recomended you. i'm kind of a big deal, so it should be enough.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Just wondering on a lazy Sunday afternoon about the power of conversation to bring about change.

I am reminded of this quote by Albert Camus:
All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning. Great works are often born on a street corner or in a restaurant's revolving door.

If you could have an ongoing conversation with a specific group of people about a topic of your choice and in doing so, knew that your conversation would bring about beneficial change in that area, who would you choose to talk to and what would you talk about?

Though I would like to talk to all groups about this, children in grade school learning English (and I only choose this language because it is my native tongue) would be my first choice and the importance of good language skills such as grammtical structure and word definition/etymology would be the subject matter.

In short, Rhetoric; in its primary meanings of:
- the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or verse, including the figures of speech
- the study of the effective use of language
- the ability to use language effectively

We think and communicate primarily through spoken and written language. To structure one's thoughts in communally accepted forms which others clearly comprehend promotes mutual understanding and exchange of concepts.
Also, speaking about the etymologies of words engenders a deeper understanding of the meaning of each word, the morphology of words over time, and the mutation of words and their definitions as they are adopted by various groups within a culture's primary language.

What change would you hope your conversation might support?

Mutual understanding and free exchange of ideas with a major reduction in discussion over semantics. I am not saying that a language should not change, but that change should be evolutionary and increase the ability of a language to carry information and ideas as precisely as possible.
Language is Humanity's greatest tool. It should be polished and expanded upon with care, forethought and foresight. Precision in Mathematics is essential. I would like to see language approach a similar level of precision without stifling its evolution.

Imagine that this conversation would require of you some commitment. This is not about wishing for 'world peace' (a la Miss Congeniality) but rather finding your place in the world, a place where you would feel comfortable and committed to exercising some form of leadership.

Speaking about language to children and adults alike, not as an instructor, rather as one who would raise awareness of the importance of language within culture and in shaping culture. I would like to show how structured grammar improves communication and how altering particular words in communication alters the meaning of what is being communicated, thus evoking different responses.

 

[Kidege]

I am a teen who would like to be talked to about classic literature.

I... just... God.

I'm making more posts in the Literature threads, if it helps.

Kinda betting you're not Disney-fied. And um, ever read the Pop Wuj (or Popol Vuh)?

(I edited this three times cause I was... surprised and embarrased. Take me seriously, will ya?)

 

[Agent Intellect]

i agree with decaf, though. i think getting typology into education would be nice. all the kids could still learn the same material, but the way its presented to them could be different based on their type. i'd want to make other overhauls to the education system, too. i'd put emphasis on teaching as a discussion forum (class discussions instead of constant lectures and notes) and critical thinking (especially at younger ages) and teach kids to question the status quo, not to believe everything they hear on TV or from so called experts, and not to fall into a consumerism lifestyle. i'd also put more emphasis on learning about real life (at least to the older kids) giving more lessons on how to balance a budget, save for retirement and get a mortgage and other types of life lessons, so that kids can be prepared for more then just their career, they can be prepared to deal with making a living.

 

[loveofreason]

I love this question! This is something that I've always wished for...

The group of people would be: The rare (and seemingly extincted) humble, wise, and open-minded philosophers/psychologist of this world. They are the people who understand humanity's needs as well as the reasons for why they do everything they do - and why it is that we have all the issues/conflicts we do.

The topic/purpose: To discover a way in which to do the seemingly impossible; to completely redirect the way society functions as a whole from "government" ideology, to and idea similar to the one proposed by Aristotle - in which the philosophers are placed at the pinnacle of society to guide it (not to forcefully subdue it).

I imagine it would be a fascinating conversation - pointing out all the flaws of the educational/economical/judicial systems of our world - and where it fails to meet humanity - and what would meet humanity.

Side-Note: I really dislike the government. (or tradition, for that matter)​

I'll take part in this revolution.

 

[INTPINFP]

Just wondering on a lazy Sunday afternoon about the power of conversation to bring about change. I was also wondering about the idea of finding your 'voice' - i.e. the unique expression of your deepest values, desires and principles as manifested both in what you naturally pay attention to and in what actions you commit to (or would like to commit to). How does one find that voice amongst all the deceptive, enculturated voices that steal our attention and lead us in so many different directions?

So here's a question to start off with:

If you could have an ongoing conversation with a specific group of people about a topic of your choice and in doing so, knew that your conversation would bring about beneficial change in that area, who would you choose to talk to and what would you talk about? What change would you hope your conversation might support?

Imagine that this conversation would require of you some commitment. This is not about wishing for 'world peace' (a la Miss Congeniality) but rather finding your place in the world, a place where you would feel comfortable and committed to exercising some form of leadership.

i agree. i think every leader should have a philosophor appointed as an member of his board of advisors

 

[Ogion]

There are many important and interesting things, but i think the most important to me is to get humanity to a sustainable living on (and hopefully off) Earth. For that purpose i probably would have to speak to a large circle of people. Politicians, Economists, Scientists, Media representatives, Educations etc...
I see it as giving future generations the frame from which they may solve all the other important problems humanity has. (Poverty, War, Criminality, Discrimination and lots of others...) I don't think i would have answers to these, and so i would like to make sure there will be the possibility for later generations to ponder these questions and not have to wonder wether they will survive the next day.
Sustainability means what it sounds like. It means to have a way of living with finite ressources in a reasonable way which makes sure that we don't use up our life sustainement system (for the moment Earth, but i hope someday not too far away we will have our feet on more bases and support pillars).
You see, i am a very helpful peron, i really enjoy helping people. And i think giving humankind a sustainable basis of living would be the best kind of help i could ever give, because it will enable, empower future generations to help themselves, to give them a better life...

Thanks nia for this thread, it is an interesting idea, and it certainely is something to be thought of on a regular basis, meaning this (the search for your deepest values and your wishes) is something we should do daily, or more often
Ogion

 

[eudemonia]

Well, at least two people seem to have exercised some attraction by articulating their voice . Kidege and Auburn, what does it feel like to speak from the heart and have others attracted to your words and ideas? When we speak from that place its almost like we cannot help but exercise 'leadership'. I don't mean leadership in the sense of 'follow me, I know best' but in the sense that 'this is what I want to devote my energies to, does anyone want to join me?'.

EB - do you talk to young people in this area? I don't know anyone better suited to inspire enthusiasm for language than you.

Ogion - I loved your vision. I hope you manage to live it out - for all our sakes.
You're right, it is important to connect with our values on a regular basis. It is so easy to wander off the path. I wish someone had helped me when I was younger in this area - it would have saved a lot of wasted time

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

i agree. i think every leader should have a philosophor appointed as an member of his board of advisors

Wait, what's this about philosophers just advising?

Philosopher-kings are superior to kings advised by philosophers.

That being said...

The group of people would be: George Lucas, John Williams, Harrison Ford, Joseph Campbell, and myself.

The topic/purpose: To slap Lucas around for his atrocious second trilogy. After that we would re-write episodes 1-3.

 

[Auburn]

Auburn, what does it feel like to speak from the heart and have others attracted to your words and ideas? When we speak from that place its almost like we cannot help but exercise 'leadership'. I don't mean leadership in the sense of 'follow me, I know best' but in the sense that 'this is what I want to devote my energies to, does anyone want to join me?'.

This is precisely the type of leadership that this world desperately needs! The leadership which does not use 'power', but 'admiration'. Mohandas Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr are perfect examples of this leadership, which is precisely the type of leadership that should sustain and guide society - as opposed to the traditions of politics.

As for how it feels to speak from the heart...
It's comforting to know there are others who share this vision.

If humanity was to always leave visions as only visions, and not dare to put them to action - we would not possess such blessings as we now possess from great minds and hearts of the past who also dared to challenge what was traditionally "accepted" as right and true.

 

[EloquentBohemian]

EB - do you talk to young people in this area? I don't know anyone better suited to inspire enthusiasm for language than you.

Though I have approached some teachers that I know and a few like the idea, the principals and school boards are suspicious of someone who doesn't have a degree in the subject they are presenting or is popular and/or awarded.
Possessing none of the baccalaureates administered by politically-motivated regulatory bureaucracies, one such as I, whose knowledge is acquired by experience and life-long passion, is viewed as substandard and possibly too ingenuous, therefore subversive to the insular systematic education-by-rote structure designed to manufacture productive citizens capable of conforming to the ideals of a consumer-oriented capitalistic paradigm and to accomodate the entrenched institution of prescipted stereotypical functions for which imaginative conceptualization and the enthusiasm of individual exploration are an anathema.

 

[eudemonia]

Pah, why let powerful vested interests and centuries of accumulated culture stop you. Education lets most people down in some way; I don't think it has many advocates in its current form. Go for it - provoke some trouble; open some minds.

 

[FusionKnight]

If only to make people look into the sky at night and realise exactly what they're looking at. I cannot understand how people can be so pre-occupied earthly matters when every night we can see into the universe with our naked eyes. Just turn off the TV and look up.

Okay, you must not live in a big city. I can see like, 3 stars where I live...

If such a meeting of minds took place as the one I described; dedicated to changing the face of the world by providing a "wisdom" based guide to society rather than a "political power" based system -- I would dedicate the rest of my life to see such a revolution take place!

This is precisely the type of leadership that this world derparately needs! The leadership which does not use 'power', but 'admiration'. Mohandas Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr are perfect examples of this leadership, which is precisely the type of leadership that should sustain and guide society - as opposed to the traditions of politics.

I'm on board with that. It dovetails nicely with the libertarian ideals of non-agression, individual sovereignty, and debate vs. coercion.

i agree with decaf, though. i think getting typology into education would be nice. all the kids could still learn the same material, but the way its presented to them could be different based on their type. i'd want to make other overhauls to the education system, too. i'd put emphasis on teaching as a discussion forum (class discussions instead of constant lectures and notes) and critical thinking (especially at younger ages) and teach kids to question the status quo, not to believe everything they hear on TV or from so called experts, and not to fall into a consumerism lifestyle. i'd also put more emphasis on learning about real life (at least to the older kids) giving more lessons on how to balance a budget, save for retirement and get a mortgage and other types of life lessons, so that kids can be prepared for more then just their career, they can be prepared to deal with making a living.

Hey! Get out of my head! After living in the forum for awhile, it's getting crowded in here!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Originally Posted by Cognisant
If only to make people look into the sky at night and realise exactly what they're looking at. I cannot understand how people can be so pre-occupied earthly matters when every night we can see into the universe with our naked eyes. Just turn off the TV and look up.

Okay, you must not live in a big city. I can see like, 3 stars where I live...

That would be one satellite and two Boeing 747's.

 

[FusionKnight]

Exactly!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Pah, why let powerful vested interests and centuries of accumulated culture stop you. Education lets most people down in some way; I don't think it has many advocates in its current form. Go for it - provoke some trouble; open some minds.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. (as eudemonia shoves EB into a crowd of calculator-wielding accountants, pencil-sharpening administrators and school-bored lobbyists)

 

[eudemonia]

Yay, go for it EB. And the Jungian interpretation of pencil-sharpening administrators is...

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Phallic, to say the least.

 

[Kidege]

Isn't that Freudian?

 

[EloquentBohemian]

Hmmm... true. Then what would Jung say about pencil-sharpening administrators?
Must ponder this.