If SJs really follow what they taught, what happens then?

[scorpiomover]

Suppose there is a community where people are continually told since birth, and all the way through school, that the ONLY way to figure out anything, is to think rationally and scientifically. Everyone they know, including all their family, their parents, their grandparents, their siblings, their cousins, their aunts and uncles, their friends, and everyone else, all have jobs that employ only advanced rational and scientific thinking, like scientists. Everyone they know is an atheist, and everyone they know rejects religion as being irrational superstition. They are continually told since birth and right through school by all of their teachers, including their science teachers, that everyone is a scientifically rational atheist who loves science and works in STEM fields, and that only a tiny minority are not, and that the tiny minority who aren't are mentally retarded or mentally ill.

If SJs really do follow what they are taught, what happens to them then? What do they believe? How do they behave? What jobs do they choose? Do they become Xians? Do they become atheists?

 

[Cherry Cola]

They become boring science preachers and religion-bashers who like to think themselves terribly rational, yes enlightened. Of course I've done my fair share of science preaching and religion bashing myself, as have plenty of other N-types here, but when SJ types do this it's different.

What sets them apart is that they aren't really intellectual in an overall sense. They know the arguments for science and against religion, and they repeat those over and over, and that's enough for them to consider themselves enlightened. Are they particularly well read? No. Do they endeavor to become enlightened learned people? No, in their eyes they already are, being able to preach science and bash religion is enough to them, that's where their world ends. It's all they think about.

If these people become numerous and start getting active irl it wont be pretty.

 

[Analyzer]

What Cherry said. Basically they become guardians of dogma.

 

[scorpiomover]

They become boring science preachers and religion-bashers who like to think themselves terribly rational, yes enlightened. Of course I've done my fair share of science preaching and religion bashing myself, as have plenty of other N-types here, but when SJ types do this it's different.

What sets them apart is that they aren't really intellectual in an overall sense. They know the arguments for science and against religion, and they repeat those over and over, and that's enough for them to consider themselves enlightened. Are they particularly well read? No. Do they endeavor to become enlightened learned people? No, in their eyes they already are, being able to preach science and bash religion is enough to them, that's where their world ends. It's all they think about.

Ummm...

If they are taught they have to read a book, then following what they are taught means that they read the book.

If they are taught that they have to endeavor to become enlightened learned people, then following what they are taught means that they endeavor to become enlightened learned people.

If they are taught that they should not preach science, then following what they are taught means that they don't preach science.

If they are taught that they should not bash religion, then following what they are taught means that they don't bash religion.

So your answer doesn't make sense, as it contains an inherent contradiction, namely, that SJ who follow what they are taught, do NOT follow what they are taught.

Your answer could make sense, if what you are trying to say is that SJs don't follow what they are taught, and so don't follow orders.

 

[Cherry Cola]

They follow what they are taught to the extent that they understand it. Teaching them science and rationality wont render them N-types.

 

[Puffy]

It's been my position here a long time, but I think it's a mistake to assume that SJs by virtue of their functions are anti-intellectual or purely siphons for their environment. The functions are different modalities, they don't determine intelligence. Our society is inundated with low and dumbed-down/ entertainment slanted information; I really don't think the more intelligent users here are reflective of the average N type....

You could argue that the major visionaries are more likely to be N's just as their functions are more geared towards origination, but that doesn't mean the majority of N's are like this and it excludes the possibility that S can achieve its own kind of excellence (origination isn't the only value...).

Like if you said Si (SJ) values precedent: that doesn't necessitate irrationality or that they'll just adopt whatever they were born into. It just means an intellectual Si user is more likely to have a deeper sense of history, and probably a larger data-pool than you.

 

[TheManBeyond]

If an extraterrestrial race of multiorgasmic SPs come to earth and preach the ultimate and only truth, a kind of reasoning that escapes our comprenhension, think of lovecraft for a second, SJs science will end up as a religion, like an eternal loop. They'll eventually find enjoyable the blisfull process of intercourse with those from beyond, thus as ages go by they will drift apart from what they were.

 

[TBerg]

I agree generally with Puffy about the differences in strengths. I would just like to add the simple fact of manifestation of inferior Intuition. That, and a little bit of aversion to absolute prejudice on our part, should lead us to understand other kinds of people more accurately.

 

[scorpiomover]

They follow what they are taught to the extent that they understand it. Teaching them science and rationality wont render them N-types.

If N/S is a measure of intelligence, then we already have IQ tests that measure intelligence. We can't rely on your testimony to be absolutely certain that you're an N, because of self-bias. But most of us have had either IQ tests, or tests in school that are highly correlated with IQ. So show us your old school results, and we'll tell you if you're an N or an S. In particular, IQ tests tend to focus on logical reasoning. 30% of IQ tests are maths questions. So, we can tell your IQ, and thus if you are an N or an S, by how good you are at maths and logical reasoning.

We can't argue that N/S adds the measure of a division in groups of the matter of intelligence, because science already showed that it was a sliding scale, and how much N one uses is too.

So then N/S doesn't exist. It can't.

We can't argue that Jung thought of N/S as intelligence, because the concept and tests of IQ were already around for 22 years and were universally accepted for several years before Jung published Psychological Types. Further, it's completely incompatible with the Jung's theory, because first, Jung makes the majority of the differences between Introverts and Extroverts, and further, because he does not distinguish between N/S in all the J-doms, which is fully half of the types.

However, we can see that there is a meme that is believed by many, that the world is divided into smart people and stupid people, and that such levels of IQ are for the most part fixed and unchanged since birth, and so smart people cannot be stupid, and stupid people cannot become smart. This meme dates back easily to the Medieval Era. It's usually claimed by those that claim to be very smart, but cannot justify it by any objective means.

We have objective means to test their intelligence. It's just those tests don't justify their claims of being smart.

 

[maybeacannibal]

Well, my situation growing up as an ISTJ was reversed. I was raised by Pagan parents in a community that was predominantly Christian, yet rejected both of these belief systems by the time I became a teenager and was the only atheist I knew. Ridiculing religion is not something I do, though. It's as simple as: if somebody makes a claim, I pummel them with questions or correct them factually if need be. It's true that I don't usually bother pondering the intricacies of theories if I already have a few essential criteria in mind that must be met before I will even take an idea seriously. I'm more of a critic than a pioneer. If my logic has been bested, I will re evaluate myself, and in my head go over the specifics of everything that was said, and afterwards come to a conclusion. The majority of what I think comes from my own analysis, not borrowed arguments. I also have to believe that it is the sturdiness of the approach itself rather than tradition or admiration for others that caused me to embrace skepticism. If humans had no ability to think critically, were influenced by the same subjective experiences and reacted psychologically to them in the same way, and were so predictable that a temperament encompassing 4 different contrived personality types could determine the behavior and fate of all of them, perhaps I could speculate, but I've found that's not the case.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Well, my situation growing up as an ISTJ was reversed. I was raised by Pagan parents in a community that was predominantly Christian, yet rejected both of these belief systems by the time I became a teenager and was the only atheist I knew. Ridiculing religion is not something I do, though. It's as simple as: if somebody makes a claim, I pummel them with questions or correct them factually if need be. It's true that I don't usually bother pondering the intricacies of theories if I already have a few essential criteria in mind that must be met before I will even take an idea seriously. I'm more of a critic than a pioneer. If my logic has been bested, I will re evaluate myself, and in my head go over the specifics of everything that was said, and afterwards come to a conclusion. The majority of what I think comes from my own analysis, not borrowed arguments. I also have to believe that it is the sturdiness of the approach itself rather than tradition or admiration for others that caused me to embrace skepticism. If humans had no ability to think critically, were influenced by the same subjective experiences and reacted psychologically to them in the same way, and were so predictable that a temperament encompassing 4 different contrived personality types could determine the behavior and fate of all of them, perhaps I could speculate, but I've found that's not the case.

how did you conclude ISTJ? also, how old are you if i may ask?

 

[Black Rose]

Brontosaurie,

You said that I was ISFJ. If so I only followed what I believed to be in line with Fe. I was firmly resistant to people who would not compromise. With Si I would remember facts that I would tell me if someone was able to be reliable in the past and by using Ti share with them my perspective I gathered through Ne. Most people I met in life were unreliable so as to make assumptions about me or my ideas and this is why I was carful not to tests their limits that would provoke them unless they made me really angry because then I would use Fe to show them how much they were not objectively right and were inconsistent. This made them see me as inconsistent because I had to act different with each person who would get angry if I was being open. I did not lie I only gave alternatives I saw with Ne and if I told them something I thought was an relative truth they would take it that I believed it absolutely.

I'm am not sure if I am making any sense but I cannot tell with certainty that some one is likely to reject me before having to get to know them. Intuitive instantly know if something is real or not real or if a person is deceptive or open.

You ask simple questions and give simple responses that you know will lead others to the truth. I must give lots of data so as not to be misunderstood of the entire perspective I hold in Ne. I don't instantly know the answers or absolute truths until they are revealed to me. I do free association but cannot not create something entirely new or original. My brother tells me I am a rip-off and just today my almost friend age 67 told me my story book was for stoners not children and had no character development.

I wonder what you will say to me because I bet you know intuitively more about me than I do about you experientially.

 

[WALKYRIA]

There are plenty of smart and highly able sj out there and yet they lack the important things... originality... they get great grades an do what is taught to them. they don't do introspection. i hate them with a passion, even the highly able ones... big iq but a bad use of the iq. they are great students, they become engeneer, doctors.... but they never create anything news. no theory; no advancement, just good tools able to process great amount of information; and if they have some intuition in their function stack, they sometimes use big intellectual words lol !!
i know them; i hate them, because they are well organized and get shit done.... and above all else, they are perfectly well behaved, which renders them even more hateble.

 

[TheManBeyond]

Most STJs beat the shit out of you easily at anytime becuz they are probably the best equipped type to survive in real life, like you said high IQs + practical skills = deadly combo, you can't even look up for a second cuz you're already biting the dust once again. This is from my personal experience with my sista and fatha both E/I-STJs and observations of the family dynamics.
You can't easily mix Ps with STJs, No.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Brontosaurie,

You said that I was ISFJ. If so I only followed what I believed to be in line with Fe. I was firmly resistant to people who would not compromise. With Si I would remember facts that I would tell me if someone was able to be reliable in the past and by using Ti share with them my perspective I gathered through Ne. Most people I met in life were unreliable so as to make assumptions about me or my ideas and this is why I was carful not to tests their limits that would provoke them unless they made me really angry because then I would use Fe to show them how much they were not objectively right and were inconsistent. This made them see me as inconsistent because I had to act different with each person who would get angry if I was being open. I did not lie I only gave alternatives I saw with Ne and if I told them something I thought was an relative truth they would take it that I believed it absolutely.

I'm am not sure if I am making any sense but I cannot tell with certainty that some one is likely to reject me before having to get to know them. Intuitive instantly know if something is real or not real or if a person is deceptive or open.

You ask simple questions and give simple responses that you know will lead others to the truth. I must give lots of data so as not to be misunderstood of the entire perspective I hold in Ne. I don't instantly know the answers or absolute truths until they are revealed to me. I do free association but cannot not create something entirely new or original. My brother tells me I am a rip-off and just today my almost friend age 67 told me my story book was for stoners not children and had no character development.

I wonder what you will say to me because I bet you know intuitively more about me than I do about you experientially.

i don't know what to say. mostly i feel a bit guilty that you went scrutinizing yourself like that because of my opinion on your type.

or is it some kind of reductio ad absurdum perhaps? maybe sarcasm. i have no idea. i use my Ne to not know anything, and store this non-knowledge with my Si.

 

[Black Rose]

i don't know what to say. mostly i feel a bit guilty that you went scrutinizing yourself like that because of my opinion on your type.

or is it some kind of reductio ad absurdum perhaps? maybe sarcasm. i have no idea. i use my Ne to not know anything, and store this non-knowledge with my Si.

When ever I think I might be another type than I thought previously I try to get inside it like if it was really me but its just me taking on a different persona revisiting all my previous actions with people and what I say on this forum and elsewhere.

Its not sarcasm, I just thought you may have been correct and I have plenty of free time to analyze what people think of me.

 

[Brontosaurie]

When ever I think I might be another type than I thought previously I try to get inside it like if it was really me but its just me taking on a different persona revisiting all my previous actions with people and what I say on this forum and elsewhere.

Its not sarcasm, I just thought you may have been correct and I have plenty of free time to analyze what people think of me.

it's a good thing to do. i do it too, internally, but i wouldn't do it publicly for some reason. pride/inhibition, etc.

my idea behind the type assessment ISFJ is basically that i've observed signs of inferior Ne (attraction to novel ideas and novel combinations within particular conceptual domains, unaware of holistic implications which often disqulify or annul the seemingly profound) along with Si-Fe (you make the impression of a genuinely benign, caring person with honest motives which is hallmark SFJ).

i remember assigning another type to you in the past. not sure what my reasoning was then, but this one is more solid. still i don't claim authority.

 

[maybeacannibal]

how did you conclude ISTJ? also, how old are you if i may ask?

That depends. What part of that does not make sense to you? The S? I have close to no enthusiasm for theory and would rather accept reality than try to change it. It's probably worth mentioning, however, that this does necessarily mean I always approve of the way things are or go along with it myself. I can only control what is inside my own mind, and do not expect the rest of the world to meet my preferences. I am more concerned with basic pleasures and experiences and making the most out of what is. I still discuss N-related things from time to time, but that type of stimulation is not something I actively seek out, and after a time it can frustrate and exhaust me. The J? I am a workaholic and neat freak. Organizing, maintaining, and other mundane tasks are energizing to me. I do not learn new things for the sake of knowledge itself, but rather for their practicality and because I value accuracy, thus I am not highly experimental unless the current system is clearly inefficient. I'm 21.

 

[scorpiomover]

it's a good thing to do. i do it too, internally, but i wouldn't do it publicly for some reason. pride/inhibition, etc.

my idea behind the type assessment ISFJ is basically that i've observed signs of inferior Ne (attraction to novel ideas and novel combinations within particular conceptual domains, unaware of holistic implications which often disqulify or annul the seemingly profound) along with Si-Fe (you make the impression of a genuinely benign, caring person with honest motives which is hallmark SFJ).

i remember assigning another type to you in the past. not sure what my reasoning was then, but this one is more solid. still i don't claim authority.

ISFJs consciously like to stick to tradition, no matter what.

Animekitty keeps pummelling out wild idea after wild idea. They're usually feeling-based, and so comes out in NF areas, like religious spirituality.

If you ask me, he/she is classic Ne-Fi.