I think every INTP has probably had an existential crisis based on this thought

[Beholder]

http://www.xkcd.com/1163/

 

[Back2Basics]

all NTP's

 

[Cognisant]

I'm still wondering why we live, y'know there's my Schopenhauer based argument "if to live for our own sake is to live for the pleasure of living, and you're not enjoying life, then your reason for living is defunct" which I guess implies we really live for fear, either the fear of death or the fear of missing out on what good life may yet offer us, perhaps some mixture of the two.

Then again my rumination on the essence of sentimental value (which I haven't discussed online yet) suggests to me that we may live for each other, firstly because the ego is irrelevant without other people (in other words suicide is to forsake all pride, a complete and utter denial of one's self worth) and secondly because our significant emotional investments are generally, almost exclusively, in other people (in other words suicide is a complete and utter denial of all present emotion and connections of emotional value).

I know an awful lot about suicide, it's a pity I'm incapable of it myself.

 

[snafupants]

I'm still wondering why we live, y'know there's my Schopenhauer based argument "if to live for our own sake is to live for the pleasure of living, and you're not enjoying life, then your reason for living is defunct" which I guess implies we really live for fear, either the fear of death or the fear of missing out on what good life may yet offer us, perhaps some mixture of the two.

Then again my rumination on the essence of sentimental value (which I haven't discussed online yet) suggests to me that we may live for each other, firstly because the ego is irrelevant without other people (in other words suicide is to forsake all pride, a complete and utter denial of one's self worth) and secondly because our significant emotional investments are generally, almost exclusively, in other people (in other words suicide is a complete and utter denial of all present emotion and connections of emotional value).

I know an awful lot about suicide, it's a pity I'm incapable of it myself.

@Cognisant

Schopenhauer is decidedly ambiguous on some points, especially suicide and the afterlife. It's also curious that Schopenhauer extolled stoicism and frugality when Schopenhauer himself proposed marriage around age seventy, routinely frequented the theatre, and dined at fine restaurants. At any rate, I feel I'm perfectly capable of the deed but, as pathetic as it sounds, I lack the motivation. I should also add that perhaps desiring to sidestep family grief is another reason, in addition to the two you listed (i.e., fear of death and de facto hedonism). It almost makes no difference to me. I live, to some degree, for others and the dissemination of knowledge. Without a family, I'm not sure I'd be typing right now. The scary thing is I can see myself just deciding one day to take a dirt nap.

 

[Back2Basics]

@Cognisant

Schopenhauer is decidedly ambiguous on some points, especially suicide and the afterlife. It's also curious that Schopenhauer extolled stoicism and frugality when Schopenhauer himself proposed marriage around age seventy, routinely frequented the theatre, and dined at fine restaurants. At any rate, I feel I'm perfectly capable of the deed but, as pathetic as it sounds, I lack the motivation. I should also add that perhaps desiring to sidestep family grief is another reason, in addition to the two you listed (i.e., fear of death and de facto hedonism). It almost makes no difference to me. I live, to some degree, for others and the dissemination of knowledge. Without a family, I'm not sure I'd be typing right now. The scary thing is I can see myself just deciding one day to take a dirt nap.

what is a dirt nap and what does this signify?

 

[snafupants]

what is a dirt nap and what does this signify?

Odd second question - I guess the post signifies an extension of Cog's reasons to live or, more exactly, reasons not to hastily off oneself. Haha, contemplate a cemetery and then renegotiate the dirt nap question.

 

[Emelina]

I had that existential crisis when I was a little kid, I had forgotten about it! It was so strange. I didn't trust my brain anymore. I also kept turning around the terrifying thought that I was I. I know it sounds pretty stupid, but the thought that my brain had to take care of an individual human being drove me nuts. A person! I don't know, it just felt like too much responsibility for a four-year old.

I decided to just go with it and see what happened. Lately I've been asking the people who know me best to please point out the 3 most important faults they can find in me, I think that helps. It's very enlightening.

 

[snafupants]

Suicide's a hard thing to parse because you can't know future pain. It's basically a glorified guess based on past pain to pleasure ratios. I mean, killing yourself might be the thing to do if you've been dealt an unfavorable hand and you have no foreseeable prospects of extricating yourself from unfavorable circumstances. When you add in the personal pain and concomitant onus on others, suicide almost seems sensible. The stoics felt that way anyhow. Shit, give it your best shot but you need to know when to fold 'em too. Just be safe about it and only take yourself out. I hate hearing stories about some bloke despairingly leaping into traffic. Be considerate, jeez.

 

[Back2Basics]

where is arbre, france?

 

[Etheri]

where is arbre, france?

There are 2 small belgian villages named Arbre. I'm assume there might be a couple of french villages named Arbre aswell. As you probably know, it's also french for 'tree'. I assume snafu lives in a treehouse.

On topic : I love the cartoon, but i have no issues with the crisis at this moment. <:

 

[Cognisant]

I neither currently support nor decry suicide, at the moment I think I agree most with Kim from the second "Ghost in the Shell" movie, specifically that enlightenment can only be seen through the eyes of a doll, or a corpse, because the truth of the universe is so profoundly nihilistic that any conscious being is incapable of perceiving it, or to put it another way the distinction of self is a separation of oneself from the rest of the universe and in the oblivion of death the matter of which we are comprised is freed of this delusion, returning from whence it never left. If you too perceived absolute truth your mind would be so utterly unbiased that even if you had a brain you wouldn't function as a conscious being, and thus you would be just like a doll or a corpse.

 

[Back2Basics]

There are 2 small belgian villages named Arbre. I'm assume there might be a couple of french villages named Arbre aswell. As you probably know, it's also french for 'tree'. I assume snafu lives in a treehouse.

On topic : I love the cartoon, but i have no issues with the crisis at this moment. <:

what browser are you using? <---------

 

[Da Blob]

Hmm, Whereas I resolved that crisis long ago, by realizing the brain can not understand the brain, anymore than a reflection can understand that which it reflects. A brain does not understand anything at all it is just a quantifiable object, Understanding, in turn, is a quality of the subjective mind.

Those which an equal quantity of brains can exhibit a tremendous variance in the quality of their minds.

It is perhaps the epitome of irony that some of those subjects with the best quality of minds, use those minds to discount the existence of minds simply because they can't be observed and quantified like objects.

Using quality to attempt to discount the reality of quality, is very much like using a working brain to attempt to figure out how a working brain works.

 

[Cognisant]

Hmm, Whereas I resolved that crisis long ago, by realizing the brain can not understand the brain, anymore than a reflection can understand that which it reflects.

Unless you're Da Blob in which case you can understand the brain well enough to make claims like that, even though paradoxically the claim itself is that you can't.

 

[Da Blob]

Unless you're Da Blob in which case you can understand the brain well enough to make claims like that, even though paradoxically the claim itself is that you can't.

My brain can't make any claims at all or ask any questions, it is just an information processing system that deals primarily with input. It is my mind via the exercise of free will that makes claims and asks questions as output, using just a sliver of neurology to do so.

Of course I can't 'prove' that objectively, because that which I speak of is not an object,
But then neither is consciousness, in fact it is rather difficult just to be conscious of consciousness, much less hold it still long enough for it to be measured on a standardized scale.

 

[snafupants]

There are 2 small belgian villages named Arbre. I'm assume there might be a couple of french villages named Arbre aswell. As you probably know, it's also french for 'tree'. I assume snafu lives in a treehouse.

On topic : I love the cartoon, but i have no issues with the crisis at this moment. <:

Er, or the planet from Neal Stephenson's Anathem.

 

[Starswirl]

Oh yes, that existential crisis...

It troubled me for a year or so. Eventually I just learned to deal with it, since there was no way around it and I couldn't solve it.

 

[Fghw]

I try not to think about it.

 

[snafupants]

Jung talked about how ill-suited Ni-dominants were for this industrialized world in which those who divide the conscious from unconscious, in favor of the conscious, prosper; Ni types have more "permeability" between conscious and unconscious which, in the extreme, leads to psychogenic disturbances as the avalanche of Ni unconscious images inexorably makes its way into inexplicable and manifest conscious phantasms vis-a-vis waking life. That said, I actually feel Ti types have a tough or tougher row to hoe because they feel compelled to inductively construct their own epistemological architecture from the overwhelming proliferation of information in a digital age. Where Ni types "know," Ti types need to constantly find out. Ne hastens the search and maybe ups the anxiety, or the time crunch in finding clean existential solutions.

 

[Philovitist]

Should stop talking about MBTI as if it's an actually sound framework for understanding mentation.

Hmm, Whereas I resolved that crisis long ago, by realizing the brain can not understand the brain, anymore than a reflection can understand that which it reflects. A brain does not understand anything at all it is just a quantifiable object, Understanding, in turn, is a quality of the subjective mind.

Those which an equal quantity of brains can exhibit a tremendous variance in the quality of their minds.

It is perhaps the epitome of irony that some of those subjects with the best quality of minds, use those minds to discount the existence of minds simply because they can't be observed and quantified like objects.

Using quality to attempt to discount the reality of quality, is very much like using a working brain to attempt to figure out how a working brain works.

Your mind and your brain are the same thing. Dualism is dead. Has been for long time.

 

[Da Blob]

Should stop talking about MBTI as if it's an actually sound framework for understanding mentation.

Actually there are neurological correlations between the scales of the MBTI and the four dynamic systems observed in the human brain...

Your mind and your brain are the same thing. Dualism is dead. Has been for long time.

No, it just has been discounted in some politically correct circles. Humans are Subjects and Humans are Objects. We store knowledge of the Subject in the epistemology of the Humanities and we store knowledge of the Object in the epistemology of the Sciences.

 

[Jennywocky]

http://www.xkcd.com/1163/

yeah, that one's hanging on my wall.

Should stop talking about MBTI as if it's an actually sound framework for understanding mentation.

Actually there are neurological correlations between the scales of the MBTI and the four dynamic systems observed in the human brain...

And they are....?
And they are where...?

No, it just has been discounted in some politically correct circles. Humans are Subjects and Humans are Objects. We store knowledge of the Subject in the epistemology of the Humanities and we store knowledge of the Object in the epistemology of the Sciences.

And what does that have to do with you suggesting that there is a "mind" that is separate from the "brain"?

Is there "sight" that is separate from the "eye" or some other kind of photosensitive/heat sensitive body organ?

 

[Architect]

And what does that have to do with you suggesting that there is a "mind" that is separate from the "brain"?

Is there "sight" that is separate from the "eye" or some other kind of photosensitive/heat sensitive body organ?

Go @Jennywocky!

 

[Da Blob]

yeah, that one's hanging on my wall.



And they are....?
And they are where...?

via evolutionary psychology, stress psychology etc.

Reptilian > S
Old Mammalian > F
Neomammalian/right hemisphere > N (~I/P)
Neocortex/left hemisphere > E (~T/J)


And what does that have to do with you suggesting that there is a "mind" that is separate from the "brain"?

I am not sure of the point of the question? The Reptilian and Old Mammalian portions of the human brain are relatively primitive structures that lack the quality of Mind, for neither S nor F require thought.
The mind and brain are not separated physically, per se, IMO, but are separate phenomena that overlap in one location, analogous to both software and hardware both being located in a computer. The concept of the Mind as defined from the subjective POV of the Humanities is separate from the concept of Brain as defined from the objective POV of the Sciences

Is there "sight" that is separate from the "eye" or some other kind of photosensitive/heat sensitive body organ?

Yes, it is called imagination...

 

[Cognisant]

Stare at it for a while...

 

[Philovitist]

Should stop talking about MBTI as if it's an actually sound framework for understanding mentation.

Actually there are neurological correlations between the scales of the MBTI and the four dynamic systems observed in the human brain...

Wow, really? Can you link me to that? That's amazing.

No, it just has been discounted in some politically correct circles. Humans are Subjects and Humans are Objects. We store knowledge of the Subject in the epistemology of the Humanities and we store knowledge of the Object in the epistemology of the Sciences.

Political correctness has nothing to do with cognitive neuroscience. Nothing else you typed in this blurb makes any sense.

 

[Philovitist]

yeah, that one's hanging on my wall.



And they are....?
And they are where...?

via evolutionary psychology, stress psychology etc.

Reptilian > S
Old Mammalian > F
Neomammalian/right hemisphere > N (~I/P)
Neocortex/left hemisphere > E (~T/J)

Wow, really? Can you link me to that? That's amazing.

And what does that have to do with you suggesting that there is a "mind" that is separate from the "brain"?

I am not sure of the point of the question? The Reptilian and Old Mammalian portions of the human brain are relatively primitive structures that lack the quality of Mind, for neither S nor F require thought.
The mind and brain are not separated physically, per se, IMO, but are separate phenomena that overlap in one location, analogous to both software and hardware both being located in a computer. The concept of the Mind as defined from the subjective POV of the Humanities is separate from the concept of Brain as defined from the objective POV of the Sciences

What? Software and hardware don't "overlap". Software is of the hardware (ex. by creating indentations in a disc or something) and executed by, you guessed it, the hardware doing things. It's all just hardware doing things.

Is there "sight" that is separate from the "eye" or some other kind of photosensitive/heat sensitive body organ?

Yes, it is called imagination...

Imagery is not sight.

 

[Jennywocky]

Wow, really? Can you link me to that? That's amazing.

Lenore Thomson tries to attach the same kinds of locations to similar functions, but to me it just seems to be a hypothesis based on the personality theory in question. Of course you would try to attach N and T to "higher thinking" areas and S and F instincts to the earlier areas like reptilian and mammilian. It's all part of the theoretical.

(Although I'm sure it will upset some, as it insinuates that N and T are "more advanced" than S and F. Fun times.)

 

[Sabina]

Ugh....and I thought I had just gotten past that....back to the drawing board. LOL!

If you haven't, you're not an INTP.

 

[Astronometal]

Everything is a philosophical problem with no solution when you're an INTP. Yeppers.

 

[Philovitist]

Everything is a philosophical problem with no solution when you're an INTP. Yeppers.

What's the point of being an INTP if you can't come up with solutions to philosophical problems?

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm considering having my brain

a) washed
b) analyzed
c) transplanted

Which, if any, should I carry out?

 

[SpiralHacker]

There was a point where it became very clear to me that even if I came to intellectually understand some limitations about my mind, that that in itself does not allow me to change those limitations and more work would have to be done. There are also some limitations that are simply neurobiology and no matter what I come to understand, will not be able to surmount. This made me sad, but I suppose if our brains transformed more than they do with new understandings than they do already, then this in itself may cause more problems.

Lenore Thomson tries to attach the same kinds of locations to similar functions, but to me it just seems to be a hypothesis based on the personality theory in question. Of course you would try to attach N and T to "higher thinking" areas and S and F instincts to the earlier areas like reptilian and mammilian. It's all part of the theoretical.

(Although I'm sure it will upset some, as it insinuates that N and T are "more advanced" than S and F. Fun times.)

I'm not sure what the original post was referring to, but Lenore Thomson's mappings for all the functions are of the neo-cortex, the newest part of our mind. In her model, Se and Ne share the same region, as do Ti and Fi. She does not suggest, anywhere, that N or T are more advanced.

 

[pseudonym]

This is always fun to think on. The LIfe of an ntp is, an exostencial crisis. My mOst recent has been that it is naive to presume logic, is the highest level of thought. I then went on to try and prove or disprove the need fo suh a higher system... Logically of course.
Ps. Apologies if this is considered off topic, or unintersesting, I am not familiar with social protocol on this forum Orr any for that matter and what the agreed upon ratio is for space usage to contibution to discussion is.

 

[UfarkTheRipe]

If I'm not sure about the OS, I liveboot the hardware into another OS.

 

[FlowerThug]

if the brain were so simple to be understood, we would be too simple to understand the brain.

Forgot who said that

 

[Jennywocky]

if the brain were so simple to be understood, we would be too simple to understand the brain.

Forgot who said that

You did.

 

[QuickTwist]

I got a little bit of a chuckle out of looking at the the cartoon.

This idea is being linked to suicide... really?

Suicide's a hard thing to parse because you can't know future pain. It's basically a glorified guess based on past pain to pleasure ratios. I mean, killing yourself might be the thing to do if you've been dealt an unfavorable hand and you have no foreseeable prospects of extricating yourself from unfavorable circumstances. When you add in the personal pain and concomitant onus on others, suicide almost seems sensible. The stoics felt that way anyhow. Shit, give it your best shot but you need to know when to fold 'em too. Just be safe about it and only take yourself out. I hate hearing stories about some bloke despairingly leaping into traffic. Be considerate, jeez.

Suicide must be the hot topic on the forums. Quit being emo and make an accurate assessment for what the cartoon says about life; do it like Elmo would do. *Note* not directed at snafupants per se.



Here is my assessment:

1. It is a person making a statement of a quandary they have about their own consciousness.
2. It is identifying the idea that we, as humans, have a threshhold for understanding our own consciousness.
3. It is stating that this individual wants to know if it is a problem they should be concerened with given at what level they do understand there own consciousness.

It would be awesome if someone could come up with a statement, hypothesis or f(x) function to determine at what level your state of consciousness is. A test to go along with this would be helpful as well.

I'm considering having my brain

a) washed
b) analyzed
c) transplanted

Which, if any, should I carry out?

If your brain has a problem I would say if you want to be thorough you may have to do all three

1. Have it analyzed
2. If there is a problem, have it washed
3. Have it analyzed again
4. If the problem persists then you need it to be transplated
5. Repeat steps 1-4 until you havea perfect brain

 

[BigApplePi]

This time I have to agree with Jenny. I'm almost certain you did.

 

[QuickTwist]

BIG NEWS ONTHE HOMEFRONT. I went out to eat tonight. I had to take some home in a box.

 

[FlowerThug]

You did.

Ian Stewart.

No idea who he is or what he does.