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I simply do not believe

J-man

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When I think about my life, I feel that somebody's got to be putting me on. Somewhere along the line I bought into some story I was told and that story is only a product of the imagination.

I am a person. My time is limited. I just happened to be born at a time when suddenly all the information you could ever need is easily available.

What's more, I've been born into a position that I was not designed for. Evolution designed us for a certain kind of life, and I just happened to be born at a time when the world changed dramatically, and as a result I have to bust my ass just to live a normal life. That last piece is probably the most obvious, and it speaks more to the dogma of the western world. And that dogma is so deeply engrained in us that we will never be separate from it.

But I'm not talking only about the western cultural delusion (at least I think not). I mean to speak to more fundamental issues, such as the belief that I am a "person".

Here's the story: this is life. You are a person. You have preferences, difficulties, peers. You were born in a time when the world was on the brink of a technological singularity, an advancement of unimaginably epic proportions. [crossed out because it might paint the wrong picture]

I simply do not believe that story. Not any of it.


I think that's more a reflection of the human tendency to make up stories about our experiences. We must have some way to work with the world, and this story-constructing machine is it (and this speaks to the value of religion/mythology... and even TV). We all inherited more or less the same story and we expand upon it. But I cannot bring myself to believe it anymore.
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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i was once thought i should school but then i was not smart so i not know what to do. Singularity is all my expectations, the narrative of social constructs is silly.
 

Anktark

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Not sure if I understood what you mean, but you don't think you have a sort of inner core? Rather, you are a bunch of memories and preferences with a delusion of self-awareness? In my mind this train goes to a debate about free will.

Hmm, looks like you are down with a case of existential crisis. If you would rather not experience it right now, I suggest/recommend taking a daily pellet of Fuckitall.
 

Vrecknidj

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I don't either. I believe in free will.

This does remind me of lyrics from one of Dar Williams' songs.

Farewell To The Old Me
By Dar Williams

How can I ask love to hold the mystery
When just look at me
It's all push and pull collateral
I don't want to be the one who gets the next surprise
I'll plan it out this time
Though I used to think that things were meant to be

So farewell to the old me
Farewell to the old me
My life is working better now
It's always changing anyhow

I danced a lot of nights until the grass was wet
It wasn't over yet
'Round 'bout 3 a.m. you made a friend
And I followed a lot of vital crazy thoughts
Because it's where the meaning was
And I tried to find it every other way

So farewell to the old me
Farewell to the old me
My life is getting better now
But always changing anyhow

But I can turn on the charm
Show them nothing more
Than what I've done before
It's nothing much new
But it'll do
'Cause I don't want to be the one who makes you laugh out loud
I want to make you proud
And you always said you knew what I could be

So farewell to the old me
Farewell to the old me
Farewell to the old me
My life is working better now
But always changing anyhow
Time
And the old me
Farewell to the old me
Farewell...
 

Absurdity

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Yeah I don't get what you are trying to say either.
 

J-man

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I wasn't sure if I was getting my point across... It's like this: this life seems way too much like a construction of the imagination to be believable.

The very fact that we exist at all seems like it's got to be some kind of a joke or... something. Joke really isn't the right word, and I don't mean to endorse creationism, not at all.

Maybe I'll have to give it time to flesh this idea out some more. I was hoping someone felt the way I do and could elaborate on it.

Not sure if I understood what you mean, but you don't think you have a sort of inner core? Rather, you are a bunch of memories and preferences with a delusion of self-awareness? In my mind this train goes to a debate about free will.
I mean, yes, I am a bunch of memories and preferences with a delusion of self-awareness. But that's just a story and it's only true if we pretend it's true.

I don't mean for this conversation to have anything to do with the debate about free will. Maybe I just don't see how that's relevant, though I'll note that I usually look at things as unfolding "mechanically", even humans.
 

Cognisant

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Yay another existentialist.

The very fact that we exist at all seems like it's got to be some kind of a joke or... something. Joke really isn't the right word, and I don't mean to endorse creationism, not at all.
I think it's a probability thing, if something exists it would be odd if that certain something was the only thing to exist so I think if something exists then everything has to exist and if everything exists then the reason why we exist is because if it was all possible for that question to be asked (which it evidently is) then there had to be someone somewhere capable of asking it and that somewhere just happens to be here.

Of course that dosen't explain why anything exists at all in the first place.
I doubt the answer to that has anything to do with us.
 

kora

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Yay another existentialist.


I think it's a probability thing, if something exists it would be odd if that certain something was the only thing to exist so I think if something exists then everything has to exist and if everything exists then the reason why we exist is because if it was all possible for that question to be asked (which it evidently is) then there had to be someone somewhere capable of asking it and that somewhere just happens to be here.

Of course that dosen't explain why anything exists at all in the first place.
I doubt the answer to that has anything to do with us.

If everything exists somewhere there is a God who loves us and everything's fine so we can just all relax now as death is not the end and stuff.

Or the Doctor will save us
 

kora

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I understand your thoughts on not being suitably evolved and adapted for the modern cultural/information boom and sometimes wrestle with theses thoughts a little. While "fuckitall" is one way you can also try and love it/ bear it. evolution has equipped us with a brain of incredible plasticity, able to adapt to anything, which is why we were so successful and basically can survive in all environments from North pole to Sahara desert and so far even briefly in space. (although tardigrades do well too) I think many people see our excessively technological fast culture as divorced from nature, a kind of aberration, but culture is nature's flower too.
 

nanook

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>it would be odd if that certain something was the only thing to exist

It's an argument against solipsism but not against all of us being jokes.

The joke is that you always try to pull something off, but you are not in control since you don't know what you are doing and you are being done, for the most part. Why would something have to care so much about itself, as we worry about us, when that care appears to bear so little fruit? When our best fruit appear to grow despite our involvement, not because of it. Why do you have to worry so much about whether you will 'make' it, if everything you have ever 'accomplished' was really a gift granted to you? But you have to worry, compulsively.

But those are apparently impressions created by a limited mind that can not hold the paradoxes that are involved in how cognition works. If we try to understand it, we will only invent a bullshit version of reality. A caricature.

The ego, including this limitation, is therefore bound to be a joke upon itself, and the cultural story of how you should live your life is taking that joke to the extreme and into nasty double binds.

The more popular a cultural meme is, the more likely it is a manifestation of the weakest minds who are least capable of holding a paradox gracefully.

I'm thinking of memes like you just have to be confident. the guru of the profile neurotics suggests: "Try really really hard to look as if you are not even trying and if you manage to bullshit yourself to that effect, don't even be proud about it, be grateful." and the student of profile neurotic replies: "thank you for this touching motivational speech, i have found myself in it, i have found my mission, i must bullshit myself, it will make me so happy, if i pull it off, this is the true path to happiness, this is my purpose in life"

oh yeah? who is trying to make himself believe that he is living according to a mission? that has never happened.

and what good is all of that demanded confidence doing? it's designed to relieve your peers from the burden of compassion, that's all.

they are already cognitively overwhelmed by pulling their own shit together, because they try to achieve the impossible and they rightfully feel that it's impossible to help another person to achieve the impossible so it's best if everyone goes about his insane ambitions all by himself and never tries to involve anybody else into the drama and remains silent, when he realizes the folly, so as to not disturb the confidence of the other nutcases. they appear to have no concept of how empathy is something else entirely, because they have no concept of being naturally self accepting, which includes acceptance of needs and desires, including a need for help, for cooperation.


nevertheless, i find a conceptualisation of the self useful, as imperfect as it is, i think concepts that are based in visualisation of quasi organic psychological structure are superior to stories that describe particular processes as if they stand out in importance, in comparison to all other processes that are involved, as if they were autonomous.
 

Cognisant

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Great rant.

I think it's a healthy thing to remember the mind is not "in charge" of the body rather it is the body that has created the mind for its own benefit, that we are hostages of biology forced to labour on behalf of the human species, in short we were never meant to be happy, we're meant to strive whether we want to succeed or not.

Suicide is the only sane option but selectivity works against it.
 

Cherry Cola

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When I think about my life, I feel that somebody's got to be putting me on. Somewhere along the line I bought into some story I was told and that story is only a product of the imagination.

I am a person. My time is limited. I just happened to be born at a time when suddenly all the information you could ever need is easily available.


What's more, I've been born into a position that I was not designed for. Evolution designed us for a certain kind of life, and I just happened to be born at a time when the world changed dramatically, and as a result I have to bust my ass just to live a normal life. That last piece is probably the most obvious, and it speaks more to the dogma of the western world. And that dogma is so deeply engrained in us that we will never be separate from it.

But I'm not talking only about the western cultural delusion (at least I think not). I mean to speak to more fundamental issues, such as the belief that I am a "person".

Here's the story: this is life. You are a person. You have preferences, difficulties, peers. You were born in a time when the world was on the brink of a technological singularity, an advancement of unimaginably epic proportions. [crossed out because it might paint the wrong picture]

I simply do not believe that story. Not any of it.


I think that's more a reflection of the human tendency to make up stories about our experiences. We must have some way to work with the world, and this story-constructing machine is it (and this speaks to the value of religion/mythology... and even TV). We all inherited more or less the same story and we expand upon it. But I cannot bring myself to believe it anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

Part of the underlying narrative you're talking about is that you're special, you have a purpose and you matter, that's necessary for survival. But it also makes it easy to commit the fallacy of applying that inherent narcissism unto ones conception of the world. You're here at this particular moment with access to all this stuff, and since you experience things like purpose surely that can't all be random.

Not to say I don't get a similar feeling and get all dizzy sometimes :O
 

OrLevitate

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I'm intrinsically luminous, mortals. I'm 4ever
When I think about my life, I feel that somebody's got to be putting me on. Somewhere along the line I bought into some story I was told and that story is only a product of the imagination.

I am a person. My time is limited. I just happened to be born at a time when suddenly all the information you could ever need is easily available.

What's more, I've been born into a position that I was not designed for. Evolution designed us for a certain kind of life, and I just happened to be born at a time when the world changed dramatically, and as a result I have to bust my ass just to live a normal life. That last piece is probably the most obvious, and it speaks more to the dogma of the western world. And that dogma is so deeply engrained in us that we will never be separate from it.

But I'm not talking only about the western cultural delusion (at least I think not). I mean to speak to more fundamental issues, such as the belief that I am a "person".

Here's the story: this is life. You are a person. You have preferences, difficulties, peers. You were born in a time when the world was on the brink of a technological singularity, an advancement of unimaginably epic proportions. [crossed out because it might paint the wrong picture]

I simply do not believe that story. Not any of it.


I think that's more a reflection of the human tendency to make up stories about our experiences. We must have some way to work with the world, and this story-constructing machine is it (and this speaks to the value of religion/mythology... and even TV). We all inherited more or less the same story and we expand upon it. But I cannot bring myself to believe it anymore.

So it's like you have to try just to give in to this belief that everyone else has. Because perhaps you have a good sense of sense, and you realize that nothing is ultimately true, and you see all these people walking around and look down at them, unsettled, with slight confusion and contempt. How can they be so unquestioning? How can that guy work so hard for so little actual reward? How can this lifestyle be so easily repeated in so many others?
I think most people are pretty much constantly distracting themselves from pondering the sort of thing you're pondering. Work being the main distraction.
One other option is that they took your line of reasoning down to a place or for a long enough time that they figured nothing at all was believable and they're going to do their best to construct a believable framework for their existence. This could be said to be a more sensible approach, although part of constructing such would probably optimally include remembering the aforementioned. The common frameworks being just that, the common ones. Whatever the majority's framework is, which I think a couple of would be to become a good mother or father, or good provider, or contribute to society or something, but I think the main variable determining such "best framework in an unreal world" is heeding your emotions, for the majority. Prime one being feeling a sense of belonging.

I empathize with what I perceive you're perceiving, especially when looking at a plan for my life, or when encountering certain behaviors in others. The worst for me is the people that have so forgotten this sense that I think you're talking about, in order to feel they belong probably, which conversely, due to them having lost all notion of the dreamy nature of reality, makes me feel like I don't belong :(. They're like p-zombies! That persona is losing prevalence though, I think. It's mainly just in old people.

Somewhere along the line I bought into some story I was told and that story is only a product of the imagination.
i like this.

Depersonalization disorder relevant topic 4 thred.
 

Absurdity

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Probably pointing out the obvious here but Camus' essay "The Myth of Sisyphus" seems relevant to what you're talking about.

The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor.

If one believes Homer, Sisyphus was the wisest and most prudent of mortals. According to another tradition, however, he was disposed to practice the profession of highwayman. I see no contradiction in this. Opinions differ as to the reasons why he became the futile laborer of the underworld. To begin with, he is accused of a certain levity in regard to the gods. He stole their secrets. Aegina, the daughter of Aesopus, was carried off by Jupiter. The father was shocked by that disappearance and complained to Sisyphus. He, who knew of the abduction, offered to tell about it on condition that Aesopus would give water to the citadel of Corinth. To the celestial thunderbolts he preferred the benediction of water. He was punished for this in the underworld. Homer tells us also that Sisyphus had put Death in chains. Pluto could not endure the sight of his deserted, silent empire. He dispatched the god of war, who liberated Death from the hands of the conqueror.

It is said also that Sisyphus, being near to death, rashly wanted to test his wife's love. He ordered her to cast his unburied body into the middle of the public square. Sisyphus woke up in the underworld. And there, annoyed by an obedience so contrary to human love, he obtained from Pluto permission to return to earth in order to chastise his wife. But when he had seen again the face of this world, enjoyed water and sun, warm stones and the sea, he no longer wanted to go back to the infernal darkness. Recalls, signs of anger, warnings were of no avail. Many years more he lived facing the curve of the gulf, the sparkling sea, and the smiles of the earth. A decree of the gods was necessary. Mercury came and seized the impudent man by the collar and, snatching him from his joys, led him forcibly back to the underworld, where his rock was ready for him.

You have already grasped that Sisyphus is the absurd hero. He is,as much through his passions as through his torture. His scorn of the gods, his hatred of death, and his passion for life won him that unspeakable penalty in which the whole being is exerted toward accomplishing nothing. This is the price that must be paid for the passions of this earth. Nothing is told us about Sisyphus in the underworld. Myths are made for the imagination to breathe life into them. As for this myth, one sees merely the whole effort of a body straining to raise the huge stone, to roll it and push it up a slope a hundred times over; one sees the face screwed up, the cheek tight against the stone, the shoulder bracing the clay-covered mass, the foot wedging it, the fresh start with arms outstretched, the wholly human security of two earth-clotted hands. At the very end of his long effort measured by skyless space and time without depth, the purpose is achieved. Then Sisyphus watches the stone rush down in a few moments toward that lower world whence he will have to push it up again toward the summit. He goes back down to the plain. It is during that return, that pause, that Sisyphus interests me. A face that toils so close to stones is already stone itself! I see that man going back down with a heavy yet measured step toward the torment of which he will never know the end. That hour like a breathing-space which returns as surely as his suffering, that is the hour of consciousness. At each of those moments when he leaves the heights and gradually sinks toward the lairs of the gods, he is superior to his fate. He is stronger than his rock.

If this myth is tragic, that is because its hero is conscious. Where would his torture be, indeed, if at every step the hope of succeeding upheld him? The workman of today works every day in his life at the same tasks, and this fate is no less absurd. But it is tragic only at the rare moments when it becomes conscious. Sisyphus, proletarian of the gods, powerless and rebellious, knows the whole extent of his wretched condition: it is what he thinks of during his descent. The lucidity that was to constitute his torture at the same time crowns his victory. There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.

If the descent is thus sometimes performed in sorrow, it can also take place in joy. This word is not too much. Again I fancy Sisyphus returning toward his rock, and th sorrow was in the beginning. When the images of earth cling too tightly to memory, when the call of happiness becomes too insistent, it happens that melancholy rises in man's heart: this is the rock's victory, this is the rock itself. The boundless grief is too heavy to bear. These are our nights of Gethsemane. But crushing truths perish from being acknowledged. Thus, Oedipus at the outset obeys fate without knowing it. But from the moment he knows, his tragedy begins. Yet at the same time, blind and desperate, he realizes that the only bond linking him to the world is the cool hand of a girl. Then a tremendous remark rings out: "Despite so many ordeals, my advanced age and the nobility of my soul make me conclude that all is well." Sophocles' Oedipus, like Dostoevsky's Kirilov, thus gives the recipe for the absurd victory. Ancient wisdom confirms modern heroism.

One does not discover the absurd without attempting to write a manual of happiness. "What! by such narrow ways--?" There is but one world, however. Happiness and the absurd are two sons of the same earth. They are inseparable. It would be a mistake to say that happiness necessarily springs from the absurd discovery. It happens as well that the feeling of the absurd springs from happiness. "I conclude that all is well," says Oedipus, and that remark is sacred. It echoes in the wild and limited universe of man. It teaches that all is not, has not been, exhausted. It drives out of this world a god who had come into it with dissatisfaction and a preference for futile sufferings. It makes of fate a human matter, which must be settled among men.

All Sisyphus' silent joy is contained therein. His fate belongs to him. His rock is his thing. Likewise, the absurd man, when he contemplates his torment, silences all the idols. In the universe suddenly restored to silence, the myriad wondering little voices of the earth rise up. Unconscious, secret calls, invitations from all the faces, they are the necessary reverse and price of victory. There is no sun without shadow, and it is essential to know the night. The absurd man says yes and his effort will henceforth be unceasing. If there is a personal fate, there is no higher destiny, or at least there is but one which he concludes is inevitable and despicable. For the rest, he knows himself to be the master of his days. At that subtle moment when man glances backward over his life, Sisyphus returning toward his rock, in that silent pivoting he contemplates that series of unrelated actions which becomes his fate, created by him, combined under his memory's eye and soon sealed by his death. Thus, convinced of the wholly human origin of all that is human, a blind man eager to see who knows that the night has no end, he is still on the go. The rock is still rolling.

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
 

doncarlzone

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Reluctantly

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Do you find something though when you stop believing, when you remove everything? Something that's perhaps more real, more you, then what reality suggests you are and paints you as. Or just confusion or absence of anything? Something else?
 

Yellow

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I simply do not believe that story. Not any of it.

As someone who read Daniel Quinn's books early in life, this concern seems a little familiar (or perhaps I'm just assuming).

I think humans construct culture (in the most encompassing and invasive definition of the word) and culture constructs people. It is hard to see or think without the filters created by the stories of our culture. It is healthy to question them.

Rejecting all of them at once may be a good way to examine them critically. But, just because something is fluid, subjective, or entirely fabricated by a collective, that doesn't necessarily make it "false" or "wrong" (or "true" or "right" for that matter).

I'm not sure if that makes sense. I just know that when rejecting assumptions, we can occasionally be guilty of replacing them with equally flawed assumptions and that leads to a lot of back-tracking.
 

Jennywocky

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^^ I don't believe in this post.
... or, rather, I don't believe Higs said what is being quoted. ;)
 

Yellow

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^^ I don't believe in this post.
... or, rather, I don't believe Higs said what is being quoted. ;)
I don't even know how I did that. Well, if I fix it now, your post won't make sense, so I suppose we're stuck with the mistake. Sorry Higs and sorry J-man, but, you know, all INTPs look alike...
 

The Introvert

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Perhaps an unnecessary honing-in on semantics, but you mentioned a keyword to me, being an evolutionary biologist:

"Evolution designed us for a certain kind of life, and I just happened to be born at a time when the world changed dramatically, and as a result I have to bust my ass just to live a normal life."
Consider this: your evolution up to this point (and for all life) is a construct of your (spoken through your ancestors) work on your environment. That is to say, we co-evolve with the system we make; the changes we make ultimately define the prosperity of our offspring, and so on, meaning that life quite literally controls its own destiny. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

With that in mind, to suggest that you must work any harder than anyone else has in the history of life seems to me to be uncharacteristically thoughtless, especially on an INTP forum. Difficulty is relative, as is prosperity. Evolution has designed you to be exactly where you are right now, or to say it more accurately, you are exactly where evolution has dropped you off. To suggest that you are an anomaly would be both selfish and foolish.
 

OrLevitate

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to suggest that you must work any harder than anyone else

I think this probs misconception. What I took from his talk of busting ass was the realization that we're supposedly apex predators but for example bonobo monkeys just sit around, pick fruits, and have sex, while we all stress out, bust ass, rush, etc. You can get into scrutinizing the quality of life of a bonobo but the gist is that we could easily create a way of independently sustaining ourselves with 0 work required so it's initially really unsettling.

Comes down to humanity creating like 99% of it's problems, psychological evolution taking precedence over the physical in this phase of our existence, ever since consciousness. The propensity for any sort of harm from others is the cornerstone of the adverserial darwinian framework upon which at becoming conscious organisms it's incumbent upon us to transcend the darwinian perspective (even though technically it's just a psychological version of darwinian perspective) because it's best for the collective organism to be harmonious rather than adverserial like what if your arm hated your brain and wouldn't listen and hit ur balls all the time?

but the all or nothing nature of the change required keeps us from achieving that utopian perfection although you can observe the will to do so by a larger and larger portion of the population thanks to education etc.
 

StevenM

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I don't even know how I did that. Well, if I fix it now, your post won't make sense, so I suppose we're stuck with the mistake. Sorry Higs and sorry J-man, but, you know, all INTPs look alike...

Don't worry, I do that all the time. :cat:
 

The Introvert

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I think this probs misconception. What I took from his talk of busting ass was the realization that we're supposedly apex predators but for example bonobo monkeys just sit around, pick fruits, and have sex, while we all stress out, bust ass, rush, etc.

Perhaps I did misunderstand his intent.

But my point still remains: difficulty of life is relative.

And, on another note, using this example would be an anomaly of evolution. In fact, a system in which all individuals can survive and reproduce in equal proportions shouldn't be influenced by selection. So, either this system doesn't exist (probably the case) or in reality, you (or OP, or whoever) are/is confusing objective difficulty (doesn't exist) with relative difficulty.

Think of it this way: I could say, "bacteria have the life. All they do all day is sit around and perform low-energy transformations to survive." When in reality a few atoms of Nitrogen could mean the difference between life and death in a bacterium, or a gust of wind. Of course, what bacteria do is really easy to us, because we are much more capable than a bacterium... but only because we have evolved to be more capable. Does that make sense?
 

OrLevitate

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Perhaps I did misunderstand his intent.

But my point still remains: difficulty of life is relative.

And, on another note, using this example would be an anomaly of evolution. In fact, a system in which all individuals can survive and reproduce in equal proportions shouldn't be influenced by selection. So, either this system doesn't exist (probably the case) or in reality, you (or OP, or whoever) are/is confusing objective difficulty (doesn't exist) with relative difficulty.

Think of it this way: I could say, "bacteria have the life. All they do all day is sit around and perform low-energy transformations to survive." When in reality a few atoms of Nitrogen could mean the difference between life and death in a bacterium, or a gust of wind. Of course, what bacteria do is really easy to us, because we are much more capable than a bacterium... but only because we have evolved to be more capable. Does that make sense?

ya i get what you're saying, it makes sense. my possibly incorrect paraphrasing of it would be: tuff for ant to lift toilet paper, easy for us. That might not translate so directly but I do get what you're saying.

But, there's no claim of objectivity in either my or his stuff. It's still very relative. Our PERCEPTION of the circumstances of the bonobo, for example, is being used as a benchmark. What you seem to suggest is that since we don't know how difficult they actually perceive it to be, we can't relate our circumstances to theirs. Which make sense, along a sondering point of view in which we can't actually know what it's like for anyone/animal else.
To better illustrate the middle man in our two ideas (as i understand it): Eliminate the existence of other animals in this framework, and only relate circumstances to possible circumstances. It's possible to go total farm-o-tron in world-wide peacefully anarchical independence, but we don't do it. It's initially like, "wtf? Why is everyone working so hard at jobs they'd rather not be at, don't they realize their existence?" and I think that's what OP was getting at, which I empathize with, and which I think the [humanity creating their own problems] is the instigatorial (sounds legit right?) origin of why people sacrifice their wondrous gift of existence for leading lives they'd rather not live [cuz the necessity of the competing dynamic] which, now I'm going a little further than what I said in last post, gets concreted in ppls minds over time (the paradigm) and it's lame and retarded but necessary or something.

also i think humanity has stockholm syndrome for conflict. Through conflict, we progress, we grow, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, it's dog eat dog so go be a dog, chimpanzees [very aggressive species] are our closest genetic relative but they're actually not, etc. I think it's just a coping mechanism, and we'd be plenty fulfilled and capable of growing without all the bullshit.
 

J-man

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With that in mind, to suggest that you must work any harder than anyone else has in the history of life seems to me to be uncharacteristically thoughtless, especially on an INTP forum. Difficulty is relative, as is prosperity. Evolution has designed you to be exactly where you are right now, or to say it more accurately, you are exactly where evolution has dropped you off. To suggest that you are an anomaly would be both selfish and foolish.
I'm speaking to the changes in our recent (ish) history that we have not adapted to. I wouldn't say that monkeys, for example, don't struggle, but that they mostly face the struggle they were designed for. My understanding is that the reason we in the western world are so neurotic is that we are out of our element. That said, this is all tangential to the point I was originally trying to make, so I won't drag it out further.

Along the lines of my original point... I was riding home from a bar the other day, watching the trees and power lines and houses go by, and I thought to myself, "This is all a joke. Somebody put this all here to play a joke on us." That's not to imply that the houses weren't built by people, nor that trees didn't grow organically. Maybe somewhere deep inside I believe existence really was created by "somebody" as a way of making a statement to us, and if so, maybe that's just a reflection of the way an ape mind functions. Maybe.

On the other hand, houses are a statement. A statement made by people. Maybe power lines are too, and roads... It is our nature to want to appear powerful in one way or another, and homes definitely reflect that (e.g. big tall entranceways, well kept lawns). It's probably deeper than we realize. Everywhere you turn in this world, there's somebody's agenda, even if it's just to influence people's opinion of them. And it works; we have profound influence on each other's mind.
 

nanook

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let's consider a healthy dose of racism? i mean, many people believe that this civilisation was created by martians. who came to earth in the times of atlantis and procreated with the other people, who came from venus. or is it about chimps and bonobos?

some mythology to symbolize the struggle between left and right brain?

or maybe people are just very different from each other, due to random factors and due to development.

and our artifacts are a statement, alright, but they are also often a big compromise. the lowest common denominator. who is that guy? tasteless motherfucker.
 

J-man

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let's consider a healthy dose of racism? i mean, many people believe that this civilisation was created by martians. who came to earth in the times of atlantis and procreated with the other people, who came from venus. or is it about chimps and bonobos?

some mythology to symbolize the struggle between left and right brain?

or maybe people are just very different from each other, due to random factors and due to development.

and our artifacts are a statement, alright, but they are also often a big compromise. the lowest common denominator. who is that guy? tasteless motherfucker.
I'm confused what you meant by "let's consider a healthy dose of racism?"

Also, I've been wondering, do you have pretty good idea what your type is yet, Nanook?
 

nanook

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you say we are out of our enviroment. but we have created that enivornment. unless we are not we, but different kinds of we. like reptilian shape shifters over here, emigrants from venus over there. i'm not talking about skin colors or nationalities, but the people who have designed the school system i went to desigend it for a different speices than my own. i think it's healthy to see things as they are. unifying abstract concepts like "humanity" are cute and handy, but abstractions aren't real. we are each one of a kind as benjamin smythe (youtube guru) likes to say. nobody has to keep track of what kinds are out there (even though typology is so much fun), but it's more than one kind.

i've been having a ton of good ideas of what my type is for a decade but i'm past the point where i can naively believe in my own thoughts. the mind creates definitions, continues to perceives through those definitions, sees what it expects to see. i can be every type that i define in such a way that it suits my data. i can not have all data about all humans, which is required to put the puzzle together. but i'm still collecting.

ps: if it's not obvious, i do not believe in reptilian shape shifters, i'm just playing with intuitions. people tend to ask about your type, when you begin to talk about aliens, lol.
 

ASquare183

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Our perception and knowledge of the world seems like a paradox because it is. I forgot what the paradox is called, but it has to do with self-referencing and relative perception. Basically, we need reference points outside of the universe in order to understand the universe. At least that's what the conjecture suggests.
 
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