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I like hard to get girls, why?

redbaron

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#51
2. i'm not ignoring context.
The context given is that going to and enjoying your time at a venue should be motivated by more than the singular purpose of sex. Which is ultimately a shallow and unfulfilling means of interpersonal relations.

If your only goal is sex, that your enjoyment is defined by whether or not you achieve the goal (to have sex), then honestly that is pathetic.
 
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#52
The context given is that going to and enjoying your time at a venue should be motivated by more than the singular purpose of sex. Which is ultimately a shallow and unfulfilling means of interpersonal relations.

If your only goal is sex, that your enjoyment is defined by whether or not you achieve the goal (to have sex), then honestly that is pathetic.
if the context is a moral imperative then there's not much room for discussion.

also the moral imperative in question seems very dubious. if you want sex right now, and someone else does too, then why not just go ahead and do it? i do believe genuine love (as in: a mode of affection which would promote family values, healthy child rearing, natural joy etc.) in casual sex is very rare, and casual sex is not something i want but it's not despiccable. that is unless you're ignoring context; the unnatural (shallow and unfulfilling) structure of all civil interaction.

still it's unclear to me whether you criticize the instrumental inefficacy or the goal itself. it leans toward the latter. what makes this particular goal so erroneous, compared to the other sick stuff society demands and allows?

let me assure you i'm not a very Laid guy and i don't ever attend clubs so there should be no hard feelings. maybe there aren't, but i can't see any other purpose behind the word "pathetic" than to signal distress.
 

Latte

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#53
1. i'm not shooting anyone down.

2. i'm not ignoring context. my question applies to many contexts, this one included.
If you're not shooting someone down, then why are you not inquiring as to the intent or presenting a fleshed out illustration of another way of looking at things instead of replying snarkily to a small dash of paint in a larger picture?

Shooting someone down isn't necessarily a bad thing, but don't pretend you didn't do it :3

Sidenote: The wording lends itself only to the communicated conclusion that guys who do what was described are pathetic, not that that in itself is more than a symptom indicating a larger "pathetic" mentality.

Anyhow, yes. Using words like "pathetic" is not conducive to aiding anyone in understanding the perspective which paints the single minded pursuit of sexual interaction in a bar environment to be both less fruitful when it comes to general life enjoyment and counterproductive when it comes to attracting sexual partners.

A bar, and life in general, usually has many aspects in every situation to indulge in, nurture and enjoy. People who have multiple sources of enjoyment from situations and feel engaged in multiple aspects of them usually tend to be happier and also seen as more attractive and competent minds.

It's not even an every egg in one basket thing. It's more about whether one has one basket with one egg, or multiple basket with one egg in each that become larger and better tasting in each other's presence.
 
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#54
If you're not shooting someone down, then why are you not inquiring as to the intent or presenting a fleshed out illustration of another way of looking at things instead of replying snarkily to a small dash of paint in a larger picture?

Shooting someone down isn't necessarily a bad thing, but don't pretend you didn't do it .
i wasn't even firing.

just asking about the leering bit. it's something that's occupied me a lot since, being a sociophobe, i've previously tried to avoid goading but have concluded that a sensible amount of visual examination probably appears less conspicuous. i do recognize that red barons mention of this particular subject was just part of a characterization and perhaps ostensibly relevant. a minor sidetrack was all i aimed for. now a deeper question has emerged and that's fine by me but i assure you tKhere was no hostility intended with my first comment.

so, i simply wanted to know red barons opinion on leering and diverting and which more blatantly displays insecurity or the like. maybe i did poorly in getting that across.
 

redbaron

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#55
Okay, this is kind of irritating, as I've already expressly stated the context of my argument, and you're really doing an outstanding job of highlighting exactly my point of people being dumb enough to create arguments by ignoring context just for the sake of making a (seemingly) debate out of things that they don't need to.

Anyway, I'll state it again, just to clarify:

Enjoying your time at a venue should be motivated by more than the singular purpose of sex.
Do you disagree that it is a less than realistic and/or healty to go to a venue, with the express purpose of finding someone who will have sex with you? If you do, then feel free to state your reasons and I'd be happy to discuss the issue, to go into detail and delve into the issue of meaningful interpersonal communication and relationships. I'd actually love to do that, but at the moment it seems like you're just agonizing over the usage of the word, 'pathetic'.

Just to clarify, a definition of pathetic:

Pathetic - Adjective
having a capacity to move one to either compassionate or contemptuous pity

Watching people like this, who derive self-worth from, 'hooking up' and their 'successes' in manipulating others into sex, is by definition, pathetic to me.

Anyway I'm not interested in arguing semantics any further, it's boring and...pathetic. Like I said, I'm fine with you disagreeing and offering an alternate opinion (similar to what Latte is saying). If you want to do that, then speak plainly and give your opinion. You're asking me questions that are just irrelevant and silly right now.
 
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#56
"hooking up for the sake of it is sick"

that i concur with.

"hooking up for the sake of it is evil"

that is not true.

which one is it? you can answer in plain binary if that saves you some time. the word pathetic ascribes moral responsibility and guilt precisely because it implies contempt. this is not "semantics" in any diminutive sense.

visiting a social gathering just to get laid is probably à symptom of weakness but does not deserve hatred.
 
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#57
as said you're possibly the one ignoring context since your singling out of this phenomenon as perverted ignores the perversion of all civil conduct. institutional means of interaction are not natural and we, collectively, do not know our best. one should blame with caution.
 

ObliviousGenius

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#58
Just going to point out that there's a reason, which is that the guys who are 'chasing women' are always the desperate ones.

If you go out it should be to have a good time, which shouldn't necessarily entail hooking up. The guys who go out to try and get laid are just pathetic, and coincidentally it's almost like they have a beacon on their head, and women nearly always turn them away (probably to do with the way they leer at every hot girl that passes them by, which is noticed by more people than they realise).

Usually the people who hook up at clubs aren't even really trying that hard, they're just doing their thing. Which has a dual-effect, people see them around the venue, talking to different people, laughing, dancing and having fun.

Anyway just pointing out that not everyone goes to clubs for the sole purpose of chasing around women, which was probably her point, that those guys who are there just trying to get into her pants are dull/pathetic. Not that there's no intellectually stimulating people at clubs at all.

Of course, I should have expected that a bunch of INTP's would be dumb enough to ignore context in order to have the opportunity to try and shoot down someone else's argument.
Don't make the mistake of believing that extra effort to get laid=bad game/desperation. It's all about a subtle swagger and attitude. No one is going to get laid going around the club asking every pretty girl if she wants to go home. Besides, most of the time it doesn't go down until a few days later after texting and flirting anyway. It's a little more advanced than that simplistic explanation you just gave. I also don't see how a guy specifically trying to get laid is any different from one "doing his own thing". That sounds like one person to me. If he's trying to get laid he'd better do all that's necessary to do so (mingling, dancing, etc). I don't know why you're separating these two types of guys.
 

redbaron

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#59
"hooking up for the sake of it is sick"

that i concur with.

"hooking up for the sake of it is evil"

that is not true.

which one is it? you can answer in plain binary if that saves you some time. the word pathetic ascribes moral responsibility and guilt precisely because it implies contempt. this is not "semantics" in any diminutive sense.

visiting a social gathering just to get laid is probably à symptom of weakness but does not deserve hatred.
Uh, false dichotomy.

It's neither sick nor evil, it's pathetic. Honestly you're trolling right now aren't you. I am loathe to believe that even after explicitly stating the context, and then defining the exact word for the behaviour, you still manage to (miraculously) not respond in context.

Hatred?! What? Where the hell do you interpret hatred?

I don't know about you but when I express hatred it's generally a little more crass than, 'pathetic'.

Honestly I can't help but laugh right now. I am so confused as to how you can misunderstand THAT much, I really don't know how to explain it any better. Perhaps this is a failing on my part.
 

SpaceYeti

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#60
visiting a social gathering just to get laid is probably à symptom of weakness but does not deserve hatred.
What makes someone who goes to a party to get laid suddenly somehow weak? In what way? You may dislike it, sure, but there's nothing innately wrong with it. You're effectively saying the way they spend their free time is less valid an option than you would do. How do you justify this?
 
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#61
Uh, false dichotomy.

It's neither sick nor evil, it's pathetic. Honestly you're trolling right now aren't you. I am loathe to believe that even after explicitly stating the context, and then defining the exact word for the behaviour, you still manage to (miraculously) not respond in context.

Hatred?! What? Where the hell do you interpret hatred?

I don't know about you but when I express hatred it's generally a little more crass than, 'pathetic'.

Honestly I can't help but laugh right now. I am so confused as to how you can misunderstand THAT much, I really don't know how to explain it any better. Perhaps this is a failing on my part.
no dichotomy. the latter pretty much implies the former: either you make the observation that this behavior is sub-optimal, or you do and furthermore conclude that it is to blame for other things being sub-optimal as well. surely evil must be understood as encompassing sickness?

saying "it's pathetic" doesn't answer the question because "pathetic", while clearly implying some sort of contempt, could be simply an expression of strong affect as well as a factual expression of your moral beliefs regarding these people. please answer: do you think these people are guilty or do they just kinda piss you off somehow?
 
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#62
What makes someone who goes to a party to get laid suddenly somehow weak? In what way? You may dislike it, sure, but there's nothing innately wrong with it. You're effectively saying the way they spend their free time is less valid an option than you would do. How do you justify this?
i would suspect that it correlates with undesirable personality traits, unhappiness, insecurity, low self-esteem, histrionicism, narcissism, etc. there's no absolute correlation and probably no causation. and i don't dislike the people in question. red baron seems to, though, and with a passion. calling this behavior sick was mainly a tactical concession but it failed.

like it or not, strength/health is partly about self-sufficiency and functioning cognitive routine. depending on external validation from strangers and engaging in useless sexual activity indicates the opposite.

that cleared things up or still problematic, you think?
 

SpaceYeti

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#63
i would suspect that it correlates with undesirable personality traits, unhappiness, insecurity, low self-esteem, histrionicism, narcissism, etc. there's no absolute correlation and probably no causation. and i don't dislike the people in question. red baron seems to, though, and with a passion. calling this behavior sick was mainly a tactical concession but it failed.

like it or not, strength/health is partly about self-sufficiency and functioning cognitive routine. depending on external validation from strangers and engaging in useless sexual activity indicates the opposite.

that cleared things up or still problematic, you think?
Evolutionarily speaking, at least, it's about making viable offspring, and that's it.
 

BloodCountess88

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#65
To be fair, what would an intellectually stimulating individual be doing at a club?

Do you suppose that, if there was actually a "stimulating individual" there, they would have readily identified YOU?


Also, I like hard to get girls, when I finally get them. Or else I don't like it.
Well, for one, dancing. Wouldn't intellectually stimulating people like to dance? Some do, what do YOU do at a club? The reason I went there was because I stopped dancing competitively and taking multiple classes. I missed it, I wanted to dance with other people.

Exactly what do you do at a club to identify someone who's intellectually stimulating? Do they dance differently? Are they reading Plato while sipping a martini? Clubs aren't for intellectual discussion, dude. I mean, I've never met an intellectually stimulating person in the bathroom... I also don't go to the bathroom to talk, though.

You assholes get off your high horses.
No high horse, never discredit the ability to find intellectual stimulation in a LONG line at the women's bathroom, I've met amazing witty women there... One's gotta do something while waiting.

U don't like clubs becoz u don't know the rules, it's the same as school... once you know the rules, it becomes really fun to go and kiss around, pick up the horny sexy girls.. U might get addicted though.

Your biaised thinking makes me laugh... People don't go in clubs to talk about Napoleon or Einstein, it's not relevant. Perhaps do you know one " socially normal" girl who has never been in club? Well, u see... u can find about evrhting in a club, from the dumbest to the most intelligent; in some clubs youll find even highly educated people(but many times they are limited in fun by their higher status); it depends were you go.


Also I don't think it's necessary to reduce INTP's to solely "intellectual stimulation" seekers; If I want some intellectual stimulation- experience taught me that I wont find it around me or in normal people; they are not interested - so I go to intellectual clubs/fora(philosophy cafes, psychology club, INTP forum,...etc) where we discuss some interesting topics.
I believe INTPs are so much more than nerds, let's not let our entourage define our boundaries...
MMmhm I'm an above average looking girl, I'm pretty sure I don't "play" the game but rather the "game" comes to me.

Regarding what to do in a club, I never understood how it can become such a complex social scene. Drinks + music + dance floor, one can make a logical assumption that one goes there to dance. Not to pick up some piece of ass.

My comment was a personal observation, after going to a club, giving my number to guys that I had a good dance with/ had fun with and then going through the dating process in the end they all turned out not be intellectually stimulating. Which for me, it was disappointing.

Biased opinion? Yes. We are ALL giving our biased opinion, out perspective is very different therefore the information gathered and it's processing is different. Would you say your POV is unbiased?

Just going to point out that there's a reason, which is that the guys who are 'chasing women' are always the desperate ones.

If you go out it should be to have a good time, which shouldn't necessarily entail hooking up. The guys who go out to try and get laid are just pathetic, and coincidentally it's almost like they have a beacon on their head, and women nearly always turn them away (probably to do with the way they leer at every hot girl that passes them by, which is noticed by more people than they realise).

Usually the people who hook up at clubs aren't even really trying that hard, they're just doing their thing. Which has a dual-effect, people see them around the venue, talking to different people, laughing, dancing and having fun.

Anyway just pointing out that not everyone goes to clubs for the sole purpose of chasing around women, which was probably her point, that those guys who are there just trying to get into her pants are dull/pathetic. Not that there's no intellectually stimulating people at clubs at all.

Of course, I should have expected that a bunch of INTP's would be dumb enough to ignore context in order to have the opportunity to try and shoot down someone else's argument.

Actually, this was the main issue why I stopped going to clubs. You won't believe the number of people approaching a selected group of "hot girls". And I am sure many of them took my lack of interest as some kind of challenge. Their behavior in the situation did read as desperation, and their insistence actually frightened me at points.

I'm sure there were intellectually stimulating people the times I went to clubs, however, the ones that approached me certainly seemed to want to just "get in my pants", and after going out with them in the aftermath it became clear. Which, as a single woman was a bit dissapointing. I'd like to have a fun conversation before I have sex, is that so much to expect? Perhaps. It doesn't have to be THAT intellectual either (My husband ended up to be one you wouldn't consider intellectual, but rather a very engaging and witty ENFP) anything other than my boobs being huge and what you want to do with them.

Notice that I go to metal concerts and and frequent ballroom halls and I have found plenty of intellectually stimulating people in such scenarios. Have I met people there looking to get laid at concerts? Yes, but the rations seemed to be a lot more balanced.


Could they just like my moves at clubs? Sure. It was just my experience.
 

redbaron

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#66
do you think these people are guilty or do they just kinda piss you off somehow?
I feel like I must be speaking Russian or something...

I don't think they're guilty at all, they're free to be however they want. Though I think they're going about interpersonal satisfaction the wrong way if all they do is chase women. Yet everyone is different, perhaps these people are content with themselves? Something indicates otherwise from my perspective though.

It also doesn't make me angry, as previously stated I'm happy for people to act in accordance with however they want.

Though as BloodCountess has elaborated on, these people are often manipulative and obsessed with their goal. I don't think there's anything inherently sick about it, and in time I think most people learn how best they personally find value and satisfaction in their interpersonal relations.

So, to answer yet another false dichotomy, I don't think they're guilty and it doesn't piss me off, I just think they're pathetic - as in it evokes some measure of pity seeing the types of people BloodCountess has described.

To be honest, I'm answering because I think you are trying to make an effort to be reasonable and respectful, but I'm a little tired of the, 'either or' dichotomies.
 
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#67
Are girls hard to get?

Is a safe hard to open?

Not for someone with the combination.

So figure out the combination.

Given INTP's love of puzzles, it would seem that INTP's could be become the most prolific procreators of humanity.

Nature counterbalances this by making them unsociable in general.

For similar reasons, God invented whisky to keep the Irish from taking over the world.
 
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#68
I thought clubs were places you went to get laid.

Honestly... are you telling me people go to these places purely to listen and dance to shit music at ear bleeding volumes, whilst paying 4 times the price for watered down beer? - On top of that, paying to actually enter the place... :rolleyes:
 
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#70
Apparently you're just not supposed to make it obvious.
Social taboo in a club - hilarious

The thought of going to a club to meet the potential girl of my dreams has tickled me somewhat.
I can only picture myself being surrounded by oompa-lumpa coloured woman pulling the duck face to iphones and ipads.
 
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#71
I feel like I must be speaking Russian or something...

I don't think they're guilty at all, they're free to be however they want. Though I think they're going about interpersonal satisfaction the wrong way if all they do is chase women. Yet everyone is different, perhaps these people are content with themselves? Something indicates otherwise from my perspective though.

It also doesn't make me angry, as previously stated I'm happy for people to act in accordance with however they want.

Though as BloodCountess has elaborated on, these people are often manipulative and obsessed with their goal. I don't think there's anything inherently sick about it, and in time I think most people learn how best they personally find value and satisfaction in their interpersonal relations.

So, to answer yet another false dichotomy, I don't think they're guilty and it doesn't piss me off, I just think they're pathetic - as in it evokes some measure of pity seeing the types of people BloodCountess has described.

To be honest, I'm answering because I think you are trying to make an effort to be reasonable and respectful, but I'm a little tired of the, 'either or' dichotomies.
we seem, most crucially, to be in disagreement on the definition of sickness. i didn't use it as a formal construct but only as the notion of "something systemically askew" or simply "unwell".

and yes, i am making such effort. i'm glad you are too, after all.

honestly i haven't understood the big deal about dichotomies. they're useful tools, (provided the definitions are clear and the simplification accepted as premise). never mind the fact that i didn't posit one! ;)
 

SpaceYeti

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#72
So figure out the combination.
First digit; Have a wiener.
Second digit; Don't be an ass.
Third digit, don't be physically repulsive.

It's the same for all of them. Except lesbians.
 

BloodCountess88

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#73
I thought clubs were places you went to get laid.

Honestly... are you telling me people go to these places purely to listen and dance to shit music at ear bleeding volumes, whilst paying 4 times the price for watered down beer? - On top of that, paying to actually enter the place... :rolleyes:
We can dance if we want to, some people really go there for dancing that's kind of the point of loud music and a dance floor.

It's the same when you go to a concert: You pay money to get in, overpriced water and beer to see the main act, and you get all the crappy openings along with it too. Main difference is you can't show up late and avoid them. Earplugs on both situations are a must.
 
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#74
We can dance if we want to, some people really go there for dancing that's kind of the point of loud music and a dance floor.

It's the same when you go to a concert: You pay money to get in, overpriced water and beer to see the main act, and you get all the crappy openings along with it too. Main difference is you can't show up late and avoid them. Earplugs on both situations are a must.
The main difference is you go to a concert to listen to live music. Dancing is a secondary feature depending on the genre. Try dancing to a classical orchestra for example - you get kicked out ^^.

Getting laid at a concert is also less likely than at a club.

also, this thesis might be interesting
 

BloodCountess88

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#75
The main difference is you go to a concert to listen to live music. Dancing is a secondary feature depending on the genre. Try dancing to a classical orchestra for example - you get kicked out ^^.

Getting laid at a concert is also less likely than at a club.

also, this thesis might be interesting
I personally separate my dancing with my concerts. I tend to nod and head bang to the music I listen to.

So it occurs often, I never questioned that, hence my previous quote. However, it does not invalidate that some people go there for the purpose of dancing (specially to dance halls) and that insistence after rejection often causes women to be intimidated.

Edit: Orchestra concerts do not have crappy opening cover bands, at least the ones that I have been to.
 
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#77
First digit; Have a wiener.
Second digit; Don't be an ass.
Third digit, don't be physically repulsive.

It's the same for all of them. Except lesbians.
I agree that it is simple. Just not THAT simple.

First of all, some people don't know how not to be an ass.

Second of all, some people don't know how to be confident without going overboard and appearing to be an ass.

Third, some people don't know how to soften or mitigate their physical deficits.
 

SpaceYeti

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#78
I agree that it is simple. Just not THAT simple.

First of all, some people don't know how not to be an ass.

Second of all, some people don't know how to be confident without going overboard and appearing to be an ass.

Third, some people don't know how to soften or mitigate their physical deficits.
Then, if they care, they should learn.
 

WALKYRIA

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#79
GREAT THREAD... ANYWAYS, ANOTHER QUESTION: WHY ARE WOMEN - IN CLUBS OR IN GENERAL - SO ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINIONS/ FEELINGZ?

I always wondered why girls seemed to have more "power" than men in clubs- they project that princess like superiority aura- ... but after few reflections it obviuosly seemed that the club being "the main modern meeting area" is specifically dezigned to meet women's and extroverts requirements of "a great night". We all know that girls- even the INTPs- are social beings, not because they like it, but because they uncounsciously feel physically and emotionally protected and secured by the group. I seriously don't think the group is worth my value ( there comes the INTP arrogance) many times; so I don't associate with the group because I see it as a hindrance for my future projects.

Anyways, I spent the best nights when I was out with heterogeneous( girls and boys) group of friends... and incindentely I was the most popular and got the highest quality of girls approaching me those nights. That time, I had the impression that my real value was fully recognized. While alone or with one or two friend... we get 90% of time the losing role; a role that we don't feel we deserve... hence the frustration and the sub-sequent harassment towards girls. ( But hey, I guess 99 % of girls are to self-centered to realize it... all they see is "men are annoying")


Groups of Men in clubs systematiclaly get the loser's place. While women get more value in clubs... because of the needy men validating me them .

I seriously think that " blind dates" are more appropriate for dudes and introverts... no approaching anxiety/ no games/ no lies/no manipulation.


We can dance if we want to, some people really go there for dancing that's kind of the point of loud music and a dance floor.
Do you even know the unconscious purpose of dance? Well... dance is like a preliminary of sexual act. It indicates the sexual viability of the partner.
I'm sure you- and many women- didnt even realize that "going out for the purpose of dancing" really translates as" going out for the sole purpose of screening for a viable male".
That is I think, pathetic.
GIRLS GO OUT TO MEET BOYS !!!!;)
 
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#81
U don't like clubs becoz u don't know the rules, it's the same as school... once you know the rules, it becomes really fun to go and kiss around, pick up the horny sexy girls.. U might get addicted though.
I highly doubt it's that easy for any INTP type person.

Then, if they care, they should learn.
Honestly, how do I learn to be confident?

Girls aren't hard to get, though. In fact, girls are generally very easy to get. How would being a clever(Ti), witty(Ti Ne), charming(Ne) INTP make girls difficult to get? All you have to do is drop the second guessing and start flirting. It's not a big mystery, or anything.
But it is a big mystery to me. I don't even know how to flirt, or how/where I'd start learning. Can you explain how they're "easy to get"?

I'm 24 and didn't go to college/uni so I might have missed all my opportunities to learn.
 
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