I feel like people these days have to be a scholar and a scientist before they become humans

[onesteptwostep]

I mean human in the species term and the humanistic term.

Like imagine what a child has to go through within our current pedagogic system. They have to master all these maths and history and the sciences before they reach sexual maturity, and they're bombarded with so much political noise and distortion, amplified by the hyperconnectivity of our society.

Kids these days, me included, feel like they're swept up in all this swirl at a time when they should be spending time with family, going on dates with their friends, and to see their nieces and newphews grow, and to side with their grandparents before they expire.

I first thought of this when I felt like young girls were sort of modeled to go through what young men go through, to be rational and to be resourceful with knowledge, but then I realized that this masculinity that was associated with learning and education was more pervasive with both the sexes. In a way I feel like smart and talented young girls learn how to become like men to compete in the corporate labor market, and slowly repress the centuries and even thousands of millenia of culture that was cultivated for them as females of the species of homosapien.

I think if the societal system which we have today works, life is actually easy for men, but when it fails, we fall to thoughts of nihilism and revolution.


The more older I get, and honestly from a comparative stand point I'm pretty young, even if I am in my thirties, I feel like I understand why some of the older generation held conservative views on a lot of issues. They understand human nature in relation to how they progress in time and know that a single pebble in the river can change the trajectory of that culture.

But I also understand the injustice that the younger generation see, and know that images and what we say or how we speak matters in building up character and the cultivation of inclusivity, something which some may have not felt.

In the end, the only true utopia is beyond the structure of power within the human realm. Structures of power and the cords of humanity are only bound by the tension between individuals. There is a shameful fragility, I presume, when God looks from on high, or even with near certain indifference when he sees humanity and his efforts to spur a more just and fair society.

Perhaps it's knowledge that really segretates and stratifies all life, or perhaps it is emotion or the pure will.

But we must know for certain, that beyond our all, lies hope. This is what it means to be human. It seems to take more time than usual now.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I mean human in the species term and the humanistic term.

I heard a good term, third space.
Today given internet, third spaces are evaporating, ergo spaces where people mingle and meet. I don't drink anymore, and that kind of makes me feel like I have no where to go to meet people.
Other than public transport or vacations or libraries or bookshops. Its kind of awkward to me to talk to strangers.

Kids these days, me included, feel like they're swept up in all this swirl at a time when they should be spending time with family,

I have spent lot of time with family. My family fits category of dysfunctional family.

They have to master all these maths and history and the sciences before they reach sexual maturity, and they're bombarded with so much political noise and distortion, amplified by the hyperconnectivity of our society.

I see nothing wrong here on paper, I see the wrong is done in how its done.
We need to educate, I just think its done as you say at the expense of any other version of development.
Which is actually the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot.

I think if the societal system which we have today works, life is actually easy for men, but when it fails, we fall to thoughts of nihilism and revolution.

Works for men, is generalization I would not use.
I also don't think it works for majority, but feel free to disagree.
Question is what does it mean to "work". Obtaining money? Then yes. Is money sole purpose of life?

The more older I get, and honestly from a comparative stand point I'm pretty young, even if I am in my thirties, I feel like I understand why some of the older generation held conservative views on a lot of issues. They understand human nature in relation to how they progress in time and know that a single pebble in the river can change the trajectory of that culture.

I agree sort of, but over time I came to the conclusion the dichotomy of conservative and progressive is stupid.
I even think lots of progressive views and conservative views of society are dead ends. Which is kind of natural.
What is different today that a child or adult can be exposed to 100s of concept a year. Whereas in the old days, you were exposed to fewer if not only 1 concept a year. Big difference.
I would call this age the conceptual age, as it was termed in some video I watched.
Id say we are slowly easing into conceptual age, and the gap of prior information age stage is now wider.
My parents are aliens to me in terms of knowledge and perspective.

But I also understand the injustice that the younger generation see, and know that images and what we say or how we speak matters in building up character and the cultivation of inclusivity, something which some may have not felt.

I feel like in today we are more aware, not necessarily more smart.
We are exposed to more and we have more exposition to new information.
This leads to different attitudes, outlooks on problems and life.
It also leads to more social awareness, and leads to more of mutual unconscious bias towards these new things.
I think it always happens, but in the 90s this happened with more intensity.
We always had counter cultures, cults, and various thought leaders. They were always a thing even during middle ages, but today these things are everywhere and so common, we are sort of breathing the vapors and clouds of thoughts and content. Mentally we live in a world that has yet not existed, but we still be the cave monkeys we are. It can definitely be stressful for no reason at all.

In the end, the only true utopia is beyond the structure of power within the human realm. Structures of power and the cords of humanity are only bound by the tension between individuals. There is a shameful fragility, I presume, when God looks from on high, or even with near certain indifference when he sees humanity and his efforts to spur a more just and fair society.

Not exactly sure what you mean, but for instance the way I interpret this is, that it used to be common to talk about over-fishing.
But today over-fishing idea is more imminent and something more common.
Not like teens talk about it or something, more like its more commonly talked about and more accepted idea. No one yet has solution for this, but if you are 8 and exposed to the idea like I was through a cartoon, it makes sense to me.
My parents were busy surviving and making monero to establish a family, and basically happy to buy a radio or pair of boots or jeans.
For me their values make no sense. Its like values shifted towards abundance mindset sort of, and the imminent day to day scarcity our forefathers had is no longer a big spoiler in life.
Maybe this is just my middleclass mindset of never experiencing material loss of things, but I think in many ways, chasing money is trivial activity. Soulsucking but trivial.

 

[Black Rose]

I did much science since age 6.
I did many science speriments.
It was hard but I figured out lots.

I learned bout dinosaurs aliems a.i. and God.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Something that really has become a defining feature of the modern age are values of individualism.

Whatever criticisms you might have about individualism, I do think that the first task one should have is realizing oneself within the context of the world.

The world lives in us, just as much as we live in the world, and getting to that core of who you really are as a person is critical to long-term satisfaction.

Sure if you in your childhood commit your self to being a polymath of sorts, that's all the greater. But I feel that the natural development of people, when they are allowed decipher their own being, they will naturally go towards the fascination of the natural world.

If you know who you are, there is no reason to fixate on yourself. There is no reason to get distracted and overthink on trivial things. When you have inner knowledge, inner peace, not looking at the external world is boring, and you can always be in awe of the things that transpire there.

That being said, you pretty much do have to know a lot of things to really grasp the complexity of the world.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Something that really has become a defining feature of the modern age are values of individualism.

Whatever criticisms you might have about individualism, I do think that the first task one should have is realizing oneself within the context of the world.

I would say both statements are tautological in sense.

The world lives in us, just as much as we live in the world, and getting to that core of who you really are as a person is critical to long-term satisfaction.

That is actually beautiful statement.

fascination of the natural world.

What is not the natural world though?

If you know who you are, there is no reason to fixate on yourself. There is no reason to get distracted and overthink on trivial things. When you have inner knowledge, inner peace, not looking at the external world is boring, and you can always be in awe of the things that transpire there.

When is a man complete...

That being said, you pretty much do have to know a lot of things to really grasp the complexity of the world.

To appreciate knowledge, to use it, to know, and to wield it for good of yourself and others, to acknowledge its utility. Yes in that sense we ought to know always more.
There is however many lenses one can create to look through in order to know and see life, complexity, is partly what humans thrive on as creatures that have the habit of multi-facet mind and curiosity.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

I would say both statements are tautological in sense.

Functionally yeah, I just emphasize self discovery with the implication that it leads to external fascination.

What is not the natural world though?

I guess I mean like the mental world and abstractions.

I suppose that also puts philosophy and math on the chopping block, but Im targeting things that don't really contribute to experience or life development. Even too much philosophizing would fall into excess this though.

In general things that aren't congruent with reality, which is mostly thoughts that people have.

When is a man complete...

That's a good quote, albeit grandiose.

I think it would be when man accepts the emptiness they have.

That being said, you pretty much do have to know a lot of things to really grasp the complexity of the world.

To appreciate knowledge, to use it, to know, and to wield it for good of yourself and others, to acknowledge its utility. Yes in that sense we ought to know always more.
There is however many lenses one can create to look through in order to know and see life, complexity, is partly what humans thrive on as creatures that have the habit of multi-facet mind and curiosity.

Right. I think that just goes to show how some patterns permeate existence as a whole. That there are properties that are shared within the essence of everything.

I don't know though, it would be pretty hard to apply, like music theory to the economics and politics of the middle East though.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I suppose that also puts philosophy and math on the chopping block, but Im targeting things that don't really contribute to experience or life development. Even too much philosophizing would fall into excess this though.

Philosophy is extremely practical, it develops our way to think about the world. But I wholeheartedly agree, losing one self in the abstract is time killer and can be depressing and fruitless. I guess moderation. Then again there is plenty people who just live for the moment, but that can be bleak and boring too.

That's a good quote, albeit grandiose.

I think it would be when man accepts the emptiness they have.

Who knows, but were humans the species that exist for next million years and evolve and colonize space and create life on dead planets, it would not be so grandiose.
If I were to consider any species that could play the role of God it would only be humans as far as I can tell considering how many limitations we overcame.
Part of human drive to develop is inherent fragility of humans.
That said there are obviously plenty people who make you think twice about this and question the probability of that.

Right. I think that just goes to show how some patterns permeate existence as a whole. That there are properties that are shared within the essence of everything.

I don't know though, it would be pretty hard to apply, like music theory to the economics and politics of the middle East though.

Sure, but that was not exactly my point. Every time people take words like complexity and or knowledge they rattle off things like math, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. the standard categories we consider valuable today.
Its modern day meme.
Part of this bias is schooling were we limit children to study of these specific topics.
No wonder we assume this is the grand know how of life.
Its not.
Its just a small subset of modern day civilization that makes it go round and round, but necessarily things we need to function.
Spirituality for instance is study of self.
It seems self indulgent, but consider the self is the most complex machine you ever have, and the self is the thing you have your whole life, its not that bad idea to at least delve partly in spirituality to work shit out.
But were you spiritually inclined in school your teacher would not be able to explain to you anything. Most teachers I knew were good people, but I rarely thought of them as people that would give you good life advice, being in the profession they are.
Then you have things like social stuff.
7 billion + people, yet we know nothing about humanity. Next to nothing how this civilized world came about or what makes it tic.
Gardening. Most complex activity on earth. That is if you are willing to make it so.

 

[Black Rose]

What is not the natural world though?

I guess I mean like the mental world and abstractions.

View attachment 7493

I suppose that also puts philosophy and math on the chopping block, but Im targeting things that don't really contribute to experience or life development. Even too much philosophizing would fall into excess this though.

In general things that aren't congruent with reality, which is mostly thoughts that people have.

What causes me a lot of stress is not having the ability to think internally. I do not get a flow state from thinking. I can only go so far with certain ideas because I am like: too much, it won't fit in my head. Boredom I think comes from not knowing what to do because things are hard and you cannot introspect. There is no self-sustaining process of thought, something external is always required for me. Like how I cannot draw so having a pencil in my hand and looking at the paper causes lots of anxiety because I cannot do anything, and nothing comes out. Most things are like this for me because I have ADD. I like ideas but I cannot do much with them. So being productive usually entails just doing/learning small little things.

To me, all maths are just tools I keep in my head.
I use them the way I use the paint program on Windows.
But I know better tools exist like unreal engine.
My mind just is not that good at mental tool use.
Everything is too narrow.
I walk a fine line.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Like how I cannot draw so having a pencil in my hand and looking at the paper causes lots of anxiety because I cannot do anything, and nothing comes out

Well generally unless you draw a lot it rarely does. My mindset when drawing is whatever happens is OK.
Its usually performance anxiety.

 

[Black Rose]

Like how I cannot draw so having a pencil in my hand and looking at the paper causes lots of anxiety because I cannot do anything, and nothing comes out

Well generally unless you draw a lot it rarely does. My mindset when drawing is whatever happens is OK.
Its usually performance anxiety.

People like drawing for the same reason they like video games.
In the context of the thread, I just cannot sit down and think stuff.
So when not doing something compatible with my ADD I get really bored.
At the most basic fundamental level, I cannot entertain myself with the cognitive process of thought, I need to do stuff and this is like finding a videogame I can play without feeling bad. Most games in this metaphor, feel like they don't fit me.

I am a highly verbal-spatial person but lack short-term memory.
Science is cool but I cannot do most of it, I want to but can't.
This creates a void in my life because I cannot do experiments.
The inconsistency of regular immediate feedback fucks my brain up.
Some people can generate a constant feedback cycle in themselves.

It is fine though that I have ADD. I just need more money to do things.
I feel tired all the time from looking and looking and looking for what I can do.

 

[EndogenousRebel]

Who knows, but were humans the species that exist for next million years and evolve and colonize space and create life on dead planets, it would not be so grandiose.
If I were to consider any species that could play the role of God it would only be humans as far as I can tell considering how many limitations we overcame.
Part of human drive to develop is inherent fragility of humans.
That said there are obviously plenty people who make you think twice about this and question the probability of that.

As a whole civilization we are a planetary god I suppose. We do hold admirable qualities on the individual level. I feel that quote is mostly about the internal head space of a human.

We cling to reason as if it were a god. We can get caught up in a cycle of our own thoughts perpetually, we worry about things as if we are the only ones that can ever make a difference, accountable for that worry to a fault.

Sure, but that was not exactly my point. Every time people take words like complexity and or knowledge they rattle off things like math, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. the standard categories we consider valuable today.
Its modern day meme.
Part of this bias is schooling were we limit children to study of these specific topics.
No wonder we assume this is the grand know how of life.
Its not.

If you study these sciences you pretty much have the foundational knowledge to understand most material things. The value this understanding brings you is relative to what you do with your life.

For me it's the approach taken. You are learning how to learn something that has already been layed out by people before you. You are learning how to learn structured information. School SHOULD teach you how discover and inquire into knowledge. Even if someone already has threaded that path.

This way it doesn't matter what you do, you pretty much not only know how to learn, but how to investigate and act on information.

Perhaps it's because academics want job security or are pretentious, but basically, the success in any endevour one sets out to do is about critical thinking.

I don't know about you, but 90% of my critical thinking in school, was eliminating answers on a multiple choice question.

The subject matter, I think is of little importance, because the youth would carry those critical thinking skills really far across any domain.

It would be great if we had more practical classes that we could apply in adulthood obviously.

Spirituality for instance is study of self.
It seems self indulgent, but consider the self is the most complex machine you ever have, and the self is the thing you have your whole life, its not that bad idea to at least delve partly in spirituality to work shit out.
But were you spiritually inclined in school your teacher would not be able to explain to you anything. Most teachers I knew were good people, but I rarely thought of them as people that would give you good life advice, being in the profession they are.
Then you have things like social stuff.
7 billion + people, yet we know nothing about humanity. Next to nothing how this civilized world came about or what makes it tic.
Gardening. Most complex activity on earth. That is if you are willing to make it so.

I don't expect anyone who hasn't heard my story at least for an hour to tell me anything useful. When teachers were helpful in those personal matters, they were usually just sharing common sense.



@Black Rose look up a programming language course.

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The feedback and high you get from making something work is indescribable. All you have to do is follow along, and you'll make things. It doesn't matter if other people have made things. If you truly are that desparate to engage in some technical process, go for it.

 

[scorpiomover]

I mean human in the species term and the humanistic term.

Like imagine what a child has to go through within our current pedagogic system. They have to master all these maths and history and the sciences before they reach sexual maturity, and they're bombarded with so much political noise and distortion, amplified by the hyperconnectivity of our society.

Kids these days, me included, feel like they're swept up in all this swirl at a time when they should be spending time with family, going on dates with their friends, and to see their nieces and newphews grow, and to side with their grandparents before they expire.

The vast majority of people don't use over 90% of the maths and science they were taught in school.

But I won't deny that it seems that so much of what people need to know to succeed, depends on knowledge that only some people know. In some countries, that's known as gatekeeping.

It's a shame, because you know that minorities like African-Americans are almost certain to get far less access to knowledge, leading to a 2-tier society where a person's success can depend on things like the colour of their skin.

I first thought of this when I felt like young girls were sort of modeled to go through what young men go through, to be rational and to be resourceful with knowledge, but then I realized that this masculinity that was associated with learning and education was more pervasive with both the sexes. In a way I feel like smart and talented young girls learn how to become like men to compete in the corporate labor market, and slowly repress the centuries and even thousands of millenia of culture that was cultivated for them as females of the species of homosapien.

If you want to make 2 genders equal, it's a lot simpler to just train them all to be identical clones.

But I also understand the injustice that the younger generation see, and know that images and what we say or how we speak matters in building up character and the cultivation of inclusivity, something which some may have not felt.

Perhaps it's knowledge that really segretates and stratifies all life, or perhaps it is emotion or the pure will.

Well, if you control the knowledge that allows one to live in safety, happiness and success, then it doesn't matter how much they protest, and what they change, as they never have the information to make the world a better place. So the younger generation are always screwed.

But we must know for certain, that beyond our all, lies hope. This is what it means to be human. It seems to take more time than usual now.

Without hope, life is futile, depressing and meaningless. Without hope, suicide is the only way for African-Americans and other minorities to escape pain & suffering.

 

[scorpiomover]

To me, all maths are just tools I keep in my head.

That's a pretty accurate description of maths, actually, and I did a degree in maths.

I use them the way I use the paint program on Windows.
But I know better tools exist like unreal engine.

Maths was developed before anyone had computers.

It's still useful if your computer doesn't already know how to do something, and you need a mental tool to figure out what instructions to give a computer.

 

[ZenRaiden]

People like drawing for the same reason they like video games.

I suppose. I like drawing, because it gives my mind freedom to create anything. Its very refreshing over most daily or learning activities.
Games are play for me.
Drawing is play and freedom and creative to me. But I have to have a mood for drawing to do it.

This creates a void in my life because I cannot do experiments.

I mean yeah, but you could do the cheapest experiment in the world.
You have short term memory problems right?
How about you design experiments to improve it?
No one has done it yet, successfully, except developed nootropics and stuff like ritalin etc.

 

[ZenRaiden]

As a whole civilization we are a planetary god I suppose. We do hold admirable qualities on the individual level. I feel that quote is mostly about the internal head space of a human.

We cling to reason as if it were a god. We can get caught up in a cycle of our own thoughts perpetually, we worry about things as if we are the only ones that can ever make a difference, accountable for that worry to a fault.

If you think about this from evolutionary perspective the type of knowledge that burdens our minds today exists relatively short while.
Our minds on neurological and psychological level were not meant to work the way we use minds today.
We use most the parts of mind that are slowest and least natural to us.
Writing and reading it self is one of those activities.
I mean 99 percent of us are so clumsy at these activities we take months to learn them and years to master these skills.
But the knowledge is here and we have to live with it.
I mean if you look at what knowledge does to people, like Socrates basically killed himself, because he could not handle the fact they disagree with him. He was a reactionary. Brains on knowledge aren't always the best.
Obviously there is significant knowledge fetish today.
Sad thing is this knowledge often pays off, and so society depletes its self and structures it self around what makes the biggest bang for buck.
Today we are people who sit constantly and read and write and count.
And honestly no matter how smart and how much dopamine you get its rather boring life.
But on factual end, humanity literally gave birth to billions of humans, where in past some anthropologist claim humanity had been near extinction.

Perhaps it's because academics want job security or are pretentious, but basically, the success in any endevour one sets out to do is about critical thinking.

It used be so. Jung Freud and Adler were filthy rich guys, in fact whole Vienna circle was upper mid class or more. Those people got degrees and were set for life. Our parents still had that mindset. No longer applies.

I don't know about you, but 90% of my critical thinking in school, was eliminating answers on a multiple choice question.

I got nothing against critical thinking or anything, but I seriously think schools don't teach thinking at all.

I don't expect anyone who hasn't heard my story at least for an hour to tell me anything useful. When teachers were helpful in those personal matters, they were usually just sharing common sense.

Yeah you can't really help people unless you know them.
Someone who knows you well can help you better, than someone smart who knows little.
Gurus are smart, but they give out general advice.
I remember listening to this lady who had 2 kids and was stressed from work. She asked for help, and while his advice was helpful, she was in such bad shape, his advice sounded like band aid on a hemorrhaging wound.
True spiritualism is very rare, because it takes time to deprogram and reprogram minds.

 

[Black Rose]

critical thinking is just the ability to inhibit your impulses.

looking at things from a global view and what may affect the whole system.

it is that point of failure where metacognition kicks in telling us how to proceed.

at basic it is just a systematic approach to doting all i's and crossing all t's

at advanced it is high working memory to reverse engineer what you do before you do it.

 

[Black Rose]

You have short term memory problems right?
How about you design experiments to improve it?

The ability to move has its beginning in attachment.

We are conditioned in what we are allowed and not allowed to do with other people.

So the superego is born.

To prevent pain or to get what one needs.

This is in the frontal lobes of the brain.

It takes all effort to keep from doing bad things, bad things get you hurt.

So there are no more resources emotionally to allow for certain forms of thought.

If a person is allowed to do things and not have bad things happen they can think more.

It requires a person to take control of what they can do.

 

[ZenRaiden]

The ability to move has its beginning in attachment.

We are conditioned in what we are allowed and not allowed to do with other people.

So the superego is born.

To prevent pain or to get what one needs.

This is in the frontal lobes of the brain.

It takes all effort to keep from doing bad things, bad things get you hurt.

So there are no more resources emotionally to allow for certain forms of thought.

If a person is allowed to do things and not have bad things happen they can think more.

It requires a person to take control of what they can do.

I have noticed this in my self too.

 

[sushi]

the smarter gets smarter

the stupider gets stupider


the richer get richer, the poorer gets poorer

hence the divide

 

[Black Rose]

Without luck and good parents, kids often don't learn science.

Science thinking is a skill though and can be taught.

Many interventions must take place to change old ways of thinking.