I Demand a Formal Debate

[TimeAsylums]

Aristotle v Plato


I apologize if it really does exist, but I was searching through and I could not find it.


I demand a formal debate of Aristotle v Plato by you powerhouse denizens of this place


Naturally, I am too lazy to do so, but I would love watching, and to be honest, I'm not who sure wouldn't.


You may personally think it has been overdone throughout time, and so many books and other scholars speaking on it.

...but it is timeless.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i'll remand it for ya, silly.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

formal debate

Naturally, I am too lazy to do so

Just make the thread. Rules simply dictate that two sides exist, not that only one person can occupy each.

 

[Hawkeye]

Plato was a questioner.

How difficult is it to ask questions...? Oh...

 

[Brontosaurie]

plato wasn't a questioner, he was a believer

if anything:

socrates - questioner
plato - believer
aristoteles - critic

(heracleitus - be-er)

well i guess if socrates is plato's brainchild plato is also a questioner, but ultimately he's a believer.

 

[Absurdity]

Plato - Ni
Aristotle - Ti
Socrates - Ne

 

[The Introvert]

I'm deciding whether I should delve into the world of Plato, James Joyce, or (retro)viruses.

Perhaps two of the three.

I'll keep you updated (this thread will eventually happen, so long as interested parties remain).

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Plato - Ni
Aristotle - Ti
Socrates - Ne

Diogenes...?

I'm deciding whether I should delve into the world of Plato, James Joyce, or (retro)viruses.

Perhaps two of the three.

I'll keep you updated (this thread will eventually happen, so long as interested parties remain).

Joyce is relegated to bathroom reading material. Seriously. That's the best place ever to read.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Plato - believer
Aristotle - critic
Socrates - questioner

Plato - Ni
Aristotle - Ti
Socrates - Ne

lol this matches up so much (srs)...and teh Ne came first xD lol



...but really...someone start it...xD ....maybe one of u J's...

 

[BigApplePi]

Plato - Ni
Aristotle - Ti
Socrates - Ne

Plato - This is the best way
Aristotle - This is how it -is- can be
Socrates - How is it?

 

[Hawkeye]

Out of the three, Aristotle was the one that had his head screwed on.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Aristotle was so NOT Ti lol. He's all about categorization and heuristic sweeping but concrete thinking. Guaranteed Te user no question. Probs ENTJ, there is a reason he wasn't as big as the other two back in the days, he's not nearly as sophisticated in his writing or thinking, he's more about efficiency and scope and clarity.

Plato= Ni+Ti
Socrates=Ne+Ti
Aristotle=Te+Ni

Out of the three Plato is the one with the most insight. Socrates being his arbiter.

Aristotle is quite different, his contribution is mainly methodology and not his actual thinking or theories.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i've yet to see any of plato's alleged insight. perhaps i've been looking in the wrong places.

 

[scorpiomover]

Socrates - "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." - Ti

Plato - "If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things." - Fe.

Aristotle - "Mothers are fonder than fathers of their children because they are more certain they are their own." - Te

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Socrates - "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." - Ti

Plato - "If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things." - Fe.

Aristotle - "Mothers are fonder than fathers of their children because they are more certain they are their own." - Te

I.... I don't see how you're connecting individual functions to the latter two examples.

I've always thought it was generally accepted that:

Socrates: INTP
Plato: INTJ
Aristotle: ENTP



If Diogenes =/= ENTP, I'll eat his underwear.

 

[scorpiomover]

I.... I don't see how you're connecting individual functions to the latter two examples.

I've always thought it was generally accepted that:

Socrates: INTP
Plato: INTJ
Aristotle: ENTP

I got that general impression. But I was paying attention to the things they said. IMHO, Plato comes off more like an INFJ, and Aristotle as an ENTJ.

Plato made a lot of statements like "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle." Very feelingsy and compassionate towards others.

INTJs tend to be very oriented towards their own values and their own goals. They tend to believe in integrity to themselves, and tend to be not that worried if their ideas upset others.

Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. His lessons enabled Alexander to take over most of South-Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Middle East, Persia and part of India.

I was also reading how Aristotle used to walk in the gardens and his students had to follow him, or they wouldn't be able to learn from him. Seems to be dictating that others adapt to his ways.

The quotes that I read of Aristotle, seemed to be very practical in nature, but quite ruthless, like the quote that mothers love their children more than their fathers, which is practically and generally true (Te), even though it's false in the minority (lacking in Ti), but because mothers could be more sure than the kid was theirs, which seems eminently practical (VERY Te), but really very unfeeling towards the children, as it expresses that the mothers don't actually care for their children because they love them, but simply because they're "their" children, which really seems quite heartless, and very lacking in Fe.

If Diogenes =/= ENTP, I'll eat his underwear.

Some quotes of Digoenes:

"As a matter of self-preservation, a man needs good friends or ardent enemies, for the former instruct him and the latter take him to task." - Sounds very extroverted to me. Also, very P-ish, changing as a result of his friend's instruction and his enemies taking him to task.

"Those who have virtue always in their mouths, and neglect it in practice, are like a harp, which emits a sound pleasing to others, while itself is insensible of the music." - Very intuitive saying.

"Once he saw the officials of a temple leading away some one who had stolen a bowl belonging to the treasurers, and said, "The great thieves are leading away the little thief."" - Sounds like Ti. But has moral value to it. Could be Fi.

"A student of philosophy, eager to display his powers of argument, approached Diogenes, introduced himself and said, "If it pleases you, sir, let me prove to you that there is no such thing as motion." Whereupon Diogenes immediately got up and left." - Very practical and concise evaluation. Very Te.

Have you considered that he could have been a very smart ENFP? Like an ENTP, but with values, morals and a hint of practicality, instead of reason, logic and a hint of compassion?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Aristotle taught Alexander the Great. His lessons enabled Alexander to take over most of South-Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Middle East, Persia and part of India.

I was also reading how Aristotle used to walk in the gardens and his students had to follow him, or they wouldn't be able to learn from him. Seems to be dictating that others adapt to his ways.

The quotes that I read of Aristotle, seemed to be very practical in nature, but quite ruthless, like the quote that mothers love their children more than their fathers, which is practically and generally true (Te), even though it's false in the minority (lacking in Ti), but because mothers could be more sure than the kid was theirs, which seems eminently practical (VERY Te), but really very unfeeling towards the children, as it expresses that the mothers don't actually care for their children because they love them, but simply because they're "their" children, which really seems quite heartless, and very lacking in Fe.

When it comes to Aristotle teaching Alexander the Great, do you think the apparent success is due to two individuals thinking in the same manner, or to two thinking in a complimentary manner? Not that these options are mutually exclusive...

I wouldn't take the requirement to walk through the gardens as definitive to a type, but to a process. i.e. An ENTP might consider the garden to be where he thinks best, so that's where students should be if they want to experience the best interaction.

I think I'm slowly being convinced of Aristotle's Te though...

Have you considered that he could have been a very smart ENFP? Like an ENTP, but with values, morals and a hint of practicality, instead of reason, logic and a hint of compassion?

So that's why I like him so much...

Got any hot sauce?

(I think Cherry Cola's got the whole thing right. )

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Out of the three, Aristotle was the one that had his head screwed on.

His head is quite clearly not screwed on.

 

[scorpiomover]

When it comes to Aristotle teaching Alexander the Great, do you think the apparent success is due to two individuals thinking in the same manner, or to two thinking in a complimentary manner? Not that these options are mutually exclusive...

I'm not sure. What I have heard about Alexander, was that his greatest skill was in convincing his army to follow him all across the Middle Eastern desert to Persia, and all the way into India, even though food and water was scarce, and they were missing their families all the time, and worried if someone else was going to take their land and their family while they were away, and probably wanted to go home every single day. From the way historians had described him, he sounds more of an ENFJ than an ENTJ.

I'm fairly confident that he learned a lot about leadership and waging successful military campaigns from Aristotle. But one doesn't need to be the same type as one's teacher, to learn a lot from him. In many ways, it can help if your teacher is a different type than you, because then he can teach you how to develop your weaknesses.

I wouldn't take the requirement to walk through the gardens as definitive to a type, but to a process. i.e. An ENTP might consider the garden to be where he thinks best, so that's where students should be if they want to experience the best interaction.

I found it very interesting. I have taken walks to help me think, through most of my life, and I'm an INTP. But I don't expect anyone else to follow me, and if they want to do something else with me, then I'll usually go for a walk later. I'm also the only person I've known to do this on a regular basis, apart from my father, an INxP, and biographical stories of other INTPs.

ENTPs tend to be very willing to accommodate others, though. If they want to stay in, but others want to go out, they'll usually go out, and vice versa.

What I found interesting, was the lack of accommodation in Aristotle's behaviour. I would have thought a P would have done what others want, while Aristotle was doing the reverse.

I think I'm slowly being convinced of Aristotle's Te though...

So that's why I like him so much...

Got any hot sauce?

I would advise you to not be convinced. I think that you should decide for yourself of his type, and be sure enough that even if everyone here, including me, thinks that you're wrong, that you still know that you're right.

(I think Cherry Cola's got the whole thing right. )

Perhaps she is. It wouldn't be the first time that I've been wrong.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

ENTPs tend to be very willing to accommodate others, though. If they want to stay in, but others want to go out, they'll usually go out, and vice versa.

That depends on whether the ENTP likes the others.

What I found interesting, was the lack of accommodation in Aristotle's behaviour. I would have thought a P would have done what others want, while Aristotle was doing the reverse.

The garden situation has two things that stick out to me :

First, if ENTP(?) Aristotle considered students/teaching to be a nuisance, then he would have done whatever he was interested in instead, and adapted his teaching to that environment instead of the environment to his teaching.

Second, the garden was his own creation. ENTP(?) Aristotle would have known the whole thing inside and out, and could have metaphorically taken his students into his "machine."

I would advise you to not be convinced. I think that you should decide for yourself of his type, and be sure enough that even if everyone here, including me, thinks that you're wrong, that you still know that you're right.

I'm not that invested in ol' Aristotle.

I have a habit of projecting myself onto everything until that something is shown to be otherwise.

Spoiler

I'm serious about the hot sauce. Have you seen those underwear!?!?

 

[Moser]

Since the only original sources for the nature and words of Socrates are from Plato, and a little from Xenophon, but 99.99% Plato, the character of Socrates is whoever Plato wants him to be. However he certainly does a great deal of questioning what people thought was accepted, without really coming to a point. Most likely this is because the stoa of Plato allows someone to come to there own conclusions, or to make up your own mind, follow your own daimon, so to speak.

As for Aristotle, I only know a little, but as I understand it his works are mostly scientific and having to do with his thoughts about eudaimonia, which is really a extension of Plato in a sense. But as they are alike, so are they different. I do not know how persuasive Aristotle could be, nor do I recall any military accomplishments of his, so I do not believe he influenced Alexander in military matters. I do believe that Alexander believed in Scientific exploits, such as having a fleet sail from the Indus river to the Indian ocean to I believe up the Arabian Gulf? Not to sure, but Alexander's curiousity could be from Aristotle, unfortunately no 2nd or 1st hand accounts of his campaign survive, technically.

Another thing, Aristotle can be a little... I don't know sexist, prejudiced, even a little narrow minded, main reason I stopped reading him was that he apparently believed that societies collapse when women are allowed power... no good.

 

[Moser]

Sorry if I'm ignorant in my knowledge on Aristotle, but I would love to learn more.

 

[scorpiomover]

That depends on whether the ENTP likes the others.

The garden situation has two things that stick out to me :

First, if ENTP(?) Aristotle considered students/teaching to be a nuisance, then he would have done whatever he was interested in instead, and adapted his teaching to that environment instead of the environment to his teaching.

Second, the garden was his own creation. ENTP(?) Aristotle would have known the whole thing inside and out, and could have metaphorically taken his students into his "machine."

A large part of ENTPs, is that they like people, even when they're making fun of them.

It would also make being a teacher incredibly difficult. AFAIK, there was no free public education then in Greece. Aristotle's income depended on the payments of very wealthy parents whose children were his teachers. My younger brother is a teacher in a similar situation. If he doesn't like his students, then he doesn't make the effort to make them like the subject, and then most don't learn much, just like any other teacher. But then when the kids go home, and it becomes obvious to the parents that the kids aren't learning much, they stop paying him. So when someone is in that situation, one has to make oneself like the students, or one often gets the sack, and has no money.

I'm not that invested in ol' Aristotle.

I have a habit of projecting myself onto everything until that something is shown to be otherwise.

Am I to understand that you don't like others all that much?

I'm serious about the hot sauce. Have you seen those underwear!?!?

I like spicy sauces, and eat them quite a lot. But I wouldn't want them anywhere near my underwear. Ever touched your genitals after eating chilli? Talk about a chemical burn!

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

A large part of ENTPs, is that they like people, even when they're making fun of them.

It would also make being a teacher incredibly difficult. AFAIK, there was no free public education then in Greece. Aristotle's income depended on the payments of very wealthy parents whose children were his teachers. My younger brother is a teacher in a similar situation. If he doesn't like his students, then he doesn't make the effort to make them like the subject, and then most don't learn much, just like any other teacher. But then when the kids go home, and it becomes obvious to the parents that the kids aren't learning much, they stop paying him. So when someone is in that situation, one has to make oneself like the students, or one often gets the sack, and has no money.

But, someone in Aristotle's position, with his level of achieved reputation, would be in a very different situation. He'd have had much more leeway in choosing his students - who would/could stay. He also wasn't exactly a fan of consumerism or economic materialism:

Aristotle (384–322 B.C.E.) identifies "liberality" as a virtue that is the mean between prodigality and illiberality. The context is money or wealth. The liberal man (the gender is not incidental) will "give with a fine end in view, and in the right way; because he will give to the right people, and the right amounts, and at the right time" (Aristotle [1976] p. 143:1120a25). When acting liberally, it is the disposition that matters, not the sum or sort of resources. Though giving is more virtuous than receiving, nonetheless, the "liberal" will accept wealth under similar constraints. The most important source of wealth is the ownership of property, especially landed property. This ownership is associated with other estimable traits such as responsibility, prudence, and steadfastness. By exercising these virtues, wealth qua landed property is sustained so that, accordingly, there are resources available with which to act liberally. Importantly, wealth thus understood imposes obligations; it does not reflect an acquisitive mentality and it is not valued for its own sake.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/11608/Wealth-Wealth-Virtue.html

Am I to understand that you don't like others all that much?

The best way to kill is with love.

Spoiler

I suppose "myself" in that context can be seen as a reduction of "my understanding."

I like spicy sauces, and eat them quite a lot. But I wouldn't want them anywhere near my underwear. Ever touched your genitals after eating chilli? Talk about a chemical burn!

I don't think Diogenes would wear them again after I ate them. But then again...

 

[scorpiomover]

But, someone in Aristotle's position, with his level of achieved reputation, would be in a very different situation. He'd have had much more leeway in choosing his students - who would/could stay.

Yes. But such a decision is still imposing his will on others. It's still a J-ish characteristic.

He also wasn't exactly a fan of consumerism or economic materialism:

True. But Aristotle is famously quoted as having said "Do what I say. Not what I do." He ate from the food that he bought with the money that was given to him from those who were. If he did as he he said, then he'd have been forced to seek another profession, or starve to death.

Aristotle could be an ENTP, for all I know. It's not like I lived 2,350 years ago and hung out with the guy. I'm just going off what I've read of him so far.

 

[Moser]

If Aristotle was a philosopher, and a Greek philosopher, and considering most, if not all Greek philosophers did not really care if they lived or died or made much money (afterall what is one tiny life compared to the cosmos?), then what difference would it make to him to teach a student out of fear for his income? Not much at all in that logic. So choosing his student, and considering choices in the Greek mindset in general, would be his alone to make and consequences/reputation be damned.

Yet how does the old fart compare to the other one?