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I believe so that I may understand

The Grey Man

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I'm back, though I might not stay for long. Looking at the Forum with fresh eyes, one thing jumps out at me:

Only Philosophy. No faith or religious arguments here. Keep those to the Faith forum subsection. Here we argue about philosophy. :)

Even something as innocuous as the rationale for the division of the forum into subsections (punctuated by a smiley face!) betrays the pernicious and characteristically modern assumption that philosophy and religion, or reason and faith, are somehow separate and opposed. On the contrary, I have long believed that they are reconcilable and that, if it is to be insisted that they are opposites, then it is because they are not adversaries, but complements to each other.

A cursory look at the recent posts on this sub-forum shows @onesteptwostep using one of my favourite quotes of mine from St. Augustine, later adopted by St. Anselm: "I believe so that I may understand." Most Forumites will find St. Anselm old-fashioned, let alone St. Augustine, but I have come to believe that truth does not have an expiration date, but any truth, if indeed it is a truth, must be as true today as it was yesterday, nor will it be less true tomorrow. Since Augustine and Anselm spoke of faith and knowledge and not, say, the grand strategy of the PRC, the value of their contributions must be estimated not by its practical relevance to our times, but by its theoretical adequation to eternal realities.

If you are as skeptical as you were when I left, you will probably prefer that saying of Abelard: "By doubting we come to questioning and by questioning we come to the truth." Fair enough, but uncertainty of an Abelard (or a Descartes) is a certainty in itself, for to doubt that one's beliefs are true is to wonder whether they are not an adequate representation of some independent reality, which is not itself doubted, but assumed as an indubitable postulate. The skeptic may therefore deny the possibility of absolute truth and infallible knowledge if he wants, but he must do so absolutely and with the pretense of infallibility. The absurdity and folly of such question-begging Cartesian 'epistemology' was already recognized by Kant and even by Plato and Aristotle, but this has not prevented certain 'philosophers' of the 20th century from formulating relativistic doctrines that claim truth and knowledge to be parasitic on history, culture, language, etc., which is all the more reason not to judge the worth of a philosophical doctrine by its novelty.

Even skeptics, then, must believe so that they may understand, for the simple reason that, as Aristotle showed, principles are unprovable: a provable principle would not be a true principle, since every proof depends on a principle that is logically anterior and therefore prior to what is proved. Like the mathematician, the philosopher has the freedom to choose his own axioms, with the proviso that their consequences will not necessarily be compatible, as Socrates demonstrated to the consternation of his fellow Athenians (not to mention the falsifying experiments of Galileo and Michelson). And this duality, this complementarity between antecedent and consequence, between principle and application, is precisely that between faith and reason.
 

Black Rose

An unbreakable bond
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Hope is the mirror by which God's reflection is revealed.
 

Black Rose

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I was real sad today. I was thinking about how I cannot live my purpose. I am isolated with nothing to do but be alone in my room. I need something to do that will make me happy but I can't do things by myself because I am not that intelligent and it makes me sad. I'd hire people to help me with my software project if I had money. I think I can get help if I meet people but It will have to be through Virtual Reality because I have no other place to look. For now, I will need alternatives because I'm so sad being alone doing nothing.
 

EndogenousRebel

Even a mean person is trying their best, right?
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Beliefs are the hooks in our hands that grab hold of a mountain wall. It's more complicated than that, but I don't have a better analogy. I guess picture a mountain wall that defies time and space and that you have thousands of limbs to grab hold of it. The purpose of beliefs don't end there and I don't think they are entirely benevolent, but I don't think that's the point of the thread.

Certain things are only true because we believe them, because they have circular logic and are maintained by other beliefs.

I was real sad today. I was thinking about how I cannot live my purpose. I am isolated with nothing to do but be alone in my room. I need something to do that will make me happy but I can't do things by myself because I am not that intelligent and it makes me sad. I'd hire people to help me with my software project if I had money. I think I can get help if I meet people but It will have to be through Virtual Reality because I have no other place to look. For now, I will need alternatives because I'm so sad being alone doing nothing.
Prime example, and one that has plagued me a lot. Competence is very appealing to people , but the obsession needed to have high general competence is unattainable for most people, and it's very easy to be discouraged because it IS hard and they'd much rather be told their are good enough without even having to try. When one lives a life that is more challenging, by circumstance like heredity, class, or trauma, this just multiplies. It's not just hard because of the dedication required, it's hard because you see yourself as unable and defective, which is just the base of a branching tree of dozens if not hundreds and thousands of beliefs, reasons that become self-fulfilling prophecies.

And so, what you believe is true because what you believe. "I'm useless to no one and I will die alone" is easy to see as true when it has many underlying structure beliefs/assumptions. To change this is easier said than done. I would recommend journaling, maybe add a bullet point element that delves deeper into certain beliefs, those help me unravel things very much.

I say the best purpose you can have is to pave the way for people like you, so that those like you in the future aren't as miserable as you may feel.
 

onesteptwostep

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You don't think about belief. Belief is belief. Do you think about trust?

Trust comes naturally. A baby doesn't think whether to trust his parents or not- it's a belief from irrationality. The baby cannot compute on what a parent is or even if the person taking care of them is their mother or father. The baby simply goes along the ride.

God is more or less the same thing.
 

Thurlor

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I think we should start with a clear definition of belief as it relates to this discussion. As with faith it means different things to different people. I don't want to make assumptions about which version of belief you are referring to.
 

onesteptwostep

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Text does not come before experience. We simply use text to frame experience, not the other way around.
 

The Grey Man

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I think we should start with a clear definition of belief as it relates to this discussion. As with faith it means different things to different people. I don't want to make assumptions about which version of belief you are referring to.

Belief is assent to or affirmation of the truth of a proposition. A true proposition may be true either independently or because it is logically implied by another true proposition in accordance with the law of non-contradiction. Truths in general may therefore be divided into two complementary categories:
  1. independent truths, or principles; and
  2. dependent truths, or consequences of the principles.
Analogously, beliefs may be divided into foundational or non-rational beliefs and non-foundational or rational ones. Obviously, rational beliefs depend on non-rational ones and dependent truths on independent ones, which leaves open the question of what principles depend on, if anything. Aristotle thought that principles are self-evident, whereas Kant thought they are 'synthetic', meaning that they can be denied without contradiction. Kant was vindicated, however, by the invention of self-consistent non-Euclidian geometries by Riemann and Lobachevsky, who denied one of the principles of Euclid's geometry (the 'Parallel Postulate') without thereby contradicting themselves. This meant that, as I said above, the mathematician has the freedom to choose his own axioms: they are not forced on him by logical necessity. Principles cannot be proved, though the consequences of one principle can be proven to be inconsistent with those of another (as geometers had tried to do for centuries vis-à-vis the denial of the Parallel Postulate and the remaining Euclidian postulates before Kant), which is why Karl Popper believed that science is based rather on falsification of hypotheses than verification, pace the logical positivists of the Vienna Circle.

I believe so that I might understand: though my non-foundational beliefs do not vindicate my foundational ones, yet are the latter a necessary condition of the former. For example, I cannot understand gravitational phenomena without postulating something like Newton's law of universal gravitation or the occult spacetime manifold of Einstein (whose work is incidentally based on that of Riemann and other mathematicians), nor can such general principles be deduced with all strictness from their particular applications, as David Hume showed. This is why I prefer Anselm to Abelard.
 

ZenRaiden

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Religion and philosophy are almost the same thing, but Id say they are little different in fundamental way and a lot of the same in function.

OK philosophy is more about opening new doors and redefining the dogma of human experience.

Religion on the other hand is just small subset of philosophy.

A subset of philosophy a philosophy that is about bounding humans to each other by virtues and faith and also by common ground values that are defined by history and everlasting dogma.

The point of religion is to create harmony and unity among humans sometimes by force. Sometimes in ways that go against the wise and well established truths.

However religion also opens us up to a world where reason has less agency than human nature. Where reason comes second and where the emotional and personal and one could say psychological force rein free of any rule of logic, ratio or sense.
In other words religion is a kind of escape into the world where rules are set by parameters that require insight into the subjective or might be metaphysical realm.

Its not so much that philosophy is not great influence on religion. Quite on contrary.
It has absolute grip on religion. Religion would have very little to offer in the way it exists today without proper structure from philosophy.

Religion is simply a method of assuming a solution to the psychic realm of our minds that is often somewhat independent from the world of philosophy in certain capacity.

However philosophy while many times at odds with each other are truly functioning in same way. They both attempt to reconcile the human existence with the world and they both try to make things better for humans by redefining the human experience.

All religions adhere to some wisdom, that is true of all religion. All religions are a kind of window into human soul and its predicament.
 

The Grey Man

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Religion and philosophy coincide in esotericism, which more often than not means some sort of oral tradition. When philosophy becomes almost entirely a literary phenomenon (as it has in modern and to some extent in ancient times), then it becomes alienated from religion. This relation is expressed in Sanskrit by the distinction between shruti and smriti, although individual originators of Western philosophies usually lack the connection to tradition that the term smriti implies. The more appropriate distinction in their case might that of science from sapience, or knowledge from wisdom.

2 Corinthians 3:6 said:
for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 

Puffy

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I agree with you OP that philosophy & faith aren't mutually exclusive to me or at least can argued to be related. Historically speaking to see them as separate is a relatively modern and new thing.

Though to give another lens on this. Around the time I joined this forum philosophy & faith were under the same subforum. But in that time it would often be dominated by lots of threads centred around God, Christianity & faith. Whether right or wrong, I think that faith & spirituality was separated into its own sub-forum here so as to give other philosophical subjects room to breathe in the philosophy sub-forum.
 

gilliatt

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Here is the brief common-sense rationality: The essentials are: in metaphysics, the 'Law of Identity'--in epistemology, the 'supremacy of reason'--in ethics, rational egoism--in politics, 'individual rights(i.e., capitalism)--in esthetics, 'metaphysical values'. This way you can recognize falsehood, false theories etc. and amplify true ones.
 
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