I accidentally became a doomer.

[ZenRaiden]

By 2018, 4chan users had begun creating Wojak caricatures with the -oomer suffix, derived from "boomer", to mock various groups online. One of these caricatures was "Doomers", 20-somethings who had "simply stopped trying".[4] The meme first appeared on 4chan's /r9k/ board in September 2018.[4] The image typically depicts the Wojak character in a beanie, smoking a cigarette. "Doomer" themed playlists, featuring this wojak along with slowed down music edits (often involving post-punk or rock) reached popularity on Youtube, especially during the Covid-19 lockdowns. The archetype often embodies nihilism and despair, with a belief in the incipient end of the world to causes ranging from climate apocalypse to peak oil to (more locally) opioid addiction.[5] Kaitlyn Tiffany writes in The Atlantic that the doomer meme depicts young men who "are no longer pursuing friendships or relationships, and get no joy from anything because they know that the world is coming to an end."[4]

I was watching memes to cheer me up and I read up on this wojak doomer thing and realized I became accidentally a doomer according to memes.
I don't believe humanity will collapse, but rather deflate a little and if extinction comes humanity will simply fizzle out in like 10 000 years or something.
I really don't believe we are in the end times, though we are in a strange place as society, the strangest yet.
We have everything, yet we are lacking.
We have modern medicine yet we are often sick even from stress.
We work often to point of burnouts yet we often lack things in life even financially.
We have billions of people yet many people have relationships problems me included.
We have good conditions for things yet we tend to have broken homes and families.
We have more than enough yet we fight like crazy for resources like its 500 BC or something.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I think if you aren't married by the time you're in your 30s, you have a side of you that's very doomer. You're old enough to understand how the world works i.e. politics or the economy, and the cultural landscape, and know very well that most of it is out of your reach of control. You also have a history of trying to deal with the complexity, either by focusing on yourself, or trying to engage with it in the various forms of literature regarding it. Unless you're conscientiously unplugged from social media (like my sibling is), I think you'll have perceptions that a lot of the people in your generation feel.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think if you aren't married by the time you're in your 30s, you have a side of you that's very doomer.

I don't take marriage seriously that is true. I will never get married partner or no partner. Just saying. Not because I don't believe in loyalty.
But when I am loyal a ring on my finger what make me more loyal or less.
I know that is a pointless tangent, just saying.
Marriage no longer serves the function it used.
People used to marry for reasons, that no longer exist in our modern society. Its a vestigial practice, that is purely symbolic and has not grounding in reality.
If you married in the past there were positive consequences to this, from the fact your community recognized your marriage, and there were also marriage proposals and family ties that were forged.
Today that is never the case, accept surface level bull.
At least the way I see it.

 

[ZenRaiden]

You also have a history of trying to deal with the complexity

yeah.

social media

Honestly I don't care about media anymore, and I think social media is a hook for many minds. Is this forum social media?
Is youtube social media?
I don't know. What I mean is that society has always had capacity to change.
We have the capacity to evolve that is almost infinite.
But as humanity progresses there are traps.
These traps will set humanity back every-time we fail. Like world wars did.
But they are generational traps.
They cost lives and generations of hurt.
Like cold war being the reward for fighting two world wars one after another.
Yet we don't seem to learn much about this.

 

[onesteptwostep]

My sibling doesn't use the internet ever, doesn't watch the news or use youtube for that matter. The only internet my sibling uses is for work, that's all. I think it's what keeps my sibling grounded a bit more than other people.

 

[ZenRaiden]

My sibling doesn't use the internet ever, doesn't watch the news or use youtube for that matter. The only internet my sibling uses is for work, that's all. I think it's what keeps my sibling grounded a bit more than other people.

Definitely.
Its not so much the internet.
Its just life has already too many distractions, and adding social media in moments where we don't have distractions causes our minds to lose tranquility altogether.

 

[Old Things]

I would not say I am a "Doomer." Whatever ill falls the human race, whether the Great Tribulation or other "birth pains" (as Apostle Paul calls them) I know my future is secure and that even if all hell breaks loose that God is still on my side. I don't know if all this will happen soon or in 1,000 years. God knows and I rest in that. The final resurrection promises hope for those who are in Christ. That's what my hope is in. The world is a cesspool. I'm not living for this world.

 

[onesteptwostep]

The world is a cesspool. I'm not living for this world.

Yup, you're a doomer.

 

[Old Things]

The world is a cesspool. I'm not living for this world.

Yup, you're a doomer.

LOL. Maybe so, but I still have plenty of purpose, joy, and peace.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I would not say I am a "Doomer." Whatever ill falls the human race, whether the Great Tribulation or other "birth pains" (as Apostle Paul calls them) I know my future is secure and that even if all hell breaks loose that God is still on my side. I don't know if all this will happen soon or in 1,000 years. God knows and I rest in that. The final resurrection promises hope for those who are in Christ. That's what my hope is in. The world is a cesspool. I'm not living for this world.

I don't know. But to be fair, people always expect the worst.
Every generation expects the end times, and things getting worse.
What tends to happen that end times don't come.

Mark Twain though warned about the modern times
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/86/86-h/86-h.htm#c43 ,

“Stand to your guns, men! Open fire!”


The thirteen gatlings began to vomit death into the fated ten thousand. They halted, they stood their ground a moment against that withering deluge of fire, then they broke, faced about and swept toward the ditch like chaff before a gale. A full fourth part of their force never reached the top of the lofty embankment; the three-fourths reached it and plunged over—to death by drowning.


Within ten short minutes after we had opened fire, armed resistance was totally annihilated, the campaign was ended, we fifty-four were masters of England. Twenty-five thousand men lay dead around us.

so did Charlie Chapplin in movies like

Modern Times (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

People are often perceptible to change, but often time when they don't know what will happen they grow desperate as life gets out of control.

 

[ZenRaiden]

To me if people could predict things in the past more or less we are at a tipping point where future is entirely outside of human control, and by that mean there is no philosophy or knowledge that will get us prepared for this century.

 

[Old Things]

I would not say I am a "Doomer." Whatever ill falls the human race, whether the Great Tribulation or other "birth pains" (as Apostle Paul calls them) I know my future is secure and that even if all hell breaks loose that God is still on my side. I don't know if all this will happen soon or in 1,000 years. God knows and I rest in that. The final resurrection promises hope for those who are in Christ. That's what my hope is in. The world is a cesspool. I'm not living for this world.

I don't know. But to be fair, people always expect the worst.
Every generation expects the end times, and things getting worse.
What tends to happen that end times don't come.

Mark Twain though warned about the modern times
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/86/86-h/86-h.htm#c43 ,

“Stand to your guns, men! Open fire!”


The thirteen gatlings began to vomit death into the fated ten thousand. They halted, they stood their ground a moment against that withering deluge of fire, then they broke, faced about and swept toward the ditch like chaff before a gale. A full fourth part of their force never reached the top of the lofty embankment; the three-fourths reached it and plunged over—to death by drowning.


Within ten short minutes after we had opened fire, armed resistance was totally annihilated, the campaign was ended, we fifty-four were masters of England. Twenty-five thousand men lay dead around us.

so did Charlie Chapplin in movies like

Modern Times (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

People are often perceptible to change, but often time when they don't know what will happen they grow desperate as life gets out of control.

I think what is clear, to me at least, is that the evil is more evil and the good is more good in the world today. For example, there is more slavery today than any other time in human history. But we also have people combatting this reality. There are true heroes in today's world as well as true villains.

Evil may be hidden, but it is not so hidden that if you look for it you will not find it. If evil was out in the open, then more people would condemn it. But it's in the dark web and other places. Sure, it's not hard to find, but it's not in the news either. And it's not like most of the public are "good people." The problem is a lot of people know about the evil that is hidden and do nothing because they don't want to get any backlash for standing up to evil.

Abortion, I think, is just as bad as the Holocaust. A mother's womb, which is supposed to be the safest place on earth for a child has become the most dangerous. And it's not like there is any debate about when life begins because it's unanimous that scientists know life begins at conception. Further, a fetus can feel pain at about 12 weeks. That's sometimes how long it takes to even know a woman is pregnant. Yet we sacrifice our young on the altar of self for personal gain. It's an absolute tragedy IMO.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I think what is clear, to me at least, is that the evil is more evil and the good is more good in the world today. For example, there is more slavery today than any other time in human history. But we also have people combatting this reality. There are true heroes in today's world as well as true villains.

I heard some guy on youtube explain money very well. Money does not make you a better person. It simply magnifies the person you already are.
I think the same goes for modern society and technology. It does not improve anything. Technology simply magnifies who we are as society.
So yes if we are bad, with technology we can be really evil.
Or very good. Its the same for every tool.

A mother's womb, which is supposed to be the safest place on earth for a child has become the most dangerous.

Mothers womb is safe, but society is not.
When I look at US as a paragon of virtue, they have veterans that are being treated as second class citizens, they buy products made by child slaves, they owe their wealth to China, they are society full of disease be it drugs or chemicals.
A society plagued by stress and uncertainty, and mothers who cannot afford to stay at home and take care of their babies, because its more important for them to grind so their kids can afford education, an education that does not teach them even how to run their life.
Let me tell you something orphans need love too. But they are treated like garbage and many are sick trough out life.
Life is not sacred, because we say so, life is sacred because we act like it.
If a mother wants to abort a child we might ask a better question, and that is why are mothers in a society that "provides" so quick to run to those abortion clinics.
I guess its not because they hate their kids. I think its more to do with fact, they cannot provide a loving home or security or future for their kids, and are ill prepared for having kids so they opt to abort them. I mean mothers that cannot even pull their own lives together cannot be expected to take care of children.
And this is not US exclusive problem. This is universal modern day problem.
People are trafficked and treated as commodities.
Even on job markets people are treated like garbage.
Adults in modern world cannot adult.

 

[Old Things]

I heard some guy on youtube explain money very well. Money does not make you a better person. It simply magnifies the person you already are.
I think the same goes for modern society and technology. It does not improve anything. Technology simply magnifies who we are as society.
So yes if we are bad, with technology we can be really evil.
Or very good. Its the same for every tool.

I honestly would not be surprised if the Ukraine war escalated to nuclear.

Mothers womb is safe, but society is not.
When I look at US as a paragon of virtue, they have veterans that are being treated as second class citizens, they buy products made by child slaves, they owe their wealth to China, they are society full of disease be it drugs or chemicals.
A society plagued by stress and uncertainty, and mothers who cannot afford to stay at home and take care of their babies, because its more important for them to grind so their kids can afford education, an education that does not teach them even how to run their life.
Let me tell you something orphans need love too. But they are treated like garbage and many are sick trough out life.
Life is not sacred, because we say so, life is sacred because we act like it.
If a mother wants to abort a child we might ask a better question, and that is why are mothers in a society that "provides" so quick to run to those abortion clinics.
I guess its not because they hate their kids. I think its more to do with fact, they cannot provide a loving home or security or future for their kids, and are ill prepared for having kids so they opt to abort them. I mean mothers that cannot even pull their own lives together cannot be expected to take care of children.
And this is not US exclusive problem. This is universal modern day problem.
People are trafficked and treated as commodities.
Even on job markets people are treated like garbage.
Adults in modern world cannot adult.

Yes. It is sad that many of these would-be mothers do not know that there are organizations that will bend over backwards to help them through their pregnancy and if they carry to term and give the child up for adoption that the mother would be cared for for quite a while. There are tons of resources for women who want what is best for them and their babies. For example, diapers can be provided for, food, and all sorts of stuff. Further, the organizations like Planned Parenthood are absolutely evil because they will never tell a woman about any of these helps that they can get. Their mission is literally to get women to have abortions. And it has been known for some time that the person who started Planned Parenthood was a bonafide racist who WANTED to eradicate the African American community (through abortion). At this point, even Planned Parenthood admits that fact. Not to mention all the talking points that abortionists used for so long do not count for anything anymore, such as that "it's just a clump of cells" or the child cannot feel pain in the abortion and many other things.

The absolute hypocrisy is that they will bring up situations such as if a mother is raped or something as a means to justify abortion and then when you say, "Okay, even if I grant you that a woman can have an abortion if they are raped, should we limit it to that?" and they will always default to, "It's not anyone's business why someone has an abortion." And the truth is that the vast majority of abortions are done with no reason given. Not because of rape, or incest, or because the mother's life is in jeopardy, but just because they did not want to be a mother.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I'm curious Old Things, if you support pro-life, do you also support just war theory?

 

[Old Things]

I'm curious Old Things, if you support pro-life, do you also support just war theory?

There are very few exceptions I think could constitute war. One of those is for a nation to defend itself if another country first goes to war with them. Beyond that, there are very few wars that I would think are justified. The US entering WWII would be an exception.

So my position is that war is to be avoided, but all too often, nations go to war for personal gain rather than it being a just war.

I would say one of the most complicated things regarding war in the last few years is how the US withdrew from Afghanistan. What we do know is that pulling out ended with some of the worst persecution Christians have faced ever.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I'm curious Old Things, if you support pro-life, do you also support just war theory?

There are very few exceptions I think could constitute war. One of those is for a nation to defend itself if another country first goes to war with them. Beyond that, there are very few wars that I would think are justified. The US entering WWII would be an exception.

So my position is that war is to be avoided, but all too often, nations go to war for personal gain rather than it being a just war.

I would say one of the most complicated things regarding war in the last few years is how the US withdrew from Afghanistan. What we do know is that pulling out ended with some of the worst persecution Christians have faced ever.

I think it sounds like if you think the war is just, then you are open to supporting that war.

I think you have an idea of where I'm going with this, my stance on abortion is that at the end of it, it ultimately comes down to the choice of the female. In all probability I probably wouldn't allow my wife to have an abortion because I probably wouldn't place myself anywhere near a situation where I would have to weigh those choices- but I would heavily be invested into the pregnency and then weigh and convey my own thoughts, and then allow my wife to make the choice. Then absolutely support and follow through with whatever decision she makes, as per my duty as a husband. But I would fight the government to the death if they want to interfere with our decision making process on the matter, especially on a matter that is life changingly consequencial. People have the right to believe whatever they want, but in no way can the government force me to act in such a way that binds my choices with emotional blackmail, whether or not that decree falls in line with my own personal convictions.

Pro-life isn't about lives of babies, it's about surrendering the ability to choose for ourselves- to take the agency for our own choices and mistakes.

I know some people that have aborted several times, some guys, and I tend to frown upon this behavior extremely deeply. However, given that they have chosen abortion multiple times, I wouldn't expect them to raise an upright family. It would be better to allow them that choice so that they can make their family when they can, when all the finances and their future is somewhat secure. In some ways I don't even want them to have kids at all, given what I see in them.

In short you can say that I'm pro-family rather than pro-life. If you were pro-life, any war that you may support goes against this principle. Remember, it is not only the unjust that die in the war, countless civilians lose their lives in the process, perhaps even their livelihoods and way of life. Social groupings such as the family, the community, the nation and even the church, can sometimes be worth more than a single individual life. Being able to judge for yourself what is just in those situations is what differenciates one who is headstrong and responsible, to those who make naive decisions thinking that they are God themselves. The issue of abortion is just another reminder of how fragil humanity is and that sometimes we need Solomonic wisdom, not legality.

 

[ZenRaiden]

I honestly would not be surprised if the Ukraine war escalated to nuclear.

Ukraine is like a black Friday for Russia and US.
No one is nuking anyone over a 90 percent discount console.

People like Putin and Hawks in US tend to turn into psychopaths when it comes to turning a blind eye to suffering and mining gold.
They have done this a million times over before.
Honorable mentions are Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan.
They would rather kill all Ukrainians than nuke each other.
And moron ignorant fools go fight for these mental imps.
And the Lord saw it was bad, and it was indeed bad.
Its that simple. You do not need a moral compass or mental gymnastics to know what is wrong.

 

[Old Things]

Pro-life isn't about lives of babies, it's about surrendering the ability to choose for ourselves- to take the agency for our own choices and mistakes.

Completely 100% wrong.

 

[scorpiomover]

By 2018, 4chan users had begun creating Wojak caricatures with the -oomer suffix, derived from "boomer", to mock various groups online. One of these caricatures was "Doomers", 20-somethings who had "simply stopped trying".[4] The meme first appeared on 4chan's /r9k/ board in September 2018.[4] The image typically depicts the Wojak character in a beanie, smoking a cigarette. "Doomer" themed playlists, featuring this wojak along with slowed down music edits (often involving post-punk or rock) reached popularity on Youtube, especially during the Covid-19 lockdowns. The archetype often embodies nihilism and despair, with a belief in the incipient end of the world to causes ranging from climate apocalypse to peak oil to (more locally) opioid addiction.[5] Kaitlyn Tiffany writes in The Atlantic that the doomer meme depicts young men who "are no longer pursuing friendships or relationships, and get no joy from anything because they know that the world is coming to an end."[4]

I was watching memes to cheer me up and I read up on this wojak doomer thing and realized I became accidentally a doomer according to memes.

Even 20 years ago, there were a lot of men who were described like this, in the UK, the USA, and Japan. Now, it's much more prevalent.

I don't believe humanity will collapse, but rather deflate a little and if extinction comes humanity will simply fizzle out in like 10 000 years or something.

We are in a fall of civilisation. The species has been around for 200,000 years. Even if it took us 10,000 years to rediscover everything in civilisation that we have now, we have still had time to restart civilisation 20 times. So I suspect that this is the #20 incarnation of our civilisation.

I really don't believe we are in the end times, though we are in a strange place as society, the strangest yet.
We have everything, yet we are lacking.
We have modern medicine yet we are often sick even from stress.
We work often to point of burnouts yet we often lack things in life even financially.
We have billions of people yet many people have relationships problems me included.
We have good conditions for things yet we tend to have broken homes and families.
We have more than enough yet we fight like crazy for resources like its 500 BC or something.

Interesting perspective: that we have modern medicine, and yet we are often sick. It's like we have the potential for plenty of food, great health, great relationships, great families, and everything else we might want. But we don't have the results.

The potential of humanity is not being actualised.

 

[ZenRaiden]

The potential of humanity is not being actualised.

Yes our calories be it body or brain are turned into no power.
The machine turns, but never gives outputs. But Zizek has given a solution to this long time ago.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Pro-life isn't about lives of babies, it's about surrendering the ability to choose for ourselves- to take the agency for our own choices and mistakes.

Completely 100% wrong.

That's the political outcome.

 

[Old Things]

Pro-life isn't about lives of babies, it's about surrendering the ability to choose for ourselves- to take the agency for our own choices and mistakes.

Completely 100% wrong.

That's the political outcome.

You had a choice when you had sex.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Pro-life isn't about lives of babies, it's about surrendering the ability to choose for ourselves- to take the agency for our own choices and mistakes.

Completely 100% wrong.

That's the political outcome.

You had a choice when you had sex.

Everyone does, but not everyone is inoculated with the same conception about sex. I grew up in a Christian household, but those who haven't, were grown up with notions that had a secularized notion of sex via the common culture. The problem for me is the vast liberalization of sexuality. People don't have certain perceptions out of nowhere.

Abortion legislation is a poor way of covering up for the cultural failure that America faces, the issue goes much deeper than that.

 

[ZenRaiden]

You had a choice when you had sex.

This implies that people have control of their sex drive.
If they do not that means they will have sex and kids when least expected.
Or it means people are lazy and don't want to control their sex drive.
It also implies that since not having sex implies a risk of having kids, that people who can have sex should have it under the condition of possibility of having kids.
Which could lead to situations like 30 year or 40 year olds having sex for the very first time, because that is where some demographics have kids.
It would also mean that 15 year olds with raging hormones would have to be trained what their bodies do to them and to their mind in order to suppress sex drive.
The only sure fire way to suppress sex drive that I know of is rape or sexual abuse, or specific yoga methods that are never trained.
I don't think the bible includes the section on what to do when you are sexually deprived. Yoga does. But no one teaches you how your body responds to sexual deprivation. So maybe what you want people to do is avoid sex or have just oral and anal and non penetrative sex? And stimulate the vagina with plastic to avoid sperm.
Which is possible.
But the longer I live and know humans, I never gotten the impression we can control sex drive.
What we can do snip the ovaries and balls.
It also does not account for about 60 percent of people who get sexual abused become sexually promiscuous people.

 

[scorpiomover]

To me if people could predict things in the past more or less we are at a tipping point where future is entirely outside of human control, and by that mean there is no philosophy or knowledge that will get us prepared for this century.

Disagree. We have much more technology now. Technology is all about doing what we want, i.e. increasing our control over reality, which increases human control.

E.G. You didn't need to be a genius to figure out that Putin would not just give in, and neither would NATO.

What we have nowadays, is more and more journalists, politicians & scientists claiming the future is more unpredictable, and talking about world events as if no-one has a clue. This is making more and more people think that they might be right.

But even if they're not right and the future is predictable, modern society is arranged in such a way that individuals don't do much anymore. Everything is done by the government, or a corporation or an organisation. So people feel like there's nothing they can do anyway.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Disagree. We have much more technology now. Technology is all about doing what we want, i.e. increasing our control over reality, which increases human control.

E.G. You didn't need to be a genius to figure out that Putin would not just give in, and neither would NATO.

What we have nowadays, is more and more journalists, politicians & scientists claiming the future is more unpredictable, and talking about world events as if no-one has a clue. This is making more and more people think that they might be right.

But even if they're not right and the future is predictable, modern society is arranged in such a way that individuals don't do much anymore. Everything is done by the government, or a corporation or an organisation. So people feel like there's nothing they can do anyway.

Yeah pretty much true.
But people rarely talk about beliefs. Like normal people see journalism and politics as a function of society that actual does solve problems.
So even trans people act like political activist when we know that Trump nor Hillary will ever solve anything like racism, or women rights or trans population minority problems.
And if you walk outside and you know from TV that everyone believes bullshit you are bound to think for yourself, but not rock the boat, because you know what people are thinking. Ergo what journalists said or so and so presented on TV.

So I think a lot of conflated issues with politics and societal issues processed by media, but what Zizek says is true, we actually don't talk people to people.
And when we do its you and me on this forum. Which is precisely what Zizek means.
Social discourse is missing. Even Jordan Peterson pointed this out.
There is no societal cohesion, just divisive nature of todays media. Which will always be divisive because its easy to mock people on TV and rescue them and make everyone believe the world revolves around news articles.

 

[Old Things]

But the longer I live and know humans, I never gotten the impression we can control sex drive.

That is because we live in a sex-driven culture. There used to be a lot more people who waited to have sex until they were married. But because of the sexual revolution of the 60s we have been on a downward trend of saying it is bad to repress your sex drive. The problem with the sexual revolution is that it opens up a pandora's box on what sexual practices we will not tolerate with the envelope always being pushed to stranger and stranger sexual practices. The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

 

[Black Rose]

The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Puberty happens at age 12 and during the middle ages, 14 was the average age to have kids in Europe. It was not until after the plague when almost all the peasant farmers died that the nobility reproduced in such large quantities that the average age of having kids rose to age 22 in the 16 hundreds. The average age to lose your virginity in America today is age 17. 13 percent of adults ages 22 to 24 today are virgins. It is a myth that all people are sex addicts. That is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

 

[Old Things]

The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Puberty happens at age 12 and during the middle ages, 14 was the average age to have kids in Europe. It was not until after the plague when almost all the peasant farmers died that the nobility reproduced in such large quantities that the average age of having kids rose to age 22 in the 16 hundreds. The average age to lose your virginity in America today is age 17. 13 percent of adults ages 22 to 24 today are virgins. It is a myth that all people are sex addicts. That is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I'm not saying that all people are sex addicts. I'm saying we live in a sex-driven culture. You can hardly watch a PG-13 movie without some soft-porn-type stuff in it anymore.

 

[Black Rose]

The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Puberty happens at age 12 and during the middle ages, 14 was the average age to have kids in Europe. It was not until after the plague when almost all the peasant farmers died that the nobility reproduced in such large quantities that the average age of having kids rose to age 22 in the 16 hundreds. The average age to lose your virginity in America today is age 17. 13 percent of adults ages 22 to 24 today are virgins. It is a myth that all people are sex addicts. That is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I'm not saying that all people are sex addicts. I'm saying we live in a sex-driven culture. You can hardly watch a PG-13 movie without some soft-porn-type stuff in it anymore.

I am simply confused by what you mean by "natural" and to what degree/rate this is happening. Sure some people will do it but you act like it's the norm and that people will do it just because they can. That is not the case IMO because people have more common sense than that. How many people are eunuchs for example: not many.

 

[Old Things]

The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Puberty happens at age 12 and during the middle ages, 14 was the average age to have kids in Europe. It was not until after the plague when almost all the peasant farmers died that the nobility reproduced in such large quantities that the average age of having kids rose to age 22 in the 16 hundreds. The average age to lose your virginity in America today is age 17. 13 percent of adults ages 22 to 24 today are virgins. It is a myth that all people are sex addicts. That is at the extreme end of the spectrum.

I'm not saying that all people are sex addicts. I'm saying we live in a sex-driven culture. You can hardly watch a PG-13 movie without some soft-porn-type stuff in it anymore.

I am simply confused by what you mean by "natural" and to what degree/rate this is happening. Sure some people will do it but you act like it's the norm and that people will do it just because they can. That is not the case IMO because people have more common sense than that. How many people are eunuchs for example: not many.

My point is that sex is sensationalized in the West today. That's all I'm saying. There are 13-year-old girls who get pregnant. It happens all the time. It may not be the majority, but it's easy to see based on the sex-driven culture that we live in today that it can and does happen. Women are waiting to get married until they are in their 30s but they are not waiting to have sex. On OKCupid you can hardly find a woman who is willing to wait to have sex until after marriage--even Christian women. And the Bible calls that fornication, which is a sin. The Bible (which some people obviously don't care about and I will not force them to care about it) says sex is for a monogamous heterosexual marriage. That is the way God intends for us to have sex under that context. So people can have sex before marriage if they are not a Christian and I don't care. But when you start killing babies because you had sex that's where I draw the line.

 

[Black Rose]

So people can have sex before marriage if they are not a Christian and I don't care. But when you start killing babies because you had sex that's where I draw the line.

I understand but as my neighbor said:

We will be raptured and the antichrist will take control then Jesus will come.

In that case, Jesus will stop all abortions.

But if Jesus does not come in the way people think he will it will be a long long time until things change.

I was told from age 12 the rapture would happen but I would not be surprised if it did not. I was told the antichrist would kill all Christians in the tribulation but I am sure anymore.

But if one thing is true of God, all aborted babies will be in heaven.

 

[ZenRaiden]

That is because we live in a sex-driven culture. There used to be a lot more people who waited to have sex until they were married. But because of the sexual revolution of the 60s we have been on a downward trend of saying it is bad to repress your sex drive. The problem with the sexual revolution is that it opens up a pandora's box on what sexual practices we will not tolerate with the envelope always being pushed to stranger and stranger sexual practices. The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Pandoras box means at the end there is hope.
It actually is a positive thing.
When it comes to sex its important to procreate.
You can also create a asexual culture.
But the reason we don't is we don't function as humans well when we are repressed.
Something Jesus did not have a problem with is sex, since by the time you were 15 you were full time farmer and working the land with wife and maybe even kids.

Today kids at 15 are dealing with school and pokemon and TV and internet, and games, and leading relatively sexless life.

Jesus was dealing with a different demographic. Demographic of people who lived a different life. People who at 15 were starting adult life and paying taxes and had nothing much more to learn by that age.

 

[Old Things]

So people can have sex before marriage if they are not a Christian and I don't care. But when you start killing babies because you had sex that's where I draw the line.

I understand but as my neighbor said:

We will be raptured and the antichrist will take control then Jesus will come.

In that case, Jesus will stop all abortions.

But if Jesus does not come in the way people think he will it will be a long long time until things change.

I was told from age 12 the rapture would happen but I would not be surprised if it did not. I was told the antichrist would kill all Christians in the tribulation but I am sure anymore.

But if one thing is true of God, all aborted babies will be in heaven.

I personally do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture. I think God will do more good and wicked will get more wicked as time goes on up to the Lord's return. The way I see it is there will be more Christians in the world, but there will also be more persecution of Christians in the world. It will function much like Nigeria where the dominant religion is Christianity but it ranks very near if not the top for violence against Christians.

That is because we live in a sex-driven culture. There used to be a lot more people who waited to have sex until they were married. But because of the sexual revolution of the 60s we have been on a downward trend of saying it is bad to repress your sex drive. The problem with the sexual revolution is that it opens up a pandora's box on what sexual practices we will not tolerate with the envelope always being pushed to stranger and stranger sexual practices. The problem is once we start letting children (teens) have sex then we start allowing all sorts of stuff that is completely unnatural.

Pandoras box means at the end there is hope.
It actually is a positive thing.
When it comes to sex its important to procreate.
You can also create a asexual culture.
But the reason we don't is we don't function as humans well when we are repressed.
Something Jesus did not have a problem with is sex, since by the time you were 15 you were full time farmer and working the land with wife and maybe even kids.

Today kids at 15 are dealing with school and pokemon and TV and internet, and games, and leading relatively sexless life.

Jesus was dealing with a different demographic. Demographic of people who lived a different life. People who at 15 were starting adult life and paying taxes and had nothing much more to learn by that age.

You are aware that Jesus lived till he was about 33 years old and he never had sex once in His life, right? He did not make any comment about how old people were when they had sex one way or another. What he did say is that sex is for monogamous heterosexual marriage.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I wouldn't go as far as the sexual revolution that America went through. I primarily see a problem within consumer culture that uses sex or sex appeal to sell their products. As far as I'm concerned, within the current cultural landscape of America, banning abortion would cause incredible political and social damage, which I honestly think will take decades if not a lifetime to heal. Also abortion is not for kids in their mid twenties who messed up with contraceptives, it's usually married couples who already have 2 or 3 kids, and they had another child by accident when they're in their 50s or later.

There's also the issue of state rights: I'm all for smaller states having the ability to ban abortion if they vote to do so, but when you leave the demographic numbers of, let's say 5 million, it's ludcrius to assume that all 5 million people have the same orientation towards abortion as everyone else. The midwest, some southern states should have the right to ban abortion, but states like Florida, Texas or Georgia should not be trying to ram a policy through sectarian means. Trying to use the law to change cultural attitudes towards sex is simply totalitarian- tyranny, full stop. If you have to use the law to enact change, you've already lost the cultural war and have not raised your voices when the signs were coming.

There was a time in South Korea where if you showed your knees as a female, you would be arrested for indecent dressing. The law isn't the solution for cultural attitudes, and this goes for both sides of the cultural spectrum. (Gay rights for one, I think was extremely premature for American society).

 

[ZenRaiden]

You are aware that Jesus lived till he was about 33 years old and he never had sex once in His life, right?

I am aware of it, because that what was written about him. Not everyone needs to act like Jesus for the world to go around. That is my take on the whole issue.

He did not make any comment about how old people were when they had sex one way or another.

He did not, and he was not a historian or a scientist. His job was living with people and telling them what to do and not to do. If I understand correctly his job was done 2023 years ago. At least in person.

What he did say is that sex is for monogamous heterosexual marriage.

And horses, jellyfish, porcupines elephants, fish, amphibians and even plants.
None of them married once. Yet somehow they manage.
Who knew.

One thing I trust humans will be humans no matter what century.
Don't get me wrong, I respect people who want to put marriage and loyalty before sex. Its not something Id do, because I truly cannot imagine how Id pull it off.
But its kind of weird to me that we are at 15 raging with hormones and we live in a world where you are told you know nothing about life at 25.
Which is usually the age people are still told they are too young to understand.
My parents lived in a generation where they told me that a woman at 25 was too old to marry. They are one generation down from me and that is just crazy.
I don't want to know what people though about this stuff in 0AD, but honestly I am sure it would have zero application today.

 

[Old Things]

Also abortion is not for kids in their mid twenties who messed up with contraceptives, it's usually married couples who already have 2 or 3 kids, and they had another child by accident when they're in their 50s or later.

That might be true for your country, but the vast majority of abortions in the US (like especially in NYC and Chicago and such) are from single women who messed up by having sex and now do not want to be a mother. Many of them are African Americans (who abortion was originally aimed towards because of Planned Parenthood which I have talked about). I think it is either NYC or Chicago that more African American pregnancies end in abortion than birth. It's something like 60% of pregnancies for African Americans end in abortion, often single women who are not married. Your stat might be worldwide, but the stat does not hold for the US.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Also abortion is not for kids in their mid twenties who messed up with contraceptives, it's usually married couples who already have 2 or 3 kids, and they had another child by accident when they're in their 50s or later.

That might be true for your country, but the vast majority of abortions in the US (like especially in NYC and Chicago and such) are from single women who messed up by having sex and now do not want to be a mother. Many of them are African Americans (who abortion was originally aimed towards because of Planned Parenthood which I have talked about). I think it is either NYC or Chicago that more African American pregnancies end in abortion than birth. It's something like 60% of pregnancies for African Americans end in abortion, often single women who are not married. Your stat might be worldwide, but the stat does not hold for the US.

Do you have statistics to back this up?

 

[Old Things]

Also abortion is not for kids in their mid twenties who messed up with contraceptives, it's usually married couples who already have 2 or 3 kids, and they had another child by accident when they're in their 50s or later.

That might be true for your country, but the vast majority of abortions in the US (like especially in NYC and Chicago and such) are from single women who messed up by having sex and now do not want to be a mother. Many of them are African Americans (who abortion was originally aimed towards because of Planned Parenthood which I have talked about). I think it is either NYC or Chicago that more African American pregnancies end in abortion than birth. It's something like 60% of pregnancies for African Americans end in abortion, often single women who are not married. Your stat might be worldwide, but the stat does not hold for the US.

Do you have statistics to back this up?

Most of the reasons given are that they do not want to be a mother for any number of reasons (financial, emotional reasons, already have children and don't want more etc.). Few of the reasons given are what I would call a legitimate reason to end the life of their baby. And that is what the debate should be about is if the fetus is alive. Because if the fetus is alive, then an abortion is literally killing the baby.

 

[ZenRaiden]

Most of the reasons given are that they do not want to be a mother for any number of reasons (financial, emotional reasons, already have children and don't want more etc.). Few of the reasons given are what I would call a legitimate reason to end the life of their baby. And that is what the debate should be about is if the fetus is alive. Because if the fetus is alive, then an abortion is literally killing the baby.

One thing I never understood about Christianity is that they are well versed in human psychology in the most upfront way possible.

But let me layout a pattern for you and think about it and tell me what you see.

Drugs kill people. Drug epidemic.
Sex leads to unwanted pregnancy. People have sex.
Drinking and driving is dangerous. People still do it.
Alcoholism leads to bad life. People drink like crazy.
Sitting in front of TV kills your IQ.
Smoking gives you cancer. People don't care.
Even Confucius was powerless about alcoholism and he was trying to stop it thousands of years ago.
None of these problems ever changed for humanity, and Christianity did not put a single dent in this stuff.

You know why tobacco companies don't care about anti cigarette campaigns?
Once you figure it out, you might understand why abortions simply not going to change peoples motivation.

Motive is sometimes more important than the behavior.
But if the motive is there?....... you feeling me bro?
We just reach for the cookie like kids do.....
All these problems have one problem in common. And they do have a solution.

 

[Old Things]

Most of the reasons given are that they do not want to be a mother for any number of reasons (financial, emotional reasons, already have children and don't want more etc.). Few of the reasons given are what I would call a legitimate reason to end the life of their baby. And that is what the debate should be about is if the fetus is alive. Because if the fetus is alive, then an abortion is literally killing the baby.

One thing I never understood about Christianity is that they are well versed in human psychology in the most upfront way possible.

But let me layout a pattern for you and think about it and tell me what you see.

Drugs kill people. Drug epidemic.
Sex leads to unwanted pregnancy. People have sex.
Drinking and driving is dangerous. People still do it.
Alcoholism leads to bad life. People drink like crazy.
Sitting in front of TV kills your IQ.
Smoking gives you cancer. People don't care.
Even Confucius was powerless about alcoholism and he was trying to stop it thousands of years ago.
None of these problems ever changed for humanity, and Christianity did not put a single dent in this stuff.

You know why tobacco companies don't care about anti cigarette campaigns?
Once you figure it out, you might understand why abortions simply not going to change peoples motivation.

Motive is sometimes more important than the behavior.
But if the motive is there?....... you feeling me bro?
We just reach for the cookie like kids do.....
All these problems have one problem in common. And they do have a solution.

Yes, motivation is very important. That is the root cause. Fix the motivation and you fix the problem.

You say Christianity has not made any dent at all whatsoever, but there are things that children who are raised in a Christian family do not do that children who live in a secular family simply would not have a problem with.

There is a verse about raising children that I think sheds light on this phenomenon.

Spoiler: Proverbs 22:6

"Start a youth out on his way;
even when he grows old he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6)

The point is that how a child is raised has a massive impact on what that child will and will not do later in life. That is why the men who commit more crimes come from fatherless families. I have a friend who lives where I do and who grew up in Chicago. He was raised in the inner city. Yet he has never been to jail or anything like that. He was raised by a Christian family who had strong convictions about their faith. And that led to him not ever going to jail even though he is 40 years old at this point. He did not get into gangs and follow the same path that so many young people do from that area of the US. His upbringing had an effect on his life in a drastic way. So at least in his case, because his family were Christians with strong convictions, he never went to jail when probably a lot of people he knew growing up are either in prison or dead due to gang violence.

So I would be careful about saying that Christianity does nothing to prevent people from doing wrong things. Of course, there are problems on the other side of that as well. A family can be so strict with their children that the child rebels and does the opposite of what their parents want them to do. So there is a balance. What would be that balance, you might ask? Love. When a child is in a loving family, this has a tremendous effect on how that child will turn out. Being too strict is just legalism. But being too loose will cause other problems.

 

[ZenRaiden]

So I would be careful about saying that Christianity does nothing to prevent people from doing wrong things. Of course, there are problems on the other side of that as well. A family can be so strict with their children that the child rebels and does the opposite of what their parents want them to do. So there is a balance. What would be that balance, you might ask? Love. When a child is in a loving family, this has a tremendous effect on how that child will turn out. Being too strict is just legalism. But being too loose will cause other problems.

Exactly what I was going to say. We tend to focus on the fear part, but not the love part. But stopping abortion is the fear part. We don't actually focus on the part where we change the heart. We focus on the part where we change the behavior.
But changing the behavior by virtue of fear works only as long as the fear exists.
I mean honestly this is why Christianity is losing today. A lot of people just talk about sin and fear of God. Frankly its off putting and depressing.
Not that I don't get it. But the part of where people actually feel good about themselves is missing. People should avoid abortion and feel good about it.
People should have kids and feel good about it. People should marry and feel good about it.
Down the line the feeling has to be there for people to run their course.

 

[Black Rose]

The way I see it is there will be more Christians in the world, but there will also be more persecution of Christians in the world. It will function much like Nigeria where the dominant religion is Christianity but it ranks very near if not the top for violence against Christians.

It's something like 60% of pregnancies for African Americans end in abortion, often single women who are not married.

Supposedly the least violent areas of the planet are Japan and South Korea. Their demographics are shrinking but it is safe to be any religion there you want.

Africa is a terrible place, maybe worse than the cartel in Mexico. And in Europe, I see many flag burnings by people moving in from abroad. But in the united states, I do not see why people would get angry at Christians there unlike in Europe because of demographics. As I see it only Europe would be affected the most. The number of conservative Christians in the US is increasing I think. So world wide I am not sure what would cause persecution more so than it already is (besides Europe).

As no one really knows what kind of Christianity is the correct kind maybe the government would think to persecute some Christian group but I do not know. They would need to cause problems for anything like mass suppression to be implemented. As mass survivance happens it will be incredibly unlikely mass persecution will be tolerated in the West. Because mass persecution leads to the mass adoption of the religion "Christianity". "Christianity" is antifragile. It would need to fizzle out to a small enough section of the public to be wiped out. Which is not the case in the US. So I only see Europe as the source of moral corruption possible because of the covid lockdowns. And if Europe becomes an enemy of the US again then we will see mass persecutions. But this will take decades.

My point is that the government will be led by the people and the people will decide who is protected. So Africa is a poor example because there the governments are not really that good. The US government will keep people from doing major crimes in certain states and if the others do not they will implode. But the other states will see what is happening and Congress will act. Most of all technology will be used by them because it makes sense to keep people from fighting. If the US weakens from within then we will be destroyed but that means the government must keep everything secure. Consequences exist for a system that does not protect ALL citizens. Persecution would lead to radical activity.

 

[Old Things]

So I would be careful about saying that Christianity does nothing to prevent people from doing wrong things. Of course, there are problems on the other side of that as well. A family can be so strict with their children that the child rebels and does the opposite of what their parents want them to do. So there is a balance. What would be that balance, you might ask? Love. When a child is in a loving family, this has a tremendous effect on how that child will turn out. Being too strict is just legalism. But being too loose will cause other problems.

Exactly what I was going to say. We tend to focus on the fear part, but not the love part. But stopping abortion is the fear part. We don't actually focus on the part where we change the heart. We focus on the part where we change the behavior.
But changing the behavior by virtue of fear works only as long as the fear exists.
I mean honestly this is why Christianity is losing today. A lot of people just talk about sin and fear of God. Frankly its off putting and depressing.
Not that I don't get it. But the part of where people actually feel good about themselves is missing. People should avoid abortion and feel good about it.
People should have kids and feel good about it. People should marry and feel good about it.
Down the line the feeling has to be there for people to run their course.

My motivation is not to cause fear in people regarding abortion. It's simply that I think a fetus is alive and as such does not deserve to be killed.

I think what you have said captures the way a lot of people view Christians in general. Most of that is based on myths but some of it is right. There are sectors of Christianity that focus on fear-mongering and such, but this is not what the tenets of Christianity is based on. Just read the New Testament to see how much it is about loving your neighbor. So yes, there are sectors of Christianity that focus on controlling behavior by fear. But this is probably not what most of Christianity is based on--at least where I live. It might be different in the Bible Belt. Independent Fundamentalist Baptists have done a lot of harm regarding Christianity. Stephen Anderson and his preaching is glorified hate speech and I in no way condone what he does or people like him. A lot of people have the idea that Christians use fear to control people, but what is this actually based on? Statistics show that Christianity is in large part good for people. But the media portrays Christians as being judgmental and hateful bigots. Now, there are Christians who are judgmental hateful bigots, but most of these complaints come from the most extreme cases of how Christianity is abused by power-hungry people and leaves out a lot of Christians who honestly just want to be good people. Of course, I have my doubts about how many Christians actually live out a Christian ethos. I'd guess few actually care much about Christ's words to "love your enemies." They care as much about their finances and retiring at a good age as secular people. Their motives are not good a lot of the time. And you are right that changing the motives of people is difficult. But it's not humans changing behavior that changes people like you say. It is when people feel the love of God and are moved by God's grace in their lives to live in the way Christ wants them to. So in this way, it is a lot like revival. And revival starts with the individual before it spreads to the church. And revival spreads to the church before it spreads to the culture. And it spreads to the culture before it spreads to politics. So IMO, how the problem gets fixed by a revival. There have been revivals in the past that were so powerful that they had to lay off a ton of police officers because crime was so well controlled. That is what I strive towards.

The way I see it is there will be more Christians in the world, but there will also be more persecution of Christians in the world. It will function much like Nigeria where the dominant religion is Christianity but it ranks very near if not the top for violence against Christians.

It's something like 60% of pregnancies for African Americans end in abortion, often single women who are not married.

Supposedly the least violent areas of the planet are Japan and South Korea. Their demographics are shrinking but it is safe to be any religion there you want.

Africa is a terrible place, maybe worse than the cartel in Mexico. And in Europe, I see many flag burnings by people moving in from abroad. But in the united states, I do not see why people would get angry at Christians there unlike in Europe because of demographics. As I see it only Europe would be affected the most. The number of conservative Christians in the US is increasing I think. So world wide I am not sure what would cause persecution more so than it already is (besides Europe).

As no one really knows what kind of Christianity is the correct kind maybe the government would think to persecute some Christian group but I do not know. They would need to cause problems for anything like mass suppression to be implemented. As mass survivance happens it will be incredibly unlikely mass persecution will be tolerated in the West. Because mass persecution leads to the mass adoption of the religion "Christianity". "Christianity" is antifragile. It would need to fizzle out to a small enough section of the public to be wiped out. Which is not the case in the US. So I only see Europe as the source of moral corruption possible because of the covid lockdowns. And if Europe becomes an enemy of the US again then we will see mass persecutions. But this will take decades.

My point is that the government will be led by the people and the people will decide who is protected. So Africa is a poor example because there the governments are not really that good. The US government will keep people from doing major crimes in certain states and if the others do not they will implode. But the other states will see what is happening and Congress will act. Most of all technology will be used by them because it makes sense to keep people from fighting. If the US weakens from within then we will be destroyed but that means the government must keep everything secure. Consequences exist for a system that does not protect ALL citizens. Persecution would lead to radical activity.

IDK what kind of timeframe would be when persecution would rise in the US. What I do know is that Christianity has been on the decline for decades in the US. There are some projections that the number of people identifying as Christian in the US will be about 35% by 2070. That is not that far away. Unless, of course, a revival comes to the US, which is entirely possible and we may be in the beginning stages of revival in the US right now.

 

[ZenRaiden]

My motivation is not to cause fear in people regarding abortion. It's simply that I think a fetus is alive and as such does not deserve to be killed.

I honestly understood that from get go. I think actually most mothers do care about their unborn children. But I think most of the mothers that do go to abortion are full of fear or depressed, or desensitized women who have very little capacity to care for kids and they feel that way and they are fearful and insecure. Thats in my humble opinion the mothers instincts cannot be obliterated if the mother is in full facutly of mind. Because mother instinct is the strongest instinct in whole nature. There aint nothing stronger. So if women don't feel it - there is something fundamentally fucked up in their life. And that usually cannot be remedied in few bible sessions or few verses. That usually requires a major life change and major soul searching. Society that produces these types of mothers is inherently sick. And I do not mean mothers who get accidentally prego. I mean mothers who just gave up totally. And that really says something about what is going on in their life.
I think mothers that have sense of community will have kids even if they feel insecure or without money or lacking. Because the sense of community means that if the mother dies the kids get taken care of.
Unfortunately we live in society where mothers know, if they fail, their kids are done with life. And that prospect freaks any good mother out of their mind.

That is what I strive towards.

That is freaking awesome. Not gonna be a Christian, but I like you, because I think we see through the same lens. Even if idealistic.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Asking whether the fetus is alive doesn't put to rest the issue of abortion. Whether we put the fetus into a labeled category, those who seek abortion will have the abortion. The issue here isn't about labeling the fetus a certain category, it's the poor programs that keep the rate of unwanted pregnancies high. If there is an abortion 'epidemic' it would be understandable that abortions would be banned, but it isn't the case here. Trying to influence a certain group of people at the expense of the larger populace is an utterly terrible way of trying to achieve what you want. Denying the free right of an individual by mandating it by law is not a wise method to creating a prosperous society. Society building takes care and careful planning that needs decades to work. What you're proposing is what dictators do to bend society to one's own will. By this point it isn't even about abortion anymore, it's about individual rights. Perceptions take time to change, mandating it by law is not what good people do.

 

[Old Things]

Asking whether the fetus is alive doesn't put to rest the issue of abortion. Whether we put the fetus into a labeled category, those who seek abortion will have the abortion. The issue here isn't about labeling the fetus a certain category, it's the poor programs that keep the rate of unwanted pregnancies high. If there is an abortion 'epidemic' it would be understandable that abortions would be banned, but it isn't the case here. Trying to influence a certain group of people at the expense of the larger populace is an utterly terrible way of trying to achieve what you want. Denying the free right of an individual by mandating it by law is not a wise method to creating a prosperous society. Society building takes care and careful planning that needs decades to work. What you're proposing is what dictators do to bend society to one's own will. By this point it isn't even about abortion anymore, it's about individual rights. Perceptions take time to change, mandating it by law is not what good people do.

We have laws against murder. Do you think criminalizing murderers is only necessary if there is a murder epidemic?

 

[Old Things]

My motivation is not to cause fear in people regarding abortion. It's simply that I think a fetus is alive and as such does not deserve to be killed.

I honestly understood that from get go. I think actually most mothers do care about their unborn children. But I think most of the mothers that do go to abortion are full of fear or depressed, or desensitized women who have very little capacity to care for kids and they feel that way and they are fearful and insecure. Thats in my humble opinion the mothers instincts cannot be obliterated if the mother is in full facutly of mind. Because mother instinct is the strongest instinct in whole nature. There aint nothing stronger. So if women don't feel it - there is something fundamentally fucked up in their life. And that usually cannot be remedied in few bible sessions or few verses. That usually requires a major life change and major soul searching. Society that produces these types of mothers is inherently sick. And I do not mean mothers who get accidentally prego. I mean mothers who just gave up totally. And that really says something about what is going on in their life.
I think mothers that have sense of community will have kids even if they feel insecure or without money or lacking. Because the sense of community means that if the mother dies the kids get taken care of.
Unfortunately we live in society where mothers know, if they fail, their kids are done with life. And that prospect freaks any good mother out of their mind.

That is what I strive towards.

That is freaking awesome. Not gonna be a Christian, but I like you, because I think we see through the same lens. Even if idealistic.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Asking whether the fetus is alive doesn't put to rest the issue of abortion. Whether we put the fetus into a labeled category, those who seek abortion will have the abortion. The issue here isn't about labeling the fetus a certain category, it's the poor programs that keep the rate of unwanted pregnancies high. If there is an abortion 'epidemic' it would be understandable that abortions would be banned, but it isn't the case here. Trying to influence a certain group of people at the expense of the larger populace is an utterly terrible way of trying to achieve what you want. Denying the free right of an individual by mandating it by law is not a wise method to creating a prosperous society. Society building takes care and careful planning that needs decades to work. What you're proposing is what dictators do to bend society to one's own will. By this point it isn't even about abortion anymore, it's about individual rights. Perceptions take time to change, mandating it by law is not what good people do.

We have laws against murder. Do you think criminalizing murderers is only necessary if there is a murder epidemic?

That's a poor understanding of what murder is and a false equivalence of the two. Murder usually entails great hatred or some kind of violence via passion. Abortion doesn't happen because we deliberately distaste the baby, it comes from extreme emotional determination that doesn't come lightly. There's regret, there's pain, there's suffering when one chooses the way of abortion, because if circumstances had been better, they could have had the child. Trivializing abortion as murder doesn't seem like an argument that's rooted in clarity, it seems like you're just lashing out because you cannot make a case for banning abortion, only that it conflicts with your convictions.

I think you're not digesting my stance on abortion in a nunaced way so I'll try to outline some common ground with you before continuing.

Abortion I think is a moral bad, this I think we can both agree on.
The fetus is a living thing, this is another contention which I also believe, so common ground there.
Unwanted pregnancies are something we both don't want (at least I hope you do) so a commonality there as well.

I think from here we disagree on the implementation of our belief onto society.

From what read from you is that it is permissible to override the beliefs of others in society because of an underlying moral code that should be universal for everyone. We can start from here, you can correct and clarify your position before we continue.