How would you rate your thinking?

[6125]

So this video kind of got me thinking about thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCOOUK-bMQ

If INTP's as i understand are more inclined to act through a logical frame of mind, a few questions popped into my head:

-Would the "quality" of our thought process affect our well being in a more profound way than other personality types?

-given that you can theoretically take perfect actions from this very moment in time to maximize satisfaction, how closely would you say our actual actions come to this standard and what are the biggest contributors to this discrepancy?

-What is the relationship between the logical conclusions INTP's make and about how they in turn lead their lives? If these conclusions are not being applied, why? If our reasoning led us to believe that action x led to higher overall satisfaction, how often would we apply it? Is the solidity of our reasoning a factor in us taking action?

-How many innacurate assumptions do INTPS have about either what satisfies them or the best way to achieve this goal? Would you think INTPs have less such assumptions or more than other types? What would be the optimal method to expose assumptions you are not aware of?

A bit of a ramble but interested in what other people think.

 

[BigApplePi]

I played that eight minutes and thought of this:

One can head in the direction of clarity, but that is a direction he chose. One can just as easily head in the direction of obfuscation. Something similar with precision. If he wants to be precise, that's fine for him. Another person can choose evasion. His standards don't have to be other's.

So this video kind of got me thinking about thinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCOOUK-bMQ

If INTP's as i understand are more inclined to act through a logical frame of mind, a few questions popped into my head:
-Would the "quality" of our thought process affect our well being in a more profound way than other personality types?

Our well being (INTP's) is limited by the failure to value things properly.

-given that you can theoretically take perfect actions from this very moment in time to maximize satisfaction, how closely would you say our actual actions come to this standard and what are the biggest contributors to this discrepancy?

Theory is not the same as practice. Anyone can talk theory. "Our" actual actions tend to fail to take into account balanced desires. Example: I think about something and forget my wife has reminded me I am involved in a certain desirable action. Unless I tend to this, I will get into trouble.

-What is the relationship between the logical conclusions INTP's make and about how they in turn lead their lives? If these conclusions are not being applied, why? If our reasoning led us to believe that action x led to higher overall satisfaction, how often would we apply it? Is the solidity of our reasoning a factor in us taking action?

Just because one is an INTP and is fond of logic doesn't mean an INTP can think correctly about the logic of life. Logic is bigger than what an INTP is. An INTP to apply correct logic about life must venture into the traits of those other 15 temperaments. Example: My wife has a better perspective (sometimes) on what is important.

How many innacurate assumptions do INTPS have about either what satisfies them or the best way to achieve this goal? You want a number?
Would you think INTPs have less such assumptions or more than other types? You want a comparison of apples and oranges?
What would be the optimal method to expose assumptions you are not aware of? Ask the other 15 temperaments to expose assumptions. Optimal? I'd have to think about that. I'm writing this in a hurry, lol.

A bit of a ramble but interested in what other people think.

Good Q's.

Whoops. I forgot to answer the Q posed by this thread. My thinking is pretty good if I am able to be clear and precise, but is among the worst if some feeling stops me from thinking. I'm torn between being pleased with my thinking and kicking myself for feeling I'm a fool. Examples? No examples.

 

[Dapper Dan]

If INTP's as i understand are more inclined to act through a logical frame of mind, a few questions popped into my head:

In my experience, we are not inclined to act in a logical way at all. Sure, we may think logically, but that rarely manifests into any sort of action. In MBTI terms, this is because we have Ti instead of Te. We prefer to keep our thinking in our heads instead of extroverting it (aka: acting on it).

Instead, we act upon our Fe, which is obviously a bit iffy. This can result in the all-too-common situation where the INTP knows what the correct action is but ends up doing something else because it felt right.

You'll rarely see an INTP do something he didn't feel like doing.

 

[BigApplePi]

Good points Dapper.

 

[intpz]

In my experience, we are not inclined to act in a logical way at all. Sure, we may think logically, but that rarely manifests into any sort of action. In MBTI terms, this is because we have Ti instead of Te. We prefer to keep our thinking in our heads instead of extroverting it (aka: acting on it).

Instead, we act upon our Fe, which is obviously a bit iffy. This can result in the all-too-common situation where the INTP knows what the correct action is but ends up doing something else because it felt right.

You'll rarely see an INTP do something he didn't feel like doing.

You mean like getting a job he doesn't like?

 

[Dapper Dan]

You mean like getting a job he doesn't like?

Or doing simple housework. Or getting to bed at a decent time. Or getting out of bed at a decent time. Or getting in shape. Or doing busy work. Or going out and meeting people. Or *insert your problems here*.

 

[intpz]

Good ol' Fe... It's useful. In a bad way in the long run. Good thing is, INTPs don't plan 10 years to the future.

 

[~~~]

-Would the "quality" of our thought process affect our well being in a more profound way than other personality types?

Well doesn’t this depend on whether one comes to a conclusion on those thought processes and then acts on those conclusions?

-given that you can theoretically take perfect actions from this very moment in time to maximize satisfaction, how closely would you say our actual actions come to this standard and what are the biggest contributors to this discrepancy?

What happens if your thinking doesn’t maximise satisfaction because your thinking in a parallel world where your thought processes won’t be able to be maximised and you don’t escape that world?

-What is the relationship between the logical conclusions INTP's make and about how they in turn lead their lives? If these conclusions are not being applied, why? If our reasoning led us to believe that action x led to higher overall satisfaction, how often would we apply it? Is the solidity of our reasoning a factor in us taking action?

Is it because you concentrate to much on maximising something without focusing on the costs associated with the additional effort devoted towards spending more time on thinking further about a matter?

-How many innacurate assumptions do INTPS have about either what satisfies them or the best way to achieve this goal? Would you think INTPs have less such assumptions or more than other types? What would be the optimal method to expose assumptions you are not aware of?

A bit of a ramble but interested in what other people think.

Wouldn’t it depend on the extent to which the parallel INTP world reflects the actual world? I gather apparently it is not uncommon for the INTP world to not reflect the actual world in significant respects. Maybe some dead philosopher in another 2342 years will expose your assumptions providing they can access your parallel world from their parallel world. Short of that are you asking where you find cruel and unusual people who are not INTP?

 

[Vrecknidj]

You'll rarely see an INTP do something he didn't feel like doing.

That characterizes me unfortunately well until about the age of 35. I've noticed two tendencies since then (well, two that are relevant here): 1) I now spend most of my time and energy on projects I don't feel like doing (but the reasons I do so are ones which I can justify to myself, so, I keep going) and 2), the consequences of some of those include payoffs which turn out to be worth it.

Your description is quite accurate regarding the INTP generally, especially a youthful one. For many people of all types, there comes a point well into adulthood (and usually before "midlife" -- whatever that is) when the struggle for identity gives way to varying acceptances (of oneself, of others, of the fact that the world isn't likely to adapt or bend to one's will, etc.). In most cases, when this struggle subsides, things move forward internally for the INTP. At least, that's what I've seen in myself and many others (though I am aware of some notable exceptions).

Any other "older timer" INTPs want to chime in?

Dave

 

[intpz]

Well I'm quite young, but I can't say I think that the world will bend to my rules. I understand that nothing will change just because I want it to. I understand that if I won't spend 10 hours a day reading a boring as fuck literature book, I won't get a good mark in a test, but I still don't do it. What you describe sounds more like giving up on life and surrendering to the things you hate.

 

[RandomGeneratedName]

If INTP's as i understand are more inclined to act through a logical frame of mind, a few questions popped into my head:

-Would the "quality" of our thought process affect our well being in a more profound way than other personality types?

Yes. How I see it (as INTP>INFP) many INTPs think too as is on paper. There's a post on INTP speech/writing somewhere on here.
I've said before, i've not even seen 1 lol from any INTP.
What you think about most has it's impact, as does how you think and the length of continous time/interrupted.
I've known thoughts = you for a while. INTPs don't seem to want to accept it though, and just continue mocking INFPs.
I can see how strained most INTPs are. I wanna say, but maybe that's me projecting as an INFJ, but i've been there (developed T due to supressed Fi),
and apparently INFP understand others/what's going on well.

Thinking for long periods detatches us from our bodies,
and even emotions if they're stuffed down enough.
You gotta think, if an INTPs are comfortable most in their head,
they aren't going to notice a problem developing.


I'm not sure how long INTPs can think for continously. As a more open thinker though, i've gone up to about 6 hours. Not saying that's a positive thing. I know I need to get more/any breaks in for repeated exposure for better recall.
Perhaps an INTP could share if your type of thinking is automatic or does it take some effort (no matter the amount) to keep sentences that structured?

For me, I mostly think on the spot, I don't know if this is an INFP thing or what,
I've only just thought about recently. What I think I see though,
is my communication is a lot more open (ignoring ooo and ahs) and flowing,
and I create as I go along, and 9+/10, i'm correct. Over longer periods though my process starts to waver and it becomes difficult to keep with the flow.
Whether this is tiredness, energy burned, or something like that's how far my intuition has thought that day (lol), idk.
With INTPs it looks to me as rote basically, zero or very little freedom of expression. It varies for person to person of course, but based on what I perceive as a difference in flow/presentation, I would think INTPs don't think on the spot, and what I typical do, may be an F trait.

I'd love to know more about our differences though in regards to thought.

-given that you can theoretically take perfect actions from this very moment in time to maximize satisfaction, how closely would you say our actual actions come to this standard and what are the biggest contributors to this discrepancy?

As INTP>INFP/ADHD, I say what actions

-What is the relationship between the logical conclusions INTP's make and about how they in turn lead their lives? If these conclusions are not being applied, why? If our reasoning led us to believe that action x led to higher overall satisfaction, how often would we apply it? Is the solidity of our reasoning a factor in us taking action?

I believe INTPs become addicted to thinking, first as a habit,
like I said at the start, INTPs are most comfortable in their heads, chances are they'll probably miss a problem they may be developing, either because thinking has become automatic (like my "making up" as I go along), or Ti becomes their identity more and more and throw caution to the wind, or they'll probably miss a problem because all other INTPs do it, so hardly any one would notice if the whole group are in trouble, lol.
I've watch you guys argue/debate before on threads and i'm just sitting there thinking, don't they realise the level of pointless this is. I mean, to me, it looks like some INTPs are just going through the motions when they argue/debate, WHICH (yes INFPs can think too :P) I thought had a relation to INTPs being generally distanced/isolated or even burned by other types in the World(people suck I agree with you on that), and go further into their minds, BUT not only that, being surrounded by other INTPs, a group that INTPs fit well in (obviously), groups draw closer together over time (i'll resist the T jokes :P)
and BECAUSE it's generally the same type of interaction and Ti source,
it becomes a NORM. Whilst I am most definitely not knocking how you guys interact, I DO have to say (and want to)...

As I said above, watching you guys argue/debate, pointless, going through the motions. Well after thinking some of the above (and some other stuff I've been thinking about recently with INTPs and leadership - really need to get back to that question), I realised something...

You guys argue for social interaction... now whilst you can try to defend it as
"our thing" or "it doesn't mean anything, it's just like philosophy, daily brain exercise" and I actually want to agree.... BUT... the thing is...

I grew up in a hostile environment, one part being conflict daily.
I grew up a fierce debator, but it wasn't until I met my INFJ,
who had a much different upbringing than me (religious- ie group dynamic),
and different attitudes/experiences, I was punched in the face with realisation.
After realising that verbal foreplay/mocking/etc she was completly FROZEN,
she didn't know what to do, and just kept responding NORMALLY as I continued to be a dick (not realising). It was when I did realise .

(bare with me)
I thought for a few moments this isn't going to work, but hey, there was something about her, and i'm into personal growth.

Well down the line 3 years, I'm a far different person,
why? Me: INTP, her INFJ. I learned life wasn't all about arguing and problem solving. I started developed my Fi (which realising yesterday I supressed so badsosobad) This isn't my point this, no...

When I went to visit my Bro/Sis, I could see how aggressive they were, and I didn't like it at all (and I WAS the worst out of us).
Call it INFJ brainwashing if it's too painful for you to take on this idea to entertain, I understand.

But you guys/girls DEBATE, ARGUE, TALK with little emotional fluctuation,
go from topic to topic (been there) and so on, reinforcing each other and normalising everything. You even frequently tease INFPs, which yeah, not like I don't understand, because I do, the thing is though, what INFPs have, INTPs generally lack, but want and need.

Please do not give me the bullshit, about people suck, yes they do,
don't give me the shrug either to say you don't care
INTP is a type, but you're still human beings!!!!
and before I start sounding like Mother Teresa,

I went through the same thing, except it started in my childhood.
I became so numb/detatched and Fi supressed that my reasoning had 0 human component to the point I was being called a Sociopath (no matter my logic was sound, lol).
Getting pushed further and further away, and extra kick in the teeth,
with the abuse back from "unsolicited advice"
but finish this point, many of you think i'm super different, and didn't fit in as typical INTP, well you were right, INFP, developed T because of childhood to protective myself.

I'm more similar/(less now i'd off to Fi integration)
to INTPs than many of you will accept.
and it seems I understand you better than you understand me!!

So what's the point of all this? Well the above I did want to talk about seperate at one point, in relation to my INTP leader question, but as you can see got carried away.

The question is how much/do you integrate your logic etc, if not, then why?

I don't know many/any of you guys well personally, I won't pretend that I do.
I've only been here like 2 weeks.
I'm going to say you probably integrate less than the information you churn through OR what you do integrate doesn't make much of a difference, because
- they're generally the similarly structured subjects,
- INTPs have tendency to figure out and move on,
- tendency to not do because of what I mentioned near the start about getting caught up in the habit of thinking and the reinforcing of behaviours from other INTPs
- addiction to information (could even be part of OCD-O)
"if I have some more information, I might be able to solve a problem I have"
(can't solve that OCD problem with thinking, I tried, and just explained it in another post) (I don't think i'm making vague connections at all. The chances of the INTP environment, behaviours and general beliefs OVERWHELMINGLY have the chance to cause OCD! Especially the O type)
- addiction to information (intelligence has likely become what you view your identity on, more and more. And being smart, something you value and feel positive about, you're going to reinforce it, to increase intelligence, through habit, and probable fear of losing control - Again guys/girls, I've been there!
- INTPs are already dominant in thinking, and i've not seen much of reaching for F development, so like that concept in Economics, where you get to a certain point of information, it starts costing more to get specialised information, and it increases overall intelligence far minimally than before. Cost-Benefit ratio is it?
So as high Ti, I don't see how much of any chance could be made when it seems to be solely information, and not Fi.





-How many innacurate assumptions do INTPS have about either what satisfies them or the best way to achieve this goal? Would you think INTPs have less such assumptions or more than other types? What would be the optimal method to expose assumptions you are not aware of?

I think INTPs would have MORE assumptions than other types (info overload), but any innacuracies in assumptions would be less in deviation from 100% than other types.
However... saying that, which sounds correct to me, I think, depending on a few factors, such as time isolation/withdrawn/level of general people dislike, amount of information taken in, how much time spent in INTP community, and several other impacting reasons to create more and more inaccuracy in assumptions, because information which isn't applied still bounces around in our heads,
because stress and tiredness causes disruption in new connections in our brains, and some parts of a subject are more likely to degrade faster if you have more previous "sites" in your mind for other information but which shares the same pattern.
because anxiety/depression colours what information you take in (negative)

- You guys/girls say "people suck" / "screw people" again, I agree,
but the point is that's a damn lie. So slowly over time you will go from disliking people, to hating, to not want to expose feelings and end up hurt, and basically end up with the incorrect assumption that intellectual pursuits are fully satisfying, and end up blank when it comes to "other people. What people? I really don't care, i'm into this/that right now"

So that's one incorrect assumption which can develop, and given everything I've listed above, I'd be suprised if any INTP actually would try to disagree and that the INTP environment/behaviours do NOT create all these problems.
(well I never said 100%, I said high probability)


What would be the optimal method to expose assumptions you are not aware of?

... certainly not something like an INFP doing something like this...

i am struggling to imagine any INTP will entertain what i've said, maybe even not read it all.

I'm not saying "hey look at me, over the top INFP, I know everything!".
That's actually quite insulting someone would take the stance i'm stupid enough and lacking awareness to allow myself to end up like that closed off person.

I've answered the thread, and a lot of what i've been thinking has fitted well with the answers.

I have an interest in thinking/communication, believe it or not

All of this information I've just shared though, yes, I have not included other types into the equation, and any possible affects they may have on the environment or INTPs. I don't know the ratio of INTPs to everyone else, but it's gotta be pretty high. Again, from what i've seen, thought, experienced and know

The INTP environment, behaviours and common group beliefs are breeding grounds for OCD, Depression, Anxiety, Fatigue! Detatchment, Isolation, etc

could be causing you to believe and accept, even protect, that all of this, in one way or another, is just an INTP thing, it's what you have, so you'll defend it.

I'm sorry, I wish I could agree, but I can't. Debates, going through the motions as a form of socialising, that isn't healthy. (I should know, personal growth since 20, 29 now, stilil not at a place i'd like to be yet).

I too have no alterior motive remember! INTP/INFP.


I actually don't care right now if any INTP reads in it's entirety or takes on board.
I'm exhausted. It would be nice though. (wonder how many INTPs will remember the "no one understands me" if they don't understand me!)


Like i've said, i've only been hear about 2 weeks, and do not know any of you personally. I have however,

- Spent a LOT of time in those 2 weeks here
- Seen how you guys interact,
- Discovered my own INFPness (after 80%~T to 1%T, and that i severly supressed Fi in my childhood)
- Been doing personal growth for about 9 years, and i've been expanding all areas of my personality! This was before I knew about the MBTI (at 23)
- I HAVE identified with ALL INTP traits and challenges.
- As an INFP, i'm sure it's obvious now I am one. (thanks for telling me earlier btw...) and from what I know and understand so far, is
INFP: Understand other types/what's up/see their pain.
Stand up for something that means something to them (yes, you)
- and I could go on, but I really am exhausted.

Like I said, I'm not saying 100% this is fact.
I'm telling you what I know, what i've experienced, what i've seen and what I believe and read.

You don't need to accept it, I just ask you to entertain the ideas/theories of what I've shared.

MAYBE I have projected in some areas, it's entirely possible, just look at the situation INTP>INFP amongst INTPs, i'm not afraid to admit if i've made a mistake.
but That ISN'T to pre-admission to say "I'm probably wrong".

No! Everything i've stated here is to the best of my knowledge, and ability.
I know several parts to be factual for certain.

Ultimately, however this post is received, i'm just trying to help.
At the least I can say, I'm an INFP, and i'm integrating my Fi, i'm not allowing fear of being wrong or fear of making a mistake to stop me.

BTW:
I was chuffed though when the first 2/3 INTPs who answered my question about leading, said they had the EXACT problems I have with leading (But know are fixable).
(I've not yet been able to read over the other posts yet, I've had a lot going on, including this^^^


If you think i'm attacking you and your values, i'm sorry my communication skills are lacking in finese at this time, but I am most definitely NOT attacking you or your values!
Please don't insult my intelligence or character!



A bit of a ramble but interested in what other people think
Did somebody say ramble? xD


Great question, btw, 6125!


--------------------------
I'm taking a few days off the forums to hang my head in embarrassment/to get some sleep and allow the new mindset of INFP to settle into my mind.

 

[xbox]

tldr

 

[The Gopher]

It's perfect how else could it be?

 

[Seteleechete]

random, I have no intention of doing what is "healthy" or "best" for me, that is not my top priority, simple as that I actually value my "intp" way of thinking more than my health. Most of the issues you have brought up I already thought of, the only new piece is my growing hatred for other people(in such a blunt manner anyway, thanks for that btw). And though I won't say I don't care about being alienated from other people, I will say that I have rationalized it as an acceptable lose(that should be mitigated were possible). I am only interested in developing my F functions further if I can do it in a somewhat logical manner, which in itself is a stupid? Contradicting? Idea.