How to improve my "Se" function?

[rfzfsh]

Hi I'm an INTP, and one of the more serious weaknesses of an INTP is that the sensing function makes little inroads out into the external world. INTPs are usually oblivious to external details unless something forces them to take notice. When an INTP goes into a new room, or walks through a city street, he is blind to much of the detail that people with an Se function would see immediately. The INTP always tries to get a feel for the big picture, using his Ne, and habitually ignores all detail. Of course, objects of interest will be seen as a matter of course and he can choose to concentrate and focus on them, but it is remarkable how much he still overlooks. And those objects he does happen to notice will belong to a small set of things that he is interested in anyway. Many other objects would only be noticed if another person points them out to him.
So how does an INTP improves its "Se" function?

source: http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html (control F --> "Introverted Sensing")

 

[Architect]

Make a lot of money using Ti-Ne-Si-Fe (something in IT) and hire an Se dominant (i.e. ESTP) to do that for you.

 

[Vrecknidj]

So how does an INTP improves its "Se" function?

By living for several decades.

 

[Absurdity]

Play lots of "Where's Waldo?"

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Not for INTPs specifically, but just in general:

How to be a better sensor?
is how I think you can become used to Se elements, and consciously improve in them, not the function itself however.

 

[Dapper Dan]

Aside from "how", I'd like to ask you "why".

Why drain yourself for the sake of improving a function that isn't compatible with your existing Ne and Si?

 

[Architect]

Aside from "how", I'd like to ask you "why".

Why drain yourself for the sake of improving a function that isn't compatible with your existing Ne and Si?

Precisely. I used to take on Se projects all the time. Cleaning, building things, gardening. I found out I sucked at them. Just drained my energy. Now I hire that stuff out.

 

[snafupants]

Aside from "how", I'd like to ask you "why".

Why drain yourself for the sake of improving a function that isn't compatible with your existing Ne and Si?

@Dapper Dan

Because it's part of your functional stack and arguably part of your psyche; there's debate whether the inferior function is actually in the shadow. Anyway, the dominant and inferior functions oftentimes work with one another. Developing Fe for an INTP will make you more well-rounded (an adage of high school counselors everywhere) and less stressed. It's really not something you want to fight or neglect - left unheeded, it can cause many subtle problems and midlife exigencies. The inferior function is going to come out one way or another, so why not make its expression healthy?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

@Dapper Dan

Developing Fe for an INTP will make you more well-rounded (an adage of high school counselors everywhere) and less stressed. It's really not something you want to fight or neglect - left unheeded, it can cause many subtle problems and midlife exigencies. The inferior function is going to come out one way or another, so why not make its expression healthy?

In Jungian terms, the third function is the potential mediator with the inferior function; i.e., one approaches the inferior safely by going through the tertiary, not by apprehending it directly. In terms of individual growth (Jaccobi, 1963), one apprehends one's unconscious and the Self by a sequence going from the dominant to the auxiliary to the tertiary to the inferior. The danger of directly confronting the inferior function rather than using the mediating or tertiary function is that this is more likely to produce ego-inflation—i.e., when unconscious energy is brought into the conscious sphere but is controlled by the ego rather than by the Self. Further, one obtains strong transference reactions towards whoever is the change agent involved, and the inferior function will not be easily integrated [i.e., it will not “stick” (Jung, 1971)].

One application of this in the organizational world seems to have occurred with the human relations movement. This example may be completely wrong, but nevertheless serves as an explanatory vehicle for how the path through the tertiary would work. On the assumption that the dominant mode in this world is that of thinking supported by a sensing auxiliary, the drive in the human relations field to get people in touch with their feelings represented an attempt to go straight for the inferior function. This was usually attempted in order to balance out the overly task-driven dominant thinking mode.

However, one of the most common complaints of that era in organizational training was that the individual, once out of the fully supportive atmosphere and conditions set up for the individual to get in touch with his or her feelings, returned quickly to past patterns of attitude and behavior with others. They were unable to act out their new-found selves in the “real” world. This is precisely what one would expect if the inferior function had been tackled directly rather than going through the tertiary, although other explanations of this phenomenon would equally suffice. Nevertheless, it is interesting to note the trend in the last 5-10 years of encouraging intuition, representing the business world's tertiary function.​

Unresolved Issues with the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, Anna-Maria Garden

https://intpmusings.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/unresolved-issues-with-the-mbti.pdf


The article can be summed as arguing that development and lasting growth comes not from directly focusing on the inferior(which would cause ego inflation, and only be a temporary change) but by integrating through the tertiary.

 

[redbaron]

As an INTP, I generally score high on 'Se' whenever I test cognitive functions. I attribute this to a few things:

- sports - I played sports every day as a kid. For about 5 years I was playing competitively in one sport in the morning, then I'd compete in a different one in the afternoon. Then the next day was, you guessed it, more sports! Although I don't play a sport per se any more, I still exercise pretty rigorously (almost) every day.
- working in a retail business. While an intuitive approach encompasses long-term and far-reaching goals, it is necessary to take on the boring and nit-picky tasks as well. Being the most senior manager in store from day-to-day, I have to set an example.
- working towards specific profit & loss margins. The area of 'profit opportunities' is broken up into easily identifiable and understandable systems. maximizing profit is really a matter of improving each system by say, 0.5%. Do that for 20 different systems, and you begin to appreciate that focussing on small details to achieve a bigger picture goal can really have an impact.
- musical hobby - I spend a fair chunk of time playing and composing music. It is entirely for my own enjoyment, but I do like to have the small details figured out so I don't have to troubleshoot later.
- people-oriented job. I work with about 20 or more people on any given day, and it is somewhat a requirement that I speak to all of them at least briefly. So I spend a lot of time regularly interacting with a variety of people.

 

[Architect]

As an INTP, I generally score high on 'Se' whenever I test cognitive functions. I attribute this to a few things:

- sports - I played sports every day as a kid. For about 5 years I was playing competitively in one sport in the morning, then I'd compete in a different one in the afternoon. Then the next day was, you guessed it, more sports! Although I don't play a sport per se any more, I still exercise pretty rigorously (almost) every day.
- working in a retail business. While an intuitive approach encompasses long-term and far-reaching goals, it is necessary to take on the boring and nit-picky tasks as well. Being the most senior manager in store from day-to-day, I have to set an example.
- working towards specific profit & loss margins. The area of 'profit opportunities' is broken up into easily identifiable and understandable systems. maximizing profit is really a matter of improving each system by say, 0.5%. Do that for 20 different systems, and you begin to appreciate that focussing on small details to achieve a bigger picture goal can really have an impact.
- musical hobby - I spend a fair chunk of time playing and composing music. It is entirely for my own enjoyment, but I do like to have the small details figured out so I don't have to troubleshoot later.
- people-oriented job. I work with about 20 or more people on any given day, and it is somewhat a requirement that I speak to all of them at least briefly. So I spend a lot of time regularly interacting with a variety of people.

That sounds very much like a type I'm particularly familiar with, the ISTP. I wouldn't presume to tell you your type, but it is common for S types to type themselves as N, and Se is the secondary of the ISTP.

However I can Se when I need (or when I must), I was raised in an all S family (except for myself) and know how to clean the house, do some woodworking, gardening, fishing, etc when needed. The difference is that it drains me and I avoid it whenever possible.

 

[redbaron]

That sounds very much like a type I'm particularly familiar with, the ISTP. I wouldn't presume to tell you your type, but it is common for S types to type themselves as N, and Se is the secondary of the ISTP.

However I can Se when I need (or when I must), I was raised in an all S family (except for myself) and know how to clean the house, do some woodworking, gardening, fishing, etc when needed. The difference is that it drains me and I avoid it whenever possible.

I've entertained the thought that I might be ISTP, but it's hard to tell. I identify most with INTP, and although I score 'high' on Se, I invariably score higher on Ne. The main issue is that I really don't identify with much about (the description of) ISTP beyond maybe one or two things. Anyway my 'development' in each function in order of most to least developed is usually:

Ti (never changes as top)
Te/Ne (interchangeable as 2/3, both very close to Ti)
Se/Si/Ni (interchangeable, but relatively lower than Te/Ne)
Fi/Fe (seems to vary a lot, both fluctuate a fair bit. Sometimes I score Fi as high as 4th out of the 8 functions)

If I order it simply by what I think the order I score most often is:

1 Ti
2 Te
3 Ne
4 Ni
5 Se
6 Si
7 Fi
8 Fe

To be honest, the only other types that I feel have a decent proportion of relevance to me are ENTJ and ISTJ. But this is only when I consider my personality related to my work habits. Answering based on my personality outside of work and at social/family events, I'm 100% INTP. Answering based on my work ethic and drive to succeed, I can see why I would be close to ENTJ and ISTJ.

Essentially when I need to manage people, I emulate my most effective mentor/colleague - an ENTJ.

When I need to analyse and improve systems that I find boring, I try to emulate another mentor who knows how to get results in that area - I suspect (unsure) ISTJ/ISTP.

Maybe you can figure it out for me?

 

[Architect]

I've entertained the thought that I might be ISTP, but it's hard to tell. I identify most with INTP, and although I score 'high' on Se, I invariably score higher on Ne.

The scoring strength isn't reliable. In particular the inferior, as our distant goal point, can take the upper hand and push the scores around. This happened for me where I tested as an INFJ when younger. I think few people here would think me an INFJ, what happened was my inferior Fe attractor point was strong in my psyche. Sensors have intuition in the inferior and tertiary, this is why you religion is so strong among them.

The main issue is that I really don't identify with much about (the description of) ISTP beyond maybe one or two things.

Again the trickster inferior can fool us. More reliable than what you identify with is what your past behavior corresponds to.

Functions are a good way to get a handle on it, the ISTP functional stack is Ti-Se-Ni-Fe, but what you wrote about the functions isn't helping because you seem to say you do them all.

At any rate maybe past behaviors is the best approach. I'll pick out one in particular is your predilection for sports when younger. While not exhaustive, every INTP I've known and read about has disliked team sports, and at best participate in solo sports like running. Of those who run or whatever, never have I seen one that does it every day.

On the other hand the ISTP is a very sporty type. My ISTP brother has always been a sporty guy. ISTPs tend to be well developed physically while INTPs tend to look like Beaker from the Muppets.

ISTPs are close cousins to the INTP, I'd suspect you are one with the INTP being your inferior (tertiary) attractor.

 

[Ink]

I believe we gather details with Fe and process them with Si... Actually experiencing Se might be impossible for us?

 

[Architect]

Actually experiencing Se might be impossible for us?

No, just psychically costly. You can will yourself, as an INTP, to do it quite easily. You won't do it as well as a Se dominant (who practices and hones the skill continually), and it will tire you out as it takes lots of psychic energy.

 

[redbaron]

Again the trickster inferior can fool us. More reliable than what you identify with is what your past behavior corresponds to.

Functions are a good way to get a handle on it, the ISTP functional stack is Ti-Se-Ni-Fe, but what you wrote about the functions isn't helping because you seem to say you do them all.

At any rate maybe past behaviors is the best approach. I'll pick out one in particular is your predilection for sports when younger. While not exhaustive, every INTP I've known and read about has disliked team sports, and at best participate in solo sports like running. Of those who run or whatever, never have I seen one that does it every day.

On the other hand the ISTP is a very sporty type. My ISTP brother has always been a sporty guy. ISTPs tend to be well developed physically while INTPs tend to look like Beaker from the Muppets.

ISTPs are close cousins to the INTP, I'd suspect you are one with the INTP being your inferior (tertiary) attractor.

While I generally respect your opinions, your argument is literally, 'you are like other ISTP's that I've known, so you're probably one too.'

But the paragraph I posted was specifically designed to demonstrate what I have done that has developed my Se. It's a very minor part of my personality and none of it is what I'm necessarily interested in.

Note that I called the tasks requiring Se at my work, 'boring and nit-picky.'

I fucking HATE having to physically fix equipment, but it's simply way too costly to call a contractor out for every minor problem that doesn't require one. Since I don't want to waste money in calling them out, and I don't want other people calling them out for problems that can be fixed on our end, I do it myself. Essentially because I know that if I don't set the expectation that managers learn and actively repair and maintain equipment, I know that it's going to negatively impact profit.

Profit which ultimately allows me to spend more time at work doing the things I enjoy - long-range planning and brainstorming ways to improve the business at large.

Essentially, I complete only those 'S' tasks that are a minimum requirement of my job description. Anything beyond is delegated to people who are either better suited, or who don't have anything more important to do. When I say better suited, I generally mean people of relatively equal authority - we simply divide the work up into what we're all good at and go from there.

I agree with you entirely that past behaviour is the most effective indicator, but the example I gave is a really small portion of my overall behaviour. Like you said, we can turn it on whenever it's required, and to the outside observer it will be barely noticeable that we're faking it.

 

[Architect]

While I generally respect your opinions, your argument is literally, 'you are like other ISTP's that I've known, so you're probably one too.'

Maybe I didn't put enough caveats in. You asked for an opinion ("maybe you can figure it out for me") so I made one as best I could, knowing nothing about you other than your stated word. Don't take it as gospel; if you don't like the taste, don't eat the dessert.

The only thing I can say is that the sports thing jumps out at me. ISTP's are very close to INTP's, so much that one can easily be mistaken for the other. The only difference is that in the INTP the S is in the tertiary, and in ISTP S is in the secondary, and vice-versa for N.

One easy way to spot them is that ISTP's generally dislike theory, while INTP's love it. Anecdotally every ISTP programmer I know can't stand it when I talk about software modeling, they despise the idea (the strength of the vinegar has to do with ISTP engineers I suspect). Also, every one if physically large. ISTP's love sports, and I have yet to meet or see an INTP who does any sports other than some of them like a solo such as cycling or running (I used to run). INTP's are usually thin ectomorphs, occasionally you find one gone to flab.

Like I said I wouldn't presume to tell you your type, but when asked to make a call given a person with that description I would look at those two elements first; namely sports and theory predilection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwHFjtBoxEI

 

[redbaron]

Well fair enough, but despite my playing sports I'm not what would be considered physically large.

The thing about sports is that, even though I was playing and reacting to the environment, I was usually thinking about other things while I did it. I generally saw sport as a game, where the goal was to figure out my opponent. Sometimes I would lose after figuring out my opponent, but I would still be satisfied.

Other times I'd win without ever figuring out my opponent. Not that I would complain, but I often found this less satisfying despite the gratification. I wasn't playing sport for the physical experience, as much as the mental stimulation it invoked.