How to help IxTP friend

[Rainer]

My friend is an IxTP. He's 27, a probable virgin, and has worked at a pizza place for the last 10 years. He seems pretty depressed much of the time. He's also voiced his concerns about his life in one of his more lucid, expressive times after tripping on acid.

Now of course, I am not suggesting I should try to help him change in ways he doesn't want to change. I really imagine that he is probably not too happy with his current state of affairs. He lives with his sister and her boyfriend, a mutual friend, and his main focus in life is video games. But maybe there is something I can do to help him self-actualize, or maybe it's just too intrusive and I should just let him be.

I sympathize with him, because I was once in a very similar state of hopelessness about romantic relationships and life being at all fulfilling, up until things started turning better for me when I was 22.

Thoughts?

 

[QuickTwist]

Encourage him when he does something positive with his life. Repeat this process until he makes a 180. Problem solved.

 

[Anktark]

Now of course, I am not suggesting I should try to help him change in ways he doesn't want to change. I really imagine that he is probably not too happy with his current state of affairs.

Don't be a friend he wants, be the friend he needs. INTP use tools that are great at digging deep- so it's rather hard to dig themselves out of a rut. ISTPs can get into a loop and then they just need to get out and gather more information or do something different to break themselves out of it (a gentle guiding kick to an arse should suffice).

As for how to do it- hard to say anything specific since you didn't provide any details. IxTPs hate to be controlled, bossed around and will either do bare minimum or entirely backwards if forced to do something they don't agree with.
So you might want to refrain from doing that.

Showing them available options or inviting to do something together might work. Maybe start with motivating them towards some idea. More independence is a great lure for IxTps.
You could mention how at times it probably sucks to live with other people and how nice it is to have a place of your own. It doesn't matter how good relationships are between the IxTp and his sister/sister's boyfriend- he will be one giant ear. That's how you sell things to IxTPs.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

You can't if he's really IxTP. You can't force him to anything, because every decision must be HIS decision. Sorry.

You can only suggest him some options, it's his problem how his life is.

 

[nearfantastica]

As an INTP, and one who has often found myself dealing with some IxTPs' problems, we appreciate when you listen without trying to judge or force our hand. If we feel like talking, that is.

Speaking the truth is usually a fair strategy. Call it as you see it. In a rut or not, as an IxTP he's probably already aware of his downfalls and what he needs to do to get his life on track. Having someone else point it out could serve as motivation. Personally, I don't get angry with people when they do this. I understand where they're coming from; that they're just trying to help. It usually makes me happy to know that someone sort of understands. You know?

Best of luck.

 

[Grayman]

Tell him that at his age women are looking for a grown man so grow up. If he likes what he has now thats okay but dont fucking complain about it because you cannot have women and a good job by playing video games and eating acid.

 

[Bock]

Tell him that at his age women are looking for a grown man so grow up. If he likes what he has now thats okay but dont fucking complain about it because you cannot have women and a good job by playing video games and eating acid.

Back to the 60s with ya.

Thoughts?

If he's a somewhat miserable 27 year old virgin that makes pizzas for a living, he probably has some core issues that needs to be dealt with, motivation and energy is obviously a problem. Can also be anything from utterly dysfunctional self-image to "simple" anxiety with women and so on. If he truly has no experience with women - that needs to be fixed as soon as possible, it only gets harder/worse (as he probably knows).

He's probably stuck in a negative/slowly destructive loop that's been going for many years, and to get out of it, he needs to get a taste of "how life can be"/potential/carrot/dopamine rush yada yada. Depending on the severity of the situation this might be easy or nigh impossible to achieve.

 

[Grayman]

Back to the 60s with ya.



If he's a somewhat miserable 27 year old virgin that makes pizzas for a living, he probably has some core issues that needs to be dealt with, motivation and energy is obviously a problem. Can also be anything from utterly dysfunctional self-image to "simple" anxiety with women and so on. If he truly has no experience with women - that needs to be fixed as soon as possible, it only gets harder/worse (as he probably knows).

He's probably stuck in a negative/slowly destructive loop that's been going for many years, and to get out of it, he needs to get a taste of "how life can be"/potential/carrot/dopamine rush yada yada. Depending on the severity of the situation this might be easy or nigh impossible to achieve.

Of course he has anxiety with women, look at his life style. Where is he supposed to bring tne girls, bis sisters place? What is he supposed to talk to them about, pizza and video games? The dude doesnt need a girl he needs to get a life and maybe a girl will be attracted to that life and follow the fucking carrot like a rabbit.

 

[Vrecknidj]

My friend is an IxTP. He's 27, a probable virgin, and has worked at a pizza place for the last 10 years. He seems pretty depressed much of the time. He's also voiced his concerns about his life in one of his more lucid, expressive times after tripping on acid.

Self-analysis. There are reasons he's 27, a virgin, working at a pizza place, depressed, and doing acid instead of something else.

Probably there are survival tools he learned at some point in his life which are no longer the right tools to get on with his circumstances. But, not knowing what to do, he keeps using the tools he knows how to use despite them not being the ones he needs for his present circumstances. But, until he comes to terms with his past, he won't see the truths for what they are and will remain stuck.

Just a thought.

 

[Grayman]

Probably there are survival tools he learned at some point in his life which are no longer the right tools to get on with his circumstances.

Dissociation, Escapism, Schidoiz, anhedonia, social anxiety, etc...

Been there done that.





Most who are what they are stay as they are because they believe they cannot get out of it. Their belief makes it real. They seek to make that step but cannot move and believe that nothing will become of it. Really they need to look inside and ask themselves what is it that is really stopping me, baseless fear, and the realization that I have to give up on things that I have held onto my whole life to tread the unknown.

Belief makes everything real in the sense that it has meaning and value and worth. Without it, nothing is real or has value and we fall into the void of depression from whence all is void of emotion and we lose ourselves in a cycle where our very thoughts bent on the negative continue to reinforce thoughts that move us further into the land of the dead.

If only you can convince a person to believe that they can change and if only you can convince them that something is important but it isn't your path and so you cannot walk it. You can only hope to light the way to the entrance.

 

[Bock]

Doubt a better job and his own place will make a big difference if it's his behaviour/lack of energy/lack of social life/personality/looks that is the problem (which i believe is the issue here). Women do not economically need men anymore hence, especially for younger women, it's mostly about looks/social life/momentum/projected value etc. Maybe it's a bit different in the states than here in the land of the ICEBEARS though, because of your weaker social security/wellfare etc (i guess it varies wildly depending on state though).

Getting a "better" job/studying might give him some confidence to be able to work on his social skills/self-confidence etc. tbh we know very little about the guy so...

 

[ENTP lurker]

I have hard time of seeing that person as ISTP. Maybe ISTP with low Se. The thing I noticed in ISTP with strong Se that they love to be in control and push people (not by giving Te directions like some ISTJs might do). Teacher actually with huge sarcastic dark charisma and students liked him. Had knack for internal organs and animals... probably had great interest in surgery. Very psychopathic impression even though he certainly wasn't. Excellent geometrical and visual abilities. His body language was very strong look albeit he was not into lifting weights or anything like that. That is the direction for happy ISTP.

In case of INTP just encourage the person for intellectual exploration. Discuss with him about different subjects etc. INTPs and strict control wont match. Something with computers might also help him. Direction where he has control over other wont work. Even as an ENTP I find it very demanding. (I have managed to carry it though by making myself act like an intellectual clown. Pupils came to one man educational stand up show... Will it work for INTPs? I doubt.)

 

[StevenM]

Uh, what's wrong with working in a pizza shop?

And what's wrong with being a virgin?

It sounds like he's supporting himself, so what's the big deal?

I bet the most stressful thing that makes him miserable, is his objective status among other people. Perhaps the pizza shop sucks, and perhaps he is lonely. But nothing beats the actual judgement laid out by others because he's a virgin pizza boy. Perhaps, he's critical of himself as well.

I think there is a way you could help him. If he is comfortable around you, go dining and to the movies, and get him out a bit. Go for walks and talks and drives around the countryside. Attend events and fairs and what not. Slowly and gently introduce him to people.

Show him a world where people are not all that half bad. And install the idea that he is not as half bad either.

Whatever boundaries you have, make them clear as soon as you realize them.

You can't if he's really IxTP. You can't force him to anything, because every decision must be HIS decision. Sorry.

You can only suggest him some options, it's his problem how his life is.

Yeah, not the way I imagined any IxxP's.

 

[Grayman]

Doubt a better job and his own place will make a big difference if it's his behaviour/lack of energy/lack of social life/personality/looks that is the problem (which i believe is the issue here). Women do not economically need men anymore hence, especially for younger women, it's mostly about looks/social life/momentum/projected value etc. Maybe it's a bit different in the states than here in the land of the ICEBEARS though, because of your weaker social security/wellfare etc (i guess it varies wildly depending on state though).

Getting a "better" job/studying might give him some confidence to be able to work on his social skills/self-confidence etc. tbh we know very little about the guy so...

I hadn't considered the woman who looks for a man to take care of her.... I was thinking that a woman doesn't want a man when she has to pull his weight. Socially a man is valued by his work staus in the states and women claim to not do so but I dont know of a women who wouldnt end a relationship the moment she felt he had no aspirations.

 

[Debase]

The key to "manipulate" an INTP is always the chameleon personality trait. We learn and adapt new features by mirroring other people and will be persuade trough role modelling. As soon as we find are selves confident in a certain kind of ends, behaviours or social roles we have great potential, striving to actually adapt the role better than anybody else. It's really all or nothing, being too impatient to make an effort improving things we're not good at from the start. In a situation where the risk of failure is high the INTP would likely give up in a early stage, feeling it is useless to even keep trying to adapt to the assignment.

So if you want your INTP friend to be better with girls you should:
1. Flirt with girls all the time, making it seem like something very natural.
2. Be successful at it and convince him that this is really the path to follow.
3. Encourage him to adapt the assignment and make it an important part of your relationship. Try to make sure though that the gap in success rate between you and him don't get too big. That would jeopardise not only his motivation to proceed, but your whole friendship.

You can't really convince an INTP by instructions, less by being bossy. It would probably scare him of even further than before. People like Grayman should stay far away from INTPs.

 

[Grayman]

The key to "manipulate" an INTP is always the chameleon personality trait. We learn and adapt new features by mirroring other people and will be persuade trough role modelling.

This isn't my experience and it does seem to reflect the majority of those on this forum. They seem to be more independent and prefer to be outside the social norms letting others do their own thing. I am not aware of an INTp who would mirror let alone see anyone 'socially' as a role model. Role models of INTP's tend to be intellectuals and not social bugs.

"manipulate"

Preferably 'influence'.

So if you want your INTP friend to be better with girls you should:
1. Flirt with girls all the time, making it seem like something very natural.
2. Be successful at it and convince him that this is really the path to follow.
3. Encourage him to adapt the assignment and make it an important part of your relationship. Try to make sure though that the gap in success rate between you and him don't get too big. That would jeopardise not only his motivation to proceed, but your whole friendship.

It is better that he gains acceptance to who he is rather than putting on a face to hide behind. I also think that treating women any different than men is counter productive to teaching someone that women are not to be feared or seen differently than they would see or interact with a man.

You can't really convince an INTP by instructions, less by being bossy. It would probably scare him of even further than before. People like Grayman should stay far away from INTPs.

I'll let everyone decide that for themselves.

 

[TBerg]

At least I read in my spare time and have done things better than making pizza. I just wish there was some way for me to meet a weird person who connects to my weirdness without having to jump through the romantic hoops that everyone else does. The only way I would be able to attract someone the normal way is to be someone I am not, thereby invalidating the future of intimacy.

 

[Debase]

This isn't my experience and it does seem to reflect the majority of those on this forum. They seem to be more independent and prefer to be outside the social norms letting others do their own thing. I am not aware of an INTp who would mirror let alone see anyone 'socially' as a role model. Role models of INTP's tend to be intellectuals and not social bugs.

Well, I think primarily we mirroring people to be able to analyze the position and it's motives. But I also think we can adapt a trait or an identity over time if we find the shell comfortable. Maybe role model isn't the right word, much associated with some abstract sense of "inspiration". Rather it's a bit of a bait to let INTP try something out by letting someone he identify with show that A actually leads to B. INTPs have a clear tendency to get stuck in their own comfort zone, hesitating they will be able to pull things off. Seeing someone "just like me" doing it can be convincing.

Google "mirroring" and "INTP" and you will find lots of discussions about the subject.

We are intellectually independent. But intellect rarely leads to decisions and actions, even though we often would think rationality is our main guidance. I think that explains much of our laziness, lacking goals and motivations. We really need roles to live up, or we'll end up feeling lonely, unwanted and misguided. Opposite with one may think, I believe societies newly adopted individualism is a straight way to depression for INTPs. We are built to questioning, analyze and introduce new perspective using known tools, not getting thrown out in space forced to create out of nothing. Life in it's whole has way too many option for us to consider in a life time, so we need limits by context.

It is better that he gains acceptance to who he is rather than putting on a face to hide behind. I also think that treating women any different than men is counter productive to teaching someone that women are not to be feared or seen differently than they would see or interact with a man.

Well can you tell who we really are? It's not an issue concerning merely the sexes, it is about what you want to get out of the specific relationship. If you want someone to be your buddy, treat her like one. If you want someone to be your lover, treat her like one. TS friend obviously don't have a clue about the latter.

I'll let everyone decide that for themselves.

That is the popularized version of the biblical "wash one's hands of".

 

[Grayman]

That is the popularized version of the biblical "wash one's hands of".

The opposite of actually. In the bible Pilot allowed others to decide Jesus' fate. In this I am allowing them to choose their own as opposed to you choosing it for them.

 

[Grayman]

Well, I think primarily we mirroring people to be able to analyze the position and it's motives. But I also think we can adapt a trait or an identity over time if we find the shell comfortable. Maybe role model isn't the right word, much associated with some abstract sense of "inspiration". Rather it's a bit of a bait to let INTP try something out by letting someone he identify with show that A actually leads to B. INTPs have a clear tendency to get stuck in their own comfort zone, hesitating they will be able to pull things off. Seeing someone "just like me" doing it can be convincing.

Google "mirroring" and "INTP" and you will find lots of discussions about the subject.

We are intellectually independent. But intellect rarely leads to decisions and actions, even though we often would think rationality is our main guidance. I think that explains much of our laziness, lacking goals and motivations. We really need roles to live up, or we'll end up feeling lonely, unwanted and misguided. Opposite with one may think, I believe societies newly adopted individualism is a straight way to depression for INTPs. We are built to questioning, analyze and introduce new perspective using known tools, not getting thrown out in space forced to create out of nothing. Life in it's whole has way too many option for us to consider in a life time, so we need limits by context.



Well can you tell who we really are? It's not an issue concerning merely the sexes, it is about what you want to get out of the specific relationship. If you want someone to be your buddy, treat her like one. If you want someone to be your lover, treat her like one. TS friend obviously don't have a clue about the latter.

I can agree with the first paragraph. The second large one still does not support your advice. Your primary focus as written indicated flirting but flirting isnt a major part of an intimate relationship.


In my experience young men idiolize women and make them out to be more than they are. This is not only scary for the young man when he has to interact with this exotic creature but also for the woman who feels these views being placed on her.

 

[Debase]

The opposite of actually. In the bible Pilot allowed others to decide Jesus' fate. In this I am allowing them to choose their own as opposed to you choosing it for them.

As I see it I give them an alternative they either can accept or refuse, while you just leave them to their own faith knowing they probably end up in misery. Just like Pilatus knows that Jesus will be killed if he chooses to not intervene, but somehow still tries to escape responsibility for the consequences of his decision. I wouldn't say you have a moral obligation to help those lost souls out, but it is kind of inconsistent for you to demand them to accept the consequences of their lack of actions, when you yourself can't handle the consequences of you choosing not to give a helping hand.

I can agree with the first paragraph. The second large one still does not support your advice. Your primary focus as written indicated flirting but flirting isnt a major part of an intimate relationship.

In my experience young men idiolize women and make them out to be more than they are. This is not only scary for the young man when he has to interact with this exotic creature but also for the woman who feels these views being placed on her.

Flirting is the way to introduce yourself as a potential mate. You can't just skip that part if you want to establish a fresh relationship. And when I say flirting I consider it as a broad concept, not just to describe the act of repeating sleazy lines in a bar.

 

[TheManBeyond]

I dunno guys, before i started filtring with women i thought i was complitely clueless about how to do it but now it seems that at least for me, interesting girls (in my view) like my weirdness, so i just act weird and make weird jokes/comments. An example of this is, the other day i add a classmate who's really hot as a facebook friend, we haven't really talked that much at class but whatever.
So this friend of mine approach her and her little group of friends and asked them do you know the joke about No and me neither? And i came by and said softly, no, and me neither. XDDDDDD And they were like, :S and we were chillin, our eyes collide in their trayectory for a way out, private and our spirits reached a common ground in a matter of seconds. But i'm positive about it. I just need to get a bit closer.

Something that makes it easier for me to get in private is that i'm really good with jokes - not jokes in the sense of the above but like clever comments that are funny in a given situation, specially when we are in a group. I don't care about making friends, i care about exploting the ambience of it and disrupting its stability, in other words killing Fe+Si, i'm a traditionalist assasin.
When they see your group dynamics then you're done, i know you are all thinking there's no way you're an INFP. I'm their future. Anyway, as i said before that typology aside, this is all about going from the global to the specifics, really N thing going on there, can't quite explain the images.
Bad things, well i've noticed that it is way more difficult for me to do well on a private date since most girls i meet, after seeing the abnormal me, they expect the "normal" side of me and this feels like being run over by a train. It's pure pressure.
Also i like to talk but if the other person gets what i'm saying and above everything is interested in what i have to say. I loved this from my ex. Also she was great in conversations. We could be talking for hours about really weird topics. And at the same time be really quiet for hours without saying anything. But with most of the girls...
There's a point where too much talking gets anoying and you have to pass to the S section. The holy trinity ---> TSF or Touching and sucking and fucking.
If this doesn't work, you're done, say goodbye and bring another.

 

[QuickTwist]

Another option, depending on if some people here are right about this guy or not, is to try reverse psychology. He might just get fed up with living his life the way he is living it now if playing it cool and make it boring for him by just going along with everything he wants to do. IDK though, that whole acid thing can be pretty entertaining.

 

[Grayman]

As I see it I give them an alternative they either can accept or refuse, while you just leave them to their own faith knowing they probably end up in misery. Just like Pilatus knows that Jesus will be killed if he chooses to not intervene, but somehow still tries to escape responsibility for the consequences of his decision. I wouldn't say you have a moral obligation to help those lost souls out, but it is kind of inconsistent for you to demand them to accept the consequences of their lack of actions, when you yourself can't handle the consequences of you choosing not to give a helping hand.

Sometimes a 'helping hand' can be a disabling one. Sometimes pushing them into a pile of shit is just what they need to go.... "wow I do need to pick this shit up!"

Judging on the time frame encouragment and examples are not going to cut it. He needs an asshole to push him down and some nice guy to help him back up. Maybe a little perspective will be gained from it. Maybe after falling to his lowest he will stop living what he has deemed pointless life and establish some meaning because what else has he got to lose anymore? Maybe it'll just be the end of it...but thats a much harder path than just sticking your foot out their in the real world telling it all to fuck off and if it wants grab you by the balls you'll just stare it in the eyes smiling knowing it cannot take your fucking choice to be who you want to be because that choice is only yours and is not contingent on their point of view. At least this way you can go out without giving anymore than you had to and you can be a self aware confident and purposeful human being instead of living your entire life unsatisfied and subjugated to the emotional slavery as influenced by our environment.

 

[Cherry Cola]

He needs to change his environment up first and foremost imo. It's hard to change yourself when everything around is always the same.

 

[Debase]

Sometimes a 'helping hand' can be a disabling one. Sometimes pushing them into a pile of shit is just what they need to go.... "wow I do need to pick this shit up!"

Judging on the time frame encouragment and examples are not going to cut it. He needs an asshole to push him down and some nice guy to help him back up. Maybe a little perspective will be gained from it. Maybe after falling to his lowest he will stop living what he has deemed pointless life and establish some meaning because what else has he got to lose anymore? Maybe it'll just be the end of it...but thats a much harder path than just sticking your foot out their in the real world telling it all to fuck off and if it wants grab you by the balls you'll just stare it in the eyes smiling knowing it cannot take your fucking choice to be who you want to be because that choice is only yours and is not contingent on their point of view. At least this way you can go out without giving anymore than you had to and you can be a self aware confident and purposeful human being instead of living your entire life unsatisfied and subjugated to the emotional slavery as influenced by our environment.

Well, I'm not sure this is a about motivation. He seems to be rather miserable already. Confusion is often misunderstood as disinterest in the case of INTP. You have to take in notice that alogical imperatives like "just do it" can be pretty hard for us to translate into actions. Things that seems obvious for other types isn't necessarily obvious for us. We want to get arguments and thoughts laid out for us to think through, which is not possible with this kinds of diffuse commands. I really hate when someone cut out those vital premises from an argument and leave us with some dubious claim, likely involving profane words to make it sound more powerful. I guess this guy is pretty clueless concerning what to really do about life, and I'm sure he's not the only one. Getting bad advice want solve anything.

I mean really, have you ever meet an INTP who act and seem to think like described in your post? Just reading it makes me want to write out all those hidden question marks.

He needs to change his environment up first and foremost imo. It's hard to change yourself when everything around is always the same.

Fully agree.

 

[Grayman]

The confusion is the inability to identify how thier emotions are driving thier highly developed logic centers. Fear of the unknown driving their logic to continually and efficiently identify issues that prevent them from changing. All the while they think they are logical they are unaware of how they are failing to be objective. Thier fear is a written program core to the individual driving them with the sole focus of avoidance and all thier logic was simply the minds way of achieving that.

You can supply them with logic all you want. Unless they are self aware and know thier own drives and how it affects thier logic they will not be reasonable and they will not change. You have to influence that emotional structure laying underneath all that logic in a way that fear becomes less of a driving force or another force takes the front seat.

 

[Brontosaurie]

The confusion is the inability to identify how thier emotions are driving thier highly developed logic centers. Fear of the unknown driving their logic to continually and efficiently identify issues that prevent them from changing. All the while they think they are logical they are unaware of how they are failing to be objective. Thier fear is a written program core to the individual driving them with the sole focus of avoidance and all thier logic was simply the minds way of achieving that.

very well phrased, beautiful

 

[pjoa09]

My friend is an IxTP. He's 27, a probable virgin, and has worked at a pizza place for the last 10 years. He seems pretty depressed much of the time. He's also voiced his concerns about his life in one of his more lucid, expressive times after tripping on acid.

Now of course, I am not suggesting I should try to help him change in ways he doesn't want to change. I really imagine that he is probably not too happy with his current state of affairs. He lives with his sister and her boyfriend, a mutual friend, and his main focus in life is video games. But maybe there is something I can do to help him self-actualize, or maybe it's just too intrusive and I should just let him be.

I sympathize with him, because I was once in a very similar state of hopelessness about romantic relationships and life being at all fulfilling, up until things started turning better for me when I was 22.

Thoughts?

I am a very probable IxTP virgin at the age of 23 and I have to say that pressure won't work.

You should not shame the virginity but shame the fact that he can't view women as friends if he can't.

Oh and fucking hurl that console to the wall. His phone too.

Look at what he does when he's not playing video games or working. That's where his heart truly is.

Then find an instutionalized form of it. Something where he can find a sense of community with his hobbies.

Other than that not much left.

 

[Debase]

The confusion is the inability to identify how thier emotions are driving thier highly developed logic centers. Fear of the unknown driving their logic to continually and efficiently identify issues that prevent them from changing. All the while they think they are logical they are unaware of how they are failing to be objective. Thier fear is a written program core to the individual driving them with the sole focus of avoidance and all thier logic was simply the minds way of achieving that.

You can supply them with logic all you want. Unless they are self aware and know thier own drives and how it affects thier logic they will not be reasonable and they will not change. You have to influence that emotional structure laying underneath all that logic in a way that fear becomes less of a driving force or another force takes the front seat.

If I pointed out a random person and asked you why he isn't a pilot, would you then say it's because he is missing proper education or would you assume that he's probably afraid of heights? Confusion is always inability to deduce conclusion from premises. Fear is a possible cause of this, preventing you to recognise patterns that are clear to others. If this is the case, not unlikely, you still though end up at square one. If a person aggress with you in terms of ends and what's need to be done, but is unable to act out of fear, you still have to find a way to cope with this fear. It's not an issue of reason as much as an issue of practice, and my point being that your argument seems to lack practical advice to solve a practical issue.

The assumption that killing old roots will make room for fresh ones is a bold claim that lacks evidence. Most likely you just end up with a dead tree.

 

[Grayman]

If I pointed out a random person and asked you why he isn't a pilot, would you then say it's because he is missing proper education or would you assume that he's probably afraid of heights? Confusion is always inability to deduce conclusion from premises. Fear is a possible cause of this, preventing you to recognise patterns that are clear to others. If this is the case, not unlikely, you still though end up at square one. If a person aggress with you in terms of ends and what's need to be done, but is unable to act out of fear, you still have to find a way to cope with this fear. It's not an issue of reason as much as an issue of practice, and my point being that your argument seems to lack practical advice to solve a practical issue.

The assumption that killing old roots will make room for fresh ones is a bold claim that lacks evidence. Most likely you just end up with a dead tree.

I have died if not through a sort of mental suicide. I was reborn a new hard oak. A blank canvas full of potential. Id not be who I am if who I was did not die. I would not have grown in rebirth if I hadn't continually invalidated my fears through proof of experience.

Perhaps I would have forever and continually remained a blank slate, a schizoid of sorts.

 

[Bock]

And what's wrong with being a virgin?

Inherently? Nothing. In practice/homo sapiens context? Alot.

Also this thread wouldn't exist if the guy was content with his life.

 

[Debase]

I have died if not through a sort of mental suicide. I was reborn a new hard oak. A blank canvas full of potential. Id not be who I am if who I was did not die. I would not have grown in rebirth if I hadn't continually invalidated my fears through proof of experience.

Perhaps I would have forever and continually remained a blank slate, a schizoid of sorts.

Well, isn't that what I said all along? Either it's an issue of fear or lack of knowledge you'll have to find a strategy to address the problem. And of course people would be more keen to act in a moment of despair. But I still consider it an unnecessary detour to wait for somebody to hit rock bottom, when the tools for approaching his shortcomings has been there all along. If you are used to face the fear yourself maybe you forgot that also you did have to start out somewhere. I have faith in the CBT-method, though it has to be used in a more sophisticated manner than speaking about grabbing cock and balls. Those kinds of statements are not informative, nor are they suited for someone who might need to start with smaller steps.

 

[Cherry Cola]

does this guy want things and himself to change? if not start by planting the idea in his head

 

[Grayman]

Well, isn't that what I said all along? Either it's an issue of fear or lack of knowledge you'll have to find a strategy to address the problem. And of course people would be more keen to act in a moment of despair. But I still consider it an unnecessary detour to wait for somebody to hit rock bottom, when the tools for approaching his shortcomings has been there all along. If you are used to face the fear yourself maybe you forgot that also you did have to start out somewhere. I have faith in the CBT-method, though it has to be used in a more sophisticated manner than speaking about grabbing cock and balls. Those kinds of statements are not informative, nor are they suited for someone who might need to start with smaller steps.

I suppose you are more correct than I would like to admit. I am feeling rather aggressive lately and am further irritated by the slew of endless INTP young men who continually go through this and my own inability to deal with frustration of the endlessness of suffering that seems to dominate the young male generation that exists today. I have attempted to help in any number of these type of threads but I am only aware of a few that I have had any success in.
My frustration is further elevated by my own ability to control my own fears and the simplicity of it and yet how impossible it is to impart a simple knowledge because it is only truly understood or more trusted through experience. I wish I could just simply hand them my confidence and knowledge of self so that they may be as happy as I am with life.

I'm taking a rest.

 

[Debase]

I suppose you are more correct than I would like to admit. I am feeling rather aggressive lately and am further irritated by the slew of endless INTP young men who continually go through this and my own inability to deal with frustration of the endlessness of suffering that seems to dominate the young male generation that exists today. I have attempted to help in any number of these type of threads but I am only aware of a few that I have had any success in.
My frustration is further elevated by my own ability to control my own fears and the simplicity of it and yet how impossible it is to impart a simple knowledge because it is only truly understood or more trusted through experience. I wish I could just simply hand them my confidence and knowledge of self so that they may be as happy as I am with life.

I'm taking a rest.

I feel your frustration and I too have my views on that topic as a growing problem in a depraved society. On the other hand I guess this isn't the thread to discuss political matters.

I must say your journey sounds quite interesting though. Don't you think it could be beneficial if you told your story, as giving insight to an alternate reality? Maybe you already have?

 

[Grayman]

I must say your journey sounds quite interesting though. Don't you think it could be beneficial if you told your story, as giving insight to an alternate reality? Maybe you already have?

It isn't easy for me to do. I'd feel that I've become that which I tried so hard not to be. My world consists of people fully ingrained in their own suffering and continually looking for validation for their self destructive habits. To announce my own suffering of the past and to be given validation or consolation of sorts renders me with guilt as if I was seeking attention and was becoming self absorbed myself betraying myself.

I have spent my whole life learning how to deal with my own issues and can never bring myself to ask for help but then with everything that I have done myself I am consumed by the idea that I need no help.

The only way I can get past this is to be general and impersonal with my revelations.

 

[QuickTwist]

It isn't easy for me to do. I'd feel that I've become that which I tried so hard not to be. My world consists of people fully ingrained in their own suffering and continually looking for validation for their self destructive habits. To announce my own suffering of the past and to be given validation or consolation of sorts renders me with guilt as if I was seeking attention and was becoming self absorbed myself betraying myself.

I have spent my whole life learning how to deal with my own issues and can never bring myself to ask for help but then with everything that I have done myself I am consumed by the idea that I need no help.

The only way I can get past this is to be general and impersonal with my revelations.

You are one of my favorite post-ers dude. Please don't leave.

 

[StevenM]

So he works at a pizza shop, and then comes home and plays video games. His friend assumes (at least) that he may not be fully content with his life, and I'm getting the impression people here have a problem.

Stop watching the bullshit extravagance that you see in the 'perfect' life in the movies and take a real look around. Nobody is content with their life. Everybody hates their shitty job, everybody has to sacrifice to make ends meet. Everybody wants less bills, and more spending money. Everybody feels a little bit lonely. We all do what we can to get by.

Oh, so you found enlightenment and full contentment and happiness? Whoopee-fucking-doo! Neil Armstrong went to the moon, does that mean we all have to too? Instead of aggressively 'shoving' and forcing your 'perfect' ideals onto others, why don't you shove them up your own ass.

"Oh, he needs his ass kicked, get a better job, and get a girlfriend", well what if he doesn't want one? If his housemates have a problem with him, they know they can tell him to move on. I'm sure he'll be able to get back on his feet again, at least, he would have no other choice but to do so. So what is it to anyone else?

I'm all for self-discipline. Not others-discipline, especially coming from ignorant control-fucks who don't even have any business to make judgement.

Some of you are acting like god-righteous ESTJ's.

 

[Grayman]

So he works at a pizza shop, and then comes home and plays video games. His friend assumes (at least) that he may not be fully content with his life, and I'm getting the impression people here have a problem.

Stop watching the bullshit extravagance that you see in the 'perfect' life in the movies and take a real look around. Nobody is content with their life. Everybody hates their shitty job, everybody has to sacrifice to make ends meet. Everybody wants less bills, and more spending money. Everybody feels a little bit lonely. We all do what we can to get by.

Oh, so you found enlightenment and full contentment and happiness? Whoopee-fucking-doo! Neil Armstrong went to the moon, does that mean we all have to too? Instead of aggressively 'shoving' and forcing your 'perfect' ideals onto others, why don't you shove them up your own ass.

"Oh, he needs his ass kicked, get a better job, and get a girlfriend", well what if he doesn't want one? If his housemates have a problem with him, they know they can tell him to move on. I'm sure he'll be able to get back on his feet again, at least, he would have no other choice but to do so. So what is it to anyone else?

I'm all for self-discipline. Not others-discipline, especially coming from ignorant control-fucks who don't even have any business to make judgement.

Some of you are acting like god-righteous ESTJ's.

Don't take it personal. It isn't about his job, or girlfriend specifically and there is no judgment there. It is about his dissatisfaction in these areas and more importantly his dissatisfaction in life. He needs a purpose to give life more meaning. These things can help with that but they are not qualities necessary for happiness unless the person requires them to feel more purpose. There are many ways a person can find purpose but these are an easy start and more common needs people have.

It isn't a pleasant thing being without purpose and it can be confusing and one can feel unimportant and lose themselves in meaninglessness and depression and apathy.

You're right, no one is fully content with their life but I have experienced the difference of being without purpose and now with it and I know that life can be nearly unbearable, or more accurately deeply empty, without it.

 

[StevenM]

a probable virgin. He seems pretty depressed much of the time. He's also voiced his concerns about his life in one of his more lucid, expressive times after tripping on acid.

I really imagine that he is probably not too happy with his current state of affairs.

I sympathize with him, because I was once in a very similar state of hopelessness about romantic relationships and life being at all fulfilling, up until things started turning better for me when I was 22.

Thoughts?

And from my fast, quick skim of this thread, this is the only information we have. A lot of what the OP posted seem like assumptions. So what if there was other possibilities?

What if he wasn't a virgin?
What if he's just a loner?
What if he suffers from a mental illness? (eg. a depressive disorder)
What if he was gay?

What if he doesn't complain much to anyone, or ask for help, aside from a few moments when he decided to confide with his very sympathetic friend?

Now those are just possibilities, doesn't mean they are true. And because of the vagueness, maybe I'm biasing my interpretation by easily putting myself in his shoes.

It is about his dissatisfaction in these areas and more importantly his dissatisfaction in life. He needs a purpose to give life more meaning. These things can help with that but they are not qualities necessary for happiness unless the person requires them to feel more purpose. There are many ways a person can find purpose but these are an easy start and more common needs people have.

It isn't a pleasant thing being without purpose and it can be confusing and one can feel unimportant and lose themselves in meaninglessness and depression and apathy.

You're right, no one is fully content with their life but I have experienced the difference of being without purpose and now with it and I know that life can be nearly unbearable, or more accurately deeply empty, without it.

Most people go through this struggle of purpose and meaning, and hopefully gradually and eventually overcome it. Sometimes people find purpose and happiness early, others much later, and sometimes it's a continual oscillation between a broken life, and mending it.

It's a personal struggle, meant only to be defeated by the blade of it's victim and no one else. One person's method may be ineffective for another person's beast.

He's 27 years old now, long gone are the days where he needed a parent's discipline. In his adult life, he has to now build up and draw the discipline from within. And when an adult learns from his failures, and corrects his own path, there is no greater source of self-esteem and confidence.

So one last possibility:

What if his lifestyle and current circumstances are right in line and synced with his meaning and life purpose?

 

[Rainer]

What if he wasn't a virgin?
What if he's just a loner?
What if he suffers from a mental illness? (eg. a depressive disorder)
What if he was gay?

Possible, possible, probable, and improbable in my book. But yeah, I see your point. I really don't know.

He hasn't asked for help, it's just something I think about.

What if his lifestyle and current circumstances are right in line and synced with his meaning and life purpose?

That is indeed possible, and I would respect that. It seems unlikely, but I cannot be sure.

Thanks a lot for the really thoughtful response, TMills. You are totally right. I often have looked back on the days before I got into seeking adult goals, like finishing school, a decent-paying job, and romantic relationships, as a simpler and certainly more comfortable time. I had even mostly circumvented my feelings of inadequacy by being avoidant and taking care not to let my mind wander into uncomfortable places, working for the family business and being able to hide myself away from people whose circumstances threatened me. I could have continued a long time that way, but I chanced upon a way out and faked it until I made it. Then again, I've always had enough interest in the real world and things people really care about like ecology, music, architecture, literature, film. The universe of video games always seemed way too ugly, simplistic, and circumscribed to me.

and now you guys are going to think I am an INFP

 

[EyeSeeCold]

He needs to change his environment up first and foremost imo. It's hard to change yourself when everything around is always the same.

Uh, what's wrong with working in a pizza shop?

And what's wrong with being a virgin?

It sounds like he's supporting himself, so what's the big deal?

I bet the most stressful thing that makes him miserable, is his objective status among other people. Perhaps the pizza shop sucks, and perhaps he is lonely. But nothing beats the actual judgement laid out by others because he's a virgin pizza boy. Perhaps, he's critical of himself as well.

I think there is a way you could help him. If he is comfortable around you, go dining and to the movies, and get him out a bit. Go for walks and talks and drives around the countryside. Attend events and fairs and what not. Slowly and gently introduce him to people.

Show him a world where people are not all that half bad. And install the idea that he is not as half bad either.

Whatever boundaries you have, make them clear as soon as you realize them.

^ These two posts. Don't tell your friend what to do, that's being his parent.

You can offer him a better lifestyle, show him suggestions and opportunities in the world and let him know you'd be available. Imo making him feel like his lifestyle/behavior is dysfunctional and needs correction would not be as beneficial as growing your friendship through these mutual activities.

Though if that's outside of your interest, at least don't make him feel bad if he's taking care of himself. He most likely wouldn't want to change anyway as long as his situation/environment is the same, it's how he's adapted to life.

 

[StevenM]

Possible, possible, probable, and improbable in my book. But yeah, I see your point. I really don't know.

He hasn't asked for help, it's just something I think about.


That is indeed possible, and I would respect that. It seems unlikely, but I cannot be sure.

Thanks a lot for the really thoughtful response, TMills. You are totally right. I often have looked back on the days before I got into seeking adult goals, like finishing school, a decent-paying job, and romantic relationships, as a simpler and certainly more comfortable time. I had even mostly circumvented my feelings of inadequacy by being avoidant and taking care not to let my mind wander into uncomfortable places, working for the family business and being able to hide myself away from people whose circumstances threatened me. I could have continued a long time that way, but I chanced upon a way out and faked it until I made it. Then again, I've always had enough interest in the real world and things people really care about like ecology, music, architecture, literature, film. The universe of video games always seemed way too ugly, simplistic, and circumscribed to me.

and now you guys are going to think I am an INFP

I got pretty pissy in this thread. But I just wanted to make sure you knew that it definitely wasn't directed at you.

I may be redundant, but wth, I'll reiterate what I think.

I think that's nice you have concern. But make sure you know you don't have any responsibilities. Whatever you do with him, do for your own benefit as well.

If you enjoy being his friend, and he with you, I think the most meaningful thing in the world is just enjoying each other's company. That alone helps immensely.