How Far Could/Would/Do You Go?

[TimeAsylums]

It is somewhat apparent that many of the members here have, what I might call, 'easily offendable sensibilities.'

Recent example: Somefoolishfoo' exclaiming that his dream girl could not be in a wheel chair, many members understood his intentions, while others derided him.

Feel free to use any social/whatever example of your experience or theoretical, whatever, ranging from jobs/people/money/death.


I would gladly take someone else's girlfriend if I thought she would be better with me/if i wanted her

I would gladly shortsell a coworker if that meant getting ahead.

I constantly manipulate people because I know what is better for them than they do.
^not up for argument, I'm interested in how much manipulation you are 'willing/actually' do.

Not looking for a goddamn 'peace/least offense' argument either, I simply want to know, how far you are willing to take things 'for your self.'



Basically, are you one of those "I'd rather say I'm sorry after the fact than not have tried at all" or what? Not asking you to justify your actions (although you can if you want)

 

[Jennywocky]

Hmmm. Well, in general, I shy away strongly from the things you've offered. I have a "non-manipulation, non-imposition" policy and have suffered disadvantage IRL because of the strength of that tendency. Sure, I'll comment on something, but it's not up to me to make decisions for others for other people, and I generally consider manipulation a form of possession and a violation of autonomy. Woo someone and inspire them, yes; manipulate and control them, no.

I think, however, if I could acquire a lot of money without getting caught or I found money that no one had reported stolen, I wouldn't turn it in without having someone actually report it. I read this week about some guy that found a bunch of old gems and coins in the Alps (worth, what, $30K?) and he actually turned it in. It ended up being lost 50 years ago in a plane crash. I don't think I would have turned it in, it would have been "finders keepers," and I wouldn't have felt much guilt if any over it.

(It's less about the money and more about having opportunities open up that I prior could not prior pursue and/or not having to worry about dealing with the restraints that money currently engenders. Money = possibilities and freedom, to me.)

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Not looking for a goddamn 'peace/least offense' argument either, I simply want to know, how far you are willing to take things 'for your self.'

Basically to the level at which I'm comfortable. If I'm happy I no longer need to make myself happy.

But I don't place restrictions on method.

Hmmm. Well, in general, I shy away strongly from the things you've offered. I have a "non-manipulation, non-imposition" policy and have suffered disadvantage IRL because of the strength of that tendency.

Woo someone and inspire them, yes; manipulate and control them, no.

This can actually be used as effective manipulation. It's one of the differences between Robin Hood and Scarface. (Which you're actually doing with that whole woo and inspiration thing).

*pictures Jenny in lincoln green tights with a bow of yew*

 

[Jennywocky]

This can actually be used as effective manipulation. It's one of the differences between Robin Hood and Scarface. (Which you're actually doing with that whole woo and inspiration thing).

I'll be very clear and state that "manipulation is an attempt to cloud / muddy choice or even strip it away, in order to get what one wants."

I suppose "wooing" is best when it's not presenting a lopsided view to manipulate, but is actually honestly stating what's in it for the person, so that they can make a clear choice.

But I'm probably a terrible wooer too.

*pictures Jenny in lincoln green tights with a bow of yew*

ha, I thought you'd seal the pun and say "bow of woo."

Hey, guys -- I think it would be a great idea and good for PR for all the INTP guys here to dress up like Robin Hood's merry men! What do you say? Halloween's comin'!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtmbZnXSQ7k

Hmmm..... Not Mel Brooks' finest moment.

^^ see? Terrible woostress.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

I'm not interested in manipulating/ being manipulated.

I'm interested in authenticity in myself and in others.

I am aware that others attempt to manipulate me every moment of everyday. I try and ignore this as best I can and focus on authentic experiences.

For example, I actually mute any and all commercials and turn away from the screen. If a family member or friend tries to manipulate me and I detect it (sometimes I don't) I immediately/ on the spot render them impotent by calling them out.

The only situations where I might be interested in manipulating others would be in situations where the quality of life (access to decent food/ clothing/ shelter/ medical care) of myself or loved ones might be compromised. Then its gloves off.

Other than that...who cares about getting rich and sh!t by being a manipulative douchebag? Oh yeah...lying scheming douchebags. I realized awhile ago that I could be one of them because so many opportunities present themselves but made a conscious decision to sacrifice douchebaggery for a life of honesty/ integrity (at least as far as I can personally muster)

 

[Hadoblado]

I don't limit myself, but I am habitually honest.

I'm not interested in improving my position, particularly at the expense of others. If this were to change, I'm not sure how far I'd go.

I guess I actually value being trusted more than most things I could gain by being untrustworthy.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

Basically, are you one of those "I'd rather say I'm sorry after the fact than not have tried at all" or what? Not asking you to justify your actions (although you can if you want)

I don't understand this part I'm kind of slow.

I see opportunities to manipulate people and then end up doing what I think is the fair thing to do. For example, over the summer I really wanted a laptop and my aunt had the perfect PC for me. She is a complete idiot when it comes to computers so whenever something happened to it she would come running to me asking for help. One time, it wouldn't turn on and she was ready to give up on it, but first she asked me to figure out what was wrong with it and try to fix it while she was at work. As soon as I got it I automatically knew I could fix it but I had thought about telling her it wouldn't ever work again and keeping it for myself. Having her computer would have shattered my boredom and I knew it. With high CPU and awesome graphics I could have played MMOs all day. I decided to fix it and give it back, rejecting the small reward she tried to give me.

 

[Minuend]

Truth, knowledge and freedom are my intrigues. I have no interest in petty social games with people who will never evolve intellectually. Nor do I feel any desire to claim what other people have in their posession.

For me it's not about "how far I would go", because the motivation is not there in the first place. Other people's girlfriends, career, objects mean nothing to me. They are not worth more than the empty value we give them.

A lot of the things discussed on this board, like this topic, is just in a different realm of reality in which I do not partake.

 

[Jennywocky]

Other than that...who cares about getting rich and sh!t by being a manipulative douchebag? Oh yeah...lying scheming douchebags. I realized awhile ago that I could be one of them because so many opportunities present themselves but made a conscious decision to sacrifice douchebaggery for a life of honesty/ integrity (at least as far as I can personally muster)

Had a friend (ENTP) who needed money badly for his family and spent a short time as a car salesman. It didn't take, and he had to get out and find something else; too much douchebagging, and he found he couldn't sacrifice his integrity to play the game successfully.

 

[Cognisant]

I don't really manipulate people, not that I wouldn't it's just that I don't really see any opportunity.

I dunno maybe this is a semantics thing, I'm constantly aware of how even the slightest factors will affect me and I behave in accordance to self interest, but I don't trick people, I don't need to, if I want something from somebody or for them to do something I can usually convince them to do so with perfectly valid reasons, or I don't bother. (Too much effort/trouble)

As for finding money, I won't steal it if I know who it belongs to but if it's genuinely lost I have no qualms about keeping it myself as there's little point to giving it to someone else who is only going to do the same, though if I discover who it belongs to after the fact I'll pay it back to them, that's the thing about money, it's abstract.

During the "wheelchair girl" discussion I sided with the decision to discriminate, well aware that it's not fair on her from one perspective, but what is equality and since when does something as personal as dating involve moral obligations? I believe the counter point was made that dating someone without intent of there being a relationship would be dishonest and just as unfair, it's not nice but it's just one of those no win scenarios.

So yeah all in all I consider myself to be ruthlessly self interested, but not evil, I'd do anything in the right circumstances but exceptional circumstances that necessitate extreme actions rarely occur, indeed I actively avoid exceptional circumstances of any kind.

 

[Absurdity]

I don't think I've ever been arrogant enough to even try to manipulate someone. If anything I am too open and honest, rather than too deceptive.

When I am able to foresee an unpleasant result of someone's actions, I am much more the type to try and warn them, and when that fails say "I told you so," rather than try and subtly steer them in a different direction. Mistakes are great teachers, and I don't think people should be sheltered from them.

Manipulation for my own gain doesn't even really occur to me. Those sorts of games are more effort than they're worth, and if and when they blow up in your face, everyone realizes what an asshole you are. I like to imagine that I'm not some sort of moral black hole, and since that seems to be the case I don't think I could ever handle the cognitive dissonance that would arise from my underhanded behavior.

Honestly, manipulation and "power politics" really just strikes me as childish. It's unbecoming of a respectable man or woman. There have been times when my perhaps idealistic outlook on this matter has been to my detriment, but I have usually either totally severed contact with the dishonorable person, or destroyed them.

 

[TimeAsylums]

[A bunch of interesting interpretations on people's take on "manipulation."

Just to further it a bit,

Manipulation may not necessarily be for "one's own gain." It could be applied to any form of whatever. As for manipulating, I will first try to "woo," but if that fails, I would much rather do what I have to then let them fail. This is a very interesting point for some people; some of you (maybe) would rather let someone fail? Teaching them a lesson? What if it's very important?

Switching the boards around a bit, I would very much rather be manipulated than not see something coming for myself. Whether that be life/health/money/relationships etc.

I value self integrity and agency as well. I don't enjoy "power trips/fights," but yet they exist, and you usually do have to deal with them.

I would indeed keep money if I found it.

Since someone did decide to bring up the wheelchair thing - how is it fair for us to decide what was fair to him or her. Is attempting to 'force someone to be, what we might think "open minded"' right? Personally it wouldn't bother be a lick or a fuck if she was in a wheelchair, but if it does someone else, is that really close-mindedness? He didn't degrade her as a person, it was a legitimate concern (as a number of members posted). I am not equating being in a wheelchair to any of the following, but simple examples, wouldn't you "weigh" in the option of someone who had mental health problems/money problems/drug problems/anything, I definitely am...open-minded...if you will, but because certain conditions concern another person doesn't make them less open-minded, they simply have a more concrete sense of what they may want.

Another good number of you simply mentioned "physical objects." Don't let me limit the discussion to mere physical objects, it could be anything.

//random rambling, will reply to quotes now lol


QUOTE=Jennywocky;392777]policy and have suffered disadvantage IRL because of the strength of that tendency.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I was curious as to what means people would employ if they wanted to.

I'm not interested in manipulating/ being manipulated.

Disregarding physical objects, how about for the "greater good?"
Note: Please do not go on a T tangent in philosophy on how no one can know what is really actually greater etc, just roll with it.

I'm not interested in improving my position, particularly at the expense of others. If this were to change, I'm not sure how far I'd go.

Same for you then, would you be willing to manipulate/do whatever for something "good/greater good" etc?

Truth, knowledge and freedom are my intrigues. I have no interest in petty social games with people who will never evolve intellectually. Nor do I feel any desire to claim what other people have in their posession.

For me it's not about "how far I would go", because the motivation is not there in the first place. Other people's girlfriends, career, objects mean nothing to me. They are not worth more than the empty value we give them.

A lot of the things discussed on this board, like this topic, is just in a different realm of reality in which I do not partake.

Alright, so say it's not just petty social games. Say it is something you value, how about then?




//Assuming most people would gladly kill another to save their own life, seemingly less so for physical objects/improvements, how about if it was something you valued?

 

[Hadoblado]

Same for you then, would you be willing to manipulate/do whatever for something "good/greater good" etc?

Yes, so long as it doesn't lead to a larger disadvantage in the longer term. Too many manipulative people count their winnings too soon. People don't like being manipulated, so any manipulation you do has to be done in such a way that nobody realises, done in a way that is justifiable post hoc, or simply worth whatever loss in social capital is incurred.

 

[DelusiveNinja]

This is a very interesting point for some people; some of you (maybe) would rather let someone fail? Teaching them a lesson? What if it's very important?

I was just wondering if that could be considered manipulation. If it can be, then I am guilty of a lot of manipulation. I can foresee the outcome of some situations and just watch them unfold. It's so funny, watching people walk to their death after having dug their grave. I guess this is one of the many reasons I'm considered to be an asshole. I learned something new about myself today; nice question. Reminds me of the first episode of Gantz. I would have let that bum get slaughtered by the train.

 

[Minuend]

[A bunch of interesting interpretations on people's take on "manipulation."

Just to further it a bit,

Manipulation may not necessarily be for "one's own gain." It could be applied to any form of whatever. As for manipulating, I will first try to "woo," but if that fails, I would much rather do what I have to then let them fail. This is a very interesting point for some people; some of you (maybe) would rather let someone fail? Teaching them a lesson? What if it's very important?

People will never learn and grow if they don't get the chance to solve their own problems. If you don't even give them advice, but go behind the scenes, then they would have no clue how to solve a similar problem in the future. Teach a man how to fish...

You can give people advice, but if they refuse to listen then they should have the freedom to make their own decisions. There is not really any right or wrong decision, there is no objective path to tread.

Switching the boards around a bit, I would very much rather be manipulated than not see something coming for myself. Whether that be life/health/money/relationships etc.

I always do extensive research whenever deciding between options. It is highly unlikely anyone would spend hours doing the same before "manipulating" me.

I value self integrity and agency as well. I don't enjoy "power trips/fights," but yet they exist, and you usually do have to deal with them.

You deal by not enganging.

Since someone did decide to bring up the wheelchair thing

That was you.

- how is it fair for us to decide what was fair to him or her. Is attempting to 'force someone to be, what we might think "open minded"' right? Personally it wouldn't bother be a lick or a fuck if she was in a wheelchair, but if it does someone else, is that really close-mindedness? He didn't degrade her as a person, it was a legitimate concern (as a number of members posted). I am not equating being in a wheelchair to any of the following, but simple examples, wouldn't you "weigh" in the option of someone who had mental health problems/money problems/drug problems/anything, I definitely am...open-minded...if you will, but because certain conditions concern another person doesn't make them less open-minded, they simply have a more concrete sense of what they may want.

I have difficulty understanding this paragraph. Are you purely arguing whether something is open-minded or not? Because how much "open-minded" something or someone is, remain an irrelevant factor when deciding what is wise to do. It's open minded to eat corpses, doesn't make it a good idea. (Because of disease risk factor among other things).

Disregarding physical objects, how about for the "greater good?"
Note: Please do not go on a T tangent in philosophy on how no one can know what is really actually greater etc, just roll with it.
Same for you then, would you be willing to manipulate/do whatever for something "good/greater good" etc?

This would move the topic of reality into hypothetical situations as several people here don't believe in the term of "greater good", myself included. It would be like asking us what we would do if we were religious. Which is all good and well, but shouldn't be confused with the OP.

Alright, so say it's not just petty social games. Say it is something you value, how about then?

There is naught. There are a few humans I value. Apartment, posessions, career could be left behind immidiatly. They are nice to have for amusement and entertainment, but I am not attached to these objects.

However, if someone made an aggressive move toward me first, things might be different. That is irrelevant to this topic, though.

//Assuming most people would gladly kill another to save their own life, seemingly less so for physical objects/improvements, how about if it was something you valued?

Nitpicking, but most people wouldn't "gladly" kill another human.

 

[Jennywocky]

Since someone did decide to bring up the wheelchair thing - how is it fair for us to decide what was fair to him or her. Is attempting to 'force someone to be, what we might think "open minded"' right? Personally it wouldn't bother be a lick or a fuck if she was in a wheelchair, but if it does someone else, is that really close-mindedness? He didn't degrade her as a person, it was a legitimate concern (as a number of members posted). I am not equating being in a wheelchair to any of the following, but simple examples, wouldn't you "weigh" in the option of someone who had mental health problems/money problems/drug problems/anything, I definitely am...open-minded...if you will, but because certain conditions concern another person doesn't make them less open-minded, they simply have a more concrete sense of what they may want.

My only real comment at this point on that example (brought up twice now here) is that I barely know the guy, he lives in NZ, and he was just making some casual comments on the forum without paying much attention to the overtones of what he was saying. He went out with her, said he had a great time, and if he decided not to see her again because they didn't click, then who cares? If he made that decision for more carnal or shallow reasons, then okay, maybe I think that's shallow; but again, who cares? It's his issue.

I remember taking more issue to someone who tentatively accused the INTJ girl of "not being truthful" for waiting so long to tell him; I think that's lame if one bothers to project into the experience of a person who often finds themselves alone because of an overshadowing trait, especially because we all hide things until a first meeting (or a few meetings in) with people in order to make sure someone has a fair understanding of us before dropping us. I suppose how we present information can be considered a kind of "manipulation," depending on how far it is taken and whether a person ultimately is being positioned to make decisions for themselves; manipulating someone to stay with you seems a pretty dreadful thing, presenting information to them in a way where they have a chance to see a more full picture of you before making their (free) decision is far more ambiguous and up to individual interpretation.

I don't see the need to continue to drag the wheelchair thing up in new threads, though, and would be happy to see it stay in the dead thread where it originated.

 

[TimeAsylums]

People will never learn and grow if they don't get the chance to solve their own problems. If you don't even give them advice, but go behind the scenes, then they would have no clue how to solve a similar problem in the future. Teach a man how to fish...

You can give people advice, but if they refuse to listen then they should have the freedom to make their own decisions. There is not really any right or wrong decision, there is no objective path to tread.

Not attempting to argue for objectivity. So, is there any case in which you would manipulate?

You deal by not enganging.

What if non-engagement doesnt get you to your objective?

That was you.

lol Minued, I was referring to someone responding to it.

I have difficulty understanding this paragraph. Are you purely arguing whether something is open-minded or not? Because how much "open-minded" something or someone is, remain an irrelevant factor when deciding what is wise to do. It's open minded to eat corpses, doesn't make it a good idea. (Because of disease risk factor among other things).

No, that's not what I was arguing. I was legitimately confused at the comments towards Somefoolishfoo'

Ugh, so nitpicky, Minued.

This would move the topic of reality into hypothetical situations as several people here don't believe in the term of "greater good", myself included. It would be like asking us what we would do if we were religious. Which is all good and well, but shouldn't be confused with the OP.

Not getting into this either, you're looking into my points (which im not criticizing) too much, I was just attempting to get a gist across

There is naught. There are a few humans I value. Apartment, posessions, career could be left behind immidiatly. They are nice to have for amusement and entertainment, but I am not attached to these objects.

Way to diffuse my question :P

Nitpicking,

so much nitpicking! :P

 

[Absurdity]

I don't see the need to continue to drag the wheelchair thing up in new threads.

Agreed.

 

[TimeAsylums]

@Jenny, I wasn't attempting to make it a whole issue, I'm just curious on the divide that separated most of the commentors. I don't see it as immature or shallow

 

[Minuend]

Not attempting to argue for objectivity. So, is there any case in which you would manipulate?

There are probably actions considered "bad" that I could engage in were someone being aggressive in anyway towards my pack or myself. Manipulation would probably be one of the less effective and reliable methods, though.

What if non-engagement doesnt get you to your objective?

I don't have objectives that are crucially important to me. Even if there were, I'm always flexible and would probably be able to take advantage of the situation or change my preference in some way.

Not getting into this either, you're looking into my points (which im not criticizing) too much, I was just attempting to get a gist across

They were two seperate issues, an important distinction.

What gist? That all people will eventually in some scenario in some universe manipulate?

Way to diffuse my question :P

Elaborate.

so much nitpicking! :P

I'm manipulating you into improving your logic and precision.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

...As for finding money, I won't steal it if I know who it belongs to but if it's genuinely lost I have no qualms about keeping it myself as there's little point to giving it to someone else who is only going to do the same, though if I discover who it belongs to after the fact I'll pay it back to them, that's the thing about money, it's abstract.
...

For what its worth I found ~550$ in cash in a small purse in a public place about a year ago. The identification included a social security card with a name but no other contact info.

Boy was it tempting. Nobody knew I had it. I didn't tell anyone, either.

Still, I knew that I knew so I did some googling and such and found the poor(er) woman's email. Emailed her and had her confirm her identity (asked her some questions about some additional objects I found inside).

Told her the only cash I was going to use was the exact amount it would cost to snail mail it to her (I had previously figured it out at the post office). She received it. I still haven't told anyone who I'm familiar with. No families, no friends. I guess a reason to hasn't surfaced. I think this is the first time I am ever publicly (well, as far as random interweb forums go) sharing this happening. I forgot about this until reading this thread.

Priceless.

Now: what if it had been 550,000$? 1,000x the temptation?

 

[Perfectly Normal Beast]

I'm interested in how much manipulation you are 'willing/actually' do.

For me, attempting to modify someone's behaviour with anything other than direct honesty and reasoning is (virtually always?) reprehensible and indicative that the manipulator views the target as nothing more than an object to be manouvered to one's own ends.
My parents were extremely manipulative so i learnt all the tricks very young and had to become a master or succumb to their games.
As i got older i realised that such games can be very isolating as one loses much respect...and can come to despise those who succumb to your manipulations because one can't help think of them as inferior. Hopefully at this stage you also realise that this is not a very nice way to treat people i.e. as pawns to direct at your own whim.
Now i do not engage in manipulation and constantly check my own actions for accidental well-intentioned manipulations.
In cases where i detect that someone is trying to manipulate me, i consider my code is void and i beat them at their own bullshit everytime, sometimes by pretending their deceptions are working lol.

 

[OrLevitate]

mob rools
comes down to forsaking progress for deliquescent complacency of the good ol' good ol'