High stakes poker MBTI poll

[kantor1003]

Pretty interesting. The op asks high stakes poker players, or long term winners at the game, to take the mbti test. The replies speak for themselves.

Oh, and you should play poker :P


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19/high-stakes-pl-nl/personality-types-poker-pros-774716/

I'm a total scrub and normally have no business posting in the high stakes forum at all, but I've dedicated a lot of study to Jungian psychological types and so I felt I could share something a little useful here.

Different types do well in different kinds of situations. The NT (iNtuitive-Thinking) types do best at strategy games in general because iNtuition is best for abstract perception of relationships and Thinking is best for processing them into logical wholes.

Online poker is dominated mostly by NTJs (e.g. Phil Hellmuth or Tom Dwan); this type is best at simultaneously considering numerous conceptual standpoints (referred to by Jung as introverted iNtuition or "Ni") and methodically planning the most effective structure for producing empirical results (extroverted Thinking or "Te".)

Illustrative Dwan quote: "It's all a matter of putting them on a range and responding effectively." He focuses on the application that gets the measurable result.

You'll also find some NTPs (e.g. Phil Laak or Ed Miller), who use Ne (finding abstract patterns and connections across unrelated contexts) and Ti (organizing observed information into an internal set of logical relationships that necessitate the rules of systems) but this style of thought is often more conducive to finding and solving novel/interesting situations than to actually producing the strongest objective results. (I myself am an ENTP and have trouble with placing results over curiosity, at times.)

So while NTs in general dominate the field, the main difference is that NTJs are more naturally focused on application/results while NTPs do better with pure theory/structural framework.

I would guess that Ivey is a probable INTP, as he once said of himself: "I'm a gambling addict--it's just lucky I found a game I can beat." Ivey has even been known to play high stakes craps, knowingly taking a -EV situation just for the mental stimulation--most NTJs wouldn't dream of this. He focuses on producing interesting situations that define the extremes of the framework, regardless of their objective value...he just happens to be smart enough to beat a game that he plays mainly because he finds it structurally interesting.

When you get into live poker you'll find a lot more STP type players, because they will use Ti along with Se (extroverted Sensing), which prompts extreme attention to and immediate responsiveness to the physical details of one's real and immediate surroundings. Needless to say Se is pretty screwed online, but in live poker it makes a tremendous difference in terms of reading body language/personal dynamics and responding instinctively with aggression at the right times.

Example: Doyle is probably ISTP (best at Ti, second best at Se.) He plays largely on gut feeling and picking up on the vibes his opponents give off. STP players will sometimes make plays that seem mathematically absurd to the theory-oriented NT player (whom Doyle aptly describes as "like playing against a computer") but can work because STPs will pick up subtle physical cues that NTs are not naturally attuned to.

As a result many STPs are great live players, but the less disciplined ones can suffer from tilt problems when Se's instinctive aggression gets out of line...Gus Hansen, Mike Matusow and Sam Farha all seem like probable STP types.

There's a lot more to this. I'm not sure if anyone really cares, but if so feel free to share your thoughts on it.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

Kind of interesting, but nothing surprising really. I decided long ago that I am going to pick up online poker if I ever turn 18...

 

[chrisiak]

I started poker when I was 21 after i watched Rounders the first time. In my opinion this movie started a little poker boom. Now a second part should come soon and maybe there will be another poker boom ... I hope so because today most poker player are very intelligent and are very good anyway

 

[kantor1003]

Yeah, the competition is way tougher now then what it was a couple of years ago. So many recourses available out there for learning.

 

[WittyUsername]

I would really love to play when i get in a decent college.

 

[kinetickyle]

This is interesting. Too bad I suck at, and therefore don't enjoy poker.

 

[snafupants]

These high caliber players are basically human calculators. They might look like half wits and be taking swigs of drinks the whole night, but in the interviews and even the commentary after a hand is through, you get a feel for how much they are thinking the whole time. Phil Hellmuth is a lot of fun to watch because he sincerely believes he is the most adept player at the table - which may/may not be true - and he constantly puts himself in the shoes of the other player while making odds in his head. His criticism is hilarious too. That said, he would probably be very annoying to play with because he agonizes over every single hand and talks so much shit.

 

[kantor1003]

Yeah, he isn't really one of the players I look up to. Folks like Tom Dwan, Phil Galfond, Jungleman12, patrik antonius and obviously Phil Ivey, I have more respect for when it comes to poker. Most of them handle themselves way better at the table as well. These are cash players though. I'm sure even Helmuth himself would agree that when it comes to cash games, he is no match for these guys (if not, at least he would allow himself to say that he don't have an edge against them).

Would be awesome to see Helmuth against Tom heads up over like 50k hands. If that happened I'd be willing to lay 2 to 1 against Helmuth.

 

[snafupants]

This was literally the first video that came up for Phil and I laughed the whole time; he is such a prima donna. Someone at the end said he was doing this crap for camera time, and that is absolutely right. He was folding from the beginning.
YouTube - Phil Hellmuth blow up video

 

[WittyUsername]

Haha hellmuth is freakin funny almost always. He used to be hell lot aggressive back in his prime. Even now he plays some hands brilliantly but that aggression has gone down.

I heard a story sometime back that Hellmuth asked Ivey, at some table, why he didn't play golf with Tiger Woods. Ivey replied that he wasn't that good yet..then Hellmuth said "But you play poker with me!" haha


The player i like the most right now has to be Daniel Negreanu. His reads and composure at the table are quite impressive. He just makes me smile whenever i sit down to watch a poker video.

 

[RobertJ]

Thanks for the information. I was into watching high stakes (and playing low stakes) poker for a while back and frequently wondered about the personality types of some of the more prominent players. I always enjoyed Gus Hansen's style of play.

One of my favorite poker videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EprGnEjm2oE&feature=related

 

[kantor1003]

Yeah, that Tony G vid is a classic

More helmuth videos.

YouTube - Phil Hellmuth needs to calm the fuck down

Love the way he boils over at 5.50

YouTube - Hellmuth Blows Up vs. Dragomir - WSOP 2008

 

[snafupants]

Thanks for the information. I was into watching high stakes (and playing low stakes) poker for a while back and frequently wondered about the personality types of some of the more prominent players. I always enjoyed Gus Hansen's style of play.

One of my favorite poker videos - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EprGnEjm2oE&feature=related

Is there something I am missing here. That loudmouth only had 3:2 odds going into the flop (with a 2 for a kicker), and he acted like it was a sure thing and he was the man. haha I was waiting to see him get burned on the river, but no...

 

[smithcommajohn]

Very interesting thread! Phil Laak is my favorite poker player and I'm not surprised at all to discover him as being NTP.

I will disagree on one front, that of the S being better at live poker. Sensing may be a good quality for noticing particular poker tells and whatnot, but my success at live poker has relied almost entirely on my iNtuition. I can't tell you the specifics on how I know whether or not a person is bluffing or betting the nuts, but it's something that comes very natural to me and hasn't ever steered me wrong.

I'm interested in talking strategy with other INTP poker players.

 

[ked]

Dwan is a Socionics ISTj. He has also played some chess; you can find two of his games online where he got rook odds against an international chess master and Dwan lost both games (and 50k or whatever the bet was).

Ivey is an ESTP and a gambling addict like so many STs are. Ivey plays craps etc. that the NTs would generally not be stupid enough to play.

Doyle is also an ESTP, another idiot gambler who also could have said like Ivey that he is lucky to be so good at poker. Doyle also was a top basketball player (how many NTs are?).

Phil Hellmuth is an ENFP and horribly bad at cash games (he is not strong with logic and is plenty emotional) but a strong tournament player like Daniel Negreanu (another NF).

Laak is an ENTP, as is Chris Ferguson. But the highest cash game players are just about without exception STs, some NTs having been there is some high limit TV-games but they are rarely seen at the high cash games. Mike Caro played the highest of 100-200 limit holdem and got beat, and Ed Miller played 1/2 no-limit holdem online and didn't lose but that's all. The NTs have done the best at limit games and even the best of them have often just avoided a lose when it's big bet poker. I know other NTs too and it has more often than not been the same story though there are up to professional NT-players at medium high limits, but the whole poker thing is mainly an ST-thing, and of them it's mainly for the ESTPs and ISTjs (Socionics) though the ESTJs and ISTPs could be considered to having the same amount of ability as the NTs. The additional problem with poker is that the iNtuitive dominants get bored as it's rather lacking in iNtuition, it fitting best to STs.

 

[Awaken]

After undergrad I funded my life with online poker for a little bit. Used to just 3-4 table all day long. Was soooooo easy to make money by playing pretty standard and only playing loose vs people you know to be aggro for no reason.

 

[smithcommajohn]

Dwan is a Socionics ISTj. He has also played some chess; you can find two of his games online where he got rook odds against an international chess master and Dwan lost both games (and 50k or whatever the bet was).

Ivey is an ESTP and a gambling addict like so many STs are. Ivey plays craps etc. that the NTs would generally not be stupid enough to play.

Doyle is also an ESTP, another idiot gambler who also could have said like Ivey that he is lucky to be so good at poker. Doyle also was a top basketball player (how many NTs are?).

Phil Hellmuth is an ENFP and horribly bad at cash games (he is not strong with logic and is plenty emotional) but a strong tournament player like Daniel Negreanu (another NF).

Laak is an ENTP, as is Chris Ferguson. But the highest cash game players are just about without exception STs, some NTs having been there is some high limit TV-games but they are rarely seen at the high cash games. Mike Caro played the highest of 100-200 limit holdem and got beat, and Ed Miller played 1/2 no-limit holdem online and didn't lose but that's all. The NTs have done the best at limit games and even the best of them have often just avoided a lose when it's big bet poker. I know other NTs too and it has more often than not been the same story though there are up to professional NT-players at medium high limits, but the whole poker thing is mainly an ST-thing, and of them it's mainly for the ESTPs and ISTjs (Socionics) though the ESTJs and ISTPs could be considered to having the same amount of ability as the NTs. The additional problem with poker is that the iNtuitive dominants get bored as it's rather lacking in iNtuition, it fitting best to STs.

Interesting post. I take exception with several things in it, however.

Firstly, the link to TwoPlusTwo will show clearly that rationals (xNTx) comprise the vast majority of poker players. It can be argued that maybe xSTx types would not go on forums, but I think that's unlikely. My roomie is ISTJ and is a forum hound all day long.

Dwan has always seemed an INTJ to me, not ISTJ. Again, my roomie is ISTJ and doesn't seem very similar at all. I can't get the guy to even play poker, he has no interest whatsoever. In fact, he shows no desire to gamble at all. He will play some blackjack in Vegas, but I can't drag him to the local casinos ever. I'm not sure I agree with xSTx having gambling problems.

I'm also surprised with Ivey being E. He is very keen to keep to himself. Same with Ferguson.

Where have you gotten this information from?

The one thing I will agree on for sure is Phil Laak being ENTP. That one fits like a glove.

Lastly, intuition is the largest part of my live game, so I think saying there is a lack of intuition in poker is nonsensical.

 

[ummidk]

These high caliber players are basically human calculators. They might look like half wits and be taking swigs of drinks the whole night, but in the interviews and even the commentary after a hand is through, you get a feel for how much they are thinking the whole time. Phil Hellmuth is a lot of fun to watch because he sincerely believes he is the most adept player at the table - which may/may not be true - and he constantly puts himself in the shoes of the other player while making odds in his head. His criticism is hilarious too. That said, he would probably be very annoying to play with because he agonizes over every single hand and talks so much shit.

Lol I love listening to him go "WTF why would you raise with Queen, 10, I'm far and away the best player here"

 

[Puffy]

Personally, I reckon Ni and Fe make great poker functions. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these guys were NFJs rather than NTPs.

There is calculation involved, sure, but a lot of poker involves what is not there rather than what is. Intuition is what excels in this environment as Ti only deconstructs what information is available, where as Intuition can create it's own information - the "hunch", if you would like to put it that way, is all intuition, not thinking.

At the same time the game involves high degrees of social awareness, you have to be able to read the body language of those around you as well as to be able to method-act and feign your own reactions. That is Ni-Fe written all over it.

I'm sorry, but I do think the chances are that more of these players are INFJs than INTPs, Tom Dwan seems the most likely to be an INTP, imo, but then even he might not be. Don't forget that INFJs have Ti as well, as a tertiary, and can develop it well if it is required.

 

[Puffy]

That said, I'm not saying all these players *are* INFJs, just that I would expect INFJs to excel at the game.

 

[cheese]

Hahaha, Hellmuth is such a dick. I knew quite a few guys like him back when I used to play (terribly), but I figured that was just because of the setting (pub) and because they were all drunken idiots with too much money/too many kids at home. It's funny to see them all replicated in the big games. There was one guy who used to play totally smashed/high on something most nights, and he'd win pretty consistently. I'm fairly sure he had Ni somewhere in him, though probably tertiary/inferior - STPs really were pretty common in my experience, or at least acting like them was popular. I agree that INFJs would probably be good at this game ... just like anything else, it seems; anytime we bring up something cool some douchey poster (not you, Puffy, you're great, it's usually me) pops along and says something about INFJs. I'm going to make a thread about this.

 

[A22]

It surprieses me that there are more INTx than ISTx poker pros. I always though intuition as a quality in poker games but it can also be a big problem in decision making when it comes to high stakes. Oh, and we should have an INTP forum sit 'n go

 

[Anna Moss]

I recall one INTP acquaintance who was planning to use online poker to finance a trip. He would create a n00b account, squeeze all the money of them until his ratings went up, then build a new n00b account and go at it again. It also helped that he was a mathematician and a genius.

 

[NinjaSurfer]

This was literally the first video that came up for Phil and I laughed the whole time; he is such a prima donna. Someone at the end said he was doing this crap for camera time, and that is absolutely right. He was folding from the beginning.
YouTube - Phil Hellmuth blow up video

to be fair, and although I agree with the popular sentiments regarding Phil Hullmuth's prima donna-ism, I do see the strategic value in his behavior;

one has to assume that during this whole spiel, he is "reading" Annie Duke for clues as to what she might hold; for example, if Phil is holding two overcards (if Annie Duke has 99, 88, or any pair below 10's), then it would be a good call for the rest of Helumuth's chips;

in fact, although Phil is a prima donna, you still must assume he uses this as a dual ploy (one for attention) to gain extra time and to get an extra read off of Annie Duke. Sure, maybe he was folding the whole time; or, he maybe was considering calling if the odds were 50/50-- if say, she had an underpair, 33, 44, 55 or something;

I am a big fan of Phil Helmuth still, because he is old school and he plays to his advantage (being an asshole can be an advantage).

I also like Daniel Negranu's asshole style of play; maybe their analytical skills aren't the best, but they use emotional manipulation ploys to their advantage; they can take the fact that everyone thinks they're an arse and use this to gain a slight edge;

I don't doubt that throughout this video, Phil was watching Duke for signs of happiness or distress. A low pair would make for an easy call.

I have seen Phil make some amazing lay downs as well as stupid calls, so we shouldn't be so quick to underestimate his ability.