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Hi

weaverl2

Redshirt
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Hello, everyone!

I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Lindsay, and I am a 30 yr old INTP who found MBTI just this year through Facebook. I am very happy to have found this forum as I feel so good to find out that there are people who share many of my personality characteristics. I look forward to having good conversations with you all; I've been lurking for a while and everything looks very interesting!

Lindsay

P.S. Anyone know a good place to get an avatar? Thanks!
 

Jaico

(mono no aware)
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265
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Location
Lost in my thoughts
Hey, and welcome to the forums! I hope you'll like it here :).

As for avatars - just google image search something that you think represents you/you like...or you could draw one yourself (if you're good at drawing) or use one your friend made for you (as was the case for me :p).
 

Deleted member 1424

Guest
Hello Lindsay, you seem kinda nice...........

Get out while you still can :phear:

Anyway for avatars I'd recommend deviantart or google image search.
 

Claverhouse

Royalist Freicorps Feldgendarme
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Hi yourself.

You may like to place image tags around the png in your sig, thus: [ img ] [ /img ] ( closing the gaps in the ellipses ).

Can't think of any avatar site... but any picture will do if you can shrink it to the size you wish. Manga's always a safe choice, if the canvas isn't too busy.


Claverhouse :phear:
 

GarmGarf

Active Member
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223
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Location
Ireland (Dublin)
There are INTP Christians? (Just kidding; just kidding.)

Anyways, welcome to the forums.
 

weaverl2

Redshirt
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Hi, thanks, yes, I am Catholic though I'm really here more to discuss personality than religion. I don't mind talking religion if people can be civil, but, well, haven't had much experience with that. :angel: I'm also pretty social, I like people but I really really need my alone time to recharge.

Does that make me weird on an INTP forum? :confused:

Peace to all,

Lindsay
 
Local time
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Messages
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Hi, thanks, yes, I am Catholic though I'm really here more to discuss personality than religion. I don't mind talking religion if people can be civil, but, well, haven't had much experience with that. :angel: I'm also pretty social, I like people but I really really need my alone time to recharge.

Does that make me weird on an INTP forum? :confused:

Peace to all,

Lindsay
If you can be civil and logical, we'd love to talk religion with you.

We all often wonder why we're a forum based on people who dislike people...
 

Venture

Banned
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Location
San Diego, CA, USA
If you can be civil and logical, we'd love to talk religion with you.

We all often wonder why we're a forum based on people who dislike people...

Ooh yes.... generalization....

I am here becasue I dislike most people becasue they do not think like me, and this forum has people that think similar to me.
 

fullerene

Prolific Member
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*shudders* @ venture

heya, and welcome. You'd be surprised how civilized the arguments here are.... that's onea the reasons I really like this place. I'm not sure we have any Catholics, either *rubs hands menacingly*... there's a mix of various protestants, mormons, and I think a muslim or two, too, though. Couple unitarian universalists, bunches of atheists, ---> one very fun science, faith, and philosophy forum.


If you're here to talk personality, though, people socialize very different amounts here. Some people live in caves and don't come out at all, and others (usually the older ones... 'older' being >20 or so) go out a fair amount and have gotten used to people a bit more.

Welcome :). Enjoy yourself, and the somewhat like-minded people (until you get sick of them, that is).
 

RubberDucky451

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Lindsay with an a? You're quite interesting then :D

Welcome you!
 

Inappropriate Behavior

is peeing on the carpet
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Behind you, kicking you in the ass
Damn, where are my manners. I should have said welcome a long time ago. Don't worry, most of us here are right decent folk. I just can't think who at the moment :D
 

Venture

Banned
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fullerene

Prolific Member
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not at all. I'm just saying that the idea of disliking people who think differently made me *shudder*.

Although, if it made other people shudder too, then you might be different than everyone else on this forum. I dunno about them, though.
 

snowqueen

mysteriously benevolent
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Welcome :). Enjoy yourself, and the somewhat like-minded people (until you get sick of them, that is).

.. until you get sick of US , I think you meant ;)

Welcome weaver, I've enjoyed your contributions so far and look forward to reading more.

I love humanity but I don't pretend I like everyone.
 

Decaf

Professional Amateur
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Portland, OR, USA
I love humanity but I don't pretend I like everyone.

Agreed. Humanity as a concept is wonderfully complex and filled with mystery and loose ends. Humanity as personified... well... humanity as a concept is great :D

Its not even that I dislike people face to face. I dislike having to relate to people on their terms to the exclusion of my own. Our desire for penetrating discourse is sufficiently rare that it is seen as an eccentricity rather than a legitimate means of "normal" conversation. Given the chance to use our method in public we're difficult to shut up simply because we're starved for an outlet. Rather than become a burden on others we become voluntary outcasts, choosing not to abandon our passions in favor of public approval.

Oh, welcome aboard :D
 

Venture

Banned
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I love humanity but I don't pretend I like everyone.

I hate humanity, and I don't pretend to like people.

Agreed. Humanity as a concept is wonderfully complex and filled with mystery and loose ends. Humanity as personified... well... humanity as a concept is great :D

Its not even that I dislike people face to face. I dislike having to relate to people on their terms to the exclusion of my own. Our desire for penetrating discourse is sufficiently rare that it is seen as an eccentricity rather than a legitimate means of "normal" conversation. Given the chance to use our method in public we're difficult to shut up simply because we're starved for an outlet. Rather than become a burden on others we become voluntary outcasts, choosing not to abandon our passions in favor of public approval.

Oh, welcome aboard :D

But I guess you said it.... almost.... not really exactly what I think though
 

Decaf

Professional Amateur
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But I guess you said it.... almost.... not really exactly what I think though

Oh well, then just pretend I wrote that all in the first person :D
 

Claverhouse

Royalist Freicorps Feldgendarme
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'Humanity' is a non-existent abstract used by the irreligious to pretend there is a point to life; and by the religious and irreligious alike to justify their own actions.



If I institute a dog-eat-dog gilded age market economy it is to make all men free and lead to the uplift of all humanity.

If I take away everyone's property and share it out equally, then make everyone live in little equal dog-kennels it is for the good of humanity.

If I drop bombs on those whose ideologies are disagreeable to me, I do it for humanity's benefit.

If I enforce the taking away of land, wealth and jobs from one particular 'privileged' group and give it to an incoming poorer group, it's because humanity demands the sacrifice from the former group.


Humanity is the poor man's low-grade version of God.



Claverhouse :phear:


PS: No-one speaks of Caninity or Felinity...
 

Venture

Banned
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Location
San Diego, CA, USA
'Humanity' is a non-existent abstract used by the irreligious to pretend there is a point to life; and by the religious and irreligious alike to justify their own actions.



If I institute a dog-eat-dog gilded age market economy it is to make all men free and lead to the uplift of all humanity.

If I take away everyone's property and share it out equally, then make everyone live in little equal dog-kennels it is for the good of humanity.

If I drop bombs on those whose ideologies are disagreeable to me, I do it for humanity's benefit.

If I enforce the taking away of land, wealth and jobs from one particular 'privileged' group and give it to an incoming poorer group, it's because humanity demands the sacrifice from the former group.


Humanity is the poor man's low-grade version of God.



Claverhouse :phear:


PS: No-one speaks of Caninity or Felinity...

I don't like your smart ass attitude. :beatyou:
 

snowqueen

mysteriously benevolent
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Location
mostly in the vast space inside
'Humanity' is a non-existent abstract used by the irreligious to pretend there is a point to life; and by the religious and irreligious alike to justify their own actions.



If I institute a dog-eat-dog gilded age market economy it is to make all men free and lead to the uplift of all humanity.

If I take away everyone's property and share it out equally, then make everyone live in little equal dog-kennels it is for the good of humanity.

If I drop bombs on those whose ideologies are disagreeable to me, I do it for humanity's benefit.

If I enforce the taking away of land, wealth and jobs from one particular 'privileged' group and give it to an incoming poorer group, it's because humanity demands the sacrifice from the former group.


Humanity is the poor man's low-grade version of God.



Claverhouse :phear:


PS: No-one speaks of Caninity or Felinity...

Hmm, that is an interesting perspective if a little cynical, but that's not necessarily a criticism. I don't know when the word was first coined and in what context and as decaf says, it is quite complex in its usage. It's also used to denote something akin to compassion when used as 'humanitarian' or 'showing humanity'. I think you're right that there are probably religious roots - Man created in the image of God - only humans have souls etc. therefore the notion that if you show 'humanity' you are behaving in a merciful, kind (divine qualities) way.

I think I would agree with your statement if it said 'a non-existent abstract appropriated by ...' because it is not only used by the groups you cite and in the ways you suggest.

Nice bit of critical thinking though!
 

Decaf

Professional Amateur
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'Humanity' is a non-existent abstract used by the irreligious to pretend there is a point to life; and by the religious and irreligious alike to justify their own actions.

I disagree. We don't talk about caninity or felinity because to the best of our knowledge those animals do not form any kind of global community. They interact with each other, but they do not form a political landscape beyond their own territorial borders. If a pack of wolves were even aware of another pack of wolves two territories over, it would be news to the zoological community.

The concept of humanity comes from our awareness of the workings of other humans that we have never and will never meet. This awareness is, to the best of my knowledge, unique in homo sapiens. If we determined that another animal also had this capacity, we might have to invent an abstract term to refer to such a cultural reality.

None of that really addresses your perspective of "the common good" being used to oppress or control, but I believe efforts on its behalf are entirely selfish, and thus fall within our instinctual survival motives. With our awareness of this distant "similar otherness" we define our environment with our predictions about what impact these unknowns will have on us. If we can oppress them, we need not worry about anything detrimental coming from that source (though as we know, no oppression is quite sufficient to remove that risk). If we can control them, we will know about the danger beforehand and influence those "others" into redirecting it away from us. Whatever means by which you try to accomplish this (even means that have mutual benefit as their intent) it comes down to survival instinct.

I would say that the weak point of my argument would be the regular historical occurrence of self-sacrifice (easily explained for parents, but difficult for non-parents).
 

Claverhouse

Royalist Freicorps Feldgendarme
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Between the Harz and Carpathians
I disagree. We don't talk about caninity or felinity because to the best of our knowledge those animals do not form any kind of global community. They interact with each other, but they do not form a political landscape beyond their own territorial borders. If a pack of wolves were even aware of another pack of wolves two territories over, it would be news to the zoological community.

The concept of humanity comes from our awareness of the workings of other humans that we have never and will never meet. This awareness is, to the best of my knowledge, unique in homo sapiens. If we determined that another animal also had this capacity, we might have to invent an abstract term to refer to such a cultural reality.


I am not imitating that, uh, portentious fake Byronic nihilism rather popular here --- See ! I care for nothing ! I am heedless and careless of all life... My only God is Myself ! Tremble before my computer keys ! --- when I point out that this awareness is fake, brought to you by the same people who work at Hallmark. The knowledge that others exist has been around a long time: the Romans visited China --- yet nearly anyone Chinese up to the 18th century had very little awareness that people outside China's orbit existed, and cared less ( which did them no harm ) --- that doesn't mean the Greeks and Romans felt any kinship with others solely because those others happened to have similar physical forms. In fact it was common for ancients, and even mediaevals, to be immensely distrustful of anyone not from the same city as themselves. Peasants everywhere were even more suspicious.

The natural priorities in most ages are God, King, loved ones, self, extended family, tribe; then outsiders, to whom one has a duty of immediate preservation ( ie: if they are drowning in front of one, although that need not demand the sacrifice of self ), but to whom no aid is necessary save if one feels like it. 'God' may include a organized church as a body to which one adheres or sundry religious practices; or may just mean a sense of doing things in harmony with the cosmos. Whilst for 'outsiders' the nearer they are in race, the greater was any duty to succour them --- mostly because they have nearer genes to oneself and people want their own genes to survive for darwinian reasons. A Chinese from Qingdao will naturally prefer the chances of someone even from Shanghai over those of a westerner or a Japanese whose ultimate relationship is too remote to matter.


However, even in the modern age, with all the appliances of travel, film and recording devices possible, no-one can meet more than a minute fraction of 'humanity' personally; and even of those they do, are unlikely to become slightly friendly with more than a fragment of that fraction. To piously pretend that their lives and deaths matter to oneself is pure delusion. ( I'm being awfully polite here. ) If you live in Europe or America and the whole of India was wiped out by accident or Act of China, it might put you off your breakfast for a moment --- although many of us are less impressionable --- but it would be absurd for you to mourn for days or consider the matter at all unless you had relatives or business there. This is not hard-heartedness, merely something everyone privately knows. Exactly the same would apply if Europe or America was wiped out; the Chinese or Indians would feel a certain modulated grief, but life would go on as normal.

We may share our basic humanity with untold millions and millions --- and ultimately billions and billions; but at our level, unless they have something at least of shared culture, they are merely of descrete civilisations who may have points of interest from their arts and customs, but are as disposable to us as we are to them.

I would find it difficult to worry too much if half my own country's over-populace crossed the great divide --- and I understand also that they would feel the same way about myself: not because they dislike me or know me, but because one can't get worked up over every little thing.


None of that really addresses your perspective of "the common good" being used to oppress or control, but I believe efforts on its behalf are entirely selfish, and thus fall within our instinctual survival motives. With our awareness of this distant "similar otherness" we define our environment with our predictions about what impact these unknowns will have on us. If we can oppress them, we need not worry about anything detrimental coming from that source (though as we know, no oppression is quite sufficient to remove that risk). If we can control them, we will know about the danger beforehand and influence those "others" into redirecting it away from us. Whatever means by which you try to accomplish this (even means that have mutual benefit as their intent) it comes down to survival instinct.


Actually... you really shouldn't underestimate people's sincerity: those who call God or 'Humanity' into their quarrels are rarely openly hypocritical. They usually truly believe in whatever they are doing and saying.

It also serves the prime function of any belief or action: it makes them feel good about themselves...



Claverhouse :phear:
 

Decaf

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this awareness is fake, brought to you by the same people who work at Hallmark.

I made no assertion that this awareness was anything but a direct result of acquired knowledge. I don't believe in a collective unconscious or innate brotherhood of mankind. I am aware that people live in Africa because it has been proven to me sufficiently for what I require to believe it. As it happens this awareness comes from mechanisms such as language, writing, photography and supposedly credible journalism.

The line I was drawing was the concept of "other" that allows us to wonder what another person is thinking. Theoretical empathy is as far as we can tell beyond other animals. I draw no conclusions from the hollowness of our thoughts about these others such as kinship or suspicion. As far as I can tell that is beyond the scope of the argument.

We may share our basic humanity with untold millions and millions --- and ultimately billions and billions; but at our level, unless they have something at least of shared culture, they are merely of descrete civilisations who may have points of interest from their arts and customs, but are as disposable to us as we are to them.

This statement clarifies things for me a lot. We're apparently talking about two very different definitions of the term humanity. I'm referring to a concept without specific emotional attachment and you aren't. I suppose I dismissed the definition from "Oh the humanity!" a long time ago and it didn't cross my mind that you would refer to it.

Actually... you really shouldn't underestimate people's sincerity: those who call God or 'Humanity' into their quarrels are rarely openly hypocritical. They usually truly believe in whatever they are doing and saying.

I don't doubt people's sincerity. I simply believe that it is inevitable for a belief system with the foundational message of "turning the other cheek" will eventually evolve into a belief that justifies going to war as long they can rationalize how they "didn't start it". Turning the other cheek only functions as a part of your active doctrine if you believe that doing so will help convince the other person to believe as you do. We are simply not built for the kind of selflessness that would allow us to accept injury willingly for no perceived benefit and with the full ability to stop it from happening. Even masochists have safe words.

It also serves the prime function of any belief or action: it makes them feel good about themselves...

Are we agreeing that selfishness defines human behavior towards other humans?


-edit- lol, I suppose its all because neither of us read each other's posts very carefully. On a second reading I see what you actually said rather than what I read into it :p

For the rest of your first post I believe that "humanity" as a non-emotive concept can be used in many of those instances, but only with more supporting rationale (even if the conclusion is still atrocious to my own sensibilities). Eugenics for example.
 
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