Help me with some research into learning

[eudemonia]

I'm interested in how conversations lead to learning and am about to address a business breakfast on the subject of contagious conversations -how to change organisations by changing conversations. This is a relatively new topic in organisational development and there is not much research around on it.

It has struck me how forums like these are great ways of facilitating learning. Unlike traditional 'courses' there are no set objectives and the conversations wander where they will. There are conversations covering just about anything encouraging learning in all sorts of arenas - cognitive, emotional, creative, relational and behavioural. I was thinking of doing some on-line, quick and dirty research for the topic. If you're willing to participate would you be happy to share what you have learned by being on this forum?

You might like to say:
why you decided to participate
what you have learned as a result of it - maybe in terms of knowledge, changes in emotional orientation, changes in behaviour, changes in relationships etc.

I think forums could be great methods for facilitating chaos based learning in organisations - getting around the hierarchies that tend, either consciously or unconsciously, to control what conversations take place. I would usually say that the results would be used without any reference to names but I don't think that's necessary here!

 

[Jules]

I think the main reason why forums like this one get around hierarchies is anonymosity. On a forum in a corporate environment where my identity is known to my peers and/or to moderators/operators I would be extremely careful in choosing what I say and how I say it.
Or perhaps I misunderstand you and your research isn't aimed at forums in a corporate environment.

 

[loveofreason]

Ships without a wake. No physical consequences, Just minds reaching minds.

It's a playground. Would it really work if you tethered it to the real world?


I came here to escape. I guess to me my physical life is like a cage, but here I can be 'free'. Isn't that addictive?

Since coming here, well. What I have learned I think is that I am still a child and the peculiarity of being such (human) still fascinates me. Where else can people share the truth about their worlds?

But I think Jules is right. Without anonymity it wouldn't work.

 

[eudemonia]

No it is. I was wondering about this Jules. Is it possible that you could get this anarchistic flavour in a corporate environment? So many corporates are looking to break out of their old ways of thinking but you're suggesting that they would never allow their people to post freely (and responsibly) at work. I think that your comment is very telling....and sad. Is there something about your intranet that discourages openness? or is it just your corporate culture in general?

 

[Jules]

What makes me decide what to say in which place? It depends on how risky it would be.
If what I say could get me into 'trouble'* and the chances of my identity being tied to whatever I've said then I'd probably choose not to say it. Or perhaps say it more nuanced.
Perhaps the anonymous online identity people have allows people to express themselves more true to their hearts (if this is what you seek), be it in a good manner or in a bad manner.
Do mind that I don't think that absolutely everybody would 'use' this 'identity shield', or would mind if their identity is known. What I write is purely my opinion.


*.- the kind of trouble not worth going through

This is also why I don't feel comfortable when a question like this one arises. But I shouldn't go off topic here.

 

[eudemonia]

Ships without a wake. No physical consequences, Just minds reaching minds.

It's a playground. Would it really work if you tethered it to the real world?


I came here to escape. I guess to me my physical life is like a cage, but here I can be 'free'. Isn't that addictive?

Since coming here, well. What I have learned I think is that I am still a child and the peculiarity of being such (human) still fascinates me. Where else can people share the truth about their worlds?

But I think Jules is right. Without anonymity it wouldn't work.

LoR I find your posts fascinating. It leaves me wondering about you - the quirkiness, intelligence, wit and creativity of your mind. How much of this comes out in the real world? It seems so sad that we can only be our true selves on line. All that wasted potential..... I refuse to believe that we can't get these kinds of conversations in the real world.

My small company sometimes gets near this when we run leadership retreats but then everyone comes from a different company. There is anonymity because people retire to different lives where no-one knows each other. I do know of other examples where this vulnerable honesty comes out in conversations. I think its something to do with not trying - not trying to change anyone, not trying to be anyone, not trying to achieve anything, just being and sharing. Its a completely different state of mind.

 

[Jules]

I think its something to do with not trying - not trying to change anyone, not trying to be anyone, not trying to achieve anything, just being and sharing. Its a completely different state of mind.

Actually this is what I recognize in the Tao Te Ching (chapter 3).

 

[eudemonia]

What a lovely site . Actually, this is why I am taking up meditation. I think that the combination of meditation and conversation could lead to profound learning.

 

[Decaf]

In real life my interest in personality theory is taken as a quirky hobby for an engineer to have. Because I have no educational background (i.e. piece of paper) in psychology most people treat my opinions like that of a ham radio operator, not as things I actually have hopes of enacting in the world. That lack of confidence is terribly demotivating for someone who already has to put effort into applying themselves to the outside world.

Here is my refresher ground. I've found that I've been able to nurture my interest much longer in this interest cycle than I used to because people here listen seriously AND CRITIQUE. I get new ideas here and not just from my own head! People who have done less study feel free to contribute what they really feel, and because its psychology, anyone's opinion can hold vast insight.

Corporations have tried to accomplish this in the past with things like "anonymous suggestion boxes" which is usually ruined when some manager points a surveillance camera at the box to track down dissenters But the real problem is that that isn't dialog. I hate the corporate system, so I don't know how to improve it when my brain keeps saying "Burn it all to the ground and start over!!!"

 

[eudemonia]

Thanks for that Decaf. You remind me of a friend. I did my research into learning in a nuclear power company. The person who brought me into the company was a nuclear scientist with an interest in Myers Briggs. We got to know each other very well and became friends. By the end of the research she had decided to do a Masters in change and innovation. She did this (with no prior training in the subject) and eventually set herself up in consultancy in creativity. She must have experienced at least 5 years of unhappiness in her company before she made the decision and 5 years of sheer terror going out on her own - and I mean terror; she never had much confidence at all. But I saw her last week. She is going out to Hong Kong to do some creativity training. And she's still using her love of MBTI. I know its different when you have a family and kids but its not impossible if you know what you are aiming for - God does that sound corny or what

I feel the same about organizations - but if we blew them up they'd rebuild them in the same image. We have to learn to manage them/us better.

 

[loveofreason]

LoR I find your posts fascinating. It leaves me wondering about you - the quirkiness, intelligence, wit and creativity of your mind. How much of this comes out in the real world? It seems so sad that we can only be our true selves on line. All that wasted potential..... I refuse to believe that we can't get these kinds of conversations in the real world.

My small company sometimes gets near this when we run leadership retreats but then everyone comes from a different company. There is anonymity because people retire to different lives where no-one knows each other. I do know of other examples where this vulnerable honesty comes out in conversations. I think its something to do with not trying - not trying to change anyone, not trying to be anyone, not trying to achieve anything, just being and sharing. Its a completely different state of mind.

I'm not good at understanding my own appearance (including how I appear in text). I tend to assume I have a rather, um. brick-like demeanor. Perhaps clod-like in the Tao te Ching sense.

Whatever arises here does so because I can amuse my own mind, but in the real world that rarely happens. I'm like a TV on stand-by in the real world, waiting to play the programs that please the people around me.

(Which is why I like being alone so much - I get sick of other people's programming.)

If everyone was like me your idea wouldn't work. But perhaps there are a significant number of people not so handicapped. Maybe the majority?

I'm with Decaf in my attitude to corporations... if there's the possibility of changing the way they work would they still be corporations? Perhaps you're really trying to invent a fundamentally new structure, but tweaking at the details is the easiest way to start.

 

[grey matters]

This may not sound like it is on topic but it is I just don't think I can communicate this concept very well in just a few sentences. In the book "the 8th Habit" Stephen Covey talks about Knowledge workers. In the Industiral revolution people were things. The goal was to get these "things" to be more productive. the idea about Knowledge workers is to recognize and bring out (develop) potential. By potential I don't mean mindless production I mean just the opposite I mean creativity, initiave strengths, skills and the like. Corporations who use the old industrial revolution paradigm discourage creativity, initiative. Competition is encouraged this leads to a lack of trust and not much sharing of ideas. the freedom to think and express are often squelched. On the internet we have the freedom to think, be very creative and express. we have a voice here. I encourage you to read this book. Covey has some revolutionary ides.

 

[Kidege]

I think this place works not only because of anonimity but because we have pretty strong personalities... and because we also know how not to act in a forum.

By now we know we're different and we're ready to feel good about it. Here, we simply want to express ourselves and learn, yes, but whatever we please and at our pace. I don't think it'd work as a compulsory activity. I've seen enough academic internet private forums to know they become a fertile soil for self-censorship and homogeneity.

I doubt it'd work this well with non-rational people. I doubt it'd work this well with less open-minded people. Check out INTPCentral. All rationals, supposedly, but too full of themselves to actualy listen to others.

Corporations -even modern ones who want knowledge workers- have goals of their own. Individuals are only "human capital" for them. This forum has a radically different orientation. Here we are ourselves. We play with our knowledge and monetary profit's not the goal. I think it wouldn't work in a corporation.

But you asked other questions. My biggest discovery here is finding there's other people who can and will write/read an essay to get a point across in an internet forum!
It has reinforced my decision to sharpen my thought processes and my writing skills. It's been great validation.

In terms of behaviour... well, in academic forums I usually have to lead to get a job done, and my correspondents don't have the reasoning skills everyone has over here. So here I'm part of a group. No pressure, no pain. I get to lean back, laugh and play a bit.

You rarely find a group that enables you to be more yourself. And man, it's a huge emotional boost.


PS. When you say research, you mean informal research, right? the kind we do at a whim?

 

[eudemonia]

PS. When you say research, you mean informal research, right? the kind we do at a whim?

I'm interested in adult experiential learning - what helps us to keep our minds continually open to ideas and what helps us to to push ourselves outside our comfort zones when we have a strong urge always to find comfort, security and control. The reason I'm interested in forums is that a lot of businesses are saying that they need to get their people to think radically, challenging everything they think they know. But in order to do this they will have to allow an element of chaos to enter the system and this is scary.

A guy called Gurnek Bains has written a book called Meaning Inc. His basic hypothesis is that the 70's were the era of 'what' - what should we be doing to compete with the new entrants to the market (ie. the Japanese). The 80's and 90's were about 'how' - how should we compete? This was about processes and efficiencies (competencies, process re-engineering etc). The 21st century is about why. Why should we be doing this? Why should I devote my life to promoting a brand of biscuit. The whole corporate, 24/7 lifestyle is being questioned and people in corporations are now aggressively seeking meaning.

It isn't so basic as this - I think we've always asked these questions. It's just that people are prepared to do something about it and its on the corporate agenda.

If you combine this trend with the fact that western organizations have flourised over the past 30 years by picking the low lying fruit in terms of productivity, they are now at the stage where they are going to have to do something radically different in order to maintain their edge. This is why they are seeking ways of embracing organized chaos, creativity and learning. Even this goes against the ESTJ instinct.

I understand what people say about anonymity. But if organizations could access even 50% of all of this untapped potential, we'd be flying. We just need to discover how to do it.

 

[ElectricWizard]

"human capital"

What is this 'human capital' of which you speak?

 

[eudemonia]

Sorry about double post but I just wanted to say to Grey Matters that I love Stephen Covey's work. He is speaking right into this new debate about meaning. He's saying, essentially, that a leader has to bring his spiritual self to his work. That people expect to see someone who is fully and vitally alive in his calling. Also, of course we have the spiritual disciplines that can be applied in leadership which is something Covey is very big on, alongside his emphasis on the virtues - e.g. courage, compassion, service etc.

@Electric Wizard: Human capital - that's us! We contribute our skills, talents, intellect learning and creativity so that the owners of economic capital can get their financial returns through our labour. But how can companies prevent their human capital from walking out the door and going to a competitor?

Human capital of the world unite, we have nothing to lose but our chains - it has a certain 21st century ring to it.

 

[Dissident]

I think that the way they work at google may be the way to go:

http://www.youtube.com/lifeatgoogle

 

[eudemonia]

Precisely, nice video. But most of our companies are light years away from that. How on earth are they going to make that journey? Btw, notice the role played by conversations in that video. Thanks for bringing it.