Hello world, I want to play a game

[Ninety-Fourth]

I am Ninety-Fourth and I am an INTP. There are many like me, but this name is mine. Conjure by it at your own risk.

Alright, random references over with, let's get to the juicy stuff: describing myself.
Or rather, not describing myself. Why? Because I'm not entirely sure what to talk about, and yet quite aware that I'd bore you if I just wrote everything I could in one long rant. Boring a bunch of INTPs is probably not a good idea, as can be evidenced by what happens when a thread on this forum gets derailed.

Alright, plan B: I will truthfully - to the best of my knowledge, that is - answer any questions asked in this thread. Might be a good exercise for Ne and maybe Fe, too; I'll need that if I'm to expand my social circle.
Oh, by the way, I mean any questions. Can't promise the answers will be clear, though. Gotta keep things interesting.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

as can be evidenced by what happens when a thread on this forum gets derailed.

So you're an established lurker?

Alright, plan B: I will truthfully - to the best of my knowledge, that is - answer any questions asked in this thread. Might be a good exercise for Ne and maybe Fe, too; I'll need that if I'm to expand my social circle.
Oh, by the way, I mean any questions. Can't promise the answers will be clear, though. Gotta keep things interesting.

Look down. What genitalia are between your legs?

Where do you live?

What do you think about this thread?

And would you rather fight an elephant-sized duck or 1,000 duck-sized elephants?

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

1) So you're an established lurker?

2) Look down. What genitalia are between your legs?

3) Where do you live?

4) What do you think about this thread?

5) And would you rather fight an elephant-sized duck or 1,000 duck-sized elephants?

(Post edited and questions enumerated for ease of use. Hope you don't mind.)

1) I'm not an established lurker, I migrate often.

2) Concealed by underwear. Protruding from my crotch, yet not erect right now. Slightly hairy, to my great disappointment: I still can't figure out a time-efficient way of rendering them, how should I put it, "in alignment with zeitgeist" without later having to plaster them in enough toilet paper to make a papier-mache.

3) Is cold here. Very cold. Also dark. But my people not as obsessed with potato as western neighbors, and less rape here. Still bad to live, though.

4) The thread you linked to is entertaining, though I am disappointed so few people voted for violating truly inappropriate taboos. Maybe it's just my weak Fi talking, but I don't see how someone could hold off on trying some long pork.

5) 1000 duck-sized elephants if the duck in question is male, an elephant-sized duck if it is female. Drake penises look Lovecraftian as it is; I don't want to see an elephant-sized one.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Do you think of your cognition and awarness as tools or effects?
Specific to the abofe, is Fe, Fi, Te, Ne, a tool for you or something else?

Is 0 the largest or only the centermost value for you?

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

1) Do you think of your cognition and awarness as tools or effects?

2) Specific to the abofe, is Fe, Fi, Te, Ne, a tool for you or something else?

3) Is 0 the largest or the only the centermost value for you?

Interesting questions.

1) I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but that's beside the point.
My cognition is an effect of the processes going in my brain and a tool I use to examine the world, my awareness is what happens when I apply cognition to myself.

2) Fe is a wonderful yet puzzling aspect of my life, Fi is an annoying enigma, Te is a tool I often neglect or fail to use, Ne is an integral part of my thinking. (I assume you're using MBTI names for functions, not Socionics ones.)

3) Centermost. I think of detraction as an addition of a negative number, so they play a pretty important role in my thinking.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

1) I'm not an established lurker, I migrate often.

Where else do you migrate to/from? And how long have you been lurking?

2) Concealed by underwear. Protruding from my crotch, yet not erect right now. Slightly hairy, to my great disappointment: I still can't figure out a time-efficient way of rendering them, how should I put it, "in alignment with zeitgeist" without later having to plaster them in enough toilet paper to make a papier-mache.

Spoiler

3) Is cold here. Very cold. Also dark. But my people not as obsessed with potato as western neighbors, and less rape here. Still bad to live, though.

Midnight-sun-level north or sub-boreal-the-trees-aren't-all-conifers-but-it's-still-cold-as-fuck north? And how far east in relation to... something that's more descriptive than "west"?

4) The thread you linked to is entertaining, though I am disappointed so few people voted for violating truly inappropriate taboos. Maybe it's just my weak Fi talking, but I don't see how someone could hold off on trying some long pork.

A cannibalism reference I've never heard of and initially read as sexual innuendo. +1 It led me to find this via Google. +9000.

5) 1000 duck-sized elephants if the duck in question is male, an elephant-sized duck if it is female. Drake penises look Lovecraftian as it is; I don't want to see an elephant-sized one.

Imagine if it were an elephant sized squirrel instead.

Spoiler

So I see you mentioned Lovecraft... Do you partake in any... eccentric ritualistic practices?

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Imagine if it were an elephant sized squirrel instead.

Still not as bad as a duck.

Spoiler

The horror!

Also, things with gigantic balls are less mobile and easier to fight than things with gnarled, sometimes spiky, extending penises half as long as their bodies. Penises that detach upon use, leaving the duck in question fully mobile. Have I mentioned that those penises have evolved for one purpose only, and that is rape?
Seriously, ducks are gross. And evil. And their bites can inflict a slow, agonizing death upon the victim - unless they're elephant-sized and the victim is human-sized, in which case it'll be a fast, agonizing death.

So I see you mentioned Lovecraft... Do you partake in any... eccentric ritualistic practices?

Used to, but not in cults. Dabbled in Chaos Magic for a while, performed some experiments with it, noticed that even if magic does exist and does alter the probabilities, it:
a) would have had to work on the level of influencing behavior of living things, not 'real' probability alteration, which limits its usability greatly;
b) would produce effects no more impressive than, say, using social engineering to achieve the same thing;
c) would have an unclear structure with an unknown amount of variables that would be a mess to research properly.

So I dropped it, figured it wasn't worth the effort. Got a lot of useful knowledge out of the experience, though. Like how prayer works on a psychological level(and thus, how to adopt that useful coping mechanism despite my misotheistic worldview) and how to suspend your disbelief when faced with under-researched complex systems.

Where else do you migrate to/from? And how long have you been lurking?

Let's see... as I have mentioned before, I used to frequent occultist forums for a while, but all the conspiracy theorists and ignorant quantum-woo believers started to get on my nerves, so I don't lurk there all that often these days.

After that, I fell sick with a severe case of Dwarf Fortress and got my heart permanently trapped within the cozy confines of Bay 12 Forums.
I don't visit the upper forums - the ones where the game itself is discussed - all too regularly, but it's still a very refreshing place to lurk: it's positively crawling with untyped INTPs, and their abandonment of all ethical considerations makes my nipples explode with delight.
I mean, those guys used to butcher mermaids for profit. And they did it with style.

And, of course, I'm migrating onto and from various MBTI and Socionics forums. The scenery is not as refreshing and people are not as psychopathic as on Bay 12, but they still offer a lot of mental stimulation.

Midnight-sun-level north or sub-boreal-the-trees-aren't-all-conifers-but-it's-still-cold-as-fuck north? And how far east in relation to... something that's more descriptive than "west"?

Sub-boreal. It is still cold as fuck for nine months a year. And during the dreadful years when it isn't cold as fuck nine months a year, you'll wish it were: it's either a leg-breakingly slippery, ridiculously wet, muddy winter with the rain nearly as cold as ice, or forest-fire-inducing, people-killing scorching dry summer.
In the middle, more or less. Western Russia.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Used to, but not in cults. Dabbled in Chaos Magic for a while, performed some experiments with it, noticed that even if magic does exist and does alter the probabilities, it:
a) would have had to work on the level of influencing behavior of living things, not 'real' probability alteration, which limits its usability greatly;
b) would produce effects no more impressive than, say, using social engineering to achieve the same thing;
c) would have an unclear structure with an unknown amount of variables that would be a mess to research properly.

Mathematicians call the above chaos theory, and they claim its scientific.

So I dropped it, figured it wasn't worth the effort. Got a lot of useful knowledge out of the experience, though. Like how prayer works on a psychological level(and thus, how to adopt that useful coping mechanism despite my misotheistic worldview) and how to suspend your disbelief when faced with under-researched complex systems.

Basis for scientific methods ^^^.

After that, I fell sick with a severe case of Dwarf Fortress and got my heart permanently trapped within the cozy confines of Bay 12 Forums.
I don't visit the upper forums - the ones where the game itself is discussed - all too regularly, but it's still a very refreshing place to lurk: it's positively crawling with untyped INTPs, and their abandonment of all ethical considerations makes my nipples explode with delight.
I mean, those guys used to butcher mermaids for profit. And they did it with style.

So someone actually plays this game, besides me? Yes i think this game is designed by INTP and works like INTP mind.

Have you got some fun situations from the game? Or you just lurk forums?

Sub-boreal. It is still cold as fuck for nine months a year. And during the dreadful years when it isn't cold as fuck nine months a year, you'll wish it were: it's either a leg-breakingly slippery, ridiculously wet, muddy winter with the rain nearly as cold as ice, or forest-fire-inducing, people-killing scorching dry summer.
In the middle, more or less. Western Russia.

So you prefer warm places? How is the polar day if you even experience this?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Still not as bad as a duck.

Spoiler

The horror!

Also, things with gigantic balls are less mobile and easier to fight than things with gnarled, sometimes spiky, extending penises half as long as their bodies. Penises that detach upon use, leaving the duck in question fully mobile. Have I mentioned that those penises have evolved for one purpose only, and that is rape?
Seriously, ducks are gross. And evil. And their bites can inflict a slow, agonizing death upon the victim - unless they're elephant-sized and the victim is human-sized, in which case it'll be a fast, agonizing death.

Indeed. Clockwise vs counterclockwise. Evolution at its finest. But geese are worse.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TLkTTMpLU
Or better. Depends, I guess...

And don't let the balls lull you into a false sense of security. Squirrels can pull them into their body cavity on command. Imagine raking your nuts on tree bark all day. Tangent: You age a male squirrel by measuring its testicles and examining its scrotum. Testes swell during the breeding seasons and grow in length approximately .5cm annually, to a maximum length in the range of 5cm. The scrotum starts flesh colored, but progressively becomes darker with age, developing patchy black spots that increase in size with time, eventually leaving the whole thing coal black. The scrotum also starts out completely hairy, and becomes increasingly more bald with age. Females are aged by the presence of nipple hair and nipple pigmentation.

Used to, but not in cults. Dabbled in Chaos Magic for a while, performed some experiments with it, noticed that even if magic does exist and does alter the probabilities, it:
a) would have had to work on the level of influencing behavior of living things, not 'real' probability alteration, which limits its usability greatly;
b) would produce effects no more impressive than, say, using social engineering to achieve the same thing;
c) would have an unclear structure with an unknown amount of variables that would be a mess to research properly.

So I dropped it, figured it wasn't worth the effort. Got a lot of useful knowledge out of the experience, though. Like how prayer works on a psychological level(and thus, how to adopt that useful coping mechanism despite my misotheistic worldview) and how to suspend your disbelief when faced with under-researched complex systems.

A: Perceptual Control Theory.
B & C: Butterfly Effect (<-example, not solution). It's in the how.

Ultimately I think it's correct but we're not prepared to handle it yet. Chaotes are... interesting.

Let's see... as I have mentioned before, I used to frequent occultist forums for a while, but all the conspiracy theorists and ignorant quantum-woo believers started to get on my nerves, so I don't lurk there all that often these days.

And, of course, I'm migrating onto and from various MBTI and Socionics forums. The scenery is not as refreshing and people are not as psychopathic as on Bay 12, but they still offer a lot of mental stimulation.

So... why are you here? What are you looking for? How may I help you?

Sub-boreal. It is still cold as fuck for nine months a year. And during the dreadful years when it isn't cold as fuck nine months a year, you'll wish it were: it's either a leg-breakingly slippery, ridiculously wet, muddy winter with the rain nearly as cold as ice, or forest-fire-inducing, people-killing scorching dry summer.
In the middle, more or less. Western Russia.

Вася?

 

[The Introvert]

So I see you mentioned Lovecraft... Do you partake in any... eccentric ritualistic practices?

When I saw this I spit up my drink from laughter.

 

[Cavallier]

Вася?

Don't do it Ninety-Fourth. Or do it. Your choice really but don't say I didn't warn you.

My question for you is: What is your current obsession assuming you have one? Often making an account on INTPf means an old obsession has lost its appeal.

These will help on your travels. They are kind of like really bored and really hairy fairies. Provide sustenance and snuggles and they may choose to eviscerate your foes or at least disdain them thoroughly. Added bonus they keep your feet warm on long INTPf evenings.

Spoiler

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Don't do it. Or do it. Your choice really but don't say I didn't warn you.

What is your current obsession assuming you have one? Often making an account on INTPf means an old obsession has lost its appeal.

Whoa uh... what? Is the question directed at me or OP? what am I being warned about?

<-Has one and only one account.

Вася translates roughly to Vas, the first name of the only Russian chaote I know of.

 

[Cavallier]

^I fixed it.

Warning and question are for 94th. Both are of course meant to be in jest and general curiosity.

*ponders HAB*

Guilty conscience? What do you have planned for our new friend? Hmmmm....?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

^I fixed it.

Warning and question are for 94th. Both are of course meant to be in jest and general curiosity.

*ponders HAB*

Guilty conscience? What do you have planned for our new friend? Hmmmm....?

You have no idea the wave of paranoia you sent through me back there.

I haven't decapitated anyone in weeks, Cav. We're all safe. For now.

Spoiler

 

[Cavallier]

HA! That was fantastic.

Me=

HAB=

Thanks Hab. I'm sorry I freaked you out but only a little because I haven't seen you do one of those before.

 

[BigApplePi]

Have you had any bad experiences? Were they bad enough to affect your current life?

Would you take a chance on love?

Do you see limits to technology?

What kind of people cause you to feel vulnerable?

What is a good quality of yours (I won't ask for the "best")?

Would you like to see a limit of one question per message?

Are you son/daughter of Ninety-Third?

What is the meaning of life?

Have you had enuf Q's?

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

1) And don't let the balls lull you into a false sense of security. Squirrels can pull them into their body cavity on command. Imaging raking your nuts on tree bark all day. Tangent: You age a male squirrel by measuring its testicles and examining its scrotum. Testes swell during the breeding seasons and grow in length approximately .5cm annually, to a maximum length in the range of 5cm. The scrotum starts flesh colored, but progressively becomes darker with age, developing patchy black spots that increase in size with time, eventually leaving the whole thing coal black. The scrotum also starts out completely hairy, and becomes increasingly more bald with age. Females are aged by the presence of nipple hair and nipple pigmentation.

2) A: Perceptual Control Theory.
B & C: Butterfly Effect (<-example, not solution). It's in the how.

Ultimately I think it's correct but we're not prepared to handle it yet. Chaotes are... interesting.

3) So... why are you here? What are you looking for? How may I help you?

4) Вася?

1) I still think ducks(and geeze, but you didn't ask me about elephant-sized geeze) are worse opponents. At least elephant-sized squirrels wouldn't have a jackhammer corkscrew penis shooting out with enough energy to smash a car.

An elephant-sized Squirrel Girl, though? Or, worse yet, a thousand duck-sized Squirrel Girls? I'd take an elephant-sized duck over that any time.

2) I haven't heard of PCT being used in that context.

3) I am here because it's pretty hard to mature further without a lot of fellow INTPs to examine and talk to.

Currently, as in right now, I am looking for information on how INTPs manage to charm the opposite sex, particularly ENFJs, especially those INTPs who do not have good looks on their side.
Oh, and procrastination. Procrastination is a pain in the ass. I'm hoping to develop some solutions with the info I gather.

As for what these forums and you in particular can give me... Well, our discussion here has displayed it well enough. Where else can one hold an intelligent discussion regarding the nuances of fighting elephant-sized ducks? With illustrations, no less.

4) Нет, не Вася. I am not the Chaote you are looking for. And I won't tell you my full name: it's no fun that way.
But it's a funny name, so I'll tell you about it: when translated into English, it means "Holy Son-of-Satan".
(The "Son-of-Satan" part is my family name. Consider the implications.)

No kidding, that's what it says. At least the bullies back in school weren't smart enough to catch on to that, or I wouldn't hear the end of it. "Unclean!", they would shout from a safe distance, "Unclean!"
And what's worse, they'd be right: I had an unfortunate tendency to ignore hygiene back in the day.

On the bright side, I'd make a smashing cult leader with that name.

What is your current obsession assuming you have one? Often making an account on INTPf means an old obsession has lost its appeal.

Short-term obsession: friendships, social life, compliments, making people like me more. Wooing a charming ENFJ girl I know. All that Fe stuff I never bothered to research before, you know?

My current long-term obsession is electronic cigarettes.
Mostly because these things are awesome and the potential market for them is enormous: they taste great and don't stink up the room, the withdrawal from properly purified nicotine is nigh-unnoticeable, they're simple yet high-tech and therefore appealing to the average consumer, and finally, they've got a great DIY potential which means that you can adjust them a lot better than you can with other tobacco products.
Alas, the bad rep from all the laughable 'research' papers by tobacco companies is kind of hurting the market, but it's fixable.

(The size of the last paragraph indicates that it's an obsession, alright.)

(Also, thanks for the 'fairies'. I have one myself. A Thai by the name of Felix.)

1) Have you had any bad experiences? Were they bad enough to affect your current life?

2) Would you take a chance on love?

3) Do you see limits to technology?

4) What kind of people cause you to feel vulnerable?

5) What is a good quality of yours (I won't ask for the "best")?

1) Nothing catastrophic, despite what my apparent obsession with reproductive organs might imply.
Childhood of relatively mild emotional abuse by narcissistic alcoholic father. A lifetime of trying to keep up with a ridiculously productive ENTP brother, whom I must say I respect greatly, even if I do not quite understand how he can work like an Energizer bunny. A childhood history of mild yet conveniently debilitating chronic pain, then about three years of the same chronic pain that I can no longer afford to let debilitate me. And a lifetime of being an INTP in the world of SJs, I guess?
In other words, nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes, those experiences have affected my life; in particular, feeling burning hatred for one of the people you live with on a day-to-day basis is, indeed, pretty life-changing.

2) Yes. For love, I'd bring down stars from the skies and gather magma from the Earth's mantle; heck, I'd even get off the couch and go to the gym.

3) I do not take it upon myself to predict exactly where the humankind's progress will hit a snag, but I am aware that certain limits exist: the laws of physics are some of them. There are logistical issues to work through, too, which imposes further limits.

4) Not sure what you mean by that. Please elaborate.
If by 'feel vulnerable' you mean 'feel seething murderous rage', then SJs, ESXJs in particular.
ESXJs remind me of my father. I hated my father.
[insert Ledger's Joker here]
But honestly, I tried to be nonjudgmental and yet hated every SJ I've met. I always seem to get into arguments with them, and arguing with them is always about winning, which means that they'd sooner turn the argument into a farce than lose. And if they do lose, they'll be angry with you for 'making them look bad'. Unpleasant people.
Though maybe I've merely met the wrong kind of SJs. I don't know.

Hypocrites also get on my nerves, as well as people who abuse their position of authority. Which includes politicians and cops, obviously. Aside from them? Narcissists, wife-beaters, abusers in general. Bullies. So-called "philosophers" who argue for the sake of argument rather than to exchange opinions. Drunk people - the belligerent kind, not the sentimental kind. In short, everyone who reminds me of my father.

5) That's a hard one. I guess my most prominent good trait is a developed Ne, which means that I can compensate for my weak Fe by joking and for my bad memory by instinctively building mental maps. I also have an intuitive understanding of languages... or so I was led to believe.

Aside from this, most people I meet tell me that I'm a smart guy, but that's not exactly saying much here on INTPf.

UPD:

1) Mathematicians call the above chaos theory, and they claim its scientific.

2) So someone actually plays this game, besides me? Yes i think this game is designed by INTP and works like INTP mind.

Have you got some fun situations from the game? Or you just lurk forums?

3) So you prefer warm places? How is the polar day if you even experience this?

Sorry, didn't notice the post in all the commotion.

1) Chaos theory is a theory that describes complex systems, nothing more. Being based on it doesn't make Chaos Magic any more or less valid: only research can determine the validity of a hypothesis.
Even if we disregard that nitpick, you might have noticed that my points are not about the theoretical possibility of a human mind applying just the right influence in just the right place to achieve a necessary effect, but about practical application of the stuff, which has less than satisfactory results as far as I can see.

Not that I'm interested in whether magic fits some abstract definition and whether it works at all. I'm more interested in whether it works well enough and is applicable enough in my life for me to expend time and effort working with a hypothesis which is likely to be false.
Magic in its current form isn't worth it for me: I don't wish to trade my current belief system for tools that don't work as intended. (Not to mention that practicing magic takes effort, and I'm lazy.)

If you have no conflicting beliefs and no issues with the possibility that magic may not exist, though, then there should be no problem with being a practicioner. I get it: magic's a seductive thing, all the more seductive in that it may work.

2) What I like about DF is that it really exercises your T and N. Even after you've comprehended the interface and mastered the controls, you've got to keep track of a really huge, really fragile house of cards. Cards with their own unique personalities, who need booze and clothing to function and occasionally end up going mad and murdering other cards.

I have some fun stories, yes - most of them about the RAW duplicates and adventure mode - but mostly my DF experience revolved around inventing new and exciting ways to kill people and improving the forts' logistics. I'm not much of a storyteller.

3) No, I don't particularly like warm places either. I prefer temperate biomes. The brooks don't dry up in the summer and you can build ice-based cave-in machineguns in the winter... er... we're still talking about DF, right?

Just kidding. No, no polar day where I live, but I know it'd be freezing anyway: the snow reflects the light, and wind gets really freaking cold as it travels over kilometers of snow. Sunbathing in polar day would still be as bad an idea as it is in polar night. It would simply be a little less counterintuitive.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Currently, as in right now, I am looking for information on how INTPs manage to charm the opposite sex, particularly ENFJs, especially those INTPs who do not have good looks on their side.

I've always found them sickeningly attention-seeking. Probably because we were competing for the same attention.

1. Authenticity.
2. Competition. Perhaps intentionally in an area where they are strong, preferably of some strong mental component.
3. Straightforwardness.
4. Put them in a position to want to improve you; an itch they can't help but scratch.

Oh, and procrastination. Procrastination is a pain in the ass. I'm hoping to develop some solutions with the info I gather.

Spoiler

On the bright side, I'd make a smashing cult leader with that name.

Spoiler

Aside from this, most people I meet tell me that I'm a smart guy, but that's not exactly saying much here on INTPf.

Masochist.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

I've always found them sickeningly attention-seeking. Probably because we were competing for the same attention.

1. Authenticity.
2. Competition. Perhaps intentionally in an area where they are strong, preferably of some strong mental component.
3. Straightforwardness.
4. Put them in a position to want to improve you; an itch they can't help but scratch.

Spoiler

1) I see. Curious. And have you had experience with ENFPs, while we're at it?

2) Unfortunately, drugs don't address the root of the problem. Plus, I have already determined that stimulants don't work on me the way they work on people with ADHD, meaning that it's not the problem here.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

1) I see. Curious. And have you had experience with ENFPs, while we're at it?

2) Unfortunately, drugs don't address the root of the problem. Plus, I have already determined that stimulants don't work on me the way they work on people with ADHD, meaning that it's not the problem here.

Yes. They're exhaustive. They drive you, but aren't as accepting of your flaws in the same way as an ENFJ, because when they take you in, they're less oriented on each facet of you and initially overlook the rough spots. They are better equipped to deal with the chaos that ensues though, but too much will break them and cause them to redefine you.

If the root of the problem is intrinsic, the only fix is time and the development of Si.

 

[Cavallier]

Yes. They're exhaustive. They drive you, but aren't as accepting of your flaws in the same way as an ENFJ, because when they take you in, they're less oriented on each facet of you and initially overlook the rough spots. They are better equipped to deal with the chaos that ensues though, but too much will break them and cause them to redefine you.

If the root of the problem is intrinsic, the only fix is time and the development of Si.

And really that's only if you can nail them to the floor long enough to stick around. Their palms get itchy if they haven't been DOING something for the past ten minutes.

All generalities of course.

 

[Melkor]

No games until you've eaten your siblings, slept with your mother and killed your father!

 

[Cognisant]

Or fucked your father and killed your mother, either way.

We don't discriminate here, elder gods know we can't judge.

 

[Melkor]

They do!?

SHIT.

I was operating on the assumption that the elder Gods thought we were perfectly capable of judging!

NO-ONE IS SAFE. AAAAGHHHH!

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Cavalier, Doctor, thank you for the information. Didn't quite have time to post anything more than a briefly proofread post in the last two days, so I didn't post here for fear of offending someone; university life turns insane this time of year, and so do I.

I must say I'm somewhat surprised no one in this thread has asked me "who is Number One?", but I guess it's better that way.

No games until you've eaten your siblings, slept with your mother and killed your father!

Awww. I'm not even allowed to play with them first?

UPD:

6) Would you like to see a limit of one question per message?

7) Are you son/daughter of Ninety-Third?

8) What is the meaning of life?

9) Have you had enuf Q's?

You still have not answered that question of mine so I assume you missed it: what did you mean by 'vulnerable'?

6) No. I'd rather people made a new post for every new batch of questions they have, though. Makes it easier to keep up.

7) No. I was born to Eighty Sixth and Eighty Seventh.

8) There is none: I view any living organism as a piece of extremely complex machinery, and the only thing close to an 'intrinsic goal' any highly developed organism has is achieving and maintaining pleasurable states. We as a species have outgrown the most basic ways of doing that, so we need something bigger, more intricate to stimulate us to go forward.

Fortunately, most humans have the ability to make their own meaning in life, so I don't perceive universe in the light as bleak and hopeless as hardcore nihilists do.

It's still pretty bleak and promising to get really effing grimdark for Russians, though, so I must admit that, similarly to the aforementioned nihilists, I have some trouble with retaining my will to live.

9) No way. There is never enough Q.
Oh, wait, did you mean questions? The answer is still no, I'm afraid. I am occasionally forced to put answering questions on hold, but I will answer them for as long as they come.

 

[BigApplePi]

1) Have you had any bad experiences? Were they bad enough to affect your current life?

2) Would you take a chance on love?

3) Do you see limits to technology?

4) What kind of people cause you to feel vulnerable?

5) What is a good quality of yours (I won't ask for the "best")?

1) Nothing catastrophic, despite what my apparent obsession with reproductive organs might imply.
Childhood of relatively mild emotional abuse by narcissistic alcoholic father. A lifetime of trying to keep up with a ridiculously productive ENTP brother, whom I must say I respect greatly, even if I do not quite understand how he can work like an Energizer bunny. A childhood history of mild yet conveniently debilitating chronic pain, then about three years of the same chronic pain that I can no longer afford to let debilitate me. And a lifetime of being an INTP in the world of SJs, I guess?
In other words, nothing out of the ordinary.

Yes, those experiences have affected my life; in particular, feeling burning hatred for one of the people you live with on a day-to-day basis is, indeed, pretty life-changing.

Do you believe your "debilitating chronic pain" has caused you to be a better or more focused INTP than you otherwise might have been? Do you still live with your father? I ask that because someone once commented to me, "So you've forgiven your father." I wasn't sure at the time if that was true, but I will say that is a goal to strive for. Distance helps so what needs to be forgiven need not be reinforced.

2) Yes. For love, I'd bring down stars from the skies and gather magma from the Earth's mantle; heck, I'd even get off the couch and go to the gym.

This is an indication of how important love is. Why do you think people do not talk about or admit this requirement much ... or do they?

4) Not sure what you mean by that. Please elaborate.
If by 'feel vulnerable' you mean 'feel seething murderous rage', then SJs, ESXJs in particular.
ESXJs remind me of my father. I hated my father.

But honestly, I tried to be nonjudgmental and yet hated every SJ I've met. I always seem to get into arguments with them, and arguing with them is always about winning, which means that they'd sooner turn the argument into a farce than lose. And if they do lose, they'll be angry with you for 'making them look bad'. Unpleasant people.
Though maybe I've merely met the wrong kind of SJs. I don't know.

Hypocrites also get on my nerves, as well as people who abuse their position of authority. Which includes politicians and cops, obviously. Aside from them? Narcissists, wife-beaters, abusers in general. Bullies. So-called "philosophers" who argue for the sake of argument rather than to exchange opinions. Drunk people - the belligerent kind, not the sentimental kind. In short, everyone who reminds me of my father.

I cheated a little by using the word "vulnerable" hoping YOU would define it. And so you have given clues. By vulnerable I mean environmental conditions which would expose you to damage, be it physical or psychic.

Can you give a representative example of an SJ incident so SJ's can be talked about?

You have given too many other troubling situations to cover even if they were asked for. Care to ask ME a question on any of the above here? Ask BAP
I don't get many Q's possibly because I was so flippant about it.

5) That's a hard one. I guess my most prominent good trait is a developed Ne, which means that I can compensate for my weak Fe by joking and for my bad memory by instinctively building mental maps. I also have an intuitive understanding of languages... or so I was led to believe.

Aside from this, most people I meet tell me that I'm a smart guy, but that's not exactly saying much here on INTPf.

Anyone who thinks will probably develop a skill with it. What do you mean by "intuitive understanding of languages"? I know only English and some mathematics. I like your answers.

.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Do you believe your "debilitating chronic pain" has caused you to be a better or more focused INTP than you otherwise might have been? Do you still live with your father?

No, I believe it's the opposite: the debilitating chronic pain has allowed me to distance myself from the everyday school life, which has led to a decay of social skills and a severe tendency to procrastinate. That said, everyday school life sucked and all the extra time I spent procrastinating was awesome, so at least I enjoyed it.

I still live with my father, and more importantly, so do my brother and mother. Yes, I still hate him wholeheartedly and do not find reason to forgive him until everyone I love is out of his reach, but I prefer to maintain a facade of civility so as to hasten his recovery into a productive, not-fucking-with-our-heads-every-day stage of life.

This is an indication of how important love is. Why do you think people do not talk about or admit this requirement much ... or do they?

"Sonny, true love is the greatest thing in the world... except for a nice MLT."
Damn, now I'm hungry a sandwich. Or a sandvich, doesn't make much difference.

Answer: because people idealize love too much. When faced with actual love, they see it failing in some aspect, lose heart and ignore its being completely awesome in every other aspect.
Because of that, people strive to bring love down to an ordinary level so they don't have to face it in its usual intensity: if you're paying attention only to the bad sides of a phenomenon, then higher intensity of the phenomenon only serves to make it look worse.

Can you give a representative example of an SJ incident so SJ's can be talked about?

I'll give an average argument with my father as one example, even though I strongly suspect him to be a narcissist.
The arguments usually begin like this: he says something so painfully stupid that I can't help but correct him. When I do, he says that he's right and I'm wrong, without giving any arguments. I correct him again, and give arguments in my favor. He ignores the arguments completely and repeats that he's right and I'm wrong, now with more insistence and an implication that I'm always wrong against him.
The evidence-rejection cycle repeats a few times, with aggression on his part escalating and taking the form of guilt-tripping and ad hominem attacks: "I fed you and clothed you without a single 'thank you', and yet you dare call ME wrong", "Why do you think you're right? I actually do something useful, unlike you" and so on. Breaking the cycle at this point is useless; he'll just come back to the argument later and renew it with more conviction.
Eventually, I find the point of view where both he and I are correct and conclude the argument by explaining that point of view, 'reconciling' our concepts of the world. He then proceeds to claim that he won the argument and no one should argue with him because he's "never lost an argument".

Another example is with an ISTJ who fancies himself a scientist: he does not go so far as to insult me during conversations, but he still has that disgusting habit of repeating his point of view without giving any evidential basis for his ideas. Even if his point of view is unrealistic and I give arguments in favor of a different worldview, he's still unwilling to accept new ideas. Which is pretty much why I say 'fancies himself a scientist' and not 'kicks ass at science': despite having every other good quality a scientist might need, he does not have the mental flexibility to perceive the world as it is.
Eventually, I decided that talking to him like I do with other people is a lot of effort for no payoff, so I started to interrogate him instead: I ask his opinions, but do not answer any questions he has not asked explicitly. He seems to enjoy voicing his opinions a lot more than listening to mine, anyway. And the guy is a freaking encyclopedia on legs, so it's useful to give him a listening ear once in a while.

Anyone who thinks will probably develop a skill with it. What do you mean by "intuitive understanding of languages"? I know only English and some mathematics. I like your answers.

Example: I see or hear a phrase and I simply know if it's right or wrong based on the overall patterns I detected while reading or listening in that language.
It's not a perfect understanding and it works much worse when I try to write something instead of observing, but it's still there and no one else I know possesses it.
It's one of the reasons I can write grammatically correct sentences while failing to recall the difference between past perfect simple and past perfect continuous.

My math skills are a bit rusty, although, I must admit, for a good reason: I simply don't practice them. Plus, the math courses that I take are all about a lot of unintuitive memorization and solving easy yet time-consuming problems, with very little actual math in between. I suck both at memorization and at paying attention while doing boring stuff, so I don't get really good math grades.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

And the guy is a freaking encyclopedia on legs, so it's useful to give him a listening ear once in a while.

So you're saying.... he's got a collection of this stuff?:

Spoiler

 

[BigApplePi]

Official Q: Who is numero uno 94th? (excuse me if you've already answered.)

No, I believe it's the opposite: the debilitating chronic pain has allowed me to distance myself from the everyday school life, which has led to a decay of social skills and a severe tendency to procrastinate. That said, everyday school life sucked and all the extra time I spent procrastinating was awesome, so at least I enjoyed it.

My current life doesn't require great social skills, but they can be learned and I've learned to a modest level. Get this: I spent three years high school eating lunch at home followed by four years at college (all male) commuting to home. I never socialized. I had one date but I don't recall if that was after college or not. That's a painful omission in my life (seven years) but easily hid from others now ... as long as they don't ask me about football, to dance, or the rules for basketball.

I still live with my father, and more importantly, so do my brother and mother. Yes, I still hate him wholeheartedly and do not find reason to forgive him until everyone I love is out of his reach, but I prefer to maintain a facade of civility so as to hasten his recovery into a productive, not-fucking-with-our-heads-every-day stage of life.

Keep that civility, but so far I've only asked one Q.

"Sonny, true love is the greatest thing in the world... except for a nice MLT."
Damn, now I'm hungry a sandwich. Or a sandvich, doesn't make much difference.

That sandwich my wife just made for lunch is appreciated.

Answer: because people idealize love too much. When faced with actual love, they see it failing in some aspect, lose heart and ignore its being completely awesome in every other aspect.
Because of that, people strive to bring love down to an ordinary level so they don't have to face it in its usual intensity: if you're paying attention only to the bad sides of a phenomenon, then higher intensity of the phenomenon only serves to make it look worse.

Perhaps love always has pain associated with it. Also love is meant to be owned or lived. Let the experts talk about it until we all make a separate thread to work on it.

I'll give an average argument with my father as one example, even though I strongly suspect him to be a narcissist.
The arguments usually begin like this: he says something so painfully stupid that I can't help but correct him.

Glad I asked this Q (about SJ's) because you are off to a bad start. Why would you need to correct him? Why not recognize him as he is? Are you sure he believes what he says? Yet this is not so simple as I do the same thing with some. We'll have to look into this.

When I do, he says that he's right and I'm wrong, without giving any arguments. I correct him again, and give arguments in my favor. He ignores the arguments completely and repeats that he's right and I'm wrong, now with more insistence and an implication that I'm always wrong against him.
The evidence-rejection cycle repeats a few times, with aggression on his part escalating and taking the form of guilt-tripping and ad hominem attacks: "I fed you and clothed you without a single 'thank you', and yet you dare call ME wrong", "Why do you think you're right? I actually do something useful, unlike you" and so on. Breaking the cycle at this point is useless; he'll just come back to the argument later and renew it with more conviction.
Eventually, I find the point of view where both he and I are correct and conclude the argument by explaining that point of view, 'reconciling' our concepts of the world. He then proceeds to claim that he won the argument and no one should argue with him because he's "never lost an argument".

I was going to say he DID feed and cloth you but I see you've reached some compromise. Win? Define win. <--- that is a Q.

Another example is with an ISTJ who fancies himself a scientist: he does not go so far as to insult me during conversations, but he still has that disgusting habit of repeating his point of view without giving any evidential basis for his ideas. Even if his point of view is unrealistic and I give arguments in favor of a different worldview, he's still unwilling to accept new ideas. Which is pretty much why I say 'fancies himself a scientist' and not 'kicks ass at science': despite having every other good quality a scientist might need, he does not have the mental flexibility to perceive the world as it is.
Eventually, I decided that talking to him like I do with other people is a lot of effort for no payoff, so I started to interrogate him instead: I ask his opinions, but do not answer any questions he has not asked explicitly. He seems to enjoy voicing his opinions a lot more than listening to mine, anyway. And the guy is a freaking encyclopedia on legs, so it's useful to give him a listening ear once in a while.

These J's I see as specialists. We can learn from their knowledge of their areas. I think of two J's I've encountered on this Forum. The first I've liked a lot. Everyone would spar with him. He had me fooled a while but finally I figured the flaw in his argument. I strongly did not want to render it and still don't. Why kill the drama? Dealing with this has to be a compromise. The other J refused to talk to me. That gives me the signal to leave him alone. Why create wounds? If I have an outside view, there should exist an end-run around his, just as with your father.

My math skills are a bit rusty, although, I must admit, for a good reason: I simply don't practice them. Plus, the math courses that I take are all about a lot of unintuitive memorization and solving easy yet time-consuming problems, with very little actual math in between. I suck both at memorization and at paying attention while doing boring stuff, so I don't get really good math grades.

There are two kinds of math. One is rules for practicality; the other is truth and beauty. I would compare it with chess. Chess is awful if you can't recall the rules. Once knowing the rules there can be actions of great and admirable skill.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

1) Official Q: Who is numero uno 94th? (excuse me if you've already answered.)

2) Glad I asked this Q (about SJ's) because you are off to a bad start. Why would you need to correct him? Why not recognize him as he is? Are you sure he believes what he says? Yet this is not so simple as I do the same thing with some. We'll have to look into this.

3) I was going to say he DID feed and cloth you but I see you've reached some compromise. Win? Define win. <--- that is a Q.

4) Why kill the drama? Dealing with this has to be a compromise. The other J refused to talk to me. That gives me the signal to leave him alone. Why create wounds? If I have an outside view, there should exist an end-run around his, just as with your father.

5) There are two kinds of math. One is rules for practicality; the other is truth and beauty. I would compare it with chess. Chess is awful if you can't recall the rules. Once knowing the rules there can be actions of great and admirable skill.

1) Sasha Obama is a First.

2) Because he keeps ranting and ranting and ranting, and if you don't correct him at an initial stage his rants will get more and more illogical.
It's also a way to emotionally abuse us: so long as we suppress our desire to correct him, he has the intellectual supremacy over us. And he DOES use it to emotionally abuse people, because eventually, once you avoid conflict with him for long enough, his rants start to incorporate veiled insults for no reason other than to hurt you, to take advantage of your passivity.

3) I don't give a shit about winning or losing an argument. I do give a shit about his belittling my intelligence every time he 'wins'. He's arguing and insulting me in order to get an ego-trip at my expense.

As for the 'fed you' thing: firstly, it's irrelevant, so it has no place in a rational discussion. Secondly, only a complete asshole would guilt-trip people as his first and foremost way to 'convince' them that something is true.
Thirdly, he keeps using that argument in the most inappropriate ways.
If we tell him that him doing something hurts us as a family? "I FED you, you ungrateful shits!"
If we resist his attempts to humiliate us, like say 'no' to a humiliating request? "I'm the head of family here, you have no right to say 'no'!"
If we don't support his decision to get piss-drunk and smash up furniture? "I'm the one who earns money here, and you are all dead weight! Don't tell me what to do!"

It's his primary 'argument' when trying to make us agree with something we don't like, and one that I have learned to associate with the pain that comes later. Predictably, it makes me quite angry to hear that argument used.

4) Yes, I have gathered that much. I do reach compromises with healthy SJs, but that doesn't make them easy people to talk to.
My father is not the healthy kind of SJ, though, so you can't reach establish a compromise with him. If a conflict arists, you either fight him or surrender.

5) There's also the third kind, and that's "improperly taught math". It tells you the rules without giving a reason for their existence and hastily shows you the truthfulness of those rules without letting you see the beauty for yourself.
It's easier for S people to learn the required minimum that way, but it doesn't make sense from an NT's standpoint, and anyone trying to actually understand what the teacher is talking about would find it a Sysiphean labor. The only way to remedy that, as far as I'm aware, is self-education, and self-education takes a lot of work to do properly.

UPD:

You have given too many other troubling situations to cover even if they were asked for.

What do you mean by 'troubling situations'?

 

[BigApplePi]

1) Sasha Obama is a First.

If she is a 1 and you are 94, what linear scale are we talking here?

2) Because he keeps ranting and ranting and ranting, and if you don't correct him at an initial stage his rants will get more and more illogical.
It's also a way to emotionally abuse us: so long as we suppress our desire to correct him, he has the intellectual supremacy over us. And he DOES use it to emotionally abuse people, because eventually, once you avoid conflict with him for long enough, his rants start to incorporate veiled insults for no reason other than to hurt you, to take advantage of your passivity.

3) I don't give a shit about winning or losing an argument. I do give a shit about his belittling my intelligence every time he 'wins'. He's arguing and insulting me in order to get an ego-trip at my expense.

As for the 'fed you' thing: firstly, it's an illogical argument, so it has no place in a rational discussion. Secondly, only a complete asshole would guilt-trip people as his first and foremost way to 'convince' them that something is true.
Thirdly, he keeps using that argument in the most inappropriate ways.
If we tell him that him doing something hurts us as a family? "I FED you, you ungrateful shits!"
If we tell him "no" when he asks us to do something humiliating for his entertainment? "I'm the head of family here, you have no right to say 'no'!"
If we don't support his decision to get piss-drunk and smash up furniture? "I'm the one who earns money here, and you are all useless! Don't argue with me!"

It's his primary 'argument' when trying to make us agree with something we don't like, and one that I have learned to associate with the pain that comes later. Predictably, it makes me quite angry to hear that argument used.

4a) Yes, I have gathered that much. I do reach compromises with healthy SJs, but that doesn't make them easy people to talk to.
My father is not the healthy kind of SJ, though, so you can't exactly establish a compromise with him.

That does sound abusive. I will give you some thoughts of mine and hope they aren't too painful, but this is a painful situation.

A) You began this thread about playing a game. Now I'm not so sure this is a game. This is real. Am I right? Someone on this board told me once if I didn't like the way things were run here I could leave. That was painful and not too friendly but not particularly false. I don't suppose you can easily leave.

B) Anyway if your father were on this Forum I would ask him what is bothering him. Why does he drink? What is HIS pain? You say he must be narcissistic. So isn't everyone who is embedded in pain or in a helpless restricted life? I would want to find out more about him. Where does he come from? Does he hate his job? How does he feel about being a father and husband? Does he think he is hurting his family? Does he feel the only thing he has going for him is he feeds his family? Does he love his son yet finds his son ungrateful?

He would have to be sober for these inquiries. If not, I'd want to stay away. Note that to ask these Q's it helps to be free of pain oneself. Otherwise one has to overcome a distracting self-interest.

C) Comment on intelligence. I and I'm sure others here recognize you are quite intelligent. I appreciate your intelligence. You must know you are intelligent. Yet it seems to be important when he belittles your intelligence. Your father has lots of faults. You know that. Why would this intelligence thing what-he-sez matter? <-- That is a Q. You must OWN your own abilities.

D) Some day he will be old and weak. You will be the stronger. What will things be like then? Will you want revenge or will you now be the father who does fathering?

4b) Yes, I have gathered that much. I do reach compromises with healthy SJs, but that doesn't make them easy people to talk to.

I am working on this myself. If SJs are focused on something and to them I'm a scatterbrained Ne-INTP, I don't need to focus on their thing. A "J" has told me I'm no bargain either.

5) There's also the third kind, and that's "improperly taught math". It tells you the rules without giving a reason for their existence and hastily shows you the truthfulness of those rules without letting you see the beauty for yourself.
It's easier for S people to learn the required minimum that way, but it doesn't make sense from an NT's standpoint, and anyone trying to actually understand what the teacher is talking about would find it a Sysiphean labor. The only way to remedy that, as far as I'm aware, is self-education, and self-education takes a lot of work to do properly.

That sounds correct. Who would want to learn something unpleasantly taught? I have a math degree and taught it to freshmen in grad school. I was able to do math by always keeping ahead of the lesson. I first learned on my own and then got reinforced by the class afterward.

I remember in grad school they had a course called "tensor analysis." What was that? The professor never explained what it was used for. My impression was it was some sort of expanded algebra ... something not new I had seen before. Stupid and trivial. I had no clue it was used for relativity physics. I walked out of the class never learning it.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

1) If she is a 1 and you are 94, what linear scale are we talking here?

2) That does sound abusive. I will give you some thoughts of mine and hope they aren't too painful, but this is a painful situation.

A) You began this thread about playing a game. Now I'm not so sure this is a game. This is real. Am I right? Someone on this board told me once if I didn't like the way things were run here I could leave. That was painful and not too friendly but not particularly false. I don't suppose you can easily leave.

B) Anyway if your father were on this Forum I would ask him what is bothering him. Why does he drink? What is HIS pain? You say he must be narcissistic. So isn't everyone who is embedded in pain or in a helpless restricted life? I would want to find out more about him. Where does he come from? Does he hate his job? How does he feel about being a father and husband? Does he think he is hurting his family? Does he feel the only thing he has going for him is he feeds his family? Does he love his son yet finds his son ungrateful?

He would have to be sober for these inquiries. If not, I'd want to stay away. Note that to ask these Q's it helps to be free of pain oneself. Otherwise one has to overcome a distracting self-interest.

C) Comment on intelligence. I and I'm sure others here recognize you are quite intelligent. I appreciate your intelligence. You must know you are intelligent. Yet it seems to be important when he belittles your intelligence. Your father has lots of faults. You know that. Why would this intelligence thing what-he-sez matter? <-- That is a Q. You must OWN your own abilities.

D) Some day he will be old and weak. You will be the stronger. What will things be like then? Will you want revenge or will you now be the father who does fathering?


4) That sounds correct. Who would want to learn something unpleasantly taught? I have a math degree and taught it to freshmen in grad school. I was able to do math by always keeping ahead of the lesson. I first learned on my own and then got reinforced by the class afterward.

I remember in grad school they had a course called "tensor analysis." What was that? The professor never explained what it was used for. My impression was it was some sort of expanded algebra ... something not new I had seen before. Stupid and trivial. I had no clue it was used for relativity physics. I walked out of the class never learning it.

All right, my answers are getting long-winded. Using separators now.

---

1) Not mathemathical, so don't bother looking for clear-cut correlations. I'm not so sadistic as to base my nickname - on an INTP forum, of all places - on a riddle that takes education-specific knowledge to solve. It's more of a common sense riddle.

Clues: Sasha Obama's father is a Sixty-First.
There are significantly more than one person of any given number.

---

2)
A) This is not the game I meant, the game I meant involves numbers.

But while we're speaking metaphorically, I'd like to note that I don't currently want to play the game that is my life. I'm just going along with the motions because dying might end up being a regrettable choice. Not a stellar reason to live, I know, but it gets the job done. More or less.


B)
Brief background of my father:
He is the sole child of a narcissistic (or maybe antisocial, I'm not sure on that point; she's definitely got a Cluster B PD of some sort, though) mother and an alcoholic father.
Whenever he needs to insult me for not going to work, claims to be a self-made man since 18 years old despite the fact that he was financially supported by his extended and immediate family way into his twenties.

Credit where it's due, though, his behavior is an improvement over his mother's: at least he only tortures his family when he's drunk or sick or in a bad mood, whereas she doesn't even need an excuse to make other people's lives suck.


What hurts him:
In short? A lot of things that don't matter, nothing that does matter.

He feels hurt when he's publicly revealed to be less perfect than the 'model husband, genius entrepreneur' persona he projects.
He's really afraid of people finding out something shameworthy about him, yet that doesn't seem to stop him from doing shameworthy things.

He feels hurt when people he believes to be beneath him don't worship him (or, as he likes to put it, "give him the respect he deserves").

He feels exceptionally intense emotional pain when his delusions of his own omnipotence are contradicted by, say, his plans going awry or his opponents outwitting him.
However, he promptly switches blame from his own actions onto external objects: for example, his family members who 'do nothing to help him' or one of his underlings 'sabotaging' him.
That pain is what most often drives him into drinking binges.

What he doesn't feel bad about is hurting people. Or, at least, he doesn't regret any of the times he has hurt his family.
In all of his drunken self-pitying rants, not even once did he say anything about offending me, or undermining my brother's work, or humiliating my mother. Even when he screams (that's right: screams. Sometimes in the middle of the night. He's a drama queen like that) to the world that he's a failure in every other aspect, he never mentions being an inconsiderate asshole to his family.
No, to the contrary: he's the family's martyr, and everything he did, everything he endured, it was all for the family. He thinks he deserves to be praised and worshipped for that, and from the lack of laurels on his head and us at his feet he deduces that we are the inconsiderate ones in the relationship.


In other words, he meets the criteria for being a narcissist. He craves narcissistic supply the way one would a drug and he suffers narcissistic wounds when his self-image is threatened, but he doesn't process emotions the same way healthy people do. For example, he doesn't feel guilt as an internal pressure to avoid breaking his obligations; he only feels shame, the external pressure coming from his peers, which is conditional on whether his peers will find out.


Ungrateful son:
He will very convincingly blame everyone around him for things that go bad in his life, so of course he will call me an ungrateful son who does not return his so-called 'love'. He'll believe it, too: he's good at self-delusion.
I'm pretty sure you'd believe any lies he feeds you as well unless you were already convinced that he's a bullshitter through and through. Which makes him a pretty dangerous enemy to have in the long run, come to think of it.


C) Thanks to me being substandard in nearly every physical aspect, my mental abilities and integrity are an important part of my self-image. Now, that doesn't mean I'm insecure about it. I'm cool with honest people telling me I lied to them, or smart people telling me I'm wrong, because all of that is useful feedback, not a personal attack.

But some drunk asshole cheating his way into winning an argument and then telling me that I'm worse than him because I lost the argument? The sheer hypocrisy and irrationality of that behavior causes me to feel outrage - overwhelming amounts of it.
On some occasions, that outrage doesn't do anything special. But on some, significantly rarer occasions, it briefly but almost completely destroys my self-control, which causes me to feel intense, all-encompassing, murderous rage. The problem with all-encompassing rage specifically is, it muddles your thinking, which means it doesn't go back under control nearly as easily as it gets out.

Have you ever experienced how hard it is to avoid attacking your worst enemy while you see red, smell blood, taste blood and can only think about how much you want your quarry dead - no, not even dead: maimed, broken, in pain, under your complete control for the first time in your life?
While the enemy in question shows disdain towards you because outwardly, it seems like you're just breaking down in tears? And you know that he'll use your apparent moment of weakness as ammunition against you later?
Yeah, well, let's just say that I am far from sure that I'll be able to resist that temptation the next time I feel it.

Now you have the full reason, underlying emotions included, as to why I dislike discussing anything meaningful with people who tend to take arguments personally.
Do you believe this explanation satisfactory? Because honestly, I don't see what else there is to tell about it.


D) I wouldn't care for him, that's for sure; I'm basically babysitting that irresponsible pig right now, I don't want bothering with that crap when I don't have to do it. Provided I'd be alive and powerful enough to confront him without any severe consequences, I'd cut him out of mine and my family's life. What happens to him after that is not my concern.

That decision isn't based on hatred alone, by the way: he's just that dangerous. No matter his shortcomings, he is, like all narcissists, an exceptionally good manipulator; angering him with my disobedience and then allowing him even a chance to contact anyone within my social circle would be a very stupid thing to do.

---

3) Curious. I think I'll try that next semester.

 

[BigApplePi]

Ninety-Fourth.

Wow. I didn't expect your response which to say emotional would be an understatement. I suppose I asked for it with all my questioning.

Let me tell you that I don't mind giving advice or recommendations if I think I can have a positive effect, but I am no professional counselor*. You are very angry. For your own protection I think you need to put a lid on it. At your school are there any professional counselors? If there are, can you seek one out and report back here?

You asked me directly (do you know you did that?) if I had experience in what you are experiencing and fantasies of getting back at the enemy (paraphrase). The answer is yes. Easily yes. (You are not alone. Just ask some others on this Forum if they have been in the same boat.) I don't have to ask. I know the answer is yes. But I've overcome this to a large extent. I don't say I never get angry at injustice, or what I see as injustice, but it's important to be able to see the other side. Reread your post. Now ask yourself how much you see your father in you.

Let me ask you something. This is your thread. I have spoken with you. It would be good if you get some other reactions. (Ignore the jokes though ... as some will be tempted to take things lightly.) You can tell them you spoke to BAP, but BAP doesn't have all the answers and you want to know what they think or their experiences have been. Ask them on this thread. INTP's are not great with emotions ... it takes Fe training.

*We had one on this Forum. He would do private messages (PMs) with those who sought his aid, but he got the boot. I think it was because he pushed too hard on his favorite thing and this irritated too many people. I was against his booting because he had other virtues and I put up a poor defense.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Wow. I didn't expect your response which to say emotional would be an understatement. I suppose I asked for it with all my questioning.

Well, all that prodding indicated that you wanted to know the truth, so I stopped thinking whether you wished to handle the truth and just wrote it all out in as much detail as possible. I wasn't lashing out at you, if that's what you're getting at.

At your school are there any professional counselors? If there are, can you seek one out and report back here?

No, there are no professional counselors at my university; it doesn't work that way in Russia. I could go to a psychologist, but it's pricey and I'm low on money, so I was kinda hoping to delay it until more essential things are taken care of.
How about this: when I do go to a shrink, I'll create a new thread with the report.

You asked me directly (do you know you did that?) if I had experience in what you are experiencing and fantasies of getting back at the enemy (paraphrase). The answer is yes. Easily yes.

Yes, I'm aware I asked you that. Thank you for answering.

Reread your post. Now ask yourself how much you see your father in you.

Yes, I'm aware I have the same problems my father had; I'm monitoring my behavior and checking it for signs of disturbances, but there is no indication that I have any significant abnormalities except for anger and numbed emotions.
Which is more than enough to develop bigger issues, I know. I'm not going to procrastinate on getting a psychologist forever.

Let me ask you something. This is your thread. I have spoken with you. It would be good if you get some other reactions. (Ignore the jokes though ... as some will be tempted to take things lightly.) You can tell them you spoke to BAP, but BAP doesn't have all the answers and you want to know what they think or their experiences have been. Ask them on this thread. INTP's are not great with emotions ... it take Fe training.

I'm afraid I didn't get your exact meaning. Could you rephrase your request?

 

[BigApplePi]

Well, all that prodding indicated that you wanted to know the truth, so I stopped thinking whether you wished to handle the truth and just wrote it all out in as much detail as possible. I wasn't lashing out at you, if that's what you're getting at.

Oh no. You weren't lashing out at me. I'm only concerned my asking you Q's could bring out so much anger you might harm yourself. Then I would be responsible. As I said before, it's important to keep a lid on your anger.

No, there are no professional counselors at my university; it doesn't work that way in Russia. I could go to a psychologist, but it's pricey and I'm low on money, so I was kinda hoping to delay it until more essential things are taken care of.
How about this: when I do go to a shrink, I'll create a new thread with the report.

Then I will think about an alternative. Maybe a petite lecture or something. Sure a new thread, but if you go to a shrink, what goes on will look into things you may not be able to put yet into words, yet you could fool me, lol.

Yes, I'm aware I asked you that. Thank you for answering.

Yes, I'm aware I have the same problems my father had; I'm monitoring my behavior and checking it for signs of disturbances, but there is no indication that I have any significant abnormalities except for anger and numbed emotions.
Which is more than enough to develop bigger issues, I know. I'm not going to procrastinate on getting a psychologist forever.

Excellent. Hang in there. You will not have this problem forever.

I'm afraid I didn't get your exact meaning. Could you rephrase your request?

Well I was thinking your being angry with your father might be something to talk about with others who have this issue. But only those who have progressed further than you have.

It is quite common for a man to come to battle with his father. Many stories about this. The big one I think of is Oedipus. I don't recall you mentioning your relationship to your mother much. How is she to you?

I once thought I hated my father* but I failed to see him clearly. He had virtues as well as faults. I couldn't see the virtues because I thought the faults had damaged me. To recover I had to overcome the damage. Some of this I'm still working on.

Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

*My father was different than yours. My issue was one of neglect rather than abuse.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

I once thought I hated my father* but I failed to see him clearly. He had virtues as well as faults. I couldn't see the virtues because I thought the faults had damaged me. To recover I had to overcome the damage. Some of this I'm still working on.

*My father was different than yours. My issue was one of neglect rather than abuse.

Let's see... is this a roundabout way of making me acknowledge that my father has some good sides? Oh, yes, he does, I don't doubt it; he's a good manipulator, he is charming when he needs to be, and he is pretty professional whenever he isn't in a drunken stupor.

However, I hate him not because he's an asshole, or because he hurts the family more than he benefits it: those things are forgivable and understandable. No, it's a bit more immutable than that.
My hatred is born of necessity. When I let my guard down in his presence, he sees the weakness and hurts me. Hatred lets me compartmentalize, makes me hard to read, makes his insults ineffectual and his feelings unimportant, lets me fight back without going berserk. Therefore, I will hate him until he's no longer in a position to hurt me.

It is quite common for a man to come to battle with his father. Many stories about this. The big one I think of is Oedipus. I don't recall you mentioning your relationship to your mother much. How is she to you?

She's caring and protective. Our ways of thinking and doing things differ significantly, but she's a hell of a lot nicer about it than SJs; I currently assume she's an ISFP.

She is motivated to protect and support her family, and doesn't demand anything in return; however, she does need respect and recognition in the form of thank-yous, general politeness and aid. Conforming to those needs has taught me to be polite with everyone I meet and to avoid lashing out physically.

Since she's taking the brunt of my father's abuse, I see it as my obligation to support her emotionally, which means, among other things, not killing myself. That's the only reason I'm still located above ground.

It's noteworthy, however, that I don't feel any familial bonds with her, nor with my brother. I assume being an INTP is part of the reason for that, suppressing my emotions is another.

Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

The father in question really has to review his priorities if he would so easily betray his son's trust in order to make a point.

Moral of the story? There is no moral here, because the consequences of these actions are not outlined and there is no context from which to deduce the consequences. It's just a story about a reckless idiot and his son.

And if I have to find a moral, then I'll pick this one: this story is a piece of social commentary on people's tragically inadequate understanding of child endangerment and its psychological effects.

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

The father in question really has to review his priorities if he would so easily betray his son's trust in order to make a point.

Moral of the story? There is no moral here, because the consequences of these actions are not outlined and there is no context from which to deduce the consequences. It's just a story about a reckless idiot and his son.

And if I have to find a moral, then I'll pick this one: this story is a piece of social commentary on people's tragically inadequate understanding of child endangerment and its psychological effects.

This is NOT the moral of the story. Is anyone else reading this? I invite you to speculate on the moral. Need a clue? Suppose I give you guys 24 hours and then I will give you a clue.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

This is NOT the moral of the story. Is anyone else reading this? I invite you to speculate on the moral. Need a clue? Suppose I give you guys 24 hours and then I will give you a clue.

Oh, I see, so there was a particular answer you sought. Very well, if I were to seek the correct answer based on symbolical rather than practical interpretation of the story:

The moral is that the process of reaching maturity requires the child to become disillusioned in authority figures and therefore, be less reliant on them in the future. Being failed by one's parent or similar figure is one of the ways people become disillusioned in authority figures. We are intended to assume that the father's actions will do more good than harm.

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

The moral is that the process of reaching maturity requires the child to become disillusioned in authority figures and therefore, be less reliant on them in the future. Being failed by one's parent or similar figure is one of the ways people become disillusioned in authority figures. We are intended to assume that the father's actions will do more good than harm.

The clue is that the father loves his son. Yours is very close to the answer I was thinking of though I'd put it differently.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

The clue is that the father loves his son. Yours is very close to the answer I was thinking of though I'd put it differently.

Putting it differently in the light that the father loves his son:
"The father wants his son to understand that one cannot rely on his parents forever."

My problem with that statement is, the father is doing it in a very wrong way. That glaring and unprovoked display of hostility from a person the child trusts the most - and it was hostility, not just a random 'shit happens' moment, because good ol' dad has asked his son to trust him unconditionally and then openly betrayed that trust - is more likely to mess with the kid's head than to turn him into a mature individual. The message that was sent by that action wasn't "don't rely on your parents", it was "don't trust anyone, even those you have every reason to trust".

The really tragic part is that the damage done by that incident will be even harder to fix than the damage from other, more common kinds of abuse. Do you know why? Because that kid won't be able to put his trust in anyone, not just authority figures - and 'anyone' means therapists, too.

So, yeah, I stand by my statement about the father being a reckless idiot. Whether his intentions were good or bad doesn't matter: the results of his actions will be screwed up anyway.

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

This story is intended to be a metaphor. Whether it is a real story or not I do not know. It was told to me.

We have to understand the male and female archetypes (generalities). The child in the beginning has no lessons and is separate from the rest of the world. The mother is intended to be the caring and nurturing part of the world. This is necessary for the child's survival. If I understand it 94, you are getting a measure of that on your mother's side. The father is intended to present the real world in all its strength, danger and destructiveness. If the mother had full reign, the child would remain weak and unable to face the real world as soon as the parents passed. The child MUST survive. That is where the father comes in. The real world is full of nastiness and the growing child has to learn that to survive.

This interpretation comes from Jung or his counterparts. I am not so studied as to verify this being somewhat rebellious to authority myself. In the real world we do not find full archetypes. We are all part male and part female. We all nurture or are nurtured. We all embrace and reject. Your father as abusive and negative as he is, is still presenting you will a lesson. Eventually you will have to reject the need to be taken care of and stand on your own two feet and accept or reject what you find in the outside world.

 

[Brontosaurie]

wow this is almost as conceptual as the wall

 

[BigApplePi]

wow this is almost as conceptual as the wall

Explain. Pink Floyd?

 

[Brontosaurie]

Explain. Pink Floyd?

yes

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Your father as abusive and negative as he is, is still presenting you will a lesson. Eventually you will have to reject the need to be taken care of and stand on your own two feet and accept or reject what you find in the outside world.

I find this deeply offensive because it more or less says that I should feel grateful for the abuse. By extension, I probably should jump at the chance to get some more emotional hurt into my system because, hey, I'll learn something, right?
I believe that wasn't a very well-thought argument, and I'm a bit too angry about it to avoid making it personal, so I simply will not answer it.

Besides, I already learned that lesson, and it was with my mother, not my father.

The father is intended to present the real world in all its strength, danger and destructiveness.

Key word is 'present'. The difference between presenting and representing danger as a father is the difference between showing a knife to your child and shoving a knife into your child.
In your story, the father represents betrayal, whereas he needed to present it in a safe, timely manner.

 

[BigApplePi]

I find this deeply offensive because it more or less says that I should feel grateful for the abuse. By extension, I probably should jump at the chance to get some more emotional hurt into my system because, hey, I'll learn something, right?
I believe that wasn't a very well-thought argument, and I'm a bit too angry about it to avoid making it personal, so I simply will not answer it.

Are you saying you can't forgive me in addition to not forgiving your father? Don't forget I am human (or close to it). You began this thread with, "Hello world, I want to play a game." Looks like if we extend this dialog to call it a "game", then I made a bad game move. Let's see if you can forgive me for this.

There is another thread on this Forum about abuse. I haven't had the chance to comment this idea there: Abuse is bad if it goes too far. If in the story the son hits his head and ends up with brain damage, the father goes to prison for child abuse. That is not the meaning of the story. Abuse destroys. "Tough love" does not. Tough love is a term defined here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tough love

"I believe that wasn't a very well-thought argument." I suppose yes. This is the internet. I didn't detail it enough.

Besides, I already learned that lesson, and it was with my mother, not my father.

Key word is 'present'. The difference between presenting and representing danger as a father is the difference between showing a knife to your child and shoving a knife into your child.
In your story, the father represents betrayal, whereas he needed to present it in a safe, timely manner.

This is a problem with the internet. When the story was told to me one understood it in a context as teaching a lesson. One is supposed to abstract the BEST in the story not the WORST. You got angry at me. Do you now think I had bad intent? Do you think I told a bad story? Or at least told it badly?

Here is an experience: I believe up to now you've thought well of me. You've thought, "This is a good and helpful person to talk to." Then this changed. Now you are more or less angry with me. I've told you your father is doing something good. That is outrageously wrong. Who is this guy talking to me?

Yet I am the same person. I'm no different from the person you started out with. From my POV you do not know me. You don't know if I'm careless, hurried, distracted, lazy, uncaring, stupid ... none of those. You don't know me.

Your move ...

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

Are you saying you can't forgive me in addition to not forgiving your father?

No, I'm saying that I was too angry not to respond to you in the form of a rant. Why do you think I spent five hours writing the last post? I was trying to respond politely and ended up writing a rant full of personal attacks instead, five times in a row.

Unlike my father, there is no purpose in staying angry at you, and I'm quite aware that this particular case of anger is inadequate to the offense, which is why I didn't act upon it in the first place. Your 'bad move' is forgivable, I just didn't forgive quickly enough.

One more point in favor of why abuse does not make one stronger, even as far as anger is concerned. Anger might feel good, but it's far from useful when debating.

Abuse is bad if it goes too far. If in the story the son hits his head and ends up with brain damage, the father goes to prison for child abuse. That is not the meaning of the story. Abuse destroys.

Here's my outlook: that incident, brain damage or no, will leave a lasting impression in the child's mind - we are talking about a young child, after all, which means he is impressionable and still taking most attacks personally.

Because he will be hurt by the betrayal and his father, like any well-meaning fool of a parent, will deny that he has done anything to hurt the child, the experience will be misunderstood; the child won't know what caused his father to betray him, then conclude that it's something about himself that made his father so hostile.
Because of that, the child will be incapable of trusting any people unconditionally, which means that he'll grow up suspicious of everyone around him, unable to invest trust in other people while demanding them to be completely honest with him, hypervigilant, believing that people are going to betray him any time now.

He'll be a jealous, controlling jerk in relationships, and won't be able to emotionally connect with his girlfriend/spouse much farther than is necessary to see how much she hates his controlling tendencies. He'll be blind to the fact that she loves him, too, and will get defensive when she does anything to make him trust her, because that's exaclty what happened "last time": his father convinced him to trust, and then betrayed that trust. He will seek to make people love him with bribes and threats, because trusting them to love him is an alien concept to him.

The stress of being surrounded by enemies will take a heavy toll on his mental state, so he'll go into substance abuse to let go of his defensiveness; while drunk, he will either be aggressive or overly sentimental, depending on how his and his father's relationship has turned out, but others will notice that he "changes completely" when under the influence of alcohol. He will probably escalate to drug use later, since alcohol doesn't exactly cut it.

Yep, that seems like an outstanding citizen to me, all right. His father's "tough love" didn't destroy anything in him, at all.

This is a problem with the internet. When the story was told to me one understood it in a context as teaching a lesson. One is supposed to abstract the BEST in the story not the WORST. You got angry at me. Do you now think I had bad intent? Do you think I told a bad story? Or at least told it badly?

Here is an experience: I believe up to now you've thought well of me. You've thought, "This is a good and helpful person to talk to." Then this changed. Now you are more or less angry with me. I've told you your father is doing something good. That is outrageously wrong. Who is this guy talking to me?

Yet I am the same person. I'm no different from the person you started out with. From my POV you do not know me. You don't know if I'm careless, hurried, distracted, lazy, uncaring, stupid ... none of those. You don't know me.

Your move ...

I believe strongly that this story is bad, and I refuse to unsee the bad sides.
I'm going to see it as bad until it has a "do not try this at home, kids" part which explains what the guy did wrong, or unless you change the story to make sure the father presents betrayal in a less damaging way. Otherwise, some well-meaning, yet not sufficiently educated person is going to hear that story, interpret it literally and abuse their children "for their own good", unaware that their actions will have severe consequences later in life. There is no shortage of tragic incidents like that.
Plus, unlike you, I don't find anything inherently redeeming in the idea of the father in that story actually loving his child. Love doesn't stop one from unknowingly harming those they love, so why should I treat his actions any differently?

I still think of you well, and do not perceive you as an enemy yet. This miscommunication has simply reminded me that you're not telepathic, so you are bound to push a berserk button or two eventually. Plus, you have some beliefs that I cannot fully understand, so I'll account for that the next time I start to assume you "wrong" rather than coming from a different position.

UPD:

You began this thread with, "Hello world, I want to play a game."

That was a joke, people. I didn't really want to play a game, I didn't even know what I'd say if someone innocently asked "which game?". I just found the idea of combining "hello world" with Jigsaw's "hello X, I want to play a game" to be funny. There's nothing more to it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Good morning 94th. I will repeat the story so anyone can know what we're talking about.

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Here is a simple story I heard once: A father and his young boy. The father says to the son, "Trust me." He put his son on the stairway and said, "Fall back. I will catch you." The son falls back trusting his father. As he falls, the father steps away letting his son fall to the ground. The story doesn't say anything after that. What do you think the moral of this story is?

No, I'm saying that I was too angry not to respond to you in the form of a rant. Why do you think I spent five hours writing the last post? I was trying to respond politely and ended up writing a rant full of personal attacks instead, five times in a row.

Unlike my father, there is no purpose in staying angry at you, and I'm quite aware that this particular case of anger is inadequate to the offense, which is why I didn't act upon it in the first place. Your 'bad move' is forgivable, I just didn't forgive quickly enough.

Thank you for considering forgiving me. I'm not entirely forgivable if (if!) I tell a bad story. Isn't it amazing what anger can do? ... and we as INTP's are supposed to be good at reason. BTW I see that you are ... good at keeping returning to reason in hopefully in the end.

One more point in favor of why abuse does not make one stronger, even as far as anger is concerned. Anger might feel good, but it's far from useful when debating.

INTP's are not good with this emotion thing. But others are. They can skillfully use it as a weapon. I could guess your father uses anger to his advantage. Can you guess his temperament type? I don't recall if you said that earlier.

Here's my outlook: that incident, brain damage or no, will leave a lasting impression in the child's mind - we are talking about a young child, after all, which means he is impressionable and still taking most attacks personally.

Yes it will. I don't know child psychology well enough to know what age the story was meant for. Maybe we can figure that out.

Because he will be hurt by the betrayal and his father, like any well-meaning fool of a parent, will deny that he has done anything to hurt the child, the experience will be misunderstood; the child won't know what caused his father to betray him, then conclude that it's something about himself that made his father so hostile.
Because of that, the child will be incapable of trusting any people unconditionally, which means that he'll grow up suspicious of everyone around him, unable to invest trust in other people while demanding them to be completely honest with him, hypervigilant, believing that people are going to betray him any time now.

He'll be a jealous, controlling jerk in relationships, and won't be able to emotionally connect with his girlfriend/spouse much farther than is necessary to see how much she hates his controlling tendencies. He'll be blind to the fact that she loves him, too, and will get defensive when she does anything to make him trust her, because that's exaclty what happened "last time": his father convinced him to trust, and then betrayed that trust. He will seek to make people love him with bribes and threats, because trusting them to love him is an alien concept to him.

The stress of being surrounded by enemies will take a heavy toll on his mental state, so he'll go into substance abuse to let go of his defensiveness; while drunk, he will either be aggressive or overly sentimental, depending on how his and his father's relationship has turned out, but others will notice that he "changes completely" when under the influence of alcohol. He will probably escalate to drug use later, since alcohol doesn't exactly cut it.

Yep, that seems like an outstanding citizen to me, all right. His father's "tough love" didn't destroy anything in him, at all.

I believe strongly that this story is bad, and I refuse to unsee the bad sides.
I'm going to see it as bad until it has a "do not try this at home, kids" part which explains what the guy did wrong, or unless you change the story to make sure the father presents betrayal in a less damaging way. Otherwise, some well-meaning, yet not sufficiently educated person is going to hear that story, interpret it literally and abuse their children "for their own good", unaware that their actions will have severe consequences later in life. There is no shortage of tragic incidents like that.
Plus, unlike you, I don't find anything inherently redeeming in the idea of the father in that story actually loving his child. Love doesn't stop one from unknowingly harming those they love, so why should I treat his actions any differently?

I still think of you well, and do not perceive you as an enemy yet. This miscommunication has simply reminded me that you're not telepathic, so you are bound to push a berserk button or two eventually. Plus, you have some beliefs that I cannot fully understand, so I'll account for that the next time I start to assume you "wrong" rather than coming from a different position.

You use the word, "betrayal" a lot. Your interpretation is absolutely correct. Things could turn out that way from the boy's experience. However it is only one interpretation. Let's look at another:

Son. I want you to know I love you. I loved you before what I did and I love you now. When I told you I would catch you I did not. I wouldn't want you to get hurt for the world. I only wanted to show you that the world is full of unpredictable things. Just because someone tells you something you have to examine it for yourself. You cannot always rely on what people tell you. You have to look back if there is danger you may fall. Check if safety is really behind you. Most of the time this is a good world because it is full of love. Your mother and father will look out for you because they love and cherish you. But not always. There will come a time when you will have to be on your own. I want you to be prepared. Now let's go and play that game I bought you that you asked me for. We are going to have fun the rest of the evening.

 

[Ninety-Fourth]

I'm not entirely forgivable if (if!) I tell a bad story. Isn't it amazing what anger can do? ... and we as INTP's are supposed to be good at reason. BTW I see that you are ... good at keeping returning to reason in hopefully in the end.

Eh, don't mention it. As far as I've noticed, most INTPs, including me, forgive people lightly when they want to. Ne-Si interaction makes it surprisingly easy to find justifications for people's actions.

INTP's are not good with this emotion thing. But others are. They can skillfully use it as a weapon. I could guess your father uses anger to his advantage. Can you guess his temperament type? I don't recall if you said that earlier.

If - if - he wasn't a narcissist, I'd say ESTJ. He is an extrovert, he is definitely not the N type, his T takes priority over F, and he's a traditionalist. Function-by-function analysis confirms the type further.

But, in any case, narcissists are generally good at manipulating people. Understandably so: they use emotions as weaponry their entire lives.

Yes it will. I don't know child psychology well enough to know what age the story was meant for. Maybe we can figure that out.

You use the word, "betrayal" a lot. Your interpretation is absolutely correct. Things could turn out that way from the boy's experience. However it is only one interpretation. Let's look at another:

<snip>

That's one way to look at it. No less valid than mine, have to admit.
Let's just agree to disagree. The only way to resolve our disagreement is to compare the probabilities of either scenario happening, and this will only turn into a convoluted mess if we go there.

Also, I used the word betrayal because what the guy did to his son is betrayal. He was unfaithful in protecting the child in spite of an existing arrangement between the two.