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Having kids

scorpiomover

The little professor
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Not really. A world without balance could mean the majority suffers, no good force prevails. It doesn't mean life doesn't exist. Nice magical thinking
IIRC from biology classes, the pH in human blood has an extremely narrow range, like +/-0.05pH.
The range of temperatures that the human body can handle is far, far less than the range of temperatures found in the universe. Just think about the temperature of the Sun: 5000 C.
The range of pressures that the human body can handle, is very tiny compared to even the pressures found in the universe, such as the low pressure of outer space, and the high pressures under water.
So it goes on.

Even when it comes to temperatures and pressures that the body CAN handle, if the changes are not extremely gradual, then the body suffers severe harm. Just consider the bends. Divers are fine at the top of the ocean. Divers are fine at the bottom. But if they go up too quick, major problems.

Most of the body's work is to do with homeostasis, maintaining the body's balance.
We evolved to put so much effort into balance, because randomly, other versions didn't, and they, well, they're not here anymore. I think that Darwin called that "going extinct".
 

Inexorable Username

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I'm not sure if I care about passing my own genes to a progeny, I've been scared of the possibility that they could become anything and I would have to bare that responsibility for the rest of my life (Quite selfish but also not reckless, many horror stories of parents neglecting their kids). However, I've always liked the idea of adoption, picking a child that was forsaken that I would like to guide through out the world.

I'd prefer a choice rather than a responsibility, as in it is my choice to undertake this responsibility (to which I know the child) rather than an unpredictable random genetic generator that is conception. I wouldn't try and pick a perfect child but maybe one that seems to have been forsaken (beyond being an orphan). I'd also get the added benefit of not having to raise the kid in the earlier years which would disrupt my sleep, so adopting at the age of 3-4 and above.

Does anyone want kids, or feel a responsibility to do so? If so, why?

Would you adopt a kid or do you have a preference for creating your own?

I’ve been thinking the same! Well, not precisely. I would like to adopt. I wanted to be able to pursue my career and my dreams, as a woman. I want to launch a non-profit organization that I feel could really influence the world.

I’ve always been a solitary creature, and ever since I was a child I engaged in solitary activities that have built up my skill in different ways throughout my life. I also have a deep sense of family. I like my last name, and I feel like it’s part of who I am. I’m proud of who my parents are. I love to learn and explore new skills, and I love to change, grow, experiment with things in life like alternate sleep cycles....

Marrying someone felt like, as an individual, I would in a sense...be dead. It sounds depressing, but I’ve talked to other women who feel the same. You don’t have a name anymore, so you’re not your fathers daughter - you don’t belong to your birth family. I would feel like a stranger or an imposter going to Thanksgiving with them. There’s so much you have to do, and so much relies on your ability to do it well, there isn’t time for you to be you anymore. Raising kids...I love kids...but I would be so intellectually frustrated that I think I would spend most of my time crying in secret. I don’t think that I could find a man that would be supportive of me enough, or want to converse or spend enough intimate time with me, to satisfy me intellectually and emotionally. It would be a burden to him.

I did some looking into it and came to the conclusion that most wives are miserable, and most regret that they had to give up on their dreams.

It’s not for me...rather selfishly, I value my own freedom and independence too much. I would be afraid of being a depressed mom, because I wouldn’t want my child to suffer from my inability to thrive.

But I DO very much want to adopt! I think that once my non-profit organization and my startup are established, my adoptive child would have a very enriching environment! I love working with teens and I have a lot of empathy for people with “baggage”. I always try to help the youth whenever I can. I think I could handle it.

great question! Thanks!
 

Inexorable Username

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I view breeding as evil since you are basically saying, "yeah i know there are kids without homes but i want one with my blood." I really would like to adopt, because from time spent around kids, I know it will help me heal/fix the thing that makes me kind of cold and distant, teach me to care for something, or more accurately someone. However im not really at the point mentally or financially so im not going to risk fucking up multiple lives. If I get my shit together I would preferably have a little kid farm, so they have each other, it would be great until they hit puberty and the incest started. is it technically incest if they arent related?
The sad thing about kids is most parents dont care enough to educate themselves on how you actually should raise a kid. anyhoo

To avoid the incest on the kid farm, you start sex ed with them early on. Incest usually happens when they’re really young, I believe. Teach kids about the anatomy of teddy bears using child terminology like “wee wee”, so that healthcare professionals can understand what they’re talking about if need be. Obviously, then you can teach them what behavior is appropriate and inappropriate, and when to tattle.
I learned about some child abuse within religious cultures, and the victims said that the major reason they were abused was that they didn’t have any words to discuss or understand the parts of bodies.
I think, also, the more you’re able to make these biological discussions feel normal and safe for kids, the less fear they have when it comes to reporting an incident, and the less shame they feel when they undergo puberty.
I think you can’t really expect there to not be any “show me yours” activity. The trick is to raise a kid that will report that information so you can shut that stuff down with a quickness. Same goes for weird pervey adults. I feel like those instances rarely happen right away. There’s clues early on. Your kid just needs to know how to look for them and tell you.

As for incest in older kids...well by then they should know enough about incest that they should be too ashamed to act on their hormones if they feel attracted to a siblings (The kids will view each other like siblings, so to them, psychologically, it is incest). Education is the key factor - as well as exposure to children in outer society. Educated children who have been properly socialized rarely engage in incest once they’re past the age of 6 or so, I think.
 

peoplesuck

is escaping
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only halfway there
I view breeding as evil since you are basically saying, "yeah i know there are kids without homes but i want one with my blood." I really would like to adopt, because from time spent around kids, I know it will help me heal/fix the thing that makes me kind of cold and distant, teach me to care for something, or more accurately someone. However im not really at the point mentally or financially so im not going to risk fucking up multiple lives. If I get my shit together I would preferably have a little kid farm, so they have each other, it would be great until they hit puberty and the incest started. is it technically incest if they arent related?
The sad thing about kids is most parents dont care enough to educate themselves on how you actually should raise a kid. anyhoo

To avoid the incest on the kid farm, you start sex ed with them early on. Incest usually happens when they’re really young, I believe. Teach kids about the anatomy of teddy bears using child terminology like “wee wee”, so that healthcare professionals can understand what they’re talking about if need be. Obviously, then you can teach them what behavior is appropriate and inappropriate, and when to tattle.
I learned about some child abuse within religious cultures, and the victims said that the major reason they were abused was that they didn’t have any words to discuss or understand the parts of bodies.
I think, also, the more you’re able to make these biological discussions feel normal and safe for kids, the less fear they have when it comes to reporting an incident, and the less shame they feel when they undergo puberty.
I think you can’t really expect there to not be any “show me yours” activity. The trick is to raise a kid that will report that information so you can shut that stuff down with a quickness. Same goes for weird pervey adults. I feel like those instances rarely happen right away. There’s clues early on. Your kid just needs to know how to look for them and tell you.

As for incest in older kids...well by then they should know enough about incest that they should be too ashamed to act on their hormones if they feel attracted to a siblings (The kids will view each other like siblings, so to them, psychologically, it is incest). Education is the key factor - as well as exposure to children in outer society. Educated children who have been properly socialized rarely engage in incest once they’re past the age of 6 or so, I think.
It is probably best just just have two kids. Im not sure how it affects children to be raised with a high child-to-parent ratio. If you do adopt just remember that though you may not need a man, it doesn't mean your child doesn't.
 

washti

yo vengo para lo mío
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Messages
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---
I once had built a spreadsheet with decision trees and cost for options of preconciving health optimalization, pregnancy time stuff, delivery and up to one year newborn rearing. Was quite detailed. I found this activity quite interesting. Reading thread now I regret that the spreadsheet died with disc formatting.

I like watching babies playing with animals on YouTube.

Sometimes I imagine what type of toys I would like my baby play with. Then I spend long time browsing shops with educational toys wanting to buy so many of them and same time being irritated on myself for wanting it. Kinda pointless thing really.

I like to ask guys if they are thinking about it. Online. I get typical answers like those in posts above ( im too independed, I'm too fucked/poor we are doomed - i dont wanna them to suffer, overpopulation etc). IRL I dont actually encountered anyone planning and prepering for having kids except for rushed spendings when woman is already pregnant. I found it unplesant to watch.

So hmm wanting kids is somewhere on a back of my mind, manifesting time to time in more conscious form.
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
760
---
I view breeding as evil since you are basically saying, "yeah i know there are kids without homes but i want one with my blood." I really would like to adopt, because from time spent around kids, I know it will help me heal/fix the thing that makes me kind of cold and distant, teach me to care for something, or more accurately someone. However im not really at the point mentally or financially so im not going to risk fucking up multiple lives. If I get my shit together I would preferably have a little kid farm, so they have each other, it would be great until they hit puberty and the incest started. is it technically incest if they arent related?
The sad thing about kids is most parents dont care enough to educate themselves on how you actually should raise a kid. anyhoo

To avoid the incest on the kid farm, you start sex ed with them early on. Incest usually happens when they’re really young, I believe. Teach kids about the anatomy of teddy bears using child terminology like “wee wee”, so that healthcare professionals can understand what they’re talking about if need be. Obviously, then you can teach them what behavior is appropriate and inappropriate, and when to tattle.
I learned about some child abuse within religious cultures, and the victims said that the major reason they were abused was that they didn’t have any words to discuss or understand the parts of bodies.
I think, also, the more you’re able to make these biological discussions feel normal and safe for kids, the less fear they have when it comes to reporting an incident, and the less shame they feel when they undergo puberty.
I think you can’t really expect there to not be any “show me yours” activity. The trick is to raise a kid that will report that information so you can shut that stuff down with a quickness. Same goes for weird pervey adults. I feel like those instances rarely happen right away. There’s clues early on. Your kid just needs to know how to look for them and tell you.

As for incest in older kids...well by then they should know enough about incest that they should be too ashamed to act on their hormones if they feel attracted to a siblings (The kids will view each other like siblings, so to them, psychologically, it is incest). Education is the key factor - as well as exposure to children in outer society. Educated children who have been properly socialized rarely engage in incest once they’re past the age of 6 or so, I think.
It is probably best just just have two kids. Im not sure how it affects children to be raised with a high child-to-parent ratio. If you do adopt just remember that though you may not need a man, it doesn't mean your child doesn't.

Oh, well in my case, I would only be adopting an older child who said, themselves, that they are interested in a single mom. Older children have a very slim chance of being adopted and orphaned girls have been abused by men. If my plans pan out the way I would like to have a large plot of land and rescue animals. I’m hoping that I might be able to make a substantial difference in an orphan’s life by helping them to build meaningful emotional connections with animals, and teaching them all that I know in my professional trade so they can be a success in the modern world. I really do think that if a child has been abused or neglected, the ability to understand and connect with animals who have also been abused and neglected could really be a healing experience. Just having other creatures who understand you, and rely on you for their welfare...helping in that way heals.
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
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Joined
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Messages
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---
I once had built a spreadsheet with decision trees and cost for options of preconciving health optimalization, pregnancy time stuff, delivery and up to one year newborn rearing. Was quite detailed. I found this activity quite interesting. Reading thread now I regret that the spreadsheet died with disc formatting.

I like watching babies playing with animals on YouTube.

Sometimes I imagine what type of toys I would like my baby play with. Then I spend long time browsing shops with educational toys wanting to buy so many of them and same time being irritated on myself for wanting it. Kinda pointless thing really.

I like to ask guys if they are thinking about it. Online. I get typical answers like those in posts above ( im too independed, I'm too fucked/poor we are doomed - i dont wanna them to suffer, overpopulation etc). IRL I dont actually encountered anyone planning and prepering for having kids except for rushed spendings when woman is already pregnant. I found it unplesant to watch.

So hmm wanting kids is somewhere on a back of my mind, manifesting time to time in more conscious form.

That’s pretty common with women I think. I browse baby toys, still. My cousin loves to look at their little booties and mittens and imagine which little outfits she would get. A number of women I’ve talked to have had vivid dreams of their babies that they’re convinced are prophetic. (I’ve had one of these myself, it's really confusing). I’ve also read probably at least about 7-8 books on child development and parenting. Actually, 9 I think.
The child instinct is strong in women. I once had a situation while babysitting where I came home and the doors to the home were open. I had my kids wait outside while I went in. My cousin had someone come into the home at 11 at night while the children were asleep. She slipped downstairs into the kitchen and grabbed a carving knife, basically intent on stabbing this guy to death, and then she found out it was just their crazy grandma! The point is, you don’t even hesitate to defend the children, even if they’re not your own. You’re well aware that your life could be in danger, but that thought is so small and so far back in the brain compared to the alarm bell screaming in your head that your kids (you always think of them as yours even though they aren’t) are threatened by some unseen monster that’s lurking around, waiting to attack them.

When you’re talking about instincts that deeply ingrained, making plans and spreadsheets, and browsing baby things...it sort of makes sense. There’s a deep obsession and tbh, it seems to grow over time.

The only thing that seems to counteract this is when women can’t find the mate their looking for, or believe he doesn’t exist, then the fear that your child won’t have a proper family outweighs the instincts of wanting to have the child to begin with. If women are honest with themselves, if your child fails at the end of the day, or if they suffer psychologically, you will always blame yourself. Even if it wasn’t your fault.
 

washti

yo vengo para lo mío
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Messages
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---
When you’re talking about instincts that deeply ingrained, making plans and spreadsheets, and browsing baby things...it sort of makes sense. There’s a deep obsession and tbh, it seems to grow over time.
Heh. I'm curious how it will turn after ten years if I will be lucky to survive that long.

How about men who worked at sperm banks and gamed reproduction replacing other men samples by their own semen. One guy with 2000 progeny. Is this how instinct manifest in the brightest specimens?

Is there equivalent trend for woman?
I'm too lazy to google today. ;p
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
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Messages
760
---
When you’re talking about instincts that deeply ingrained, making plans and spreadsheets, and browsing baby things...it sort of makes sense. There’s a deep obsession and tbh, it seems to grow over time.
Heh. I'm curious how it will turn after ten years if I will be lucky to survive that long.

How about men who worked at sperm banks and gamed reproduction replacing other men samples by their own semen. One guy with 2000 progeny. Is this how instinct manifest in the brightest specimens?

Is there equivalent trend for woman?
I'm too lazy to google today. ;p

I’ve never heard of that. That’s disturbing. That doesn’t sound like an instinctual drive to me so much as a fetish. I can’t see why there would be a female equivalent. I don’t have a drive to nurture a thousand babies, for instance. Lol!
 

peoplesuck

is escaping
Local time
Today 5:24 AM
Joined
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Messages
1,688
---
Location
only halfway there
I view breeding as evil since you are basically saying, "yeah i know there are kids without homes but i want one with my blood." I really would like to adopt, because from time spent around kids, I know it will help me heal/fix the thing that makes me kind of cold and distant, teach me to care for something, or more accurately someone. However im not really at the point mentally or financially so im not going to risk fucking up multiple lives. If I get my shit together I would preferably have a little kid farm, so they have each other, it would be great until they hit puberty and the incest started. is it technically incest if they arent related?
The sad thing about kids is most parents dont care enough to educate themselves on how you actually should raise a kid. anyhoo

To avoid the incest on the kid farm, you start sex ed with them early on. Incest usually happens when they’re really young, I believe. Teach kids about the anatomy of teddy bears using child terminology like “wee wee”, so that healthcare professionals can understand what they’re talking about if need be. Obviously, then you can teach them what behavior is appropriate and inappropriate, and when to tattle.
I learned about some child abuse within religious cultures, and the victims said that the major reason they were abused was that they didn’t have any words to discuss or understand the parts of bodies.
I think, also, the more you’re able to make these biological discussions feel normal and safe for kids, the less fear they have when it comes to reporting an incident, and the less shame they feel when they undergo puberty.
I think you can’t really expect there to not be any “show me yours” activity. The trick is to raise a kid that will report that information so you can shut that stuff down with a quickness. Same goes for weird pervey adults. I feel like those instances rarely happen right away. There’s clues early on. Your kid just needs to know how to look for them and tell you.

As for incest in older kids...well by then they should know enough about incest that they should be too ashamed to act on their hormones if they feel attracted to a siblings (The kids will view each other like siblings, so to them, psychologically, it is incest). Education is the key factor - as well as exposure to children in outer society. Educated children who have been properly socialized rarely engage in incest once they’re past the age of 6 or so, I think.
It is probably best just just have two kids. Im not sure how it affects children to be raised with a high child-to-parent ratio. If you do adopt just remember that though you may not need a man, it doesn't mean your child doesn't.

Oh, well in my case, I would only be adopting an older child who said, themselves, that they are interested in a single mom. Older children have a very slim chance of being adopted and orphaned girls have been abused by men. If my plans pan out the way I would like to have a large plot of land and rescue animals. I’m hoping that I might be able to make a substantial difference in an orphan’s life by helping them to build meaningful emotional connections with animals, and teaching them all that I know in my professional trade so they can be a success in the modern world. I really do think that if a child has been abused or neglected, the ability to understand and connect with animals who have also been abused and neglected could really be a healing experience. Just having other creatures who understand you, and rely on you for their welfare...helping in that way heals.
In the child of rage documentary that is how they treated her. She learned to care for animals and understand their needs. Missing a parent has a negative effect what ever they think they want. Im not saying they wont be ok its just not optimal. I like your plans and I hope that you follow through and it works out.
 

washti

yo vengo para lo mío
Local time
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Messages
871
---
I’ve never heard of that. That’s disturbing. That doesn’t sound like an instinctual drive to me so much as a fetish. I can’t see why there would be a female equivalent. I don’t have a drive to nurture a thousand babies, for instance. Lol!
It's common to talk about having children, boiling it down to genes transfer.
If this is the baseline, the man who swapped the sperm samples for hisown is on the winning position, passed on the genes and does not have to bear the costs of raising children (the sperm donor does not have the status of a father, he is even protected by law in the event of a lawsuit by the child's mother).

Actually, man doesn't need to act in unlawful secrecy. It is enough that he has good results and women seeking a donor will gladly use his sperm themselves. This gives you a better chance of increasing your own genes in the population. Several women may be pregnant at the same time.

A woman has fewer options. She can give 10 - 15 eggs at a time. And on average can donate them up to 5 times in life. The procedure is also much more complicated. However, the option exists. Instead of freezing, your genes enter the free market.

In XXI century it seems the smartest way to reproduce. High results, minimal efforts.

Is such a method unnatural? The cuckoos are even more dodgy.
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
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So, I would just like to share some perspectives here, if that's alright.
I thought it would be easier if I just did diagrams. I'm better at diagramming concepts than I am at being a succinct typist.

First thing I wanted to talk about is DNA expression, kind of going along the thought track @Rebis was on.
I learned a while back that my understanding of genetic inheritance was incomplete and outdated. A microbiologist explained to me how and why ancient and ancestral traits manifest in modern DNA. I felt like his examples were really illuminating for me so I thought I would share.

4692


So there's two abstractions of the concept here.
Adam explained that DNA is passed from parents to children in sets or chunks - a grouping of genes. In school, I had learned that genes were sort of "melded together". Ie: If one parent was tall, and the other short, the kid might be genetically in-between the two. Adam explained that this perception is an incorrect way to view DNA.
The tall parent gives the child a set of characteristics, including the gene for "tall" and the short parent does the same. One of those sets will manifest in the DNA, and it will be accompanied by other characteristics that may seem totally unrelated - like having a unibrow.

We see this in cats. Orange tabby cats are usually docile and companionable, whereas calico colored cats have an attitude.

In any case, the first example expressed how a child's DNA makeup is like a computer program that their parents have added functions to. Within the program, there are many, many functions that are not called during execution - dormant genomes. Functions that are called will express the child's active genes at the time of birth, more or less. Other dormant functions may be called later as needed, and potentially in response to such things as environment, the food we eat, microbes, etc. (epi-genetics).

As we continue to breed humans, our programs are added on to. However, old functions are not removed.

So looking at the example on the right, this is an abstraction expressing how genes manifest in the individual, from an inheritance probability standpoint.
Adam explained these "gene sets" as being like dice. Parents add dice to the jar. You shake the jar, and dice are poured out at random. The dice the child gets are the activated genes the child is born with.

However, there's a catch. There's a lot of dice at the bottom that have accumulated throughout the years. Those dice are less likely to come out, because it's harder to shake them up from where they're settled in the bottom of the jar. (Obviously, we're assuming you're not tilting the jar and doing crazy things here). Even so, there's still a chance that an old dice from the bottom might make it into the final pour.

In that case, you end up getting ancient genetic expressions from long-dead ancestors.

It's more complicated than that, obviously, and apparently we still don't know a lot, from a scientific standpoint. DNA testing is helping to reveal more information, but we don't currently have enough participants to really capitalize on the data as we would like to.

But the bottom line, is that your chances of receiving traits from your ancestors are not non-existent, as people tend to think. Furthermore, they're not a "mesh" of ancestral traits, mixed in with a bunch of genes that came after that. They're very much still a "set", and that is why certain humans today can still express Neanderthal traits.

SO! Why do people want their own kids?
Well the chances that the child you receive will have activated genes that you're more likely to relate to, are much higher when the child is biologically your own. Mannerisms, appearances, diseases, and even behavioral tendencies like temper, in the child, are much more likely to be similar to you and your partner. Obviously.
Mammals we relate to are much easier to empathize with, communicate with, and form bonds with. The drive to build strong, loving relationships with the child is instinctual in - I think - both the genders. So it's natural for humans to feel a stronger innate connection to children that are biologically their own.

Disproving the "Stronger Genes" idea

We have, from my perspective, very little, if any evidence to indicate that your sexual selection and passing on your own specific genes yields genetically superior offspring. Here's why I think people believe that, and why I think they're very misguided.
It comes from darwinism and evolutionary biology. The concept is that we breed depending on the traits that are the best, and in doing so, we create superior offspring.

If that were the case, we should all be much more intelligent, beautiful, and physically superior than we are today, shouldn't we? None of the "then vs. now" data I've seen has a compelling connection to genes (ie: nature), over environment/nurture.

You see this in plants. Go for a walk. How have the new dandelions progressed since when you were a kid. What differences do you see? They are very prolific.
You see this in foxes. How far back do you have to go before you can point out an ancestor of the red fox that is inferior to the modern red fox we have today?

Here's the issue with genetic cleansing, genetic strengthening, and such. Genes come in sets. You can add new sets to the function, but if you do, older sets get shut off. If you breed with someone that has similar characteristics to your own, you're likely to also breed stronger tendencies for negative qualities, like diseases. That is why purebred dogs are less healthy than mutts, and that is why eugenics was dumb. Which the Germans knew, from their experiments with zoo animals...but ignored, for some reason. (I think scientists were afraid of the regime.)

As a last example, lets consider cats, because their colors make their genetics easier to understand. Cats can have different coats, their coat colors can indicate their sex (calicos are almost always female, orange tabbies are almost always male), and their coats can also indicate their temperament. Just like humans have races, cats have coat colors. Even so - a cat, is a cat, is a cat. A calico cat isn't exactly superior to an orange tabby. Abyssianian cats are extremely intelligent due to selective breeding, but with that, they also come with higher risks of negative genetic manifestations, of course.

To close off this "genes" point....
I don't actually believe that men are driven by a desire to "pass along their genes". I think that's a figment of scientists' imaginations. Evolutionary biology has a habit of wanting to explain every human behavior and characteristic, and I feel that it often misses the mark. A lot of aspects of darwinism have come into question. The "evolution" of genes was much more random than we ever realized - potentially much more determined by random mutation, than actual sexual selection.
If the primary motivation of the male was to pass along their genes, we wouldn't be a monogamous species. Yet, historically speaking, we have almost always had a monogamous construct in society. The reason for that is that humans have uniquely vulnerable offspring that take a very long time to mature. A human female cannot handle this burden unsupported by the male. Yet if the male's sole ambition is to pass along his genes, it behooves him to abandon said female to mate with as many females as possible, because even if the first offspring dies, his chances of having a high degree of breeding success are greater with more partners.

No, I think that the strength of the sexual drive is probably a side effect of necessary testosterone and primitive inheritance - simple side effects are common in genetics, apparently - and the primary motivation to breed with females is related to the much more modern, much more evolved need for a male to feel a sense of social acceptance and belonging. That is why men who do not receive the approval of women express such anger, frustration, etc. They will express similar psychological symptoms when deprived of the approval of men, or their parents. It's a deep need for social belonging.

A human can go its whole life and never have a sexual partner.
Take that same human and put them in social isolation, and they will go mad.
Take a baby, and give it all of its physical needs, and no human affection, and it will die. (Horrible study about orphans in, I think, Russia. I don't recommend it.)

The desire for approval and acceptance is much stronger than that of the desire to procreate. That is why human males are capable of being faithful to one female, and that is why our offspring, despite being completely helpless for the first 3 years of its life, or so, is able to thrive.
 

Inexorable Username

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This point is just about adopted children.

There's a lot of talk about "good and evil" going on here. I'd like to address that. Hopefully, no one will take what I have to say the wrong way. (Remember - I want to adopt, myself!)

I have another little diagram here. I like infographics - they're better for expressing ideas...and they're just a more interesting way to deliver content. Plus! I get to label them and keep them on my computer, and review my thoughts quickly and easily at a later date! It also forces me to be...uhmm...more succinct. (Sorry people. I know I suck sometimes!)

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I've looked into this topic quite a lot, myself. I definitely want to adopt, because I believe that I can handle it. However, I don't think most people can say that. One unfortunate thing I see is that many well-meaning people feel lonely, isolated, or disturbed, and it gives them a drive to "rescue". I love this instinct in humans.
Unfortunately, it's not in the best interest of the adopted child. Adopted children, are, frankly, damaged. Verrryyy damaged. It is my understanding that there is nothing you will ever do, or say, that can "cure" this person. Their needs are expensive, and their needs are many. They require an extensive amount of money, and much, much more of your time than a biological child. They often struggle to thrive as adults, BUT, when nurtured, and given the chance, they can develop into truly amazing people with an extremely heightened sense of empathy and a desire to help others who have suffered as they have suffered.

The orphaned child often has genetic and biological expressions that can be difficult to cope with. In some sad situations, parents struggle to "connect" emotionally with the adopted child. The challenges that the child presents - behavioral issues, psychological disorders/disabilities, impairments in learning, IQ, etc., can overwhelm a person. Orphaned children often have attachment disorders, leading to difficulties in communication, bond-building, socialization, and more.

Taking a look at the biological child, you start with a clean slate. You also start with hormones that you have been producing during pregnancy that will see you through the child's early development by helping you to "fall in love" with this extremely needy creature. Biological children have a higher chance of success later in life. They have a higher chance of attaining jobs which move society forward, or facilitate society on the high level - doctors and the like. They require far less experience as a parental figure (you grow and learn with your child, essentially), and they require less in the resources department (time, energy, money).

Taking a look at the morality of the issue...

We do have an overpopulation problem right now, and there are many, many orphaned children that need homes...I know "orphan" is outdated, but it's just easier to use this term atm..."orphanages" will help adoptive parents to tackle the issues surrounding their new, troubled children. Obviously it can, and is done, and if you have the money, resources, time, and experience, your adoptive child can be one of the children that really excel in life.

If nobody adopted children, we would have an overflow of orphaned children that would live out terrible, terrible lives, and could also be a burden on a society's social resources.

However, as I said - not everyone is cut out for adopting kids. Despite the fact that we're overpopulated, and there are many kids that need loving families, we can't just "ditch society" for the sake of the orphans. If we did, the orphans wouldn't have a world to grow into. There is often a deficit of workforce in high paying jobs, and we need more qualified, educated individuals to help maintain order in our society. Also, creating more workers that attain high-level jobs increases upward mobility in society, which decreases the percentage of the working poor, and decreases the number of children who are surrendered to the state. Since the wealthy breed less, increasing upward mobility can also decrease population, over time.

So what's my moral stance?

I think it depends on who you are. If you are a well-to-do family and you're happily married, I think it's almost a moral obligation for you to produce at least one biological child. Without these offspring, our system falls apart.
If you're like me, and you're an independent person who has heavily researched sociology, psychology, and child development, and you chose your career over a family and producing biological children...well the most morally appropriate course of action is to take on a child who has indicated that they would like a single parent home, and help that child build a successful, loving life.

Morality and Compassion

Too often, these days, I see people confusing compassion for morality. Having a compassionate stance does not make you morally justified. Compassion should never be shut out, ignored, or thrown aside for the sake of "truth and facts" - it's essential to us as humans, and incredibly important, and relevant in the quest for truth. That being said, the end decision as to what is, and what isn't moral, should be an analytical, well-reasoned argument that takes empathy into account.

It's not morally right to say that all people should adopt. Most people are ill-suited for it. The children would suffer, and by being adopted by an ill-suited parent, they are also being deprived of the chance to be adopted by a parent who would have been more appropriate. In law, you can be held criminally negligent for helping someone. If you pull over to the side of the road and tell someone who is dying that you're going to help them, but then you decide you don't know what you're doing and you drive away, you could be held criminally negligent. That is because, by being there, appearing to help the person, you've dissuaded other passerbys from stopping to help.

It is also not morally sensible to say that we should just abandon the concept of biological children, entirely. As fewer and fewer couples in the upper classes have biological children, the percentage people in lower classes increases by comparison. The people in lower classes are economically dependent upon people in higher classes. So by failing to have a child as a couple in a higher-class marriage, you are depriving the nation of the financial stability needed to provide care to the working poor, you are decreasing the number of people eligible for high-level jobs (statistically speaking), and you are decreasing upward mobility. In fact, despite the fact that we DO have upward mobility, part of the reason that we have such poor upward mobility in the USA is probably due to the fact that higher class families are choosing to have less children now than they used to.

The compassionately obvious answer is seldom the answer that is most morally sensible. I encounter this issue a lot in working with non-profits. People want to help, and they get really rabid and aggressive and self-righteous about how they believe they should help. In actuality, a lot of times, their behavior actually makes the issue worse. So, my stance on morality and compassion is that compassion is a necessary tool, and also a very dangerous leader. Morality should be the product of analytical reasoning, and whenever possible, facts, and logic, always with regards to compassion.
 

Minuend

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As for discussion in thread, ask yourself this: how would the perfect world be (according to you) for a kid to grow up be like? How different is that to how things are now?

How would my kid have to be like to thrive in this world and have a good life? How probable is it my kid will be that way? Are the traits to thrive in this world pretty much a given to where most children would, or would my child have to be very atypical to be able to enjoy the world and enjoy existing?

As for adopting or fostering, those are generally more valid choices. Being able to go through the emotional toll of fostering is probably superior to most things. If you're able to care for a child that smears feces on the wall, well, you're the closest thing to a saint our world will have. Fostering can only be a mistake if done for ego boosting, economic gains or so.
 
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