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Global Warming believers - make your case for catastrophe

Janus

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yea and again if you could actually read you'd see that i said the "burden of proof" saying is childish. never once did the word logic come into play there. so you are wrong here, i am not complaining that logic is childish.

The word "logic" doesn't have to be directly stated for it to apply.

Again, read the article I linked, it makes a clear logical case for why the burden of proof must lie with the person making the claim.

I do not think we are going to see eye-to-eye on this subject though.


unfortunately for you your wrong here as well. well, your half wrong. you are correct in thinking its something a logician would say, if the logician was in a philosophical argument. this however is not the case. this is not a philosophical argument.

I was sort-of agreeing with you, just because you were technically right, until you started with the "it is not a philosophical argument."

The burner-of-proof principle that I stated applies to all arguments. It has nothing do with the branch of philosophy (if that is what you are stating).

Again, go to the source:

Michalos, Alex (1969). Principles of Logic. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice-Hall. p. 370. "usually one who makes an assertion must assume the responsibility of defending it. If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed."
this is just an argument about global warming, something that is currently happening. so yes, saying the "burden of proof..." saying in a non philosophical argument IS something only an extravert would say (i say this because i dont see why an introvert would say it when they could just tell you why and be done with it).

This doesn't make any sense at all to me. I don't understand what I/E has to do with this. And I am not an extravert in any sense of the word, so whatever your argument may be, it is certainly false.


also dont bring religion into this.


Too late - this deals with environmentalist religious beliefs.

by the way theists make up most of the world and their beliefs are widely accepted as right all around the world.

Argumentum ad populum and irrelevant. I don't care if religious beliefs are accepted or not. That is the same logical fallacy often used by global warming believers though.

its the theists saying the "burden of proof..." to the atheists because the atheists are making the claim that the theists are wrong.

Incorrect, some moronic theists have attempted to copy atheists incorrectly to misapply the principle, but this is largely a strategy correctly used by atheists in arguments.

im not saying logic is ONLY an introvert thing, im saying introverts hold logic dear (as in they follow logic like a moth to a flame)

So you think an INFP is going to be more logical than an ENTJ?

why are you posting a graph made in 2001 about atmospheric CO2 and Avg. global temps for 1 million+ years ago as evidence for global warming thats happening right now

Because:

1. It is one of the most widely used datasets on the subect.
2. I wanted to show that life thrived under higher levels of carbon dioxide.

I honestly could care less what it says about the temperatures. It is mainly good evidence against "ocean acidification."
 

Janus

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In case you haven't gotten a clue let me give you one, you've been given a warning by the forum admin, yes, the clapping one. :)

Ah so you come in here, clap at post calling me a "daft plank" and then you whine that I hurt your feelings?

Maybe you should take a hike from this thread since you clearly aren't capable of being impartial on this subject.
 

Lacplesis

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Hey, can someone shut this clown up? I would sooo appreciate not having this troll around. Starting to think he has some sort of issues he is clearly unable to handle therefore he comes here to ''argue for the sake of arguing''. Clearly he had that in mind as he so beautifully put it in one of his previous posts.
 

Janus

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Which is that warming of regions is very real at high latitudes (most notably permafrost regions)

Well that's obvious if you understand the science. The greenhouse gas effect is essentially "saturated" over most of the earth due to the presence of water vapor.

In places like the poles, with very little water vapor, carbon dioxide will have a much stronger effect. This would obviously be a good thing since the warming will occur mostly in the colder areas - warming up vast tracts of land for productive use.

Quite necessary if we want to feed a growing population (carbon dioxide has always increased crop outputs as well).

which can melt ice and release methane gas. Methane that has roughly 20x the atmospheric warming effect than CO2.
And methane breaks down very quickly in the atmosphere into carbon dioxide - not a worry at all.

Also, here's another study by RA Berner et al. 3 years later -which collaborates further on the effect of CO2 induced global warming and states directly that CO2 is strongly related to polar temperature flux, and that whether as a direct candidate or simply an amplifier, CO2 has had a large effect on climate temperatures.
Yes they are strongly correlated - because warmer oceans can hold less carbon dioxide (among other factors). Higher resolution data shows that carbon dioxide levels follow a rise in temperature after a few centuries.

The argument of global warming alarmists is that the CO2 then "amplifies" the warming. Of course, there is no way to really tell how much of an amplification occurs since it is pure conjecture and there are obviously other processes going on that started the heating to begin with.

You've taken genuine scientific discourse by Berner (in which his study actually confirmed that CO2 prediction modelling was accurate where it mattered most - there was simply the possibility of inaccuracy in certain areas) and data-mined it for the purpose of furthering your own agenda. Nothing you're saying here is legitimately supported by the data in the paper you're citing. It's entirely your interpretation.
Oh please, I only showed his data to demonstrate that "ocean acidification" isn't going to be a problem.

That wasn't an invitation to bring up every study done by a single scientist that supports a claim I haven't seen made yet - that global warming will be a catastrophe.


I'm sorry, but the only thing that ever has and ever will give anything scientific credibility is falsifiable method that leads to reproducible results.
Fantastic, perhaps we can make some progress here.

Produce the "falsifiable method that leads to reproducible results" that shows global warming will be catastrophic.

Do that and this conversation ends - or you can just admit that alarmist claims aren't scientific at all.
 

Janus

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Hey, can someone shut this clown up? I would sooo appreciate not having this troll around. Starting to think he has some sort of issues he is clearly unable to handle therefore he comes here to ''argue for the sake of arguing''. Clearly he had that in mind as he so beautifully put it in one of his previous posts.

The problem you have here is that every time one you guys have put a toe in the water of science I've demonstrated that you guys don't even know basic scientific facts.

This is understandably quite embarrassing to you since none of you can defend your position with facts.

And as I predicted earlier - you will lash out at me emotionally since you can't do so intellectually.
 

Lacplesis

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The problem you have here is that every time one you guys have put a toe in the water of science I've demonstrated that you guys don't even know basic scientific facts.

This is understandably quite embarrassing to you since none of you can defend your position with facts.

And as I predicted earlier - you will lash out at me emotionally since you can't do so intellectually.

Ow please! This is not about the global warming anymore, and never even was. Objectively, you are just seeking some sort of emotional satisfaction for your actions (falsely stating that global warming is not only a problem, it is an opportunity for further human expansion (by the way, it is, look at Shell and Gasprom drilling in Arctic, but that is not the point, really)). Either warming is or is not a catastrophie is irrelevant for you. You're just another Troll to me, no more.
 

Cherry Cola

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Ow please! This is not about the global warming anymore, and never even was. Objectively, you are just seeking some sort of emotional satisfaction for your actions (falsely stating that global warming is not only a problem, it is an opportunity for further human expansion (by the way, it is, look at Shell and Gasprom drilling in Arctic, but that is not the point, really)). Either warming is or is not a catastrophie is irrelevant for you. You're just another Troll to me, no more.

This is da truth. I like Architexts reply after some dude asked him bout climate change.

why do some people (conservatives) care so deeply that we didn't cause it?
 

Brontosaurie

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Sorry, Ne cannot clearly determine who are you (Mr. Brontosaurie) referring to. It would not be logical however, to assume that I am invited to leave.

why are you ignoring my quote and calling me "Mr"?

why wouldn't that be logical? you're whining about people arguing on an INTP forum.
 

Cherry Cola

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its like baps reply to jenny about gods love "we cannot know cuz god is god therefore assume end of discuss"
 
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The problem you have here is that every time one you guys have put a toe in the water of science I've demonstrated that you guys don't even know basic scientific facts.
winning-charlie-sheen-sweatshirts_design.png

why are you ignoring my quote and calling me "Mr"?
Ms.? :D
 

pernoctator

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The problem you have here is that every time one you guys have put a toe in the water of science I've demonstrated that you guys don't even know basic scientific facts.

This is understandably quite embarrassing to you since none of you can defend your position with facts.

And as I predicted earlier - you will lash out at me emotionally since you can't do so intellectually.

This post sums up your problem through this whole thread.

- You're replying to someone who's barely made one other post, in a manner appropriate for someone you've had extended discussion with.

- You ascribe emotional "lashing out" to someone describing your own emotional state.

- Most of the "you"s in this post are plural.

You've been emotionally driven from the start, and constructing your own imaginary foe to lash out at. It's you versus the evil empire of religiously fanatical environmentalist fiends, a monolithic entity with a singular viewpoint of which we are all automatically a part by virtue of having posted and not taken you seriously.
 

Cherry Cola

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he battles as if though fighting a dragon all the while claiming it a hamster, something is amiss indeed
 

Janus

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No, it's not. The primary argument is the danger of unforeseen change.

The argument is against "unforeseen change" - well that's rather stupid now isn't it? Quite a fun way to attempt to live life - you are basically arguing for the precautionary principle.

CO2 is pumped into greenhouses to compensate for the increased photosynthetic demand caused by the greenhouse effect. It doesn't create that photosynthetic demand. You have causality issues.
No, carbon dioxide is pumped into greenhouses to increase productivity. You appear to be making things up (again).


You've done nothing to counter my claims, nor will you. $20
I don't need to counter logical fallacies - I just need to point them out.

Whoops.

Your strawman does nothing to rectify your error of citing only CO2. My point is that everything is standardized to CO2 when it's quantified, which is something that's often taken advantage of by misinformation artists.
So that's your comeback to me pointing out that you didn't even know that water vapor is the most common greenhouse gas?

It isn't even like it is close. You were grossly incorrect on this.

You need to build some credibility because you have none at this point.

So you admit to citing the wrong source?
I have. The context is substantially different, and the data was severely cherry-picked. Anything that disagrees with you is irrelevant to you.
There are no significant problems with the data. As I said before, if you think my claim about carbon dioxide levels being much higher for most of the history of life on this planet is incorrect then feel free to show data that contradicts that claim.

Until then you are just yapping at irrelevant details in order to distract from the larger point.

Didn't I just say the source? You can't look up Mann's hockey stick? It is all over the internet:

Manns-hockey-stick.gif



As you can see, the grey shows the uncertainty. The red line at the end actually uses a different data set. He basically combined two datasets to get the scare-looking picture - because the proxy data doesn't show that spike at the end.

I think you either misunderstand uncertainty or my understanding of uncertainty.
That may be so. I guess I'll find out now if you want to give your opinion on Mann's famous hockeystick graph that some lay-people find so compelling. Of course, they typically take out the uncertainty and the labeling of the instrumental data when trying to sell this pile of manure.

You missed/ignored the point there too. No surprise.
Your "point" was irrelevant cherry-picking.

Yes, look at the data Devonian and afterward. Right now. CO2 levels and temperatures dropped. And then they rose. And when they rose, the end-Permian mass extinction took place. All that life that had "evolved under high CO2 conditions?" *poof* The rise of vascular plants produced a climatic paradigm shift.
1. Not all that life went extinct
2. The life that evolved after that also evolved under high levels of carbon dioxide

Thus - your "point" is irrelevant cherry-picking.

The Siberian Traps are on my side of this debate, mandingo.
If carbon dioxide alone causes mass extinctions then life wouldn't exist. That's why you are cherry-picking.

There are numerous events that could cause planet-wide extinctions and increase carbon dioxide - supervolcano eruptions, meteor strikes into the ocean (release stored CO2 in the unmixed colder depths), etc.

An adult questions inconsistencies. Multiple authors are cited as "Author#1 et al." Someone needs to learn how to properly cite, especially if they live anywhere near Global Temperature Avenue. Denial is the first step to recovery. It's okay.
Perhaps you should join an ST board. They might find such nitpicking interesting.

I don't.

1. You're ignoring everything I wrote. I think this is because you don't comprehend it.
That's right, I try to ignore irrelevancies.

Maybe you should work on being more relevant.

2. The Amazon isn't either. A line is infinitely small. :rolleyes:
Oh wow, you got me there. Send that gem over to whatever ST board you decide to grace with such brilliance.

Then again, I'm not the one who asserted that the requisite aspect of causality was rooted in latitude.
And neither did I.

That's another straw man on your part.

3. You should be applying what I wrote to the carbon cycle. And no, CO2 is not a macronutrient. Nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium are your biggies. They're far from homogenously distributed, and without them you'd have a cesspool of bacteria. Though perhaps not even a cesspool, as moisture is also far from homogenously distributed.
Oh goodie! You are making another scientific claim! Anyone care to take bets on his accuracy? Keep in mind his dismal track record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient

The chemical elements consumed in the greatest quantities by plants are carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. These are present in the environment in the form of water and carbon dioxide; energy is provided by sunlight.[7] Nitrogen, phosphorus, and sulfur are also needed in relatively large quantities. Together, the "Big Six" are the elemental macronutrients for all organisms,[8] often represented by the acronym CHNOPS.[9]


Wow, so it looks like carbon dioxide, a compound necessary for photosynthesis, is actually a macro-nutrient. What a shocker!

I also see that you've reversed the causality in the C4 photosynthetic cycle with "reducing plants' need for water (carbon dioxide)." Nice try. Not really.
If you actually knew anything about the subject then you wouldn't once again make a fool out of yourself.

Increased carbon dioxide levels reduce the need for water because it reduces water loss.

Plants open their stomata to absorb CO2, but in the process water is lost through transpiration. At higher levels of CO2 they don't need to keep their stomata open as much

So yeah, I expect some more irrelevant response from you because you are incapable of thanking me for repeatedly educating you about basic science.


That would have actually been useful had anyone in the thread actually made such claims.
Perhaps someone should step up and make the claim that global warming will be a catastrophe. Until then I can only argue against claims that are commonly made.

I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to put yourself out there though - you haven't had a great track record so far.

No it's not. You specifically cited acidification and claimed it wasn't a problem.
Actually I was talking about rising oceans in that part of the post.

But really, I like this "he said, she said" stuff - really riveting. I'm quite impressed.

The data in the article I linked which you haven't refuted.
Ha! Well if that's your argument then my counter-response is "my data on the internet which you haven't refuted."

Make a specific claim, cite specific data or GTFO.

I'm not going to debate random links you googled and which you probably don't understand.

Most of that history was before the evolution of calcium carbonate exoskeletons became meaningful and produced a tangible driving effect in the Jurassic.
And as you can see, carbon dioxide levels were much higher during and after the Jurassic than they are now.

So do biodiversity and productivity. And ZOMG! They're correlated to pH!
Prove it.

And after that, prove such a correlation isn't related to something more important like temperature differences.

Systemic trophic cascade leads to a systemic extinction vortex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_intimidation

Sorry, that might work if you haven't repeatedly be shown to be wrong on fundamental scientific facts.

No, I said I don't like data with unnecessarily large uncertainty as a result of a lack of triangulation.
Meaning what exactly?

Huge uncertainty is okay with you if other massively uncertain data agrees with it?

Sounds like an ad hoc excuse on your part to believe shit data.

Their methods and data sources were cited. Hop to it.
The funny thing I actually know how they did that shit. You are the one who should be hopping to it.

Here are some tips for you:

1. They looked at a few fossils and tried to infer the ancient pH levels from them
2. They say they can do it within a tenth of a point on the pH scale

Of course, like Mann's hockey stick this has huge uncertainties involved with it and known problems they can't explain (e.g. divergence problem), but whatever, you said uncertain data is okay with you if other uncertain data agrees with it.

Fantastic fucking science right there.

It's extinct.
In other words, you can't prove your claim.

Thanks for playing.

This response would be great if I actually made that claim.
Actually you did make that claim. Amusingly you want to simultaneously say you can't prove it but that it wasnt' your claim to begin with, which begs the question of why you said, "And too bad the physiology of the life isn't largely still in place..."

You implied that it was a recent evolutionary development.
It IS a recent evolutionary development. They only evolved a few million years ago.

Good lord can you get anything fucking right?

They utilize CO2 without concurrent light input at night when moisture is favorable. It makes them more efficient at utilizing CO2, not visa versa. It's not hard.
You are wrong again. C4 plants are metabolically much more inefficient than C3 plants. They use far more energy than their older counterparts. You'd know this if you bothered to read the article.

They use the CO2 at night because if they did it during the day they'd lose too much moisture because the CO2 levels are too low to make it worthwhile.

Amusingly enough I had to point this out to you earlier when you laughed at my claim that higher carbon dioxide levels reduce the need for water among plants.

They would've never evolved without low levels of CO2 - and they didn't. For hundreds of millions of years they never showed up - until just a few million years ago after most of the CO2 was sequestered into fossil fuels and limestone.

Nitrate fertilizers produced from fossil fuels aren't a prerequisite for agriculture.
Just the modern agriculture system that feeds an extra billion people with less land.

Alternative sources and methods are available.
None of which can meet our needs.


God, you're one of those... :rolleyes:
Yep, I'm one of those people that uses facts and logic to create my belief system rather than warping my facts and logic around my beliefs.


Because fossil fuels are totally renewable, amirite? Those evil environmentalist bastards! Cutting off our endless supply of oil!
We have centuries of fossil fuels left.

Just because something isn't "renewable" doesn't mean it should be banned.

And you are really starting to bore me. Not sure if I'll be responding to you in the future and if I do I'll have to ignore you constant barrage of fallacies and irrelevancies.
 

Janus

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Ow please! This is not about the global warming anymore, and never even was. Objectively, you are just seeking some sort of emotional satisfaction for your actions

Ah a mind-reader! How fantastic!

(falsely stating that global warming is not only a problem

And if you believe that then you should've made your case.

You didn't - in fact, I showed you didn't know what you were talking about.

And that's why you shifted to this line of attack against me (mind-reading and what-not).
 

Janus

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why do some people (conservatives) care so deeply that we didn't cause it?

Who said that?

I flat out said that I think humans are causing some warming due to our release of carbon dioxide.

But to turn that statement back to you:

Why do some people (liberals) care so deeply that humans are the source of all problems?
 

Janus

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This post sums up your problem through this whole thread.

- You're replying to someone who's barely made one other post, in a manner appropriate for someone you've had extended discussion with.

- You ascribe emotional "lashing out" to someone describing your own emotional state.

- Most of the "you"s in this post are plural.

You've been emotionally driven from the start, and constructing your own imaginary foe to lash out at. It's you versus the evil empire of religiously fanatical environmentalist fiends, a monolithic entity with a singular viewpoint of which we are all automatically a part by virtue of having posted and not taken you seriously.

And none of your oh-so-interesting psychological analysis addresses the fact that nearly every time one of them has made a solid statement of "fact" it has been shown to be completely wrong.

This is an issue of credibility; they've repeatedly said stupid things like "carbon dioxide is the most common greenhouse gas" and "C4 plants didn't evolve recently and they have nothing to do with carbon dioxide."

These sorts of things are clearly wrong, I showed they were wrong, and it shows they are talking out of their ass.

Which begs the question - why do you assume I'm "emotionally driven" when I've been far more accurate in my statements?

Usually it is the emotional making more mistakes and if that isn't the case here then what would it matter if I was emotional or not?
 

Coolydudey

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This thread has been the best read in a loooong time... Please keep this guy here.

That said, I am on your side bro. I'd rather global warming didn't exist, but I believe a) it's not as big of a problem as people say it is. b) it's not as big of a problem as they think it is.
 

Cherry Cola

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Who said that?

I flat out said that I think humans are causing some warming due to our release of carbon dioxide.

But to turn that statement back to you:

Why do some people (liberals) care so deeply that humans are the source of all problems?

Well unlike conservatives who are obsessed with seeing humans as good liberals see them as bad but changeable with the right mindset. Of course both are wrong.

In any case I admire your rational-spirit and my ad homs are in fact just there because I cba to read through all the text and reply properly (not ironic here) :P
 

pernoctator

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And none of your oh-so-interesting psychological analysis addresses the fact that nearly every time one of them has made a solid statement of "fact" it has been shown to be completely wrong.

I didn't set out to address anything other than what I addressed. :)
 

redbaron

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Okay, how about you define what constitutes a catastrophe first.

Because I'd say that rising sea levels as a result of melting of polar ice caps (I use this example, since you've agreed on this), causing the devastation of various coastal communities and the displacement of millions of people is one. So when you say that it's a good thing for the polar regions to melt, it makes me think that the reason you don't think there will be a catastrophe is more to do with a matter of defining what is catastrophic.

If you're looking for someone to claim some globalised, super-catastrophe whereby anthropogenic warming is the lone cause, obviously no one is going to make a case for that.
 

Jennywocky

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I don't know nothin' about no global warmin'. All I know is, I live in Texas and Texas is hot. as. hell.

Considering how dry it's gotten down there at times, maybe a little water spilling into the flat lands would do you guys some good. :D

EDIT: Wait. Salt water. Hmmm... not good.
 

Janus

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I didn't set out to address anything other than what I addressed. :)

Well you accused me of being over-emotional when the evidence shows the people I'm arguing against aren't getting their facts right - which is typical of emotionally-driven thinking (of course everyone makes mistakes - but there is a pattern here).
 

redbaron

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aren't getting their facts right - which is typical of emotionally-driven thinking

If that's the case, you must be really worked up!
 

Janus

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Okay, how about you define what constitutes a catastrophe first.

It is obviously a bit subjective.

Use your definition and let's see what we can agree on.

Because I'd say that rising sea levels as a result of melting of polar ice caps (I use this example, since you've agreed on this)
Not exactly, I do agree that the oceans have been (on average) increasing over the last 18,000 years, but it isn't merely from the melting of polar ice - it is also due to thermal expansion.

causing the devastation of various coastal communities and the displacement of millions of people is one.
So what is your proof of this?

The sea level rose about a foot over the last century - didn't see much catastrophe.

So when you say that it's a good thing for the polar regions to melt, it makes me think that the reason you don't think there will be a catastrophe is more to do with a matter of defining what is catastrophic.
Well, let's be a bit clear on this, the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets are enormously thick and aren't going to going anywhere for a long time.

Sea ice in the arctic basically irrelevant when it comes to determining sea levels.

The benefit comes mainly from warming up areas that are now far too cold for productive agricultural use. The other benefits are more world wide due to CO2 fertilization - increased crop yields and the general greening of the biosphere (including the Sahara turning green again).

If you're looking for someone to claim some globalised, super-catastrophe whereby anthropogenic warming is the lone cause, obviously no one is going to make a case for that.
Perhaps nobody here, but many people say it will destroy the planet/human race/etc.

They make stupid comparisons to Venus and what-not.
 

crippli

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This may be as good place as any to test this idea.

I've long speculated that humans are merely more than ants. Helpless to do anything else then what earth want them to do. For the moment that is to bring fossil fuel up from the ground. And carbon into the atmosphere. As to why we need to do this, I don't know. I can think of a need to produce more biomass as a plausible explanation. One thing I am certain of, is that this is a train that cannot be stopped. Humans will be exterminated once there is no longer any use for them. But for now, there is work to do. As for the planets needs, those are tied to the sun, and further as a process in the greater interstellar forces.

Human emotion is produced by chemicals. These chemicals are produced by stimuli. In other words. Humans are slaves. As any other species. There is no changing what will happen. Unless the needs of the planet changes.

So I wouldn't know about the details, but I would be surprised if I got the larger picture wrong? Comments? I see my idea isn't on full crash course with what Janus proposes. Although. I must look into on the claims 'it's gonna be great'. *sets out to read the counter arguments*.
 

pernoctator

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Well you accused me of being over-emotional when the evidence shows the people I'm arguing against aren't getting their facts right - which is typical of emotionally-driven thinking (of course everyone makes mistakes - but there is a pattern here).

I guess I wasn't clear: I wasn't addressing who has the facts, and that has no effect on what I did address.

Most of "the people you're arguing against" are constructed.

Also, :applause:
 

Janus

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I guess I wasn't clear: I wasn't addressing who has the facts, and that has no effect on what I did address.

Most of "the people you're arguing against" are constructed.

Also, :applause:

Well if you don't care to discuss the facts then I don't care to discuss anything else with you right now.
 

pernoctator

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Well if you don't care to discuss the facts then I don't care to discuss anything else with you right now.

Of course, but you aren't here for a discussion at all, are you? You're here for an outlet. The entirety of your posts here exists in this thread, yet even the first post belongs in the middle of a discussion. What brought it on, I wonder? Was a discussion elsewhere cut short and you didn't want to let the retorts you had in reserve go to waste, perhaps?

You could start at the beginning: First, explicitly, what is a "global warming believer"? Then, find someone who fits the definition, and begin an appropriate discussion.

Or, you can just continue your holy war.
 

Lacplesis

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This may be as good place as any to test this idea.

I've long speculated that humans are merely more than ants. Helpless to do anything else then what earth want them to do. For the moment that is to bring fossil fuel up from the ground. And carbon into the atmosphere. As to why we need to do this, I don't know. I can think of a need to produce more biomass as a plausible explanation. One thing I am certain of, is that this is a train that cannot be stopped. Humans will be exterminated once there is no longer any use for them. But for now, there is work to do. As for the planets needs, those are tied to the sun, and further as a process in the greater interstellar forces.

Human emotion is produced by chemicals. These chemicals are produced by stimuli. In other words. Humans are slaves. As any other species. There is no changing what will happen. Unless the needs of the planet changes.

So I wouldn't know about the details, but I would be surprised if I got the larger picture wrong? Comments? I see my idea isn't on full crash course with what Janus proposes. Although. I must look into on the claims 'it's gonna be great'. *sets out to read the counter arguments*.

Ok, I will set out to give my opinion on this. What I think will be subjective, of course. Firstly there is a thing about the free will. Your theory directly implies that humans do not have a free will, and this is interesting in itself, but is hard to prove. Earth is complex, I am no geologist or planetologist, but the processes beneath our feet must be immensely complex. However to assign them a possibility of having a will is a fairly bold assumption. If, however earth possess a kind of will to increase co2 levels in atmosphere for whatever reason, wouldn't a major volcanic eruption be a more readily available mean of achieving this? You speculate about biomass as the most possible target for whatever mechanism that is altering the composition of atmosphere. :confused: I think it is more the thing about diversity and adaptation, advancement if you will, if we are to consider the potential number one target for life as we know it.

Then you say that humans will go extinct or be purposefully ''exterminated''. Certainly, most things don't last forever, but there is a catch too. We are civilization, not separate individuals, we, as a whole are acting like a colony. And deep in our subconsciousness we feel that the colony must survive, not separate individuals, or even Earth. Are you familiar with Kardashev scale? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale If we can give this scale any value, your theory as Earth being a direct controller of our actions falls apart. Your theory could however stay intact if you exchanged Earth as a planet for Life in general as we know it. Then it suddenly makes sense: every creature is driven to live, by whatever means, it is something incredibly profound. But as far as we know, there is not a unified will to control or enslave humans or any other life form, your argument that life is based on chemical reactions is correct, but so what?

About the unified will that controls actions of every or most of the living organisms: Currently, it cannot be proved, but we can however speculate that if the string theory is correct, and there indeed is 11 or so dimensions, sparticles and other things to make up dark matter and energy, then surely, some complex system or will could emerge in this immensely complex world. It could be right here, and we would never notice its presence. It could have powers over us and a schedule for us to fulfill. But this sounds crazy. Basically it is a long way to say that we really do not know.
 

Cavallier

Oh damn.
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@Janus You have to earn the right to be a combatative jackass around here.

I have temp banned Janus for 7 days to cool his heels.
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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This thread has been the best read in a loooong time... Please keep this guy here.

That said, I am on your side bro. I'd rather global warming didn't exist, but I believe a) it's not as big of a problem as people say it is. b) it's not as big of a problem as they think it is.

Agreed.

Here's a related George Carlin video to lighten people up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0aFPXr4n4

@Janus

You're probably pissed as shit at the mod(s) and others but please don't abandon this forum after your ban expires. We (I) need more people like you on here.
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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Looool

Yes. The forum needs more people attributing imaginary lines of reasoning to other people, and quote-mining scientific studies out of their original context in order to further their agenda against said imaginary arguments. That definitely doesn't happen enough!

Brontosaurie going full retard again in:
3...
2...
1...

Too be honest, I skimmed the thing so I didn't catch all of what he said but it did seem like you all got angry for no reason. It's unlike your usual behavior on here. At least he was trying to be objective about it while everyone else... I don't even know.
 

redbaron

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Too be honest, I skimmed the thing so I didn't catch all of what he said but it did seem like you all got angry for no reason. It's unlike your usual behavior on here. At least he was trying to be objective about it while everyone else... I don't even know.

You can read the whole thing if you want, but I can summarise it for you.

- basing the entirety of his arguments on one source
- misrepresenting scientific data to support his claims by removing it from its intended context
- immediate assumption that his reasoning is not prone to error

Essentially there's no real scientific basis for what he is saying. There are a few loosely correlated things that loosely support parts of his claim, but this is really no more than claims of a catastrophe.

All I can say is that in terms of scientific plausibility, there's nothing worth refuting yet. No matter how well you can rationalize the findings of one study, it will always be one study. If he can collaborate a dozen or so studies with the same findings I'll make the effort to discuss the matter with him.
 

Thurlor

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I've read the whole thread and I have to say I can't really understand the need to have temp banned Janus. Sure, he may have been a bit adversarial but he's not the first to have been so. Besides, this feels to much like ganging up on the new guy. Having said all of that I'm in no position to make formal decisions here and I hope my support of Janus doesn't land me in ill-favour.

In regards to the arguments that he(?) was making I think we need to take into account that not everybody views damage to the environment as a bad thing if it benefits humans. Besides, as has already been mentioned at least he was being rational (or so it seemed to me) and not emotional. He is right in one thing at the very least; a lot of environmentalists won't consider any information that may not point toward humanocentric environmental change. Surely such an approach is inherently flawed.

On a final note I've noticed that he successfully corrected a number of mistakes made by others and yet no acknowledgement of these mistakes was made.
 

redbaron

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I'm kind of wondering how many people have actually:

- read the entire study that Janus' is citing
- compared the conclusions and discussion from the study to Janus' posts
- gone on to read further, follow-up geological studies by RA Berner et al. regarding impact of Co2


Sometimes I wonder if people who read this subforum are actually interested in what the name implies...

Firstly, you'll never find a source that says, 'anthropogenic global warming will cause a catastrophe'. Just like you'll never find a source that says, 'anthropogenic global warming will NOT cause a catastrophe'.

Why point this out? Because the question Janus' is asking is at best unscientific. At worst, he's deliberately framing his argument to mislead people into thinking that he's correct. "Oh, I asked for you to provide source material that says anthropogenic warming will cause a catastrophe, and you haven't! Clearly you're wrong. I'm being logical and you're not."

Secondly, he's provided only one source. A source which is at best loosely correlated with the things he's purported in this thread. Not to mention that he's claimed the person who conducted the study is in agreement with his points. In this thread I've provided more recent studies involving RA Berner, which demonstrate this isn't the case.

Thirdly, not only has he provided only one study, it's a strictly geological one. There are many areas of study related to the effect of increases of Co2 in the atmosphere: environmental chemistry, ecology and climatology to name a few. If we want to understand why Co2 induced warming is detrimental, we need to understand more than one study in one scientific discipline.

This is the reason no study should ever state or allude directly to the fact that anthropogenic global warming will cause a catastrophe - because no scientist should ever make such a wild claim based on the outcome of ONE study.
 
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The argument is against "unforeseen change" - well that's rather stupid now isn't it? Quite a fun way to attempt to live life - you are basically arguing for the precautionary principle.

The precautionary principle has a lengthy successful track record. Relevant case studies include the Montreal Protocol and NAAQS.

No, carbon dioxide is pumped into greenhouses to increase productivity. You appear to be making things up (again).

Source? One that demonstrates that CO2 creates photosynthetic demand, not visa versa. Again, you have causality issues.

So that's your comeback to me pointing out that you didn't even know that water vapor is the most common greenhouse gas?

You continue to ignore the lack of triangulation. No surprise.

You need to build some credibility because you have none at this point.

Irony much? :rolleyes:

There are no significant problems with the data.

Your observation skills really suck, because you tripped yourself up when even I wasn't expecting it. You see, you began your response quoting a mistake I made before I edited it out (quite trigger happy on your part, since the edit occurred 2 minutes max after my initial post), which was assuming that the data had been adapted and altered by another party. In reality, C. Scotese merely provided the temperature data. However, you attempted to justify the proposed data alteration regardless. Laughable.

I accept your admission of defeat.


As I said before, if you think my claim about carbon dioxide levels being much higher for most of the history of life on this planet is incorrect then feel free to show data that contradicts that claim.

Not all life is equal. What matters are CO2 levels before and after the rise of vascular plants, and CO2 levels before and after the proliferation of CaCO3 exoskeletons in marine organisms. A.K.A. What matters are CO2 levels under conditions most similar to today's. Unless you address this, you're merely deluding yourself.

Didn't I just say the source? You can't look up Mann's hockey stick? It is all over the internet:
Janus said:
The uncertainty is just as great
I'll repeat: Source?

As you can see, the grey shows the uncertainty. The red line at the end actually uses a different data set. He basically combined two datasets to get the scare-looking picture - because the proxy data doesn't show that spike at the end.

Mann's dataset is a hell of a lot more robust than the one you're taking out of context.

Your "point" was irrelevant cherry-picking.

So you admit your lack of understanding and inability to apply my point?

1. Not all that life went extinct
2. The life that evolved after that also evolved under high levels of carbon dioxide

1. 57% of all families and 83% of all genera is a lot of life. Life that went extinct as CO2 levels increased.

2. That life evolved in a niche occupancy vacuum in the relative absence of competition, which was far more instrumental than that gas you have an autoerotic fetish with.


If carbon dioxide alone causes mass extinctions then life wouldn't exist. That's why you are cherry-picking.

You appear to have an odd obsession with cherries...

The end-Permian mass extinction was caused by a large meteor impact, sparking a supervolcanic eruption that lasted for thousands of years, which pumped enough CO2 into the atmosphere to raise CO2 concentrations by 2000 ppm, raise global temperature by 8 degrees Celsius, and filled the impact crater with basalt, creating the Siberian Traps.

It's not unreasonable to believe that such an increase in CO2 would have induced other systemic effects through systemic mechanisms, including the release of methane, a reduction in the Earth's albedo, widespread anoxia, shifts in precipitation patterns, and changes in pH.


There are numerous events that could cause planet-wide extinctions and increase carbon dioxide

That's right. The most devastating extinction of all time occurred after a rather convenient, sudden, suspicious, and well documented rise in CO2.


Perhaps you should join an ST board. They might find such nitpicking interesting.

I'm laughing at the fact that you apparently think that was an insult. What are the real estate prices on Global Temperature Avenue?

That's right, I try to ignore irrelevancies.

Agreed. You automatically categorize things you don't understand as irrelevant.


And neither did I.

That's another straw man on your part.

No, that's yet another dodge on your part. You said temperature was key. I cited the Amazon vs the Sahara to show that your assertion was false because moisture and macronutrient availability are also important factors.

Your quote from the OP, sweetums:

2. Life typically thrives under higher temperatures. For example, compare the equatorial climates to the polar ones.

:applause:

Oh goodie! You are making another scientific claim! Anyone care to take bets on his accuracy? Keep in mind his dismal track record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient

Wow, so it looks like carbon dioxide, a compound necessary for photosynthesis, is actually a macro-nutrient. What a shocker!

If you actually knew anything about the subject then you wouldn't once again make a fool out of yourself.

*yawn*

Again, you ignore the point.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

-the primary macronutrients: nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), potassium (K)
-the three secondary macronutrients: calcium (Ca), sulphur (S), magnesium (Mg)
-the micronutrients/trace minerals: boron (B), chlorine (Cl), manganese (Mn), iron (Fe), zinc (Zn), copper (Cu), molybdenum (Mo), nickel (Ni)

CO2 is distributed relatively homogenously.

Increased carbon dioxide levels reduce the need for water because it reduces water loss.

Plants open their stomata to absorb CO2, but in the process water is lost through transpiration. At higher levels of CO2 they don't need to keep their stomata open as much

So yeah, I expect some more irrelevant response from you because you are incapable of thanking me for repeatedly educating you about basic science.

Again, this doesn't establish evolutionary causality. Lower CO2 levels aren't required for the evolution of the C4 mechanism.

Perhaps someone should step up and make the claim that global warming will be a catastrophe. Until then I can only argue against claims that are commonly made.

I certainly understand why you wouldn't want to put yourself out there though - you haven't had a great track record so far.

o-SASQUATCH-SIGHTINGS-MAP-900.jpg


I demand you justify the existence of sasquatch!

Actually I was talking about rising oceans in that part of the post.

But really, I like this "he said, she said" stuff - really riveting. I'm quite impressed.

4. Ocean acidification is not going to be a problem either - again, look at the historic levels of CO2 and keep in mind the physiology for those climates is largely still in place (yes, this includes corals).

:applause:

Ha! Well if that's your argument then my counter-response is "my data on the internet which you haven't refuted."

Make a specific claim, cite specific data or GTFO.

I'm not going to debate random links you googled and which you probably don't understand.

*
mirror-180.jpg

And as you can see, carbon dioxide levels were much higher during and after the Jurassic than they are now.

Your selective attention seems to be missing the part of the Jurassic where these marine organisms proliferated and sequestered mass amounts of carbon.

Prove it.

This demonstrates that you misunderstand the philosophy of science and the limits of empiricism and the scientific method.

And after that, prove such a correlation isn't related to something more important like temperature differences.

I trust that someone with your purported pedigree and abilities can find these:
Gray J.S. 1997. Marine biodiversity: patterns, threats and conservation needs. Biodiversity Conservation 6:153–75
Chen, C. Y., and Edward G. Durbin. "Effects of pH on the growth and carbon uptake of marine phytoplankton." Marine Ecology-Progress Series 109 (1994): 83-83.
And if you're a fan of tangibooks: http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/life-sciences/marine-biology/marine-biodiversity-patterns-and-processes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_intimidation

Sorry, that might work if you haven't repeatedly be shown to be wrong on fundamental scientific facts.

You don't know what either of those phrases mean, do you? Here, I'll help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_cascade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_vortex

Meaning what exactly?

Huge uncertainty is okay with you if other massively uncertain data agrees with it?

Sounds like an ad hoc excuse on your part to believe shit data.

Meaning that one cannot assess past climate events or future warming potential by examining CO2 alone; One must also examine data on other greenhouse gases. Methane, sulfur dioxide, nitrous oxide, CFCs, sulfur hexaflouride, etc. CO2 alone does not a bastardized attempt of a scientific case make.

The funny thing I actually know how they did that shit. You are the one who should be hopping to it.

Here are some tips for you:

1. They looked at a few fossils and tried to infer the ancient pH levels from them
2. They say they can do it within a tenth of a point on the pH scale

Of course, like Mann's hockey stick this has huge uncertainties involved with it and known problems they can't explain (e.g. divergence problem), but whatever, you said uncertain data is okay with you if other uncertain data agrees with it.

Fantastic fucking science right there.

So in other words, you can't actually critique their methods, results, or conclusions. Gotcha.

In other words, you can't prove your claim.

Thanks for playing.

It's extinct. Do you see it anywhere other than the fossil record? It's pretty self-evident.

Actually you did make that claim. Amusingly you want to simultaneously say you can't prove it but that it wasnt' your claim to begin with, which begs the question of why you said, "And too bad the physiology of the life isn't largely still in place..."

Please quote where I claimed that "we have substantially different biological mechanisms that would make CO2 dangerous to us." ;)

It IS a recent evolutionary development. They only evolved a few million years ago.

Good lord can you get anything fucking right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C4_carbon_fixation#The_evolution_and_advantages_of_the_C4_pathway
C4 carbon fixation has evolved on up to 40 independent occasions in different families of plants, making it a prime example of convergent evolution.[11] This convergence may have been facilitated by the fact that many potential evolutionary pathways to a C4 phenotype exist, many of which involve initial evolutionary steps not directly related to photosynthesis.[12] C4 plants arose around 25 to 32 million years ago[11] during the Oligocene

:applause:

You are wrong again. C4 plants are metabolically much more inefficient than C3 plants. They use far more energy than their older counterparts. You'd know this if you bothered to read the article.

Your reading comprehension is terrible. More efficient at utilizing CO2.

20-25% of global primary productivity is accomplished by C4 plants. That's pretty efficient utilization of CO2 for 5% of Earth's plant biomass and 3% of its known plant species.
:rolleyes:
Collatz, G.J., J.A. Berry, and J.S. Clark. 1998. Effects of climate and atmospheric CO2 partial pressure on the global distribution of C4 grasses: Present, past, and future. Oecologia 114:441–54.
Sage, R.F., D.A. Wedin, and M.-R. Li. 1999. The biogeography of C4 photosynthesis: Patterns and controlling factors. In C4 plant biology, ed. R.F. Sage and R.K. Monson, 313–73. San Diego: Academic Press.

They use the CO2 at night because if they did it during the day they'd lose too much moisture because the CO2 levels are too low to make it worthwhile.

They would've never evolved without low levels of CO2 - and they didn't. For hundreds of millions of years they never showed up - until just a few million years ago after most of the CO2 was sequestered into fossil fuels and limestone.

Nope. Light availability was the driving factor in the evolution of the C4 pathway. It was then facilitated by moisture and CO2 availability.

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/276/1663/1753.full
Seasonal aridity, fire, the activity of large mammalian herbivores and edaphic factors increase the availability of open habitats through the reduction of woody plant cover (Sankaran et al. 2008). Our data are therefore consistent with the hypothesis that these factors raise the likelihood of C4 pathway evolution in the grasses (Sage 2001). The strong statistical dependence of C4 pathway evolution on habitat openness is also consistent with the environmental responses of photosynthesis in extant C3 and C4 grasses: temperature and irradiance are greater in open than shaded environments, especially in the period after a disturbance event (Knapp 1984), which enhances the advantage of C4 photosynthesis for CO2 fixation over the C3 type (Black et al. 1969; Björkman 1971).

Just the modern agriculture system that feeds an extra billion people with less land.

Sounds like modern agriculture has a problem, no?

None of which cando meet our needs.

And who says we need to meet these "needs?"

Cutting down on the quarter of the Earth's land used for grazing and 2/3 of arable land dedicated to livestock feed production would be a good start, imho.


Yep, I'm one of those people that uses facts and logic to create my belief system rather than warping my facts and logic around my beliefs.

So in that case you can empirically justify this statement you made, amirite?:
Janus said:
Creating large inefficiencies in the economy due to regulatory bans and limitations creates poverty.

We have centuries of fossil fuels left.

Fossil fuels with widely known and well documented detrimental side effects that are progressively becoming more difficult and costly to extract. Optimal Foraging Theory much? Competitive Exclusion much? Even... Competitive Exclusion in the arena of fuel sources and technologies?

Just because something isn't "renewable" doesn't mean it should be banned.

The bronze age didn't begin because we ran out of stone.

And you are really starting to bore me. Not sure if I'll be responding to you in the future and if I do I'll have to ignore you constant barrage of fallacies and irrelevancies.

Still waiting on the things you didn't address previously:

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=402554&postcount=50
:elephant:
 

marv

Member
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The base post is not just unscientific and ridiculous, but misleading too. Even the title is misleading. Try not to start science threads refering (impricisley) to fully evolved and proven scientific theories like they were some religious doxy. Your next will be like "Evolution believers - monkey vs Adam"?

edit: ask some corall, they seem to be having the time of their life btw. THRIVING like CRAZY, (providing living environment for 10^9 real bikini bottoms), what is more are fucking EAGER for some more acidification and temp. increase.
 
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