Get out of the Cave!

[Milo]

Right, but don't you see how having an instinct to act against your instincts creates a paradox? If you follow your instinct to act against your instincts, then you are acting instinctually and therefore against your instinct to act against your instincts; conversely, if you act against your instinct to act against your instincts, then you are acting against your instinct and therefore acting instinctually. Ergo, the logic of your theory needs to be reworked so that helpful trolls like me can't set off paradoxes in it.

With the definition of instinct being as it is, you can't use instinct to go against instinct. You can act exactly the same if you are in either mindset, the difference is your attitude towards life. Do you watch parks and recreation ever? Funny show. It's on netflix. The difference between your attitude would be that of Ron Swanson's vs. Andy Dwyers. An example for women characters would be Donna vs. Leslie Knope I suppose would be the closest.
On here I'm more in a Ron Swanson mode. In real life, Andy Dwyer mode. The difference is that one has a serious focus on what he wants and is set in specific ways vs. the other one kind of just living life and doing what they want spontaneously depending on their circumstances (they don't have pride or specific concrete wants and are happy-go-lucky most of the time + lots of energy because you're not always in your own mind or constantly projecting your ideology of the perfect world on reality for you to make it that way, if that makes sense?)

But do instincts cover every situation? For example, consider the equation:

log (x) = 2, solve for x

One's instincts won't help one solve that problem because man's mind never evolved a specific response to logarithmic equations. Therefore, at least one area of life requires a mind. Of course, one might have an instinct to solve the equation and then employ one's mind as a tool to solve it, and I think that such a use is what you intend.

Because of the spontaneousity of the situation (which is that you are challenging me to solve the problem and I instinctually seek acceptance I try to solve the problem for you to think more to me and perhaps improve our social connection). I then would tell you the answer. "100!" Then have a short celebratory moment then immediately move on to talking to you about something else or anything else spontaneous. This would be me guided by instinct then going into my mind for the answer while at the same time letting instinct be aware of the world around me for perhaps other interesting things to happen, or dangers etc.

One's instincts only cover a small range of behaviors, not all of them particularly fulfilling, and the word itself evokes unnecessary biological meanings. Ergo, I suggest that you replace the phrase "act according to our instinct" with "act according to our nature" because the latter phrasing includes the individual's intrinsic passions for art, sport, and science along with Man's natural inclinations toward friendship and love.

We do not instinctually have those passions. They are taught into us. We may eventually have an interest in it because the work is "fun" to the instincts, but they do not work specifically for the fun. They just go and have 100% curiosity, acting instinctually in accordinance perhaps to the social situation of the work. The more you bask in the awareness of this realization, the more you find that your instincts are in favor of socializing and altruism while at the same time being selfish in the way that it feels good to you. You just can't let you mind tell you that something is intrinsically wrong or that there is some ultimate goal out there to accomplish.

Anything else? I'm not dismissive, just curious. I'd very much like an exhaustive list with no gestalt "whole>{part(1)+part(2)+part(3)+... part(n)}" fuzziness.

Instinct = Tendencies, fears
Mind = Information, possible dangers from analysis of cause and effect, sets of rules one might have (standards), justification, language/voice, judgement, guilt, shame, worry, logic, pride, goals, ideologies, preconceptions, + more I can't think of right now.

So are you saying that, in the interest of mental health, one should do what one actually wants to do, and not what one thinks that one wants to do? I see the virtue in so doing; however, how would one know when one "actually" wants to do something?

Yes, and physical health as if you are in the mind too much you may disregard things like hunger. You may think you are fat and so you don't eat the proper amount of food.
The difference between what the mind wants and what the instinct wants is huge. The mind will tell you what it wants by justifying a way in which it will satisfy you. The instinct doesn't actively want something, it just feels like doing something. Like right now I feel like moving around a lot and I have a lot of energy, but my instinct also wants me to help you think the way I think because it's so exciting and fun and much better than the way I thought before. Plus it's winter and I don't know what I'd do to burn off this energy. You have to get a feel for understanding your instinct I suppose. I've even now spontaneously decided to change my profile picture to Andy Dwyer. Lol

What happens when one's instincts lead one astray, as they do in, for example addiction? The cold, objective viewpoint of the mind is necessary to dissect the instinct and identify those portions of it that have become diseased. Furthermore, is one not subject to manipulation if one never examines one's motivations?

Well, if you're addicted to something you can use both your instinct and your mind to become unaddicted or separately. Your instinct can use the mind's abilities to see cause and effect and know that quitting is justified and through the imagery your instinct can also see that it is good. You just have to outweigh the addiction in some way. Total guess there. I have no idea. lol.

The problem is that convincing people in the cave to get out means I have to actively put myself in the cave again in order to convince them back out in their own terms. If I stayed outside of the cave and yelled in telling them what its like they'd just think I'm an idiot or that I've lost my mind.

 

[Milo]

I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

Hey everyone! Come outside in the real sun! Stop looking at the wall!

You're all sad because the wall is boring!

Come out here! You can do anything!

Look! I can run really really fast!

 

[Milo]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

Stop watching TV. Don't believe the hype! It's melting your brain.

The sun is where it's at!

Hey little squirrel. I want to pet you. *Starts chasing squirrel around to exhaustion*

 

[Chad]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

 

[Milo]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

^He gets it! I think.

Just a little confused by mixed messages contained in those emoticons.

Hey! Someone just liked my facebook status!

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

Hey! Someone just liked my facebook status!

Get out of Facebook! It's a cave of it's own!

 

[Chad]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

^He gets it! I think.

Just a little confused by mixed messages contained in those emoticons.

Hey! Someone just liked my facebook status!

At first glance it make my smile. Then the possibility make me wonder what the hell to do next. This confuses me. Then I realize that I hate the sun and deside to put on some shades.

 

[Milo]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

A cave of beautiful women that like my statuses and awkwardly my parents!

 

[TheScornedReflex]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

Are you on Speed?

 

[Milo]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

Nope. High on life! Going to look at cars!

Come join me in the sun!

 

[Cavallier]

That's it! I'm getting out of the cave in order to combine your two caves into one big cave.

 

[Duxwing]

With the definition of instinct being as it is, you can't use instinct to go against instinct. You can act exactly the same if you are in either mindset, the difference is your attitude towards life. Do you watch parks and recreation ever? Funny show. It's on netflix. The difference between your attitude would be that of Ron Swanson's vs. Andy Dwyers. An example for women characters would be Donna vs. Leslie Knope I suppose would be the closest.
On here I'm more in a Ron Swanson mode. In real life, Andy Dwyer mode. The difference is that one has a serious focus on what he wants and is set in specific ways vs. the other one kind of just living life and doing what they want spontaneously depending on their circumstances (they don't have pride or specific concrete wants and are happy-go-lucky most of the time + lots of energy because you're not always in your own mind or constantly projecting your ideology of the perfect world on reality for you to make it that way, if that makes sense?)

I think what you're going for here is "Hakuna Matata": don't let yourself become trapped in unhealthy thought patterns, and, if not using your mind to explore vast abstract worlds or heartwarming memories, focus on enjoying the present moment in whatever way suits you.

I, for example, often like using my imagination, and will from time to time-- in private-- act out the characters in my head, most often for the purpose of writing their adventures down. I find this sort of play most enjoyable despite it not being about reality, and I know my limits with regard to becoming lost in fictional worlds.

Because of the spontaneousity [spontaneity] of the situation (which is that you are challenging me to solve the problem and I instinctually seek acceptance I try to solve the problem for you to think more to me and perhaps improve our social connection). I then would tell you the answer. "100!" Then have a short celebratory moment then immediately move on to talking to you about something else or anything else spontaneous. This would be me guided by instinct then going into my mind for the answer while at the same time letting instinct be aware of the world around me for perhaps other interesting things to happen, or dangers etc.

I think that the body is supposed to work that way: it does stuff, and then, when the "stuff" is done, it looks for other "stuff" to do.

We do not instinctually have those passions. They are taught into us. We may eventually have an interest in it because the work is "fun" to the instincts, but they do not work specifically for the fun. They just go and have 100% curiosity, acting instinctually in accordinance perhaps to the social situation of the work. The more you bask in the awareness of this realization, the more you find that your instincts are in favor of socializing and altruism while at the same time being selfish in the way that it feels good to you. You just can't let you mind tell you that something is intrinsically wrong or that there is some ultimate goal out there to accomplish.

Really? I remember enjoying figuring things out before anyone ever told me about the men who would later become my heroes. And one can always force any social narratives from the mind temporarily and check to see if one's "instincts" or, as the Cynics said, "Nature" agrees with the work.

Instinct = Tendencies, fears
Mind = Information, possible dangers from analysis of cause and effect, sets of rules one might have (standards), justification, language/voice, judgement, guilt, shame, worry, logic, pride, goals, ideologies, preconceptions, + more I can't think of right now.

Paging doctor Freud on line two, paging doctor Freud on line two. I think that you're saying that we ought to kill our egos and superegos and become Ids. The potential for danger in so doing is obvious.

Yes, and physical health as if you are in the mind too much you may disregard things like hunger. You may think you are fat and so you don't eat the proper amount of food.
The difference between what the mind wants and what the instinct wants is huge. The mind will tell you what it wants by justifying a way in which it will satisfy you. The instinct doesn't actively want something, it just feels like doing something. Like right now I feel like moving around a lot and I have a lot of energy, but my instinct also wants me to help you think the way I think because it's so exciting and fun and much better than the way I thought before. Plus it's winter and I don't know what I'd do to burn off this energy. You have to get a feel for understanding your instinct I suppose. I've even now spontaneously decided to change my profile picture to Andy Dwyer. Lol

Why can I not have an instinctual drive to solve a theoretical problem upon encountering the aforementioned? What if I find vast worlds of theory and imagination not dry, but exciting in themselves, all social narratives aside?

Well, if you're addicted to something you can use both your instinct and your mind to become unaddicted or separately. Your instinct can use the mind's abilities to see cause and effect and know that quitting is justified and through the imagery your instinct can also see that it is good. You just have to outweigh the addiction in some way. Total guess there. I have no idea. lol.

(the following is an allegory; imagine that you and I are starships from Star Trek, and that each function is a crewmember on the bridge)

Yikes! Don't leave your theory like that, then! Think on it tonight and see if you can fix this hole.

The problem is that convincing people in the cave to get out means I have to actively put myself in the cave again in order to convince them back out in their own terms. If I stayed outside of the cave and yelled in telling them what its like they'd just think I'm an idiot or that I've lost my mind.

You realize that the allegory to the cave is a fundamentally flawed idea, correct? Being in a cave and having reason spoken to you is the same as not being in a cave and having madness spoken to you. The same applies even to those who believe that they've left the cave. If you want an allegory in reply, then consider the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything: 42. Even if 42 were the answer, then we could never understand it or its significance.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

Re: I'm going to yell at you from outside of the cave

At first glance it make my smile. Then the possibility make me wonder what the hell to do next. This confuses me. Then I realize that I hate the sun and deside to put on some shades.

Ahha! Now were on the same page!

 

[Milo]

That's it! I'm getting out of the cave in order to combine your two caves into one big cave.

Whoa whoa! These threads need to be separate as I have to be a different person to talk in the other thread mentally. It is the difference of being in Plato's cave in his allegory vs. me being outside of the cave in full awareness. When I'm yelling from outside, I am no longer a philosopher. I just act differently because of my expanded consciousness.

 

[Milo]

!

I am sorry but the longer I am out, the harder it is to go back in because it restricts me so much. So painful! Only satisfying in the social sense now

I think what you're going for here is "Hakuna Matata": don't let yourself become trapped in unhealthy thought patterns, and, if not using your mind to explore vast abstract worlds or heartwarming memories, focus on enjoying the present moment in whatever way suits you.

Really? I remember enjoying figuring things out before anyone ever told me about the men who would later become my heroes. And one can always force any social narratives from the mind temporarily and check to see if one's "instincts" or, as the Cynics said, "Nature" agrees with the work.

Hakuna Matata sounds about right minus the heartfelt stuff and abstract worlds. Not even sure what you are talking about when you say heroes?

Paging doctor Freud on line two, paging doctor Freud on line two. I think that you're saying that we ought to kill our egos and superegos and become Ids. The potential for danger in so doing is obvious.

Yes become your Id! Use your ego for security, but never lose track of your Id. Get rid of superego entirely. Only use your ego to pretend you have one if the situation calls for it.

You've cleared it up! The superego is the culprit! Don't ever let your ego become any sort of superego. Just use it sparingly as a tool to secure things if that is what you wish. The superego wants order and calls for perfection. It's all a waste of time and is much less fulfilling than what I am experiencing. The superego used to be me!

Why can I not have an instinctual drive to solve a theoretical problem upon encountering the aforementioned? What if I find vast worlds of theory and imagination not dry, but exciting in themselves, all social narratives aside?

I just don't think that is normal. If you have an "Id" goal behind learning that, then maybe its normal. It might even be normal for everyone to crave learning until they've figured out the answers to their purpose. Is this something you are maybe seeking behind your problem solving?

You realize that the allegory to the cave is a fundamentally flawed idea, correct? Being in a cave and having reason spoken to you is the same as not being in a cave and having madness spoken to you. The same applies even to those who believe that they've left the cave. If you want an allegory in reply, then consider the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything: 42. Even if 42 were the answer, then we could never understand it or its significance.

It is not what is being spoken to you. It is the mode in which you have your brain in. The puppeteers represent the media, politics, and all the other moral influences on one. You need to fully understand what a Form is and how it relates to language and then to ideas and how that can restrict one's mind and actions. Imprisonment by disillusionment. Free your mind and the world will be fun. Sex will be interesting again! You won't be trapped in a world of repeating Forms labeled by your mind seeing the same thing every day. Every experience becomes unique!

As for the addiction thing. My theory isn't meant for solving all problems. It is meant to free one from one's own mental restrictions that aren't real.

 

[Duxwing]

Re: !

I am sorry but the longer I am out, the harder it is to go back in because it restricts me so much. So painful! Only satisfying in the social sense now.

The debate isn't over yet, so don't get too high on victory.

Hakuna Matata sounds about right minus the heartfelt stuff and abstract worlds.

Why are memories and abstractions necessarily wrong?

Not even sure what you are talking about when you say heroes?

When I was little, I was outraged by the injustice that I found around me: the caprice of schoolyard authority, the cruelty of my schoolmates unto each other and unto me, and later, the foolishness of religion. I implicitly swore that I would develop a grand unified theory of everything-- oh my, I'm tearing up as I write this-- that I would solve every injustice by logic derived from fundamental, self-evident axioms and then stand up resolute to fix the world.

So when I saw Locke, Hobbes, and Voltaire, I saw part of what I wanted to be: the philosopher who finally solved all the big, thorny ethical problems once and for all. And I looked up to Voltaire especially: he braved social criticism, prison, and the French Revolution to put his ideas through.

Yes become your Id! Use your ego for security, but never lose track of your Id. Get rid of superego entirely. Only use your ego to pretend you have one if the situation calls for it.

You've cleared it up! The superego is the culprit! Don't ever let your ego become any sort of superego. Just use it sparingly as a tool to secure things if that is what you wish. The superego wants order and calls for perfection. It's all a waste of time and is much less fulfilling than what I am experiencing. The superego used to be me!

Order and perfection? I love order and perfection. It's beautiful to me.

I just don't think that is normal. If you have an "Id" goal behind learning that, then maybe its normal. It might even be normal for everyone to crave learning until they've figured out the answers to their purpose. Is this something you are maybe seeking behind your problem solving?

When I think of solving a grand riddle, before my mind's eye appears the image of a boy, no older than nine or eight, viewed from above and behind, standing on a cloud, and wearing flowing white robes that are just a tad too big for him. He's stepping toward two great white wooden doors partly covered by the cloud and swung slightly ajar. Behind the doors awaits a bright, shining light, and there the image ends. I want to discover, Milo, and I don't know why.

It is not what is being spoken to you. It is the mode in which you have your brain in. The puppeteers represent the media, politics, and all the other moral influences on one. You need to fully understand what a Form is and how it relates to language and then to ideas and how that can restrict one's mind and actions. Imprisonment by disillusionment. Free your mind and the world will be fun. Sex will be interesting again! You won't be trapped in a world of repeating Forms labeled by your mind seeing the same thing every day. Every experience becomes unique!

Right, right, don't let yourself be influenced by others. Stay true to yourself.

As for the addiction thing. My theory isn't meant for solving all problems. It is meant to free one from one's own mental restrictions that aren't real.

Ah, OK, then.

-Duxwing

 

[Milo]

The debate isn't over yet, so don't get too high on victory.

I don't feel good from victory. I enjoy the social aspect and and excitement of the uniqueness of the conversation.

Why are memories and abstractions necessarily wrong?

They aren't. They are only bad if one is immursed in them for too long. Takes a toll on the mind and steals one from the enjoyment of reality.

When I was little, I was outraged by the injustice that I found around me: the caprice of schoolyard authority, the cruelty of my schoolmates unto each other and unto me, and later, the foolishness of religion. I implicitly swore that I would develop a grand unified theory of everything-- oh my, I'm tearing up as I write this-- that I would solve every injustice by logic derived from fundamental, self-evident axioms and then stand up resolute to fix the world.

I was also. I never wished to find some sort of moral code though. I still believed in god. The biggest difference between who I was before this transformation and now is that I don't take life so seriously.

Order and perfection? I love order and perfection. It's beautiful to me.

Superego!

When I think of solving a grand riddle, before my mind's eye appears the image of a boy, no older than nine or eight, viewed from above and behind, standing on a cloud, and wearing flowing white robes that are just a tad too big for him. He's stepping toward two great white wooden doors partly covered by the cloud and swung slightly ajar. Behind the doors awaits a bright, shining light, and there the image ends. I want to discover, Milo, and I don't know why.

I used to be able to imagine things like that, but now that is way too much mental processing. How old are you anyways? Don't tell me you are only 9?

Right, right, don't let yourself be influenced by others. Stay true to yourself.

Make sure it's not your superego self!

 

[Milo]

If you would like to hear more of me screaming from outside of the cave, follow me on twitter! But am I allowed to tell you my twitter account on here? Hmmm

 

[Milo]

Ahhh man you guys are missing the best tweets. I'm on a roll!

 

[Duxwing]

I don't feel good from victory. I enjoy the social aspect and and excitement of the uniqueness of the conversation.

I love a good victory.

They aren't. They are only bad if one is immursed in them for too long. Takes a toll on the mind and steals one from the enjoyment of reality.

Quite right, all things in moderation.

I was also. I never wished to find some sort of moral code though. I still believed in god. The biggest difference between who I was before this transformation and now is that I don't take life so seriously.

Never forget the seriousness of a child at play.

Superego!

So what?

I used to be able to imagine things like that, but now that is way too much mental processing. How old are you anyways? Don't tell me you are only 9?

I can still imagine things like that, and I still do. I love my imagination, though it tortures and terrorizes me sometimes. And no, I'm 16, not 9.

Make sure it's not your superego self!

Why? I enjoy order and perfection, it feels so... right, like a sock that fits my foot perfectly.

-Duxwing

 

[7even]

So are you saying stop chasing the cheese, and actually physically leave the cave? Drop out of Western-civilization? Do not follow the path of wanting to achieve wealth, fame, or power? What if not chasing the cheese puts you in a bad position because everyone else is?

Or are you saying be aware one is chasing the cheese, thus 'mentally' leave the cave, and that the cheese will not fulfill happiness, and so be internally content while on this cheesy path. What if what you're conditioned to do is necessary for comfort?

Because, this hypothetical cheese path is a path people are more or less inclined to take to live in a world that is... cheesy. The path is made tempting not because of happiness, but because of the idea of security and a feeling of certainty of the future.

Unless basically you're saying that don't let subjective ideas, conceptions etc. (i.e. illusions) of the external influence or be necessary for your internal happiness; all you require are your instincts for basically what you've listed above (sex, food etc.) using the mind just as a tool to achieving and sustaining those? Everything else we want is an illusion?

How do you know what you want, surely what you think you want will always be ego-based?

So whatever you 'think' (mind-based) you want, is an illusion?

Does your environment matter? Where you are? What you're doing?

Isn't whatever you want, always going to be what you think you want?

Without mind, your instincts won't be of much use other than to survive.

 

[Artsu Tharaz]

nigga i'm batman

 

[Cherry Cola]

1. Sexual satisfaction (Masturbation is sufficient) - Only do it when you feel the urge and don't use porn because that can cause mental imbalance from too much dopamine being converted into norepinepherin that can be converted into epinepherin (adrenaline) and increase cortisol which increases stress if there is too much norepinepherin to convert back.

I just want to point out that low cortisol levels are just as associated with stress as high ones.

 

[Reluctantly]

So are you saying stop chasing the cheese, and actually physically leave the cave? Drop out of Western-civilization? Do not follow the path of wanting to achieve wealth, fame, or power? What if not chasing the cheese puts you in a bad position because everyone else is?

Or are you saying be aware one is chasing the cheese, thus 'mentally' leave the cave, and that the cheese will not fulfill happiness, and so be internally content while on this cheesy path. What if what you're conditioned to do is necessary for comfort?

Because, this hypothetical cheese path is a path people are more or less inclined to take to live in a world that is... cheesy. The path is made tempting not because of happiness, but because of the idea of security and a feeling of certainty of the future.

Unless basically you're saying that don't let subjective ideas, conceptions etc. (i.e. illusions) of the external influence or be necessary for your internal happiness; all you require are your instincts for basically what you've listed above (sex, food etc.) using the mind just as a tool to achieving and sustaining those? Everything else we want is an illusion?

How do you know what you want, surely what you think you want will always be ego-based?

So whatever you 'think' (mind-based) you want, is an illusion?

Does your environment matter? Where you are? What you're doing?

Isn't whatever you want, always going to be what you think you want?

Without mind, your instincts won't be of much use other than to survive.

Hehe. Is that like saying rats like going after cheese, so if you take it away from them, they have nothing to live for?

 

[7even]

Hehe. Is that like saying rats like going after cheese, so if you take it away from them, they have nothing to live for?

Tom & Jerry

 

[Milo]

Okay, the cheese is your ideas of things. You are chasing an illusion which is your idea of what something will be like when you get it. The only thing wrong is that it is not. You did all that work for a reward that you get bored of.

It is all to live in the present, outside of the world of ideas and language. Only go into that when you actually need to or want to. Not out of fear of losing something or from influences making you think you want it. The only influence I have is my current state unless I need to use my ego to keep track of really important things like future availability of food.

The media scares us into thinking our resources are depleting. This makes us afraid so that we stock up. Outside influences like your friends or role models show you they are happy doing what they do (even though it might be them putting a face on) so you try and chase their dreams only to find that your expectations of how it would be when you got there ruined it.

Happiness is of the mind which you are in control of. Realize how much control you really have over your own state and you will become freer than you've ever imagined possible.

Also, as a result of me expressing my freedom and not caring if I got banned, I was banned. But, I was testing my limits at the time (part of my overall agenda). Lol